/sci/ - Science & Math

>>12506019
merry christmas spacebros

>>12506016
>Scientific data is worthless without colonization.
Colonization is impossible without scientific data and robotic exploration is the best things that could have happened for mankind.

Is SLS a meme or will it go to LEO before starship? I mean it should, right?

>>12506044
absolutely a meme

>>12506031
Both can be true.

>>12506044
It's a meme regardless of if it ever reaches orbit.

>>12506019
>Nuclear Pulse Propulsion
I bet the spacenggrs won't allow a ship farting plutonium around the solar system.

>>12506031
Robots suck at exploring. Dudes would be better.

>>12506065
I’m curious if anyone worked out the math for how far away a nuclear pulse spaceship could get without being spotted

>>12506070
0 far away
Not like it matters either, nothing that isn't another NPP has the combination of throost and ISP to catch up to it

>>12506076
Yeah but we could at least have a bit of warning about the chad nuclear alien armada

>>12506070
>>12506076
No I mean if one was inbound towards us

>>12506079
Oh I was thinking the other way around, tracking in-system. No clue on incoming, but my guess is any interstellar armada would be visible many lightyears out and puzzling scientists by looking like a giant stellar outplume full of weirdo elements like beryllium and tungsten.

>>12506085
>any interstellar armada would be visible many lightyears out
famous last words

I know how this is going to sound but can we stop using the word colonization for space exploration? It doesn't help that Aerospace is dominated by rich white men. Usually, I don't let this stuff get to me but the rhetoric is self defeating.

It's like if we called space rovers something like space slaves. People would know what it really is but it makes it so cringe. The whole idea of "colonizing" another planet brings with it these preconceived ideas that any reasonable person would be against.

>>12506100
>I know how this is going to sound but can we stop using the word colonization for space exploration?

No.

It doesn't help that Aerospace is dominated by rich white men.

No apologies for being superior.

> The whole idea of "colonizing" another planet brings with it these preconceived ideas that any reasonable person would be against.

No it doesn’t.

>>12506100
Space rovere are literally robotic slaves built for our purpose, overworked past expected funcional life and left to rotten when they finally broke.

OPPORTUNITY GANG RISE UP

>>12506100
we are going to COLONIZE the universe

>>12506099
Hiding and moving interstellar distances are fairly mutually exclusive unless you're happy to act like an asteroid and take thousands of years. If you're using NPP and getting somewhere within an order of magnitude of the speed of light, particularly with a lot of ships, you're a big bright shining beacon. At some point you're visible just through your interaction with the interstellar medium even if you had magic drives.

>>12506100
huh

>>12506106
Warp bubbles would be invisible except for extremely rare possibilities of catching them bending light

>>12506100
Just say we are going to mars to pay reparations, problem solved.
>>12506106
> Leaving a trail through interstellar medium
I've seen the paper on this and it's true but there's a lot out there to search through if you are truly looking for this sort of thing. Also you need to be really close to the speed of light, going 0.7c doesn't leave much behind and will still get your chud Armada there quick enough.
Additionally, something coming straight at you is a dot, even if it is cutting swathes through background radiation.

>>12506108
What's the difference between space exploration and space colonization?

>>12506131
okay, I see, this is basically /x/ LARP'ing as /sci/

has everyone consumed the latest Star Wars and Elon tweet?

>>12506100
It is the word that means what earth intends to do. There have always been limited resources in any 'one place'. When one place starts to feel too populated, animals have split their group to find a new place or killed each other until there was no longer a population pressure. Globalization has had the unexpected side effect that people now feel like the whole earth is 'one place'. There IS more than enough here for all of us (now) but we are starting to feel the pressure of population. We need to split the group and send a group to the new place. This would always be called colonization. Fuck off to your womens studies or white guilt "professor" and tell her to suck a dick.

>>12506137
You don’t settle down and live there if you’re just exploring space.
Space exploration is a waste of time and should be mocked. Colonize or fuck off.

>>12506146
>There IS more than enough here for all of us

Speak for yourself.

>>12506131
> I've seen the paper

You've seen the paper? Do you not know how to read?

>>12506100

>>12506147
Bazinga?

>>12506137
the race of the person promoting it

>>12506114
Until it becomes a small nova by dropping out, assuming warp bubbles are even possible which is doubtful.
>>12506131
A new "dot" in the sky glowing heavily in the infrared is still pretty noticeable.

>>12506146
how about we send all of the people in favor for space colonization to live in space for several years

it would really advance the science of how genes mutate and cancer treatments from space radiation

>>12506100
Nice pasta.
Are you Italian?

>>12506179
That's... what we are doing. You think astronauts are against the space colonization?

>>12506148
We would have to be very carefully organized for the space we have to fit all of us. That organization would require a strong, centralized government and laying aside some liberties. So, yes, this will never happen. Colonization is the only solution that doesn't include some form of mass depopulation.

There is room on earth for all of us but not if we can't think of all of us. We can't.

>>12506146
Have you ever heard of the International Space Station? I've never heard it phrased as space colonization in the context of the ISS yet it's what you're describing. I wonder if this phrase is just the only way we can get midwits interested, to summon their ooga booga tribal call.

Solar bros, did we get too cocky?

I've been trying to figure out how large of a battery bank a Martian colony would need to survive a long dust storm without generating energy. A Tesla Megapack is 7.14 m x 1.60 m, 23 tonnes, and Starship can take five of them assuming a 125t payload to Mars. This equals 15 MWh worth of battery storage, but if the power consumption is the same as the ISS at 90 kWh, this would only be about a week supply of energy. Either you would need to greatly reduce energy consumption, use more energy dense batteries, or have like six Starships filled up with batteries sent to the colony.

>>12506141
Thanks for your shitty input and Reddit spacing you utter dumbcunt.
This was a widely discussed research paper at the time that proposed methods to detect unnaturally fast moving objects:
https://arxiv.org/abs/1203.3980
Recently some other researchers found at relativistic speeds it would carve lines in the cosmic background radiation for the rest of the universe to see. They found no evidence of it:
https://arxiv.org/abs/1503.05845

>>12506207
Bro just send there a small nuclear reactor

>>12506207
You'd need exactly zero batterybanks and exactly one (1) small modular reactor that can entirely fit into a single starship

>>12506179
Well you're not wrong. After a little while there would be a hearty new race of cancer-proof post-humans ready live everywhere while you and yours squabble over rocks. In a few centuries, spacers can come back and do anthropological studies like those we now do on civilizations that spent the whole of human existence inventing a stick. Whatever /pol/ may tell you, those civilizations are peopled by humans as capable as any other humans in the right conditions. Those people, however, clung to the inhospitable rocks that birthed them, never having enough resources for their brains to wake up. Their starved little bodies never fully developed. They died from maladies that modern humans would never consider a struggle. Like cancer.

So yes, please send colonizers to colonize. Maybe they'll write a book about you some day for it.

>>12506190
I don’t give a fuck about “all of us”, just myself, immediate blood relatives, and proven allies.

>>12506219
>nuclear
nuclear literally doesn't work

>>12506229
So they just sneak coal into nuclear reactors and expect no one to notice?

>>12506207
You need exactly enough batteries to last 1(one) night. You don't use batteries for long durations retard, you use methane. Literally 99% of the solar power is going into generating methane and this never occurred to you? Shut the fuck up.

