So what does science actually say about abortion? Is it really murder?

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Anonymous Sat Jun 29 06:20:28 2019 No.10765293 [Reply] [Original]

So what does science actually say about abortion? Is it really murder?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 06:21:23 2019 No.10765297 File: 303 KB, 642x705, 1527438056534.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Life begins at conception. Yes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 06:22:32 2019 No.10765300 For the first couple of weeks the fetus is seen as an extra organ and if needed be removed as soon as possible. When it starts to develop a brain of its own it soon begins to be seen as another individual. Aborting by then is not optimal.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 06:24:53 2019 No.10765304 >>10765300 >For the first couple of weeks the fetus is seen as an extra organ By whom?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 06:34:09 2019 No.10765313 >>10765293 Science doesn’t make any claims about ethics, but the embryo is distinct from the mother in every possible sense and I don’t care about “bodily autonomy”, so it should be illegal as far as I’m concerned.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:00:35 2019 No.10765340 >>10765297 shut up, murderer. it begins as a sparkle in the eyes of the rapist.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:01:26 2019 No.10765341
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>>10765293
No, only sapient, self-aware creatures can be "murdered". The gold standard is the so-called Mirror Test: any creature that cannot recognize its reflection and groom itself using a mirror, can freely be slaughtered for the benefit of mankind.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:08:47 2019 No.10765350 >>10765293 This is a question for a philosopher, I'm afraid.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:10:22 2019 No.10765351 >>10765293 murder /ˈməːdə/ noun 1. the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Meaning its only murder if the law says it is illigal to do abortion

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:11:34 2019 No.10765353

>>10765341
>No, only sapient, self-aware creatures can be "murdered".

Prove it.

>The gold standard is the so-called Mirror Test

Useless pseudoscience for measuring self-awareness.
Are you aware that under this definition, fucking ants can be murdered?

>can freely be slaughtered for the benefit of mankind.

So we can’t murder ants but we can murder babies. Got it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:24:24 2019 No.10765374 >>10765293 Abortion should not be seen as an ethic problem but a policy issue that should be either encouraged or forbidden according to one's nation needs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:39:55 2019 No.10765389 >>10765304 By the mom's immune system

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:41:25 2019 No.10765391 >>10765293 no higher brain -> no mind -> no victim -> no crime this is not a hard concept to grasp, embryo is a thing rather than a being

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:43:41 2019 No.10765395 >>10765293 It's a parasite until late in pregnancy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:54:12 2019 No.10765404 File: 32 KB, 512x512, 1502558481466.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10765300 bullshit >>10765341 based >>10765353 cope >>10765391 cope >>10765395 bullshit

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:57:54 2019 No.10765411

I guess objectively speaking if taking no action in the case of a pregnancy a person will likely be born and develop with all the rights we would give them, performing an abortion would essentially pre-emptively murder this person that likely would exist if you did nothing.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 07:59:26 2019 No.10765414

>>10765391
killing people who are unconscious isn't ok you retard.
the only time that killing someone who is unconcious can be ok is when that person is extremely unlikely ever to be conscious in the future like deep coma victims. that is literally the criteria doctors use to evaluate whether it is acceptable to turn off someone's life support : how likely they are to be conscious in the future.

Obviously foetuses, embryo's and zygotes are all quite likely to be conscious in the future so no it is not acceptable to kill them.

this isn't difficult to understand.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:00:42 2019 No.10765420 >>10765411 So would a condom.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:01:02 2019 No.10765421 >>10765411 by the same logic putting on a condom during sex is murder only actual, not potential, people deserve right to life

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:02:21 2019 No.10765423 >>10765414 I am not talking about consciousness but about MIND you retard unconscious person still has a mind encoded in their brain neural networks

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:02:31 2019 No.10765424 >>10765420 >>10765421 Killing a zygote is not the same as preventing its existence.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:06:11 2019 No.10765431 >>10765424 The consequences are exactly the same.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:08:20 2019 No.10765434 >>10765423 >unconscious person still has a mind and that is what gives them value, otherwise they are rightfully declared braindead and used for organ donations same logic should apply to embryos and foetuses until they develop a brain

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:14:40 2019 No.10765446

>>10765420
Yeah, these things are a quite a few degrees removed from ending a person's life, it all comes down to what you are comfortable with. The social consequences of an abortion is really not the same as cold blooded murder and putting on a condom is not really the same as abortion. But I think on an objective level, when it comes to abortions, you are certainly wilfully ending a life.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:15:10 2019 No.10765447 >>10765431 No, they aren't. Existence is achieved in one scenario.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:16:44 2019 No.10765453 >>10765424 >>10765446 >a zygote >a person Nope. Just a bunch of cells, no brain.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:21:13 2019 No.10765460 >>10765453 Depends how you define personhood, but a zygote is definitely a human.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:24:54 2019 No.10765462 >>10765460 Definitely not at zygote. It's still an intact sperm cell located inside an intact egg cell.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:27:51 2019 No.10765467 >>10765462 No? Two intact gametes don't make up a zygote. A zygote is formed through their merging.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:30:53 2019 No.10765470

Science has no say on morals or values and anybody who tells you otherwise is an idiot or a deceiver.

Regardless, anti-abortion and pro-abortion both rely on the fallacious assertion that human life arbitrarily gains value at some distinct point. There is no reason this would be the case but people argue as if it is. The obvious answer is that human life doed not inherently have value and one must provide evidence to prove otherwise.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:37:36 2019 No.10765482 >>10765341 I read that some ants apparently can pass the test, so you better watch your step

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:39:43 2019 No.10765488 >>10765404 Not an argument. >>10765391 So abortion becomes murder in the second trimester, or you’re delusional.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 08:56:01 2019 No.10765525 >>10765293 A fetus is a developing human that is alive Murder is the termination of a living human Abortion terminates a fetus Abortion is therefore murder.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:02:00 2019 No.10765536 >>10765297 The Bible says life begins when you take your first breath. Personally, I think the bible is retarded and I much prefer the /sci/ meme of "life begins after grad school".

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:05:36 2019 No.10765544 >>10765525 /thread

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:08:34 2019 No.10765550 >>10765525 >Implying bleeding is murder

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:11:37 2019 No.10765558

>>10765293
Every cream pie is a human life, every good conservative Christian knows that. I don’t care that an embryo at 4 weeks does not have any resemblance to a human. I also don’t care that the embryo hasn’t yet divided into a fetus and amniotic sack at this point making no distinction between where the babies body starts and the mother’s body ends. It’s a human goddamn life.

Now, as a conservative I also think that the fetus doesn’t deserve a ssn number, isn’t claimable as a dependant until it’s born and it can’t be covered under its own life insurance policy. But don’t be fooled, I consider that ball of cells just as Human as a full grown adult.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:12:44 2019 No.10765562 >>10765558 Liberals are so cringe...

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:19:41 2019 No.10765570

>>10765293
A fetus is comparable to an extra organ or a parasite until it is able to survive outside the womb. Therefore the legality of abortion should be entirely dependent on whether or not the fetus could survive outside the womb at that stage.
If the fetus can't survive outside the womb, it is not yet distinguishable from an extra organ, and it is morally sound to flush the thing. As soon as it is developed enough to survive outside the womb, it has become a baby and is too late to terminate.
Yes, whether a fetus can survive outside the womb at any particular stage IS entirely dependent on the progress of medical science thus far. When medical science advances far enough that an embro of only a few thousand cells can be successfully carried to term in an external medical apparatus completely independent of the original mother, abortion would at that point be effectively banned entirely.

