/sci/ - Science & Math

>>9693149
I personally side with the second law of themodynamics, which is backed by hard math and empirical data. Evolution on the other hand, well, let's just say there's other theories that explain the same thing but do not conflict with science.

>>9693159
I agree. How could science have gone so wrong?

>>9693159
fpbp

>>9693149
>the second law of thermodynamics disputes that claim entirely
No it doesn't, complexity is measured in number of microstates which is proportional to exp-entropy, which increases over time just as the second law asserts.

>>9693149
>How can we reconcile two competing scientific theories?
Occam's razor.

>>9693149
>The theory of evolution, of course, competes with the second of thermodynamics for the natural flow of order.
Were you born retarded or did you hear that from a video?

>>9693149
>The theory of evolution, of course, competes with the second of thermodynamics
You're retarded and have no idea what you're talking about. Evolution and the 2nd law of thermodynamics are mutually exclusive.

>theory of evolution says that life becomes more complicated over time

I think of evolution as DNA thinking. That's a terrible analogy but it kinda fits. Evolution works like a machine learning algorithms trying to adapt itself to it's environment. In this way evolution kinda like DNA thinking.

Now afaik the only thing that can locally reverse entropy is an intelligence force. It doesn't happen naturally. Locally reversing entropy (like cleaning a messy room for instance) can only happen with will and thoughtfulness.
It's a HUGE leap but I think entropy and intelligence are related somehow. As entropy increases somewhere so does intelligence somewhere else. It's possible at the very end of the universe when heat death occurs, there will be an intelligent life form that's spent all of eternity learning and evolving. A life form so powerful and intelligent that it can reverse all of entropy across the entire universe uni-formally, basically restarting the universe.
I believe this is what Isac Asimov's story "The Last Question" is alluding to.

>>9693149

>>9693206
>Evolution and the 2nd law of thermodynamics are mutually exclusive
Retard

>>9693212
>entropy and intelligence are related somehow
Not as huge of a leap as you might think: look at the terminology used within information theory.

>>9693206
>>9693219
*aren't

>>9693149
>2nd law of thermodynamics
>The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time.
>closed system
>closed system
>closed system
Is the earth a closed system? Think hard about it. Carnivores consume herbivores, herbivores consume plants, and plants consume...

>>9693213
How does the sun mean anything? If anything, the sun further proves my point that the two theories are incompatible.

>>9693226
>>9693212
I think it's great that y'all are having fun and all but I just really want to point out that you have no idea what you are talking about and jtsa making me do a cringe frands.

>>9693226
very interesting. Thank you for pointing that out.

>>9693149
>the theory of evolution, of course, competes with the second of thermodynamics
>of course

jesus fucking christ, thought this woke isn't welcome on /sci/

>>9693159
Right, like all the thetan souls inside of us influencing our psychic growth into third level beings.

>>9693263
open to constructive criticism, but please save the mindless hate baiting for the flat earth threads

>>9693180(THIS)
Fpbp

>>9693253
It proves the point that you are retarded.
The sun provides the root energy for life processes, giving things the energy to live which makes evolution possible.

Also the misconception is that entropy and complexity are somehow linked whereas entropy is just a measure of the density of useful energy in a system and is only tangentially related to information or complexity in any way.

Finally, and most counterintuitively, is the idea that complexity itself requires a little bit of entropy, as low entropy is for all the energy to be concentrated in a small single region which doesn't encode much information at all, where as the spread of energy we see in life in general has its energy more spread out, so less useful, so more entropy.

>>9693279
>It proves the point that you are retarded.

Reported.

>>9693212
>Evolution works like a machine learning algorithms trying to adapt itself to it's environment
This is unscientific in that what the fuck are you even talking about how is life like a machine learning algorithm? What qualities make them so alike? I can't find any
>DNA thinking is like machine learning
Thinking and machine learning aren't equatable whatsoever. Thinking is not like processing.
>an intelligence force
Define "intelligence force" how does it work and what is it made of.(I can do this) otherwise it is a useless and vauge placeholder for a potential scientific object.
You are actually on to something but are completely ignorant of the science of it.
>*Hits bong* It's a HUGE leap but I think entropy and intelligence are related somehow. As entropy increases somewhere so does intelligence somewhere else. *Takes a whippet*
>somewhere so does intelligence somewhere else. It's possible at the very end of the universe when heat death occurs, there will be an intelligent life form that's spent all of eternity learning and evolving. A life form so powerful and intelligent that it can reverse all of entropy across the entire universe uni-formally, basically restarting the universe.
This is a huge leap and I'm not going to judge you for that. I think it's cool, this doesn't make alot of sense and it seems like you know it. So it's ok.
>>9693226
This you deserve to be bullied for.

>>9693279
Ummm... lol. You may wanna check your logic with that post haha

>>9693149
>The theory of evolution, of course, competes with the second of thermodynamics
They do not compete in the slightest, they describe different phenomena and have very little to do with each other. If you disagree with evolution this is a terrible argument. FPWP

>>9693279
Your definition of entropy is wrong. Entropy is the number of states that are functionally identical. More states = more entropy. Think of a pile of sand. You can arrange the individual grains of sand any way you like and it doesn't change the fact it's a pile of sand. Now look at a big lego castle. There is only really a handful of configurations the bricks could be in to form the castle, it's in a state of low entropy. But if you disassemble it then there are literally billions of ways you could arrange the pile of lego while it still retains it's essential character as a pile of lego so therefore it has high entropy.