>>12506231
the logistics of it are too complex

>>12506207
> 77 MW per unit
> Conveniently the perfect shape to go into a rocket
> Weight: 80t
> Self contained and passively cooled
Literally built for big red mars

>>12506236
You just stick fuel rods inside and turn it on, then throw the fuel rods in a ditch somewhere when they’re used up.

>>12506188
I'll gracefully leave with an important case study from are some anon's Lord and Savior Steve Bannon. This might not be the Star Wars canon you're used to when trying to understand "space colonization".

The Biosphere 2 experiment, lead and funded by Jabba the Hut in the early days, Steve Bannon, was an experiment meant to advance understanding of potential space biospheres that could be inhabited by humans. They built a compound in the middle of the Arizona desert to simulate conditions on other planets. The compound was aimed to be self sufficient completely.

It was a dramatically disastrous experiment that burned through millions of dollars. It did provide a bunch of data about biospheres and the scientists did achieve total food sufficiency but failed in numerous other tests. One of the most interesting findings was the psychological problems that's been well documented among astronauts.

There's a bunch of documentaries about it and it's super interesting! Happy holidays!

>>12506239
>not even on mars yet and we're already polluting it
ugh

>>12506241
>Oh no, a radioactive toxic wasteland got slightly more radioactive

Fuck off.

>>12506228
Exactly my point. Humans, especially American humans, are too selfish to survive if they are stuck on earth. If Americans could rediscover the unity and commitment to "all of us" that made the Greatest Generation so great then it would be a cake walk but their kids ruined everything for themselves and every following generation. There is no hope for humanity if we remain earthbound. We don't NEED to stay earthbound, though, so we shouldn't. Let the tribes bitch about words and rocks and trade-shells back on the mother world. There are stars to touch.

>>12506225
> those civilizations are peopled by humans

>>12506245
Humans never gave a fuck about “all of us”. Don’t delude yourself.

>>12506248
Hi, /pol/. You'll note I cited your opinion further up the post.

>>12506240
>There's a bunch of documentaries about it and it's super interesting! Happy holidays!
I'm rather fond of the documentary starring Pauly Shore.

>>12506252
the "all of us" rhetoric has always been system propaganda meant to hide the fact that a small percentage of us are disenfranchising, taking advantage of, or outright fucking over a large percentage of us

>>12506252
They've redefined "us" lots of times. The WW2 "us" was everyone in the USA. The Roman "us" was everyone in Rome. Wherever there was a successful, growing and stable nation, it was because a group of people all decided that they were all an "us". At all other times, your observation has been true. Selfishness has ruined many more nations than have ever grown great. I'd say that 9/10 times, your view is the safest one. It is the rule that people will be selfish. The exceptions are why exceptional civilizations have existed. There are no exceptional nations on earth right now but a seed of people with a strong enough belief in their shared values might spawn one on another world.

>>12506100

petition to rename Mars to the WHITE planet due to the presence of polar ice caps.

>>12506232
So what happens when you arrive on Mars and before you're able to produce any solar power in order to generate methane, there is a month long dust storm?

In before:
Robotic in situ generation or some other bullshit

>>12506271
It should be the pink planet, as it is both red and white.

>>12506265
>The WW2 "us" was everyone in the USA

Some of “us” are more “us” than others, then, since joggers were still discriminated against legally.

> The Roman "us" was everyone in Rome.

People from outside the Italian peninsula weren’t considered Roman citizens for centuries

>>12506273
Cargo missions go before manned missions. Just take some reserve fuel.
>muh robots
Shut your flapping nigger holster you fucking retard.

>>12506273
lmao what's this webm from

>>12506222
Post me a site where you can buy ready made small nuclear reactors
Oh right it hasn’t been legal to build reactors for 40 fucking years and I don’t see Spacex ever building their own
They aren’t going to buy 500 million dollar reactors from navy contractors either

Venture Starmas!

>>12506067
Then how are robots exploring so much more of the solar system than humans?

>>12506273
You use the decades of solar panel data there to show dust storms are non-issues

>>12506067
Robot are more cost efficient. Meatbag will just pollute the sample they put into the machine anyway.

>>12506327
And that's a good thing

merry christmas fellow sfg frens

posted by Zubrin

>>12506326
But a dust storm killed Opportunity. Curiosity uses an RTG because of that.

>>12506052
>oh god oh fuck he has a gun

>>12506325
Because we haven’t sent humans. Humans could do so much more than dumb little RC cars did on Mars in years in the space of a week

>>12506350
those rc cars tend to thrive a lot better on mars than humans do, though

I had a dream last night where I asked Jeff point blank what's taking so long. He told me they would deliver the first flight BE4 this summer, and new glenn would fly two years later

>>12506347
You just stockpile liquid methane for burning in a generator
Or maybe wind turbines if they are worthwhile

What's the best way to play kerbal campaign? I landed on minimus and then stopped playing.

>>12506375
Go for the most ludicrous mission possible, because it's super satisfying when it goes well

>>12506379
This. Also its hours of fun when you have to do a rescue mission.

>>12506317
>Just send hundreds of tons of fuel, bro.
You're actually retarded and you're now contradicting yourself. Sending a bunch of reserve fuel isn't much different than sending batteries despite the difference in energy density. The latter is much more useful in case they fuck up in situ generation at any point or if it just takes a long time to bring online, which it will.

There is a zero percent chance that they're only going to have a battery backup to last only a single night if they go with solar power, that's ridiculous.

>>12506434
You don't need hundreds of tons of reserve fuel. You need, in the absolute worst case extremely unlikely scenario, enough energy to maintain life support to the ships for the length of a storm.
Batteries only need to supply energy for a night because that's how days work. You know how much sun you get for the day, battery keeps you going at night. More is inefficient and unnecessary since methane makes a better long term emergency storage, and your energy curves are very predictable because the only significant weather events are the very occasional dust storms.

>>12506451
You must have never tried to transition to solar power in Factorio

>>12506465
While you were playing video games Elon was converting whole islands to solar and Earth is a more dynamic, less predictable environment for solar than Mars.

>>12506472
Solar is also way better on Earth than it is on Mars. A solar-only electricity grid is essentially impossible.

>>12506114
Alcubierre warp drives lens cosmic radiation as well as normal light, focusing it onto the hull of your ship. After a prolonged period of travel the surface of your specially designed warpship would be white hot.

>>12506483
>Solar is also way better on Earth than it is on Mars.
Variance is much more important than peak performance. Mars is a better environment. It doesn't matter that performance is lower because Starship has capacity to spare and area doesn't matter because Mars is literally nothing but free real estate.
> A solar-only electricity grid is essentially impossible.
Good thing I already described every element necessary to make it work, retard.

Are the kerbal DLC worth it?
Making history and expansion

>>12506451
In that situation you're basically using reserve fuel as a crutch for a improperly designed solar system instead of just for emergencies. The weather on Mars may be less dynamic but there will still be a lot of suboptimal days and you would either have to add a lot more solar panels, with a large weight penalty, to still generate enough power during them or just have a properly sized battery bank which would allow you to not dig into the reserve fuel. Having a larger battery bank has better redundancy and doesn't require in situ methane generation to ensure basic survival.