Until then though, there's no argument people typically make against abortion that isn't contradicted by their stance on other issues, because conservatives in America like to lie about sensational issues so that the voterbase doesn't notice them taking bribes and committing election fraud to stay in office while accusing their opponents of taking bribes and committing election fraud.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:20:48 2019 No.10765573 >>10765562 Of course they are. Liberals and conservatives are the same style of fag-cucks as fan boys who fight over coke and Pepsi or nvidia vs intel, Xbox vs playstation, etc... So, they’re all just NPC fanboys

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:28:16 2019 No.10765584 File: 49 KB, 480x371, 1478759011972.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10765573

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:29:53 2019 No.10765586 >>10765550 Blood isn’t people.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:30:27 2019 No.10765588 >>10765570 >A fetus is comparable to an extra organ or a parasite until it is able to survive outside the womb. No, a fetus is a child, you pseudo-intellectual sadist.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:31:00 2019 No.10765589 >>10765447 existence is only achieved when higher brain begins to exhibit coherent activity

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:32:02 2019 No.10765591 >>10765460 zygote is human, but it is not a human

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:34:23 2019 No.10765596 >>10765525 >Murder is the termination of a living >human Nope, higher brain death is the currently accepted legal and medical criterion of a death of a person. Since early foetuses have no brain developed yet, they cannot be murdered by definition.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:35:53 2019 No.10765602 >>10765588 It's not a child until it can be alive while not biologically integrated into it's mother.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:36:04 2019 No.10765603 >>10765589 t. doesn't know what the word "existence" means.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:36:57 2019 No.10765605
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You're in a fertility clinic. Why isn't important. The fire alarm goes off. You run for the exit. As you run down this hallway, you hear a child screaming from behind a door. You throw open the door and find a five-year-old child crying for help. They're in one corner of the room. In the other corner, you spot a frozen container labeled "1000 Viable Human Embryos, ready to be implanted into their mothers." The smoke is rising. You start to choke. You know you can grab one or the other, but not both before you succumb to smoke inhalation and die, saving no one.

Do you A) save the child, or B) save the thousand embryos? There is no "C." "C" means you all die.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:37:58 2019 No.10765608 >>10765586 barely visible blob of cells is not people either

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:37:59 2019 No.10765607 >>10765602 Everyone can make their own definitions, anon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:41:37 2019 No.10765614 >>10765605 Terrible picture and terrible argument.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:42:52 2019 No.10765620 >>10765614 not an argument

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:43:49 2019 No.10765622 >>10765293 science says that fetuses feel pain

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:44:03 2019 No.10765623

>>10765607
Exactly, so if your definition is arbitrary then it should clearly be tossed out.
Does your definition imply that a cluster of a thousand or so cells is equivalent to a human child? Discard that definition, it's total nonsense.
My definition clearly states that in order to be considered a baby, the fetus has to be an organism that can exist independently from the mother and continue to develop. You wouldn't call a thing which has a parasitic relationship to it's mother a "baby" or a "child", not until it develops enough to not have to have that parasitic link to survive.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:44:19 2019 No.10765624

>>10765620
The picture is terrible because it conflates the adult version of the organism (like tree) with the organism itself.
Your argument is terrible because it implies that the definition of a person is determined by your momentary empathetic reaction to it in a moment of crisis.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:46:35 2019 No.10765626

>>10765623
>You wouldn't call a thing which has a parasitic relationship to it's mother a "baby"
What else would you call it? Are you implying that children are somehow not dependent on their mothers for years after their birth? How is that also not parasitic?

>Does your definition imply that a cluster of a thousand or so cells is equivalent to a human child?
No, my definition considers a zygote a human since it has all the genetic information needed to become one and is simply the earliest developmental stage of the organism.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:47:32 2019 No.10765627
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Brain death is the currently accepted medical, ethical and legal definition of a death of a human being.

It makes lots of sense to apply the same logic to the birth of a person. Hence "brain birth" is when a person begins to exist.

Now I am not going to claim when exactly that occurs, but I am sure it is neither at conception, nor at delivery, but somewhere in between.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:48:30 2019 No.10765628

If an embryo at any stage of development is a human person, are miscarriages manslaughter? What about induced miscarriages?
If a woman doesn't know she's pregnant and drinks a ton of alcohol and has a miscarriage, should she be arrested and charged with manslaughter?
If a woman doesn't yet appear outwardly pregnant, and a man punches her directly in the womb and unknowingly causes her to later have a miscarriage, should that man be arrested and charged with manslaughter?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:48:41 2019 No.10765629 >>10765622 >science says that fetuses feel pain yes, but not until 5th month of pregnancy when cortex and thalamocortical connections form

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:50:13 2019 No.10765634 >>10765624 it is not a momentary reaction as you can take as much time as you want to think about the scenario, and the decision is still the same

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:51:13 2019 No.10765636 >>10765623 siamese twins are often dependent on each other, yet are considered two people if they have two heads

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:51:59 2019 No.10765638

>>10765297
>tridentine mass
>roman collar
Based desu. I pray to God that I never have to deal with the possibility of fathering a child when I'm not ready. I'm scared anon, and I hope never to make the decisions that lead to those events unfolding. Pray for me please.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:53:57 2019 No.10765639

>>10765626
A fetus. A fetus is what you call the thing that is before a baby and before a child.
>How is that also not parasitic?
Google what parasitic actually means.

>my definition considers a zygote a human
Yeah and a zygote is clearly not a human so your definition should be discarded.
It's a zygote, it does not resemble a baby in the slightest. It is an amorphous mass of cells with no heartbeat nor higher brain function. A zygote is made of human cells, but is not yet A human.
You are trash man.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:54:01 2019 No.10765640 >>10765634 Sure, and if you'd make me pick between a kitten or a baby snake, or between a puppy and an ant I would always pick the mammal. Does that prove snakes and ants aren't alive?

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:55:50 2019 No.10765642

>>10765639
>Google what parasitic actually means.
I don't need to google the definition of simple words. How is the relationship between a mother and a 1 month old baby not parasitic?
>Yeah and a zygote is clearly not a human so your definition should be discarded.
It's not a developed human, but still a human.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:57:40 2019 No.10765645 >>10765640 So what you're saying is that a viable fetus is meaningfully distinct in it's human-ness from a live child, and this distinction is comparable to the difference between mammals and non-mammals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:58:39 2019 No.10765646 >>10765645 No, I'm saying that your argument is shit. Stop embarrassing yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 09:59:08 2019 No.10765647 >>10765640 Nobody thinks that embryos and feotuses are not alive. But they are not people. You saving a single child over a thousand, or even a million embryos, proves that there is a qualitative difference here that you are in denial about.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:00:51 2019 No.10765650 >>10765646 I'm not the guy who posted that image or has been talking to you before that post, I'm just pointing out the conclusions that your post necessarily comes to, idiot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:01:07 2019 No.10765651 >>10765640 you are not saving the child just because it is more cute, and you know it

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:06:04 2019 No.10765660

>>10765642
You clearly do need to google what a parasite is if you're too retarded to understand the difference between a parasite that cannot be removed and stay alive and an externally dependent child that is in no way biologically integrated into its mother.

If an amorphous mass of cells that could maybe become a human individual if it's left inside of it's mother long enough is no more a human individual than a tree in the forest is to be considered a stack of paper just because it w might become one eventually if left in a paper mill long enough.
Potential to become a human isn't quantifiable humanity until it successfully becomes a human.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:06:13 2019 No.10765661

>>10765647
>Nobody thinks that embryos and feotuses are not alive.
The guy I replied to thinks that.
>>10765650
And I'm saying that your argument is shit.
>>10765651
No, I'm saving the child because I have a bigger empathetic reaction to it, the same I would have to my own child over a stranger child or towards a mammal over an insect.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:07:15 2019 No.10765663 >>10765660 So you think that a parasite has to be inside your body to be parasitic? Follow your own advice and look up the definition before replying to me again.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:07:34 2019 No.10765665

>>10765636
Maybe that has something to do with how both twins have separate higher brain function. Really curious that, how it's not the shape of your body or your heartbeat that determine whether you're a person, that it's whether or not you have distinct and coherent higher brain function.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:09:15 2019 No.10765671 Murder or not, abortion is good for society and good for taxpayers

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:12:21 2019 No.10765679

>>10765663
Babies don't structurally adapt to biologically integrate themselves into their mothers bodies you absolute retard.
A baby can't feed itself without somebody helping it, a fetus can't feed itself without being biologically integrated into it's mother's body.
Your baby can exist in a crib 5 feet away from you, a fetus can't exist detached from your body and continue to be alive.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:13:28 2019 No.10765680 >>10765661 >The guy I replied to thinks that. I am that guy and no, they are alive in the same sense that a bug is alive, but they are not persons with right to life and all that jazz