Life is an arrangement of matter that is INCREDIBLY low entropy, and what's more it lowers the entropy of it's surroundings by creating order and rearranging matter into forms which are distinct from the low entropy character of normal matter.

>>9693279
>Finally, and most counterintuitively, is the idea that complexity itself requires a little bit of entropy, as low entropy is for all the energy to be concentrated in a small single region which doesn't encode much information at all, where as the spread of energy we see in life in general has its energy more spread out, so less useful, so more entropy.
This is true.
Basically we, and other life forms, all convert energy into less useful forms.
We are machines of entropy.
I'm sure someone will say "oh but if you make something then you have converted that energy into a more useful form" but that's false. You've used that energy to rearrange something, but in doing that you've radiated away energy as heat, heat that isn't enough to fuel any other systems. So you have converted that energy into a more ordered form of energy, entropy.

>>9693342
What happens when we inevitably create an infinite source of energy?

>>9693149
> The theory of evolution, of course, competes with the second of thermodynamics
How?, As far as I know there are no contradictions between the two or between any physical theory and the second law.

>>9693357
>no contradictions between the two

>>9693358
Show an example of a contradiction

>>9693149
But thermodynamics have resulted in greater complexity in normal matter as well.
Ever since the big bang more and more complex atoms have formed, only after neutron star conditions were present did the heavier elements become present.

Is complexity not an efficient way to lose energy?

>>9693352
>inevitably
>infinite
Maybe after an infinite amount of time we will create an infinite source of energy.

>>9693352
Then the second law of thermodynamics never held because we've proven that energy isn't conserved.

>>9693149
>>9693159
>>9693164

>creationist samefagging his own thread

>>9693149
Can't decide if you know nothing about evolution or nothing about thermodynamics.

All non-reversible processes (including living) increase entropy.
We receive a steady supply of energy from the Sun.
If you'd ever thought about it, we must also re-radiate (averaged over time) the exact same amount of energy back into interstellar space.
Otherwise, the Earth would grow steadily warmer (or cooler.)

S = Q / T
The incoming energy carries entropy, and T is the effective temperature of the Sun's photosphere.
The outgoing energy carries entropy, and T is the Earth's surface temperature -- a much lower number.
Therefore, our "excess" entropy is continually lost into space. A habitable planet needs BOTH an energy source AND an energy sink.

Now go away. Or drop dead. Or stop spewing contrafactual bullshit.

>>9693149
>evolution, of course, competes with the second of thermodynamics for the natural flow of order.
If your GOP-friendly, young-earth-creationist interpretation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics were true, air conditioners wouldn't work,

>The theory of evolution says that life becomes more complicated over time
Not true, but yeah life can get more complicated, it's because we have sun as an external energy source

>>9693149
Read this, OP.

http://nautil.us/issue/34/adaptation/how-do-you-say-life-in-physics

if Gibbs was here he’d slap the shit out of you

>>9693149
That's assuming that life makes things more complicated. Why are you making life so complicated?

>>9693338
>Life is an arrangement of matter that is INCREDIBLY low entropy, and what's more it lowers the entropy of it's surroundings by creating order and rearranging matter into forms which are distinct from the low entropy character of normal matter.
This doesn't respond to what you're replying to. The second law of thermodynamics says nothing about arbitrary arrangements of matter. It does not allow you to only focus on organisms and human structures. You have to look at the entire isolated system in order to apply it. Any decrease in entropy from life is balanced by an even larger increase in the system from powering whatever mechanism caused the decrease.

How can we reconcile ice forming with the second law of thermodynamics? That shit does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit.

>>9693554
*S = U/T +klogZ

>>9693554
>>9694318
Pretty sure only ds=dq/t and you have to use other formula for the position of s

>>9694318
What's the extra term?
dS = Q/T is correct for the light itself.
Radiation carries off more entropy than it brings in. Which is all (or should be all) that's needed to show OP his error.
The Earth is a "black box" (not thermodynamically speaking, of course) and the details of what's happening inside are irrelevant.

>>9693149
You point out that the two laws are not actually in conflict with each other, and anyone who says otherwise is a liar or a retard.

This is a troll post. The second law of thermodynamics is about energy, not “order”, you fucking idiots that feed this troll. SAGED.

>>9694358
I was just saying that's technically the complete formula for s, while ds is for what you wrote.

The OP can go fuck himself, I was just being a nag and making a correction.

The second law of thermodynamics dosent disprove evolution here's a sample video to explain it https://youtu.be/MTFY0H4EZx4

>>9693864
Holy fuck best post

>>9693149
>>9693159
>>9693178
>>9693212
>>9693226
>>9693253
>>9693279
>>9693338
>>9693342
Motherfucker, Erwin Schrödinger answered this shit in his spare time while he was busy solving quantum mechanics. Read "What is Life" and then go fuck yourself jesus fucking christ

>mathfags and engiqueers start talking about biology

>>9693149
>people continue feeding the creationistfag
JUST FUCKING STOP

>>9693200
Probably both.

>>9693286
Truth hurts.

>>9693149
>The theory of evolution, of course, competes with the second of thermodynamics for the natural flow of order.

Except it doesn't.

>>9696379
This. Sage.

>>9693206
this

i think he is trying to claim a theory about energy systems can be applied to the evolutionary system. not really a starter

>the metaphysical principles in one theory domain are different to the metaphysical principles of another theory's domain
they really don't contradict one another