Also if the energy demand is just for life support on a single ship during a long storm instead of keeping the whole colony going, the batteries may fit in a single Starship.

>>12506509
>In that situation you're basically using reserve fuel as a crutch for a improperly designed solar system instead of just for emergencies.
I was specifically talking about emergency reserves you braindead fuck. You don't need it for general day to day operations. Solar and batteries handle non-anomalous conditions just fine.

>>12506299
All true. None of this contradicts my claim.

>>12506507
I like expansion. On sale right now they're very worth it

>>12506487
Solar will never work retard

>>12506509
Solar and batteries cannot deal with once in a 100 year dust storm blackout for 6 months....
But a large stockpile of liquid methane as well as minimal wind turbines will maintain a baseline of power during that period

Every other dust storm is negligible, it doesn’t matter if they only produce half power for a while

>solar bad!
i think we should take oil to mars

>>12506530
If that's the case, you must genuinely brain damaged because you can't seem to form a cogent argument that actually demonstrates the fact.

>>12506515
>You don't need it for general day to day operations
You obviously do if your battery bank only lasts a single night during optimal weather. You have no idea what you're talking about, you made a stupid claim about battery bank sizing and now you're trying to defend it with the retarded idea that NASA or SpaceX would dig into reserve fuel anytime there is a small dust storm instead of just having a larger battery bank.

>>12506537
This. We can combust it using cabin air. Humans don't need air. It's a giant conspiracy by the SCUBA industry after all.

>>12506546
A battery is not long term surplus storage. They experience significant losses over time, so reserving more power than you use over a single daily cycle is actively counter productive. Fuel reserves are a one time penalty until you experience an event and need to restore them. Reserving extra power in a battery requires overproducing that amount in a recurring fashion constantly or you're SOL, and still does not cover true emergencies. Your ideas make no sense.

>>12506537
Mars will have oil but deep drilling for abiotic oil will have to wait

>>12506019
Based edition

>>12506277
Based Zubrin. What happened to good space movies that are about space?

>>12506239
You not helping you argument. We should be using reactor designs that burn the fuel efficiently, something an MSR would be a candidate for. Of course having it operate in a vacuum or low atmosphere environment needs to be addressed.

>>12506583
I liked first man and the right stuff

Energy production general. Every time

>>12506557
There is literally no properly sized solar plus storage system on Earth that has a battery bank only enough to last a single night and the same thing goes for Mars because any suboptimal weather would disrupt generation and force you to get energy elsewhere. Battery banks are sized to supply some power even over cloudy days because it's more efficient to have larger batteries than to have many more solar panels operating during inefficient conditions. Drain from storing energy is fairly negligible, around 1% a day for lithium ion assuming you're going to keep the structure housing them at a stable temperature. This is basic system sizing.

>>12506019

>>12506583
>contrasting the soulless white bread Apollo program to optimistic yet apprehensive hollywood interpretations of the human condition
Ignoring 96% of the world population just so you can pander to the 4% that happens to be white men is bad business. Why should society mold itself around white male tastes, desires, wants, needs, etc. when there are literally billions of people out there waiting to have their voices heard?
In case zubrin hadn't noticed, the future is here, and it's filled with color.

>>12506321
https://youtu.be/YNwVrWGQneg

>>12506608
If it's so profitable then why was it cancelled?

>>12506606
It's a bit shocking how well this test worked

>Apollo
>soulless
Apollo was the most soulful space project, or at least among the most soulful. It started with a space agency that could barely send a person to space, and ended with the capability to go to the moon and beyond. All while pushing the boundaries of what was possible.

>teehee guys we spent a week on the moon how powerful we are
>*never goes back*

>>12506583
Has he shit-talked Ad Astra?

Guys I don't think martian houses will have AC wiring at all

>>12506636
Isn't it pretty cold on Mars? You'd probably just need heating

>>12506603
>There is literally no properly sized solar plus storage system on Earth that has a battery bank only enough to last a single night
First of all, you're talking about home battery systems at that point because very few grids (and all of those being microgrids) have a full night's reserve of battery power. Second, a 1% vampire drain is not insignificant if you're keeping large power reserves. If you want to keep 24.4 hours of reserve on tap you need to overproduce by 2% over the course of every remaining 12.2 energy producing period just to outpace drain. If you want a few days of reserve power you're looking at 6+%. It makes no sense to rely on battery reserves for such extended reserve periods when all you really need to do is save all of that energy and instead tap into sabatier reserves during extended outages.

>>12506646
Nice bait, triggered me

>>12506583
They need to make space/sci-fi fiction about space/tech/work more, but most that come out ar romance or nonsense family drama.
Zubrins comment has been my criticism of sci-fi genre for long time.

>>12506237
How the hell would you even get that out of the rocket? I suppose they would just leave it in there.

>>12506325
Because JFK pussied out and canceled Orion.

>>12506608
>The single most ambitious space venture of all time
>"Soulless" because it was accomplished by white men
Just admit that you resent us.

Merry Christmas Anons :)

>>12506684
HO HO HONK

>>12506662
>but most that come out ar romance or nonsense family drama.
I think that's due to three big reasons. Over prevalence of special effects, people wanting to be more aware of social issues, and 40 years of tolling around in LEO

>>12506588
>You not helping you argument. We should be using reactor designs that burn the fuel efficiently, something an MSR would be a candidate for

Submarines have some black magic dark age of technology shit that lets them burn fuel rods for over twenty years

>>12506509
your energy needs are completely dominated by fuel production (water electrolysis)
if the weather is cloudy, turn it off

>>12506647
Obviously I was talking about off-grid systems and needing to overproduce by 6% is nothing compared to needing to overproduce much more than that during a cloudy day because of an improperly sized battery bank, let alone a dust storm with almost no sunlight, or loss from the Sabatier reaction which would only have around 14% efficiency for solar to methane.

This retarded conversation is going in circles, I don't know why you just won't own up to the fact that you're wrong about sizing at the very least. We are also not talking about the period of time after methane production is already set up, but even then and even if it wasn't less efficient, it makes sense to have a larger battery bank so you wouldn't have to spin up turbines during ineffective conditions. There's a reason why batteries are rapidly become more popular than peaking power plants.

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/10/9/3144

you're all retarded omg

>>12506703
Actually that brings up another solution. The peak periods of a dust storm are still around 1% standard sunlight, if your solar panel demand is almost entirely in fuel production it's possible that the same full panel production under 1% conditions would sustain life support anyway.

>>12506723
yes, that is the fucking plan
battery storage for constant electrolysis is prohibitive, so you'd only run that part of ISRU during sunny days
this means that you need hydrogen storage, because although the sabatier reaction doesn't require power, it does suffer damage if you turn it off

>>12506714
>There's a reason why batteries are rapidly become more popular than peaking power plants.
Because that purpose is covered well within the daily conditions I'm talking about. Peaker plant replacement batteries like Tesla's installation in Australia don't cover the area's usage over significant periods, they cover long enough to get baseload power on line which is slower but more efficient than peakers. It's the first step before batteries cover daily usage, which is the next milestone. Batteries will never be tasked with keeping days or weeks of power on hand, it's more practical to keep some kind of baseload reserve for those purposes.