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:13:48 2019 No.10765681 >>10765661 My argument can't be shit because I didn't make any arguments. I simply stated the things your post implies given the stupid shit you said.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:14:02 2019 No.10765682 >>10765679 That doesn't mean it's not parasitic, you fucking retard. Are you seriously changing your argument just because you didn't know what "parasitic" meant?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:14:39 2019 No.10765684 >>10765661 >I'm saving the child because I have a bigger empathetic reaction to it And that is for a very good reason.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:16:29 2019 No.10765686

>>10765680
It is still a human, however.
How are you determining if it has the right to life, then? The mother's opinion?
>>10765681
And your argument is shit. I never implied that. You took my comparison to mean things I never meant.
>>10765684
Still meaningless to the argument at hand, however.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:17:48 2019 No.10765688 Abortion is murder. Sometimes murder is okay. /thread Don't forget all the conservatives who support capital punishment

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:17:59 2019 No.10765690 >>10765686 >I said things that I didn't mean to say and that's your fault Ok kid

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:19:24 2019 No.10765693

>>10765690
I gave an example in which my empathetic reaction differs by different organisms, and yet that difference does not imply that those organisms are less or more alive than one another.
You took that to mean some sort of equivalence in worth which I did not mean.

Go be a brainlet somewhere else.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:21:58 2019 No.10765699 >>10765686 >It is still a human, however. >How are you determining if it has the right to life, then? The mother's opinion? It is human, it is not a human. I believe it should depend on whether it has higher brain with mind developed, or not.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:23:26 2019 No.10765704 >>10765699 So 1 month old babies are also not humans?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:23:27 2019 No.10765703 >>10765686 >Still meaningless to the argument at hand, however. Why, if not for our empathetic reactions, then what should we base the right to life on, this is an ethical question after all

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:24:52 2019 No.10765708 >>10765703 On scientific definitions. If a zygote is alive then a mother's opinion should be meaningless and abortion is murder. If a zygote is somehow not a human and/or not alive, then the mother should do whatever she wants with it, I suppose.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:26:07 2019 No.10765711 >>10765704 1 month old babies have well developed higher brains already

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:26:14 2019 No.10765712

>>10765682
I'm talking about biological parasitism, to which fetuses are comparable, you fucking tool. You can call a 25 year old who still lives with his parents and pays no rent a "parasite" if you want but the colloquial usage of the term has no bearing on this discussion. Quit trying to obfuscate the truth.
A parasite necessarily exists in or on its host and necessarily is in some way integrated into it's hosts biological systems in order to accommodate this type of existence.
A baby does not exist in or on its mother, a baby can be as far away from it's mother as you want and still not die. A baby does not have to be biologically integrated with its mother in order to continue to be alive.
A fetus does exist in or on its mother, and cannot be separated without its death. A fetus is biologically integrated into its mother, that is how it feeds.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:27:54 2019 No.10765715 >>10765605 Literally the trolley problem.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:29:10 2019 No.10765719

>>10765708
This is not a scientific question, science alone cannot answer moral questions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

Also, literally nobody thinks that zygote is not alive or not human. It is both, and yet does not deserve a right to life, because being alive and human is not sufficient. See braindead but biologically alive patients, that are nevertheless disconnected from life support and used for organs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:30:30 2019 No.10765722 >>10765605 The embryos have more potential wellbeing, so obviously them. Are you stupid or something?

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:30:30 2019 No.10765723

>>10765693
You directly compare the choice between a human child and a bunch of fetuses to the choice between a mammal baby and a non-mammal baby, and state that obviously you would choose the mammal baby.
Given that, and the context of the discussion your post was a part of, there is no alternate conclusion one can come to other than that your post is implying that a thousand fetuses aren't human on the same level that a child is human.
Obviously this is not what you were trying to say, but you wrote your post all retarded like, so it is what you ended up saying.

You might want to polish your critical thinking skills just a bit before calling other people stupid.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:30:49 2019 No.10765725 >>10765300 For the first couple weeks, its not a fetus

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:31:20 2019 No.10765726

>>10765711
>well developed
By what metric?
>>10765719
>and yet does not deserve a right to life
So if I were to assault a pregnant woman and cause her to miscarriage, why am I still accused of murder?

Unless your argument is that a woman gets to decide a baby's right to life, you make no sense.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:32:56 2019 No.10765728

>>10765723
No, my point was that my empathetic reaction proves nothing, as it differs for many different reasons and it proves nothing.

Let me help you out, you fucking illiterate.
This >>10765605 is the argument I replied to with this comment:
>Your argument is terrible because it implies that the definition of a person is determined by your momentary empathetic reaction to it in a moment of crisis.

If you're still confused by what I meant, then I suggest taking a plunge off a bridge.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:34:00 2019 No.10765729

>>10765726
>By what metric?
brainwaves or other neural correlates of consciousness, I dont know exactly as I am not a foetal neurologist

>>10765726
>So if I were to assault a pregnant woman and cause her to miscarriage, why am I still accused of murder?
In most jurisdictions you are not.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:34:03 2019 No.10765730 >>10765712 Yes, biological parasitism. A mother breastfeeds her baby and gets no energy in return, therefore the baby is parasitic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:35:36 2019 No.10765735 >>10765728 Your empathetic reaction is the correct one and happens for a reason, it is your conscience speaking. The rest is stupid rationalization on your part.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:35:42 2019 No.10765736 >>10765729 >brainwaves or other neural correlates of consciousness, A baby's brainwaves are more similar to a sleeping adult than a conscious adult. >In most jurisdictions you are not. Source?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:36:44 2019 No.10765737 >>10765735 I never said it's illogical, I said it's meaningless in the context of this conversation.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:39:04 2019 No.10765741

>>10765736
>A baby's brainwaves are more similar to a sleeping adult than a conscious adult.

Consciousness exists during sleep, never heard of dreaming? Also, both babies and late term foetuses have well developed sleep cycles already do do spend at least some time awake.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:39:26 2019 No.10765743 >>10765293 relative to the size of the umbilical cord, that fetus is probably 6 or 7 months along. virtually no one aborts at that stage unless the kid is gonna come out 90% dead and potentially take the mother with him

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:40:06 2019 No.10765745 >>10765737 Quite the contrary, I cannot think of a more relevant thing to discuss in the context of a right to life of some entities than empathy

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:40:06 2019 No.10765746
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I think the question boils down to is the mother growing an embryo, or is an embryo growing off the mother.

Since the mother cannot grow an embryo by herself (requires male sperm) she cannot be willfully growing the embryo. She willfully takes the sperm, and when the sperm and her organ meet, something different from both man and woman begins to grow. She cant choose to starve the embryo once it's begun to grow, and once it has fed off her enough, it leaves her/her body ejects it.

I have yet to see this argument made in public debate, but it's more ironclad than typical religious arguments.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:40:29 2019 No.10765749 >>10765588 >pseudo-intellectual you're parroting the talking-points of Bubba in the everglades. not really the hallmark sign of an intellectual.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:40:31 2019 No.10765750

>>10765730
Ignoring the fact that a baby being breastfed is clearly a different situation from a fetus in the womb even just by virtue of the fact that a different woman who is not the baby's mother can breastfeed it,
A baby need not be breastfed to survive. A fetus cannot exist outside of it's mother's womb.

I really do not see how it is so hard for you to understand that babies and fetuses are different things.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:41:31 2019 No.10765754 >>10765746 it is 100% growing off of the mother. where do you think the biomass to build organs and tissue comes from?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:44:58 2019 No.10765763 >>10765745 So if I have more empathy towards my own children then that means other children have less right to life than my own?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:45:44 2019 No.10765765 >>10765297 >life no such thing

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:45:59 2019 No.10765768 >>10765750 A baby is still parasitic, however. Whether to his own mother or another woman, the relationship is still parasitic. Seriously, are you fucking retarded or what?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:46:45 2019 No.10765769 >>10765735 literally 'feels before reals' spoken unironically

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:47:05 2019 No.10765770 >>10765749 I'm pretty sure that most of the people that have abortions are ghetto trash and other poor uneducated people.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:49:17 2019 No.10765777

>>10765768
It isn't a part of the mother's body anymore, however. If a baby is being mistreated or abused by the parents, the state has the ability to take it away and put it in a new home. A fetus' continued existence hinges on taking nutrients and energy from the mother.