>>12506608
Imagine sitting on /sfg/ for the sole purpose of screeching about white men on fucking Christmas morning. I don't even think you're trolling anymore. You legitimately have problems. I hope you get murdered by a black guy. Merry Christmas!

>>12506739
what's the fastest you can discharge a whole battery?

>>12506703
>not letting the electrolysis run in reverse to provide power

>>12506749
Does it have to be a controlled discharge or does an explosion count

>>12506606
with real nukes and people wouldnt the g load be fatal?

>>12506225
>Whatever /pol/ may tell you, those civilizations are peopled by humans as capable as any other humans in the right conditions.
lol

>>12506749
I mean technically the energy release can be almost instantaneous, but this trick is typically accompanied by a huge fireball lmao

>>12506756
that's why orion craft have an elaborate shock absorption system so the acceleration would be made tolerable. Would probably still be pretty intense though.

>>12506611
aahaha

>>12506751
>burning methane to crack water in order to make methane to burn it to crack water to make methane to burn it
>>12506756
just make it bigger lmao

no, seriously, it gets better if you make it bigger and heavier, but go read the atmoic rockets page

>>12506765
As long as your shocks are good it shouldn't be bad, Orion averages out to well under 1g throost

>>12506768
what's the trade off, just spreading the acceleration out over time instead of all at once? does that decrease efficiency?

>>12506739
>Batteries will never be tasked with keeping days or weeks of power on hand
They already are in almost every off-grid installation. The only reason why Tesla doesn't use their grid-tied battery storage to provide power over days instead of hours isn't because it's not technically possible but because they're doing it to profit from extra demand during peak hours and most of the grid isn't solar power so there isn't any need to make up power during bad weather. If the grid only ran on solar power, the batteries would be sized to provide power over multiple days, that's just a fact.

>>12506782
no, it's fucking heavy

>>12506782
It'll increase the vehicle's dry mass, but the orion drive is so efficient that it doesn't matter

>>12506765
You’re telling me that inertial dampers from Star Wars got invented?

>>12506799
No, just regular shock absorbers, like you have in your car. But bigger.

>>12506608
At some point in the near future we're going to have a genocide that makes the Holocaust look like a joke, and you'll deserve it.

>>12506788
>They already are in almost every off-grid installation.
Again these are much smaller scale operations. No one will ever do this on a large scale because it's economically broken to consistently overproduce power to overcome vampire drain just so you can have days of emergency reserve.
> The only reason why Tesla doesn't use their grid-tied battery storage to provide power over days instead of hours isn't because it's not technically possible
It literally isn't technically possible. They would have to massively downscale the region to which they provide support in order to provide days of power.

>>12506799
>>12506799
>>12506782
>>12506756
here you go retard
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/enginelist3.php#boomboom

Merry Christmas everyone!

>>12506240
The only failure of the Biosphere experiment was that they though they could mantain a closed system, resorting to recycling, well, thermodynamics won, you can`t. You have to inyect oxygen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
But, guess what. There`s water in Mars!! And the Moon!!! And we can get oxygen from there!!! We just need electricity!

>>12506237
yes

>>12506826
Since the biosphere isn't thermodynamically closed it's not a thermodynamic problem, however it is impossible all the same. Closed systems are the ultimate cuckshed. Mars has everything. The moon is a semi-cuckshed.

>>12506815
atomic rockets is the largest concentration of autism outside of the nsf forum lmao

>>12506843
At least one /sfg/ anon back Atomic Rockets on Patreon so it's a full closed-cycle autism feedback loop.

What songs would their Christmas album have?

>>12506813
Just fucking admit you're wrong, you god damn retard. Six percent overproduction is barely anything and completely necessary as it's much more efficient than using solar energy to produce methane as I already shown. Batteries are not sized for multiple days because of emergencies, it's because weather can greatly lower efficiency and mean you produce virtually no power during the day so you have to scale systems to last through multiple days. Clouds can reduce output down to just 10% of that on a clear day.
>It literally isn't technically possible. They would have to massively downscale the region to which they provide support in order to provide days of power.
They would simply need to add more batteries. It's completely possible, not yet economically viable but that's a completely different argument than what you're making.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/08/solar-panels-work-cloudy-days-just-less-effectively/

>>12506855

>>12506839
>Closed systems are the ultimate cuckshed. Mars has everything.
Yep

>>12506608
Because almost every scientific discovery, technological invention/innovation and major breakthrough in general was done or discovered by white men.

The real question should be why do white men pander to the rest when they do so little for us and ask so much in return?

wait, if closed systems are impossible then how does the Earth keep working

>>12506876
Not a closed system

>>12506856
>Six percent overproduction is barely anything and completely necessary as it's much more efficient than using solar energy to produce methane as I already
shown.
If you need to kick into reserve power for three days out of a hundred and you're overproducing by 6% to maintain that, the efficiency of your reserve system is significantly lower than a one time investment in methane generation. To say nothing of the fact that you're producing the methane anyway.
>They would simply need to add more batteries. It's completely possible, not yet economically viable
The battery exists in its current state because that is the economically viable purpose to which it is suited. It doesn't matter whether you phrase it that the same battery would need to support much fewer people or that the current battery would need to be a couple orders of magnitude larger: the end result is that providing days of power is outside the technical possibility of the battery as it stands, and outside the viable usage of batteries as a whole.

>>12506699
There's also the fact that scifi purely about technical problems only rarely achieves mass commercial success. You need a social element to hook the normies. But really, Apollo 13 showed us that you can do both in the same movie. The farting in LEO with chemical rockets for 40 years is why the hard scifi problem solving aspect is dead.

>>12506870
>The real question should be why do white men pander to the rest when they do so little for us and ask so much in return?
Jewish brainwashing.

>>12506880
>Just increase the amount of solar panels you need by multiple times in order to create methane for power generation instead of having a slightly larger battery and 6% more panels.

I'm done. You're either trolling at this point or the most abysmally stupid person I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with.

>>12506913
>Just increase the amount of solar panels you need by multiple times in order to create methane for power generation
The solar panels for that are budgeted into the fact that you need to produce thousands of tons of methane to begin with. You will almost certainly never need more than a rounding error's worth of methane employed for reserve power. The baseline operation of the colony itself creates the emergency reserve. There's no extra. That's the whole point.

>>12506913
no, you're creating methane to fuel your rocket to send it back so it's not taking up space on your landing pads
using it to save yourself if the dust storm of the century springs up is common sense
note that you land with enough methane and oxygen in your tanks to survive for quite a while

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8qrwON1-zE

Space suicides will become an issue for any private company sending random tourists into space. If you're a miserable rich boomer then how could you possibly top the experience of going to space and then jumping out on reentry with no one up there to stop you?

>>12506944
MOOSE

>>12506207
Martian nights last more than a week?

>>12506947
dust storms do, but it's not an issue because you've sized your solar panels for propellant production instead of life support and even at 0.5% capacity you're still overproducing for life support

>>12506273
You deploy solar panels in terrifying winds risking getting blow awa- wait.

>>12506347
Opportunity was killed because
>it did not have excess energy production capacity
>it was in a place prone to acquire dust
Neither will be true for a solar park meant to produce literal megawatts of excess power thrown at melting glaciers and cracking water.

>>12506950
imagine deploying acres and acres of solar panels in your cybertruck in a pitch black sandstorm
in the back of your mind the whole time is the thought that there's no way this is going to do anything at all but the reports are coming back from home saying that a steady trickle of power is starting to come in
you're all going to make it

I binged the last three Starship presentations last night. The thing that stuck with me the most was how Elon touted that BFR 17's engine out capabilities on landing could make it as safe as an airliner. Is this remotely possible?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdUX3ypDVwI 7:30

>>12506966
just bellyflop into the ocean lmao

>>12506960
>you see that green glow too?
>looks like a pyramid...?

>>12506767
Reversible fuel cell = eternal battery

>>12506966
Airliners have a century worth of regulation and engineering behind them so its doubtful that level will be achieved, but look, helicopters, or private aviation tier...

>>12506966
Well we just saw SN8 suffer one and a half engine out during landing

>>12506922
They're not budgeted into anything. You objectively need many more panels if you decide to use methane generated using the panels for power instead of propulsion or you would constantly burn through your supply if you're unable to go through a single cloudy day on battery power.

Mars will never use methane as a source of power unless it's an emergency or they don't care how inefficient their system is. It's fucking retarded to take electricity, turn into methane, and then turn it back into electricity again. Not only is solar to methane only 14% efficient, methane to electricity is only like 30% unless it's a combined cycle turbine and even then it's at most 60%. You would need multiple times the amount of panels if you didn't have a properly sized battery backup.

>>12506980
>emergency
There's your keyword. Major fault preventing ALL power from the panels? Turn on the emergency generators and make use of some of the hundreds of tons of oxidizer and fuel you have stashed until you fix it. To not have that ability is ridiculous.

>>12506975
>reversible fuel cell
no such thing exists for methane, anon
the way it works for methane is that you crack water into hydrogen and oxygen and then liquify the oxygen and put it in a tank
you then combine the hydrogen with carbon dioxide in a catalytic chamber, which produces water and methane
you separate and liquify this water and pour it back into your electrolysis system and then liquify the methane and put it in a tank
this process is not reversible

>>12506980
yes, you have two systems
solar -> methane --emergency-> life support
solar -> battery -> life support

Just power the damn thing with Naquadah generators.
I don't see what's the big deal.

>>12506669
It would be shipped in parts and built onsite

>>12506978
Not engine issue but fuel pressure. If fuel pressure hours out even thousand engines won't save it

>>12506978
Except that wasn't an "engine out", it was a "fuel out". Or rather a fuel pressure out. And it was in the very first flight test of the header tanks, so it's going to get worked on.
>>12506980
>emergency
Nobody is suggesting that the normal power should go through electricity -> sabatier -> methane -> electricity. Just for emergencies that stop the normal production of electricity.
>>12506993
>this process is not reversible
You can still burn the methane and oxygen in an engine to run a generator. It's just not as straightforward as a fuel cell.

>>12506988
>To not have that ability is ridiculous.
This was never what the argument was about. I support having redundant power generation capability, which is why the battery bank should be oversized because the inverse argument can be made, your turbine broke and there's a storm coming. It wouldn't take much of an increase in battery size to provide enough power to a small area with life support during some epic dust storm.

>>12507012
yes, although you'd use a turbine and not an ICE

>>12507013
>your turbine broke
Only one of them? Why bring one when you can bring two for twice the price?
>>12507015
I specified neither. "engine" is a more generic term than you seem to be reading it. That's why ICE has the I and C, to say which kind of engine.

Merry christmas lads

>>12506966
not possible at all

>>12506980
> you would constantly burn through your supply if you're unable to go through a single cloudy day on battery power.
You need to stop thinking about Mars like it's Earth. The deadest desert on Earth is barely approaching Martian conditions. Major dust storms are a once a cycle problem at most, minor ones won't even close down production. There are no fucking cloudy days.

>>12507018
right

>>12506083
It'll glow like a torch in the sky as it decelerates. We won't have time to act though - whatever they dropped before starting the 10%c -> desired orbital velocity in the solar system burn is going to hit us very soon after that, and hard, really hard.

>>12506782
You are looking at a propulsion with efficiency sufficient for interstellar flight in human lifetime and whose problem is building a ship, out of steel and concrete, big and heavy enough to survive it.

>>12507020
Merry Christmas, /sfg/

>>12506662
Because normies don't actually care about space
>>12506887
expendable rockets and hydrolox first stages*

>>12507048
>tfw spending time with schizos and autists on 4chan instead of being a normal person getting shitfaced on meth and sex
>every year
>year after year

>>12506782
>just spreading the acceleration out over time instead of all at once?
That's called Medusa. The basic idea is to throw the bombs at a sail in front of the ship instead of a plate behind it and use pulleys to spread the thrust over time.

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/enginelist3.php#medusa

>>12507047
incorrect
the hard part is convincing the US military that you're not trying to nuke the world

>>12507051
Normal people don't do meth anon

>>12507062
*normal people only do meth if their doctor tells them to

>>12506855
>Jingle Bell Rocket
>Baby, It's Cold Inside (LOX)

>>12507028
Mars has clouds, even fog, and most importantly, dust. A minor dust storm, even a slight haze in the air will greatly reduce panel efficiency. There's no way around this, you have to have backup power to last through these period and methane is retarded for this purpose for aforementioned reasons. This shouldn't count as an emergency because it will be common unless you greatly oversize the panels instead of the battery.

If you want to see just how much weather variance Mars has, take a look through this site.
https://www.msss.com/msss_images/subject/weather_reports.html

>>12506855
>God Rest Ye Merry Hypergols
>Oh Saturn V (Oh Holy Night)
>I Saw Aldrin Punching Flat-Earthers (underneath the Missile Row last night)

>>12507051
Pathetic life. Go be with your family

>>12507057
Medusa promises based isp, but how hard would it be to actually build the sail component? the reflector dish looks fuckhuge. Could it possibly be assembled in parts by a starship?

>>12507058
Or getting Congress to fund the US military building it themselves. Someone figure out which congresscritters benefit most from uranium mining.

>>12507075
Orion seems infinitely more feasible from an engineering perspective.

>>12507067
Size the solar panels accordingly so that average power produced satisfies demand. It's also cheaper, easier, and most importantly available than any other alternative that may be proposed.

>>12507075
>the reflector dish looks fuckhuge. Could it possibly be assembled in parts by a starship?
Yeah, probably. Imagine a stack of 8m hexagonal lead plates held together by lead hinges.

>>12507050
>Because normies don't actually care about space

>>12507075
And what fucking material could the “sail” and “ropes” be made of? The lines in particular have to both withstand a nuclear blast and pull the entire craft forward.

Furthermore, after the explosion wouldn’t the sail try to collapse inward?

>>12507081
Yeah, the ISP promised by Medusa is insane, but it would also require some insane engineering if it’s possible at all

>>12506993
>no such thing exists for methane, anon
Who is talking about methane? I'm talking about using a reversible fuel cell as a battery for when there's no sun

>>12507067
>Mars has clouds, even fog, and most importantly, dust.
The first two are minor enough to disregard, however you might want to present it otherwise for the sake of your argument. Because Mars does have an environment and atmosphere to speak of, of course if you pick over it with a fine toothed scientific comb you can find all manner of things to talk about, but you could say the same even of tenuously atmosphered moons. It isn't worth bringing up. The latter is of course a fact of Martian life, you size appropriately for a certain amount of occlusion and regularly blow off the excess. Of course it's not an emergency, because if you have a functioning colony there is no reason dust buildup would ever be allowed to get beyond safe levels for regular production.