Look at it this way - even if someone is dying in a car accident and needs a new organ to survive, it is illegal to take another person's organ to save a separate human life. Likewise, even if a person is already dead, if they didn't give consent to have their organs harvested to save other people, then the state cannot take them. Bodily autonomy is concretely inscribed in the basic law of the land in Western society - the only places that believe it's okay to violate that are authoritarian dictatorships like China and North Korea

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:49:21 2019 No.10765778

>>10765293

Science has no consistent stance on the status of Abortion. All science has proven is that external stress and malnutrition can dramatically deteriorate the quality of the fetus and its life once it has emerged from the womb. Wether or not it is "aware" is up for debate.

That being said if science could prove the fetus is aware then everyone is in a conundrum. Since stress and malnutrition can deteriorate their quality of life it mean that hundreds of millions of aware fetuses are living in inhumane conditions. It would mean stressing out pregnant women would be a crime and special programs would have to specifically put in place to guarantee the quality of life for fetuses.

I'm not sure religious people or anti-abortionists are actually ready for the human rights/legal fall out of a fetus "aware" society. Truthfully no one is really.

>>10765482
>>10765341

Three species of ants (Myrmica sabuleti, Myrmica rubra and Myrmica ruginodis) and a 10 cm long fish species (Cleaner Wrasse) passed the mirror test.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:50:16 2019 No.10765781 >>10765584 You’re the perfect case study for why abortion should not be legal, but mandatory in cases

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:51:09 2019 No.10765784 >>10765777 It wasn't part of the mother's body beforehand either, it simply was inside her body. You even described the baby as parasitic, which means that while dependent on the mother to feed, it's still a separate organism.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:51:33 2019 No.10765785

>>10765770
That is a false assumption. Rich white kids have been getting abortions for decades and probably centuries. Why do you think you see so many teenage pregnancies in shitty schools and virtually none in the fancy private schools? I guarantee, if you survey those kids, they're having just as much unprotected sex as the 'ghetto trash' in the school down the block. They just have the financial resources to get themselves to the one abortion clinic 50 miles away that the Republican state government has allowed to continue exist.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:52:02 2019 No.10765786 >>10765763 Replace entities in the argument with '1000 of my own zygotes ready to be implanted' and 'someone elses child' and the ethical conclusion does not change one bit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:52:11 2019 No.10765787 File: 41 KB, 889x594, 1550242569663.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10765781

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:52:35 2019 No.10765788

>>10765784
>It wasn't part of the mother's body beforehand either, it simply was inside her body.

Meaningless distinction when there's literally an organ between them that is interchanging fluids. Are microbiota a 'part of your body' even though they're bacteria and not mammalian cells? If you aren't retarded and trying to shape biological reality around the abortion debate, you would say yes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:53:04 2019 No.10765790 >>10765769 Reals are important, but ALL moral arguments ultimately come down to feels, no exceptions.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:53:24 2019 No.10765791 >>10765785 That's neat, now provide some evidence for this. >>10765786 Still meaningless.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:54:32 2019 No.10765794 >>10765788 What microbiota? You were talking about parasites before. Are tapeworms part of your body?

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:54:54 2019 No.10765795

>>10765790
Basing your final judgment entirely on feels is mistaken though. That's the kind of bullshit that makes people ignore a lump in their breast because they're afraid of the truth. Or the kind of bullshit that motivates America to invade Iraq after 9/11. Sometimes your gut emotional response is a bad litmus test for what's right to do.

That being said, I have no gut response to abortion. It's a justifiable right and I see no problem with it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:56:14 2019 No.10765798 >>10765791 >Still meaningless. not an argument

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:57:03 2019 No.10765803 >>10765798 Neither is yours.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:58:45 2019 No.10765804 >>10765794 google the vocabulary you don't understand before asking people to explain it to you also, what the hell. you're on a science board. how have you never been exposed to the concept of the human microbiome?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 10:59:37 2019 No.10765807 Saying that a fetus is a child is the same thing as saying a child is a fetus. Religion tards can't into logic and should be kept away from laws

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:01:52 2019 No.10765814 >>10765807 please stop embarrassing us t. an abortionist

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:02:26 2019 No.10765816

>>10765791
>That's neat, now provide some evidence for this.

Guttmacher Institute showed only 49% of abortion recipients are below the poverty level. That means an overwhelming majority of the total abortions in the US are performed on people who aren't 'ghetto trash'.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:02:28 2019 No.10765817 >>10765804 The human microbiome is not equivalent at all to a parasite because the microbiome is largely symbiotic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:04:41 2019 No.10765822 >>10765816 Just read the abstract of the paper they sourced, dummy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29048970

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:05:36 2019 No.10765824

>>10765817
I never made the 'parasite' analogy. That was another anon.

My argument is that because the fetus is objectively a part of the mother's body, she has the autonomy to make her own decisions about it. In the same way that the state couldn't force me to transfuse my own blood into someone who is dying, you can't force a pregnant woman to continue to carry a fetus to term.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:06:48 2019 No.10765829

>>10765816
Really weird how only 12% of Americans are below the poverty level but they make up half of all abortions.
It's almost like condemning poor people to have children they can't support is a strategy used by conservatives to keep more people poor.

Is it ethical to bring a child into the world and condemn it to a life of destitute poverty that it is statistically unlikely to escape from? I would say no, not if you KNOW you cannot provide well enough for them.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:08:59 2019 No.10765836

>>10765768
It's not comparable to a biological parasite in the same way that a fetus is.
Your entire argument thus far is "a baby and a fetus are the same thing because you have to feed a baby", you're retarded.

You also completely ignored the fact that a baby need not be breastfed.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:09:34 2019 No.10765840

>>10765661
>I'm saving the child because I have a bigger empathetic reaction to it, the same I would have to my own child over a stranger child

Not the same at all. Many, or even most, people would argue that you should save hundreds of others children over your own child. But there is almost nobody who would pick the frozen container full of embryos over a single child, no matter how objectively and detachedly you try to think about the situation. This is not some irrational empathetic reaction, but something very fundamental. It is a correct moral decision and you know it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:11:54 2019 No.10765851 >>10765829 I think we actually have the same views here, I just take issue with the idea that rich people don't have abortions.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:13:25 2019 No.10765856 >>10765722 Negative utilitarianism > positive utilitarianism

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:14:30 2019 No.10765861 >>10765824 It's not part of the mother's body, it's inside her body. >>10765836 I never said it's the same, I said they're both parasitic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:15:11 2019 No.10765863 >>10765297 >t. pedophile

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:15:35 2019 No.10765865 >>10765840 I already said it's not an irrational conclusion, but that it carries no weight in this conversation. My emotional reaction to that scenario does not somehow disprove that a zygote is alive and a human.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:15:58 2019 No.10765867

>>10765861
>It's not part of the mother's body, it's inside her body.

Meaningless semantics when, again, there are organs literally interchanging plasma, nutrients, and antibodies between them. Any neonatologist or biologist for that matter would describe a fetus or zygote as 'part' of the mother's body. Myself included.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:16:32 2019 No.10765869 i hate catholics so fucking much

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:18:02 2019 No.10765874 >>10765573 based "everyone is stupid except for me" poster

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:18:14 2019 No.10765876 >>10765867 I am a biologist and I do not describe a mother's offspring as "part of her body". That makes absolutely no sense.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:18:46 2019 No.10765877 I hate americans so fucking much

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:19:02 2019 No.10765879 I am a twenty year old fetus

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:21:10 2019 No.10765886

>>10765876
Offspring no - fetus and zygote, yes. Unless you visualize the womb as a water balloon that temporarily holds an independently-developing organism.