>>12506966
Why does the tanker have normal-sized tanks? That fairing space is literally useless. Either remove it entirely or fill the entire thing up with fuel

>>12507096
The ropes are my issue with Medusa. It's possible if problematic to conceive of a system which replenishes a graphite layer over the canopy, the rigging is much more complicated. And of course both are much more difficult and less durable than a steel plate.

>>12507102
Probably so they can use the same ships instead of designing testing and building different vehicles. Each tanker flight, if its a standard starship, also counts as starship flight and can uncover reliability issues. If it were somehow notably different vehicle it'll still work, but not as neatly. Specialized tanker design does not yield that much more performance, actually. There is reduction in flights, but not as big as one would hope for.

>>12507110
Also it means every cargo Starship with the ASS 2 ASS ullage motors is a tanker, so we'd only have two variants of Starship, cargo/tanker and crew.

>>12506782
Orion is overrated,
Fans mostly like it because it look simple and it trigger their wish for a cheap & cool engine held down by evil red tape. Not because it would actually be practical.
Even if you dismiss the silly idea of using it for take off from the surface it would be at least as complicated as any other conventional engines except with a bigger starting size, less room for redundancy and many other limitation.

It cannot be throttled easily, it have a single point of failure, it would be extremely dangerous to use in any orbit with important infrastructure, it will generate lot of radioactive debris near planets unless you manage to have unrealistically perfect conversion bombs and refueling it require to be able to produce said nuke.

All in all, you are better investing in nuclear thermal engine capable of using ISRU for refueling.

>>12507116
>It cannot be throttled easily
Just modify the pulse rate you goober.

>>12507118
You are not going to be doing precise maneuver like that.

>>12507123
Ching chong ping pong go back to your fucking country.

>>12507123
Footfall has a nice depiction of Orion. You could read it.

>>12507084
That won't work unless the battery capacity is enough to get you through multiple days where panel output is cut in half despite the average of production being more than enough.
>>12507101
They're not minor enough to disregard, some areas on Mars have seen cloudy days, not hours and this can cut panel output to 1/10th. Obviously this is something they have to factor in and it's absurd to suggest otherwise. You can clean the panels from dust but if there's any haze your output is significantly reduced and you can't do anything about it. Again, this is common on Mars, look through the satellite or rover images.

How much would you like to bet that the solar system on mars, unless it's supported by a nuclear reactor, will have a battery bank that will last more than a single night without any other input?

>>12507116
The only thing impractical about Orion is the political situation around constructing one. In all other respects it stands out in its conceivability, which is an aspect lacking in anything which could be proposed to compete with it. Even plasma sails which have a competitive level of memability are limited by directionality and the speed of the solar wind.

>>12507141
I’d also wager that it would be expensive as fuck. Also when fusion comes online it’ll BTFO Orion

>>12507110
>instead of designing testing and building different vehicles
Don't start with this dumb bullshit

>>12507133
Martian clouds are extremely tenuous. They aren't going to force the colony into reserve power. You insist on thinking about everything on Earth as if it were directly equivalent to Earth, despite having a hundredth the atmosphere.
>How much would you like to bet that the solar system on mars, unless it's supported by a nuclear reactor, will have a battery bank that will last more than a single night without any other input?
I can tell you there's a 0% chance of any nuclear reactor and there is a 100% necessity for some kind of system which can potentially handle months of independent power reserves, which is not batteries. And I can tell you it's an objective fact that the operation of the colony will itself provide enough fuel reserves to provide for that eventuality. Beyond that, I can't say. Elon loves batteries, I do too. He also understands their limitations. I doubt he will try to shoehorn them into providing weeks of power given that that is simultaneously too much of an undertaking (batteries are heavy and the first cargo missions will not be on the scale of later ones) and too little of one (you need to plan for the worst case scenario storm, which is beyond the practical ability of batteries).

>>12507194
>Martian clouds are extremely tenuous. They aren't going to force the colony into reserve power.
What about dust storms?

>>12507179
Orion can use fusion bombs too, and we already know how to make those.

Guys, STARSHIP ISN'T GOING TO MARS

It needs to be a starship with a nuclear vapor engine anda detachable nose cone

>>12507197
>What about dust storms?
I'm pretty sure the reply string has about 50 posts on dust storms by now.

>>12507204
You're not Starship's dad you can't tell it where to go.

>>12507199
Oh so there you go we’re good. Even project Daedalus uses a faux-Orion design.

>>12507213
>>12507202
WRONG ONE GODDAMNIT

>>12506237
>Wanting to use a light water reactor on Mars
That also doesn't include the steam plant and turbine
The solid fuel fast reactor heat pipe cooled family of design seems to hold the best bet for transporting and setting up power for Mars

Why is it that whenever someone comes up with a brilliant plan to go to Mars that is just a little bit absurd, someone in /sfg/ will know it by name due to the fact that it was an actual plan concoted decades ago?

We need some out of box thinking, the current state is not good

>>12507217
>turbine
Free piston counter-balanced whatever stirling engine. Just design a pair that can be put together simply by one thing plugging into the other.

>>12507227
Musk's plans are out of box thinking. He will launch many football size field solar panels. Where as everyone else was trying to rely on government to give billions for nuclears that may or may not come in the next 50 years.

>>12507227
Mars plans are very orthodox. They fall into the Mars Direct-derived camp, or the Apollo-era camp.

Think of the family tree of mars missions. In 1990, you have Mars direct.
>In 1993, you would have Mars DRM 1, which is just Mars Direct with an Earth Return Vehicle in orbit
>1997 sees Mars DRM 3, which sees 4 landers instead of 2. It uses 8 launches in total and nuclear rockets
>Mars DRM V: The Phantom Pain came out in 2009. It used the Ares V to launch an ascent vehicle and a habitat into LEO, where they met 2 nuclear tugs. A separate Mars Transit Vehicle is built with the tugs abs a nuclear drop tank.

>>12507194
Do you have any idea how large of solar array you already need for just propellant production? It's like 1MW or greater, which is a massive undertaking for a small crew in a completely alien environment. If you have to dig into your supply in order to survive a long dust storm, you're going to miss your return window and get stuck on Mars unless you install even more panels for this situation which in that case the total amount would probably be enough to sustain life support during a massive dust storm and you wouldn't need the methane for energy. It's so inefficient that it basically becomes pointless.

A small nuclear reactor is a better idea than needing to install a bunch of solar panels in a short period of time along with batteries, but both of them are a better idea than trying to use methane for energy. It wouldn't make sense to produce propellant during a storm and all that capacity can go to life support.

>>12507231
>football size field solar panels
that shit the bed the first time the dust storm comes around kek

>>12507239
Why would they shit the bed?

>>12506019
Unironicall question.
Suppose you could be naked on space, on ingravity.
would farting serve as propulsion? would you spin like a farting idiot?

>>12507252
Assuming no strong gravity pull, yes. A very minute form of "propulsion."

>>12507252
thrust-vectoring sphincter-based RCS

>>12507237
>Do you have any idea how large of solar array you already need for just propellant production?
Yes, and that does mean that when you need to cut production you will have a massive surplus until you're deep into the worst dust storm conditions.
>If you have to dig into your supply in order to survive a long dust storm, you're going to miss your return window and get stuck on Mars
Unlikely. You'll be sipping power on life support during that time and getting as much out of the solar panels as you can, which can still be quite significant.
>A small nuclear reactor is a better idea
It doesn't matter how good of an idea it is. Elon doesn't have a small nuclear reactor. No one has a small nuclear reactor. Certain elements saw fit to axe the means that would give us the small nuclear reactors we would like to have, and so we do not fucking have them. And no, Kilopower is not a replacement. Kilopower is significantly worse than panels
>It wouldn't make sense to produce propellant during a storm and all that capacity can go to life support.
As stated about a thousand times, the only time you would need to dip into reserves is when you lack the ability to draw from anything else. It is not going to be a common event that a massive solar array, scaled to supply thousands of tons of methane over the full course of a cycle, is going to be so restricted that it cannot supply life support.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGtrdBjFlLc
comfy hullo

>>12507255
I bet you could get decent movement by shaking up a bottle of soda and opening it

>>12507116
Cope. I bet you hate nuclear energy too

>>12507273
Space clown seltzer-powered MMU when

>Until [Haumea] was given a permanent name, the Caltech discovery team used the nickname "Santa" among themselves, because they had discovered Haumea on December 28, 2004, just after Christmas.

>>12507262
>You'll be sipping power on life support during that time and getting as much out of the solar panels as you can, which can still be quite significant.
Kek, if only there was some way to store energy without suffering losses from methane energy production and could provide this limited amount of power, if it's even needed. A 1 MW generator would take up almost the entire Starship payload compartment, at that point you could send a Starship full of batteries which could sustain life support or just send more solar panels to produce energy during storms.

>>12507128
>footfall
Probably if I pretend it look nothing like this and is soft-SF.
The basic concept of the story is interesting.

If you are interested in Prey/Hunter mentality you have this short story (3 chapters)
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/14843/prey

>>12507141
No the political aspect is just a cheap excuse to handwave why it's not there yet while ignoring all the other reasons.
Don't confuse conceivability with practicality or usefulness.
Because just "blowing up bombs behind a shield" isn't going to be useful.

On a fundamental level a Nuclear Pulse vehicle require to ignite a directional nuclear bomb/pellet in precise burst, each containers require a perfect shape and not create debris.
You are just moving the complexity from the engine to the bombs/pellet and hope there will be no debris generated or no need to throttle.

A more conventional Nuclear Thermal Rocket would still be a sophisticated engine that produce a nuclear plume you need to manage but as you control the scale, the size and control the reaction continuously it would be much more manageable and easier to make redundant, along the ability to refuel with eventually different type of propellant.

>plasma sail
If we are here to compare meme drive, then laser powered solarmoth win, close behind the Emdrive.

>>12507283
Are you stupid? The pic say otherwise. I consider nuclear fusion to be the future even down on Earth. Only using other type of generators if they are more useful for different needs and environment.

>>12507302
>5"/54 caliber Mark 45 gun
Would that even be a practical weapon in space? I thought that missiles would be preferred

>>12506100
NO NONWHITES HAVE *EVER* LEFT LOW EARTH ORBIT LMAO COPE FAGGOT

>have constellation of satellites on Mars
>satellites store energy in batteries that lasts 20-30 years (current year technology)
>satellites have solar panels that collect power
>use it as dual purpose of beaming internet and as beaming electricity/heat to melt ground/ice/etc
>tiny amount of atmosphere so very little distortion from laser
What sort of issues would it encounter and what sort of solution do you propose to fix this problem?

>>12507310
>Space warfare
Ho boy that's one hell of a topic.
Some consider that simple laser will destroy any missiles, as well as weak unprotected part from light second away, essentially "warship" pointless.

Depending of the setting, you can either have an extermination war using relativistic kill missiles, or a war where everyone is afraid of debris and do everything they can to disable each other without creating debris (that's by the way my recipe if I want to justify space marine boarding ship/station)

You can try playing "Children of a dead Earth" (CHODE) but it is biased to make every weapon useful and you won't have the kind of AI a real navy would have.

>>12507315
>What sort of issues would it encounter and what sort of solution do you propose to fix this problem?
Seems like an awfully convenient weapons platform to blast anyone on Mars unless a very broad low-power-area-density beam was used

>>12507323
Also used as defense against missiles launched from earth to secure Martian independence

>>12507302
>>>plasma sail
>If we are here to compare meme drive, then laser powered solarmoth win, close behind the Emdrive.
A 30m radius plasma sail gets 6kN out of a couple hundred meters of insulated wire and 90kA with no onboard propellant. Beamed laser-thermal is nice but requires way more infrastructure and LH2 tankage.

>>12507315
>What sort of issues would it encounter
D*st s*orms

So I was reading the wikipedia summary of The Midnight Sky to see what the fuss was about.
And what do you know, it features an interracial relationship between Clooney's astronaut daughter and a nigger. Oh she's pregnant too of course, and their half-nigger child is the future of the human race on Jupiter's moon. Like clockwork, Netflix, like clockwork.

>>12507336
lolz

>>12507327
Sound like the Bussard ramjet all over again, what's the catch? (beside only working to get away from the sun)

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/enginelist.php#plasmag

>>12507323
>problem
The Martian justice system is swift and unforgiving

>>12507343
The catch is you need superconducting wire and you can only accelerate away from the sun. If you have a few RL-10s on the ass end of your rocket and a nuclear-electric power generation system with some other thrusters you can cobble together a pretty damn fast ship for light payloads.

>>12507343
That is the catch, you can't fucking use the thing at all to get in-system, you'll have to carry two drives. If you want to go further from the sun you'll be able to accelerate as much as you'd like so long as you have electrical power. If however you want to drop back down toward Sol, you'll need some other drive that does use reaction mass to slow back down.

>>12507321
I personally doubt the use of laser weaponry beyond bases stations or extremely large spacecraft due to how power hungry such weapons are. Missiles and guns are much more energy dense and will allow for smaller ships to deliver considerable munitions to the enemy
>you won't have the kind of AI a real navy would have
That's a whole other topic

>>12507255
>>12507261

So it is posibble, and all you niggers are avoiding the fact that we could be traveling to the start by the sheer force of our flatulences

>>12507365
Lurk moar, flatular rocketry has been explored in detail by the brilliant minds at 4ASS for quite some time.

>>12507302
>debris
An NPP ship would probably only be allowed to start/stop well outside of a planet's gravity well anyway, a little bit of interplanetary debris never hurt nobody.
>throttleability
Wouldn't be the first rocket without throttleability. Just trim with chems. You need significant chemical power just for RCS on such a beast anyway.

>>12506083
the orbital manuvering system of the space shuttle (link related, hypergolic RCS) is visible in thermal imaging from the asteroid belt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Orbital_Maneuvering_System

>>12506244
How much radioactive waste would you need to dump into, say a Coretap, to start liquifying parts of, or the whole Martian mantle?