Also pretty shitty biologist if you think that having a direct placental connection doesn't constitute being a 'part' of the mother's body.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:25:23 2019 No.10765904

>>10765341
>The gold standard [for which animals are OK to slaughter] is the so-called Mirror Test
That has never been true and I have no idea why you would make that up. Animal slaughter has nothing to do with the mirror test. You aren't allowed to slaughter dogs in most of the developed world for example and they don't pass the mirror test.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:25:26 2019 No.10765905 >>10765863 requesting rule 34 on foetuses, dont fail me now 4chan

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:26:28 2019 No.10765908 >>10765886 being connected to is not the same as being a part of

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:26:32 2019 No.10765909 >>10765905 Just ask your local diocese

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 11:26:34 2019 No.10765910

>>10765886
>a fetus or a zygote aren't offspring
Huh?
>Also pretty shitty biologist if you think that having a direct placental connection doesn't constitute being a 'part' of the mother's body.
Being part of the body means being morphologically and functionally tied to it.
A fetus is neither, it's simply a foreign organism grown by the mother.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 12:55:09 2019 No.10766129 >>10765374 this but unironically

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 12:58:15 2019 No.10766140 Think about it this way: of you think abortion. Is morally wrong, then don't get an abortion. People kill each other weather it's legal or not

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 13:00:21 2019 No.10766150 >>10765351 at what point is it a human and at that point is it a blob of cells? is it a human when sperm enters egg or when it has a brain and can feel suffering

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 13:01:42 2019 No.10766154 >>10765453 Untill late term , when as far as i hear it CAN feel suffering and has A BRAIN

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 13:03:42 2019 No.10766158 >>10765351 based but not redpilled. Redpilled would be saying the law needs to add an arbitrary age, or other criteria that starts defining an human, otherwise you can take the position that fetus can be human beings

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 13:04:28 2019 No.10766162 >>10765525 What about embryos

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 13:04:45 2019 No.10766163 >>10765374 True, but what if you take a globalist position? Your move

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 13:15:24 2019 No.10766188 >>10766154 Yeah. I'm against late-term abortions.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 13:26:28 2019 No.10766216 >>10765293 >what does science actually say about abortion? That your mother should have had one.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 13:43:03 2019 No.10766262 >>10765293 >So what does science actually say about abortion? Is it really murder? Nothing, science doesn't deal with ethical questions.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 13:58:24 2019 No.10766307 >>10765341 das raycis and you know it

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 13:58:42 2019 No.10766309 >>10765300 >not optimal lmao. By then it's unarguably murder.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 14:00:21 2019 No.10766316 >>10765341 >saw this one video on IFLS about THE (The!) mirror test. >Anon's joepinion is now the mandate that mankind must follow. kill yourself

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 14:03:48 2019 No.10766338 >>10765391 Alright so when a kid squeezes out at 5 months it already obtained this "higher brain", but if it takes 10 months for delivery then it takes twice as long for that baby. Yeah, sure, faggot. Birth is a moronic requirement for personhood.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 14:05:08 2019 No.10766347 File: 292 KB, 621x702, 1558327086100.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Hey OP this is the better version

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 14:35:20 2019 No.10766455
File: 18 KB, 337x306, 1549097860296.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10765293
I'm pro-abortion because it keeps dysgenic trends in check, but I do agree that fetuses do have a degree of self-awareness at a point. During early brain development, random activity in (what will become) the motor cortex leads to movement in the fetuses body. This is what causes baby "kicking", but occurs quite a bit a mom starts to notice, which happens once the fetus is bigger. Then, due to proprioceptive and somatosensory feedback, the baby learns a degree of self-awareness (bodily awareness): associations are formed between the patterns of activity in the motor cortex and the effect that has on a region of the body. The basis of self-awareness occurs in the fetal stage, so I guess you could call abortion "murder". That being said, there are already too many Africans in this world, and abortion is the best way of preventing there being more. It has the additional benefit of keeping inferior white or asian people from reproducing as well (i.e., the type who would choose to vet abortions).

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:13:02 2019 No.10766551

>>10765688
Capital punishment ain’t Murder though, only killing as a conservative would say, if the accused turns out to be innocent post Mortis then they would all consider it a great tragedy. Abortion is needed though, it would be fucking nice if we didn’t but our shit smear of a civilization needs it to be less dysgenic so the decline is slower. Or the decline doesn’t kill fast enough for the cure of genetic engineering to be perfected.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:16:52 2019 No.10766561 >>10765536 Sola Scriptura is heresy.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:20:17 2019 No.10766569

>>10766347
based and threw up fucking disgusting
literally only whores, they should be legally required to show they've had an abortion so I don't have to talk to them
women's rights was a mistake we will get fucked by islam because white men are too much cuck to control their women

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:24:35 2019 No.10766573 >>10766569 >Not happy that the ethnic group that knows how to control their women will genocide the basedgoys The only way this could have been better is if it had been militant orthodox jews, but that’s what Islam is anyways.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:29:28 2019 No.10766584 >>10766569 >>10766569 >women's rights was a mistake we will get fucked by islam because white men are too much cuck to control their women Every anti abortion argument eventually comes down to christian white nationalism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:35:16 2019 No.10766591 >>10766455 Checked. Based and consciouspilled.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:35:46 2019 No.10766592

>>10766584
>Christian
>White nationalism

Sorry to pop your bubble but every civilization that has lasted more than 100 years has had to put severe restrictions on women’s right. And I am here to set the record straight because you retards say this comes from white people but we had this shit in GENESIS. Have you read the Torah? We were the first to realize women were disgusting mongrels. Everyone else just copied us because they saw how optimized Jewish society was.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:44:14 2019 No.10766613

>>10765293
>Is it really murder?
>Is it really the wrongful killing of a human being?
>Is abortion really wrong?
People who have no argument to support their position other than "muh fee-fees" love to claim that science proves them right because it absolves them of having to defend their claims with actually relevant ethical arguments.
But all of their "scientific" claims inevitably boil down to ethical or philosophical claims in disguise, as this thread repeatedly demonstrates. At least liberals don't try to hide the fact that their pro-choice arguments are about rights and ethics.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:46:18 2019 No.10766619 >>10766592 >Sorry to pop your bubble but every civilization that has lasted more than 100 years has had to put severe restrictions on women’s right. [citation needed] >have you read the Torah? No I don't read fiction.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:49:06 2019 No.10766621

>>10766619
You should. All of the first world comforta you enjoy derive from the optimization of Jewish thinking. I give Christians 50% credit because they spreaded it way better than we ever could (Rome kicked us out for trying to convert people). This is true. Try to start an atheist nation and see how quickly you fall into anarchy and die off. The Torah is a statesmanship guide.

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:51:07 2019 No.10766628

>>10765605
D.) Pull my shirt over my nose and break all of the vials, then murder the child with the glass

Organic life is an abomination to cosmic canons. The only acceptable life is one focused on wiping out all other life. Every single protein must be broken apart, before it spreads to other planets.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:53:09 2019 No.10766635 i don't give a fuck about a fetus being or not if it's convenient, kill the means justify the end

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 15:57:00 2019 No.10766650

If you were to extract a cubic centimeter from a neutron star, keeping it compressed in a gravity well, then took it back to earth and disabled the gravity well, the resulting explosion would be about 500 billion megatons.

A single cubic centimeter of degenerate matter would strip the world of it's crust, and most of the outer mantle. What would be left is a much smaller ball of magma, with a crater that stretched to the core. No extremophile would survive. Life would never return. A cubic centimeter.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 16:03:11 2019 No.10766663 Life is a metaphysical virus. It must be eradicated before it spreads.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 16:03:16 2019 No.10766664 >>10765293 If it were up to me, you'd be able to kill a baby up until it's a year old. They don't have proper awareness until they're about 2 or 3. We literally give birth to children earlier than any other animal because our brains are huge

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 16:09:46 2019 No.10766679 >>10765414 This is the thought experiment I used If there were a coma patient that was almost guaranteed to wake up in 9 months it would be an atrocity to murder him.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 16:43:14 2019 No.10766764 >>10765876 >> I am a biologist And I am a doctor who has delivered over a 1000 children over my career. An embryo isn’t a human, suck it

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 16:45:37 2019 No.10766769 >>10765404 cope bluepilled cuck

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 16:46:35 2019 No.10766773 >>10766764 It's literally defined as a human in an early developmental stage, you brainlet.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 17:03:08 2019 No.10766822 >>10766628 How do you feel about inorganic life?

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 17:10:54 2019 No.10766839
File: 83 KB, 667x661, 1561767943102.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10766822
>>10766455
>>10766188
>>10765877
>>10765822
>>10765788
>>10765777
>>10765699
>>10765688
>>10765622
>>10765588
>>10765544
>>10765488
>>10765411
>>10765300
Why is it that dubs/trips tend to be more based/redpilled than other posts? It seriously is a strange phenomena.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 17:20:42 2019 No.10766863 >>10765304 by jews

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 17:25:47 2019 No.10766876 >>10765908 yes it fucking does

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 17:29:14 2019 No.10766883 >>10765605 D.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 18:33:29 2019 No.10767026 >>10765605 facebook-tier argument

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 18:40:41 2019 No.10767031

>>10765340
Rapes account for less than 1% of total abortions. It's a non-argument.

>>10765293
Biologists and religious figures agree, life begins at conception.
Abortion is technically murder, yes. But who really cares? "What race is it" seems to be a valuable question in determining the significance of the loss of the child.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 18:40:58 2019 No.10767032 >>10766150 At birth, by definition.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 18:52:50 2019 No.10767055 >>10767031 >who are the parents and who were their parents this is more important than race or iq, should also be asked of every pregnancy not simply unwanted mishaps

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 18:58:17 2019 No.10767066 >>10765293 No. WE are not organism, we are embodied minds. And there are no any substrate for mind before at least 18 weeks.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 19:05:52 2019 No.10767084 >>10765297 Life ends with brain death, therefore life starts when brain starts function. btfo

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 19:14:04 2019 No.10767103

>>10767031

Life isn't the issue, self-awareness is the issue you dipshit. You can have a person be alive but legally brain dead with no self-awareness which is what is necessary to interact with society.

>What race is it" seems to be a valuable question

It's not, from a strictly genomic perspective gene assortment is the most important. Every act of "conception" is a dice roll in what gene assortment you get and with the millions of viable sperm + hundreds of thousands of eggs combinations between two sexually involved mates there is no guarantee what you will get regardless of how selective you are with the individuals in question.

Which is why genetic engineering is necessary.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 19:19:32 2019 No.10767115 >>10767103 > self-awareness is the issue All animals are self-aware.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 19:22:36 2019 No.10767120 >>10767103 You do not have any self-awareness while you are in deep anesthesia. is it okay to kill you then?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 19:25:21 2019 No.10767127 >>10767115 I trust you have a citation for that claim?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 19:26:18 2019 No.10767133 >>10765297 Based and Christpilled

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 19:29:44 2019 No.10767138 >>10767103 >interact with society. Human babies or oligophrenic people can't do this.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 19:31:27 2019 No.10767142 >>10765297 Human becomes a person only after 2 or 3 year after birth, moron.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 19:35:45 2019 No.10767150 >>10767138 this. Also, >schizophrenics

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 19:49:30 2019 No.10767178
File: 31 KB, 660x574, _91408619_55df76d5-2245-41c1-8031-07a4da3f313f.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>a human organism
at conception
>a human organism that able to feel(pain for example)
somewhere between of 18 and 26 weeks after conception
>a person
somewhere during the third year after birth

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 19:54:31 2019 No.10767191 >>10767178 I am sorry >a human person there also are animals persons. Adult healthy chimps for example.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 21:10:11 2019 No.10767346 >>10766773 Cry some more

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 21:23:41 2019 No.10767357

>>10765777

>bodily autonomy

So you aknowledge the right of a person to refuse vaccines and expose immuno compromised to diseases that exist only in rural Pakistan?

Do think anyone is required to stop to help someone else in need? Call an ambulance even?

How do you feel on taxes? Should people be allowed to confiscate money that you didn't consent to, enthusiastically and continuously, be spent on programs you don't agree with. Or even do agree with but not to the degree.

The left needs to be REAL careful pushing the bodily autonomy thing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 21:30:20 2019 No.10767369 >>10765816 >Guttmacher Institute showed only 49% of abortion recipients are below the poverty level. >That means an overwhelming majority of the total abortions in the US are performed on people who aren't 'ghetto trash'. 51%?

Anonymous Sat Jun 29 21:35:16 2019 No.10767380

>>10767357
>So you aknowledge the right of a person to refuse vaccines and expose immuno compromised to diseases that exist only in rural Pakistan?

that's a dumb argument - one's right to swing their fist ends at the tip of someone else's nose.

the other 2/3 are already legal

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 29 22:17:06 2019 No.10767486 >>10767380 So the bodily autonomy aspect gives way and we are back to arguing fetal rights?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 03:03:57 2019 No.10767908 >>10767346 Embarrassing.

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 03:28:06 2019 No.10767936
File: 524 KB, 1561x1333, 23423.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10765777
Argument from body autonomy only comes into play when we recognize the right of the human in an early developmental stage to life. This argument says:
mother's right on body autonomy > her baby's right to life

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 03:35:11 2019 No.10767944

I say only that it's retarded to rely on the Hippocratic oath as a defense against abortion.

The morals of it are for each individual soul to reconcile. But the ethics of it are clear: the dangers of yester-year are long gone and one is obligated to start asking questions like "what are the implications of the fact that one's willingness and ability to dead-end childbirth vectors being inversely proportionate to their social worth as parents?"

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 09:17:08 2019 No.10768376 >>10765570 >10765525 # Absolutely based

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 09:36:26 2019 No.10768397 >>10765297 Based and compassion pilled. Fuck every single pro-abortion pieces of shit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 09:46:49 2019 No.10768405 >>10765856 Okay go kill people and yourself. You won’t because negative utilitarianism is retarded and you don’t actually believe it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 09:54:28 2019 No.10768419 >>10765293 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 10:35:09 2019 No.10768483 >>10765293 abortion is murder and you should be okay with that, in my opinion

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 10:56:38 2019 No.10768515 File: 93 KB, 768x1024, SUPER CHAD.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10765778 Hey that's a pretty reasoned take anon, I think I will discuss that more with my friends.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 11:02:46 2019 No.10768523 >>10766621 >Try to start an atheist nation and see how quickly you fall into anarchy China seems fine, so does Norway

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 11:05:25 2019 No.10768526 >>10768397 Compassion for what? A clump of cells?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 12:10:49 2019 No.10768650 >>10768523 China is a shitty dictatorship with an extremely low HDI that is also suffering from a giant demographic issue, and Norway is the typical eurocuck nation that's gonna become a minority in about 50 years.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 12:18:39 2019 No.10768667 >>10768650 No true Scotsman.

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 12:23:03 2019 No.10768676

>>10768650
>China is a shitty dictatorship

It’s an oligarchy, actually, which is why it’s superior.

>with an extremely low HDI

It’s classed as “high”. You’re a fucking retard liar lmao

>that is also suffering from a giant demographic issue

Who cares? Happens to EVERY developed country unless they, uh oh, immigrate people in.

>and Norway is the typical eurocuck nation

So a better place to live than the U.S by most metrics?

>that's gonna become a minority in about 50 years.

How does a country become a minority? Meaningless.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 12:31:02 2019 No.10768700 >>10768650 >waaaah, they have problems and therefore are invalid! Catholicism has a problem with protecting pedophiles, but it still functions

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 12:31:19 2019 No.10768702

>>10768667
How? I am acknowledging that they are both atheist majority, I'm just saying that they're both very unstable.

>>10768676
Half of the countries on the planet are classified as "high" or "very high". It's still Ukraine-tier with an imploding population and economy.
Also, China can't really solve their problem with immigration since not only do they need tens of millions of immigrants, they also need way more women than men.

>How does a country become a minority? Meaningless.
Ethnic Norwegians will become a minority. If you think Norway will maintain its HDI when it's gonna be majority Ngubus then good luck. Lol!

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 12:40:28 2019 No.10768738 >>10768700 There's a difference between being unsustainable and having problems.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 12:43:30 2019 No.10768746 >>10768702 >I'm just saying that they're both very unstable. And I'm saying they aren't unstable. It's literally just your weird racist opinion. No actual facts.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 12:44:04 2019 No.10768751 >>10765293 Science has literally absolutely nothing to do with this. Please stay off this board

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 12:45:38 2019 No.10768759

>>10768702
>How? I am acknowledging that they are both atheist majority, I'm just saying that they're both very unstable.

Yeah China’s so unstable. It’ll collapse any day now, I swear. Say that every year and maybe it’ll actually happen. Norway isn’t unstable in any way at all. Neither is the Czech Republic or South Korea.

>Half of the countries on the planet are classified as "high" or "very high".

Great then you admitted you lied.

>It's still Ukraine-tier with an imploding population and economy.

Lemme know when you prove it’s population is “imploding” and so is it’s economy. Whatever that means.

>Also, China can't really solve their problem with immigration since not only do they need tens of millions of immigrants, they also need way more women than men.

As if tens of millions can’t immigrate. This problem occurs in all developed nations, again.

>Ethnic Norwegians will become a minority.

Cool. Prove it.

>If you think Norway will maintain its HDI when it's gonna be majority Ngubus then good luck. Lol!

Lithuanians and Polish immigrants in Norway outnumber African ones. You really need to stop browsing /pol/

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 12:56:12 2019 No.10768789 >>10768751 why not? Biology defines what a "living being" is. And murder can be defined as making a living being dead. Question of when does something start to exhibit qualities of a living being is very much a scientific question.

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 13:10:36 2019 No.10768830

>>10768789
But science doesn't decide where the line is. We kill plenty of animals that are smarter than a newborn. Plenty that have more self awareness. Plenty that feel pain in the process. Do we only care because the DNA matches more closely with our own?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 13:13:11 2019 No.10768841 >>10768830 >But science doesn't decide where the line is. We kill plenty of animals that are smarter than a newborn. That’s bad too. Eating animals should be punished by death.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 13:16:37 2019 No.10768856 >>10768841 >Eating animals should be punished by death. Vegans, everyone.

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 13:17:20 2019 No.10768859

>>10768759
>Yeah China’s so unstable. It’ll collapse any day now, I swear. Say that every year and maybe it’ll actually happen. Norway isn’t unstable in any way at all. Neither is the Czech Republic or South Korea.
Not sure what you're trying to say other than "nuh huh".
>Great then you admitted you lied.
No, I just didn't use the same nomenclature. Moldova is also considered "high" HDI but it's an undeveloped shithole.
>Lemme know when you prove it’s population is “imploding” and so is it’s economy.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/2130737/why-china-must-wake-demographic-reality
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2155366/chinas-ageing-population-problem-worsens-birth-and
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/01/17/world/asia/china-population-crisis.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_VPKGewapI
https://www.chinausfocus.com/society-culture/chinas-demographics-problem---more-to-come
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/20/china-next-generation-ageing-population
>As if tens of millions can’t immigrate. This problem occurs in all developed nations, again.
Yeah, pretty much. They can't since that will create a giant domino effect.
The average developed country doesn't have over 1 billion people, so the immigration rates are nowhere near equal with what China would have to do.
>Cool. Prove it.
You don't know simple math? Norwegian birthrate is 1.5 yet its population is increasing purely through immigration.
>Lithuanians and Polish immigrants in Norway outnumber African ones.
The majority of immigrants to Norway are non-European.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway#Demographics
>You really need to stop browsing /pol/
Fuck off, faggot. Stop pretending that your version of brainwashing is somehow scientifically literate and logically sound.
You're nothing but an emotional illiterate.

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 13:22:17 2019 No.10768882

>>10768830
but killing animals is murder, right? I mean, murder is just another way to say kill. You can't kill a rock or any non-living thing. As far as I know 7 things define what a living being is like for example response to stimuli. Certainly we can trace when the fetus is able to fulfill all of the requirements to be called a living being. I don't think it's from conception since probably fertilized egg doesn't have metabolism or other stuff that are essential to living beings

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 13:23:39 2019 No.10768888 >>10768882 now just to clarify, I don't think people should be punished for killing animals (unless they torture or stuff like that), but I still think it is murder

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 13:29:40 2019 No.10768911 >>10768856 What’s your point, faggot? You’re no better than a Nazi if you eat animals. Should be dangling from hooks.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 13:42:15 2019 No.10768947 >>10768882 >Certainly we can trace when the fetus is able to fulfill all of the requirements to be called a living being. That doesn't give us any more information than we already have. We already kill living beings by the truckload.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 13:44:36 2019 No.10768953 >>10768947 OP's question is literally this >So what does science actually say about abortion? Is it really murder? Science is able to answer that. what you're talking about is a philosophical question completely different from the one OP posted

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 14:09:16 2019 No.10769027 >>10766455 >That being said, there are already too many Africans in this world, and abortion is the best way of preventing there being more. >>>/pol/

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 17:53:51 2019 No.10769569 >>10765293 Science doesn't make moral judgements for you. You're looking for philosophy of science, it's in the humanities building.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 18:06:23 2019 No.10769594 >>10769569 I didn't ask for any moral judgement, I asked whether or not it's murder.

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 18:09:28 2019 No.10769599
File: 23 KB, 420x630, coming-collapse.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10768859
>Not sure what you're trying to say other than "nuh huh".
People have been making China collapse predictions for longer than you've been alive. None of those predictions have ever come to pass.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 18:16:27 2019 No.10769614 >>10769599 All I said is that it's suffering from a giant demographic issue, not that it's gonna collapse. The guy I replied to simply strawmanned me and implied that's what I said.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 18:17:48 2019 No.10769617 >>10765297 based and biblepilled

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 20:09:47 2019 No.10769770 >>10769594 Murder is a moral judgement you absolute clown.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 20:11:22 2019 No.10769772 >>10769614 >All I said is that it's suffering from a giant demographic issue This also isn't true.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 20:32:46 2019 No.10769828 >>10765293 can't derive an ought from an is if we can agree that killing humans ought not to happen, then we can start talking about what it means to be human and if an unborn child is one or not if so, then abortion ought not to happen

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 20:34:04 2019 No.10769835 >>10765391 > no higher brain -> no mind then killing you shouldn't be a problem

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 21:09:18 2019 No.10769932 >>10766455 ??? Bullshit. Fetuses have no real self-awareness

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 21:12:43 2019 No.10769936

>>10766664
The old compromise: Abortion is murder after birth. Then we compromised with the religious... again, with illegal after 3rd trimester. Then, we appeased them again with state's rights and 2nd trimester "logic". Naturally they have pursued the argument all the way to conception and the right is under threat in every state.

When the fuck will people learn? You can't negotiate reality with religious people. You cannot give them an inch. America is better than this.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 21:24:28 2019 No.10769964 >>10769936 >WAAAAHHHH people think there are government protected and funded for-profit baby muder factories and all O have to respond is "it's not really a baby because otherwise I admit to being the world's biggest monster."

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 21:25:45 2019 No.10769968 >>10765627 1 year old when they start being able to do shit at all?

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 22:03:21 2019 No.10770050

>>10765570
That's such an arbitrary line, though. Like, if I was babysitting a kid and decided to just lock them in their room and not care for them, I would obviously be held responsible for any harm to them that occurs as a result. I signed a contract to care for them, and part of that contract, implicitly, is to not just lock them away. So I sort of just have to take care of them until their parents get back, no matter how I feel about it during the night.
Pregnancy is basically just babysitting a fetus. You pretty much implicitly take responsibility for caring for this thing upon conception, with the understanding that such care will necessarily entail you carrying it in your uterus for some time. It's just, like, part of the contract, y'know? It doesn't really matter if someone else could care for it or not at that point, you already promised that you alone would care for it.
And, if anything, it's inability to survive without you just makes your decision to abandon it after bringing it to conception that much crueler.

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 22:12:20 2019 No.10770072

>>10765297
/thread
When a child is conceived it is functionally a human life, if there is no intervention typical in 9 months a human child will be introduced to this world. Most abortions arent done because of rape or because the woman is in danger, instead, in most cases it is a woman who does not want to take responsibility for their actions. Use protection, take birth control, if your unsure use the morning after pill. Abortion is a joke and a society that seriously supports is evil and rotten to the core.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 22:14:25 2019 No.10770081 >>10769770 Fucking retard lol

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 22:18:03 2019 No.10770092 >>10770072 >When a child is conceived it is functionally a human life So? Why does that mean abortion should be illegal?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 22:24:17 2019 No.10770116 >>10770092 Because it's murder. Murdering a baby.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 22:42:45 2019 No.10770161 >>10770116 It's murdering a fetus.

Anonymous Sun Jun 30 22:54:32 2019 No.10770186

>>10770161

Round two.

>it doesn't matter if it's a person, bodily autonomy and sheeit
>what about bodily autonony and X?

>well that person's bodily autonomy ends at the next person's bodily autonony.
>Fetuses have bodily autonomy then.

>God! It's not a person because of *arbitrary reason that applies to elderly, retards, and most people who live at home/before 25*.

>hey, those reasons are completely abritrary!
>God! It doesn't matter because bodily autonomy trumps all.

And around we go.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 23:22:21 2019 No.10770237 >>10770161 Fetuses are human, in the process of developing. They should be treated with MORE care, they can't defend themselves. Just like how children are treated with care, unborn children should be too. They. Cant. Defend. Themselves.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 23:25:05 2019 No.10770241 >>10770237 >if baby is a fetus = true after argument it's not a person = complete, execute: bodilyautonomy.exe

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 23:48:21 2019 No.10770297 >>10770237 How about ending life support for people in a coma? Can't defend themselves, sometimes it's better to kill them. Letting people kill unwanted fetuses is better for society with basically no downsides.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 23:56:31 2019 No.10770311 >>10770297 Low iq bait >>10770241 Life is not a program cs faggot

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 30 23:58:43 2019 No.10770315 >>10770311 Alright. There are currently baby murdering factories operating within 20 miles of you using your tax dollars. What are you going to do about it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:00:31 2019 No.10770318 >>10770315 Not pay taxes

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:02:59 2019 No.10770324 >>10770318 Gonna break into the Treasury to get your medicaid and social security deposit back?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:04:12 2019 No.10770326 >>10770311 >Low iq bait Not bait at all. Pragmatically, legalized abortion is the obvious choice.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:05:21 2019 No.10770327 >>10770324 >thinking anyone is going to get those back

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:12:56 2019 No.10770341 >>10770327 >thinking they aren't being taken oit of your pay check as an extra tax to pay for current spending while actual social security stacks up with what amounts ti IOUs

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:15:00 2019 No.10770347 >>10765293 Yes its murder

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:15:54 2019 No.10770350 >>10770347 But it doesn't matter because blood transfusions and bodily autonomy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:19:48 2019 No.10770355 >>10770350 The fetuses are the important part. Mothers are just wombs

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:22:44 2019 No.10770358 >>10770355 Well thank god fetuses aren't people. Round 3. FIGHT.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:25:39 2019 No.10770364 File: 64 KB, 725x600, 1899.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10770358 I pity your dull secular existence

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:27:30 2019 No.10770371 >>10770364 I pity the fact that you believe there are for profit child murder factories being operated all over your country and the only thing you do is argue a circular logic shitpost while they remain open.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:31:50 2019 No.10770379 >>10770371 Where did I say I believed that? I just think abortion is murder, I believe you've created an inaccurate avatar of what I believe.

Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:34:56 2019 No.10770383

>>10770379

>abortion is murder
>planned parenthood administers abortion
>planned parenthood is a for profit business that receives government funds and enjoys federal protection

I get it. Kinda takes the wind out of your sails to say there's effectively baby concentration camps being run and you do nothing about it.

Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:38:43 2019 No.10770391

>>10770383
Well I cant, all I can do is vote. More and more states are taking stance the correct stance on the issue of infacide. If this is what we end up fighting the next civil war over I'd be happy to die protecting the lives of thw unborn.
Also, go back to twitter or reddit, your spacing gives you away.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:43:55 2019 No.10770402 >>10765715 Definitely not

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:46:04 2019 No.10770407 >>10770391 >I'll fight >But I won't take the first shot And thus the first shot will never be taken.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:47:49 2019 No.10770409 >>10765605 You're near the edge of a cliff, there is a flaming car and a flaming bus. In the flaming bus there are 25 people you dont know. In the flaming car is your mother. Which do you save?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 00:49:24 2019 No.10770416 Instead of aborting the fetus, why don't we use it for stem cell research?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 05:12:55 2019 No.10770719 >>10765605 this is not the first time, you tried to get away this is not a party, where people know your name this is not a classroom, with teacher at the board this is not a game show, with prizes behind the door OOH, DON'T YOU GOOOO

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 05:20:28 2019 No.10770729 >>10766650 school shootings in the future are going to be fucked up huh

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 05:25:13 2019 No.10770738 >>10770072 >When a child is conceived it is functionally a human life Human life should not be protected, only human (and maybe even non-human) PERSONS should be. Neither early term foetuses nor braindead people on life support qualify.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 05:27:45 2019 No.10770741 >>10770416 good idea

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 05:55:07 2019 No.10770770 >>10769772 It is true. What type of fucking argument is that?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 06:09:52 2019 No.10770784 >>10770407 Why are you trying to pretend you have some moral superiority over that guy? Like you're doing more than posting on 4chan and are taking an active stance on world issues by posting here. Get some self-awareness.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 06:38:58 2019 No.10770817 >>10770738 This is correct.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 06:40:20 2019 No.10770820 >>10767084 All possible stages for life to begin are totally arbitrary but this one seems most sensible

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 06:50:55 2019 No.10770831 >>10770784 >b-b-buh why are people pointing out I'm a spineless faggot ;__; Go get testosterone injections.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 06:52:22 2019 No.10770832 >>10770831 >tells someone else to do something >it's pointed out he's in the same position >doubles down Alright...

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 07:18:46 2019 No.10770866 >>10769964 It isn't a baby. A baby can survive without an umbilical cord, a fetus cannot. Attempts to compromise on this only leads to "baby" being defined as a sperm inside an egg.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 07:22:47 2019 No.10770870 >>10770866 A baby cannot survive on its own so therefore its okay to kill babies. Nice moral reasoning.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 09:37:52 2019 No.10771032 The total happiness in the world goes up. And the fetus doesn't really feel pain if you do it painlessly I guess.

Anonymous Mon Jul 1 16:56:39 2019 No.10772016

>>10765293
In my honest opinion, I would compare abortion of a human child to the killing/destruction of animals and objects (etc.) who/which doesn't contain a consciousness.

So technically speaking, yes it's murder. But it's murder understood as the equivalent of slaughtering cattle.

Besides, letting females abort fetuses increases their chance of actually having success in life, without having to experience a burden in the form of adulthood.

You guys agree right?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 17:02:25 2019 No.10772030 >>10771032 My joy relies on knowing the fetus feels every rip and tear. If I could whisper to every fetus in the womb what's coming in detail I would.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 17:02:48 2019 No.10772033 >>10765787 Did you make these yourself? I'm sure your parents are proud.

Anonymous Mon Jul 1 17:04:37 2019 No.10772040

>>10772016

Step 3.

It's not a real human so it doesn't have rights because of arbitrary reasons.

And after the prolifers say they are arbitrary or that the reasoning breaks down we move goalposts saying it shouldn't matter because bodily autonomy trumps everything.

The dance we've participated in since the 70s.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 17:11:39 2019 No.10772049 How's killing bad, without using empathy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 17:24:15 2019 No.10772077 File: 347 KB, 652x539, 1550354492634.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10772033

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 1 19:54:40 2019 No.10772474 File: 480 KB, 498x667, makesyouthink.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10765341 >blind people are not self aware and morally safe to kill at your own discretion interesting

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 2 01:33:25 2019 No.10773074 >>10772474 Kek

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 2 11:12:40 2019 No.10773675 >>10765293 Brain development begins at about 6 weeks and by 8 it can be reasonably argued that development is far enough along that it can be considered a separate individual.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 2 11:54:16 2019 No.10773742 >>10765293 Jesus Christ dude that's fucked up.

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/sci/ - Science & Math