>>12507285
The fact that the people who discover an object arent allowed to name it, and some committee instead names it after some nigger islanders to placate them, is frankly fucking retarded

>>12507389
RAPTOR RCS
RAPTOR RCS

>>12507336
lmao, even Zubrin hated it. he's an honorary italian

>>12506375
>What's the best way to play kerbal campaign?

asparagus stage straight up until you are heading out of kerbol's gravity well.

>>12506375
Actually calculate Delta V for missions and then carefully min max.

It isn't necessary but it tickles the old autism

>>12507392
I'll reiterate
>space telescopes are too expensive and difficult to do!
>yes my hawaiian masters we'll name another object after your gods. want another multi million dollar payout too?

>>12507252
>>12507261

>>12507417
F-fuck... the beanboys knew this the whole time.
Q didn't predicted this.

>>12507415
kek

>>12507336
If you believe there’s a secret jew conspiracy then you should be happy about racemixing

>>12507362
Laser don't need to be big when your target have absolutely critical and fragile components exposed, that can't be protected or replaced on the go.
>Invading fleet are about to do their deceleration burn
>Laser snipe their engines
>their inertia send them back in outer space to die

Also you know the drill: Bullets and missiles have mass, range and dV limitation. It's only economical if the mass you carry is enough to destroy a bigger mass of enemy ships & missiles.

If I had to imagine a space combat fleet I would go full modular drone fleet.
>only 1 ship on 100 is crewed, look identical to the others.
>"ships" are just engine and fuel tank frame that stay in the back
>they deploy semi-expandable shield drone/turret meant to intercept/attack
>a lot of things are linked by wires and winch cable and will rotate like bola to make their trajectory harder to predict
>vulnerable during maneuver so approaching a planet would be done slowly
>invading fleet exist only to prevent the enemy from intercepting the various kinetic impact vehicles meant to arrive just at the same time.

>That's a whole other topic
I'm just telling anonymous what are CHODE limitation. Any real future fleet would have AIs doing the strategy and piloting the ships.

>>12506225
>Whatever /pol/ may tell you
Ffs can you stop this /pol/ boogeyman shit? /pol/ is right wing retardation, this nigger is from plebbit, aka left wing retardation. Jesus Christ.
But otherwise, you are right. Living on mars would probably lead to people developing more cancer-resistant bodies via tolerance building and natural selection.

>>12506583
The First is worse. At least Away featured spaceflight. The First rarely shows anything related to spaceflight in preference to showing a angst fest family. What's worse is that the show featured a scene where the question "why are we spending billions when there are poor?" was brought up and the pro-space counter argument was some weak feelsgood statement about exploration that doesn't even address the point

>>12507423
So don't expose your radiators so much. People get too hard up on CHODE and forget that it provides a limited selection of design space. You can control the cross section you show to the enemy/shadow them from the front or run droplet radiators that don't provide much of a worthwhile target.

>>12506225
>>12506179

Why don't they strap a huge fuckoff booster to the ISS and sent to into an orbit around the moon?

>>12506067
People risk death in early exploration, robots are expendable

>>12507425
>more cancer-resistant bodies
Does this mean /b/ would be back again?

>>12507440
kek, and it'd be less kosher

>>12507109
Doesn’t need graphite or anything, it’s in space, all you have is a very short spike of heat
Applying some sort of fluid coating would be ample
Maybe you have little runners going up and down spreading it, with tubes inside the “ropes”

Or perhaps a steel wire a kilometer away from the blast point has no real issue over hundreds of blasts

>>12507109
There's also the fact that with medusa some of the explosion's energy is going to push the wrong way since it's detonating between the sail and the craft. You could design the craft and the bomb to mitigate this, yeah, but it's a lot of trouble when you could just unga bunga it and use a simple metal plate.

>>12507454
The discovery that a graphite coating would allow something to survive a nuclear blast was behind the thought process leading to Orion in the first place. It does not exist because things are simply immune to such things in space, despite the fact that the effects are less severe.

>>12507432
It's not just the radiators you could disable a ship just by shooting a few RCS thrusters or sensors. CHODE cannot deal with the full range of AI tactic that would arise but you can already test that.
You also couldn't afford to constantly point in the direction of your enemy, assuming its not multiple ship spread far enough to attack from multiple direction.

>>12507123
You can get down to 10-20 mph increments, lower if you wanted to waste the impulse by detonating further away
How much more precise do you even think you need ? Fire up the thrusters

>>12507116
Being able to launch from earth is like the single greatest pro of it
Every other high isp meme engine cannot do that

>>12507432
Would there be any way to internalize radiation and effectively mitigate such a weakness?

>>12506839
This is a really based poast

>>12507422
it's no secret, and what?

>>12507400
he's surprisingly based for a jew
>“Ethical Exploration and the Role of Planetary Protection in Disrupting Colonial Practices” lacks technical merit. It is, nevertheless of great clinical interest, as it brilliantly demonstrates how the ideologies responsible for the destruction of university liberal-arts education can be put to work to abort space exploration as well.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/11/wokeists-assault-space-exploration/

>>12507459
I mentioned radiators because they're the obvious and most difficult to defend target, but they are still possible to defend. Sensors and RCS would be fairly trivial by comparison. And with long enough engagement distances the enemy starts to look pointlike no matter how far they spread.

>>12507423
>Laser snipe their engines
I doubt engines would be that fragile especially engines that are designed to be clustered which most warship engines would most likely be. Although that would depend on laser power and laser engagement distance relative to missile engagement distance

>>12507310
The enemy had good lasers in that story so missiles were not suitable. The shuttles were used to.. challenge the aliens.

>>12507466
we're still lewding kerbals?

>>12507482
We should be. They've become more human.

>>12507466
>Would there be any way to internalize radiation
Uh, no. The whole point of radiators in space is to vent excess heat out of your spacecraft so it doesn't cook your crew or slag itself. At most you can have slab radiators with only one side facing out, but then you need twice as many of them.

>>12506261
which the large percentage of you (not us) deserve. fat burger-eating mutts as you are.

>>12507499
ingroup good, outgroup bad

>>12507464
I meant precise in how you need several size of bomb and can't approach any station like you would with a directed exhaust plume.
Some people seem to think that once you enter "brute force" territory you no longer have to care about the little details. In this case the little detail make it fundamentally impractical.

>Being able to launch from earth is like the single greatest pro of it
It's also the less credible, most impossible part of it. Not a good choice to have as your "greatest pro".
You are talking of launching bomb continuously at a constant rate, with each bombs being perfectly directed, capable of correcting the trajectory with a delay. And obviously you can't afford a failed launch.

And that's before going into the whole aspect of making nuclear bomb explode in the atmosphere over a quarter of the planet.

>>12507484
>ywn raise human-kerbal hybrid children with your kerbal wife

>>12507502
Engineering difficulties are not at all equivalent to space only vessels with meme propulsion’s that will never work
How does a ship like this land on ganymede or Pluto? Just hand wave away even more fictional high thrust engines?

Nuclear propulsion is real, you don’t need precise accuracy in thrust, you need to only be good enough

>>12507480
All you need to do is poke a hole in their nozzle, whether metal or magnetic.

>>12507474
Even keeping the engagement on lasers, the effort you put into armoring every part will reduce the payload significantly and it will be more cost efficient to get a laser to pierce your weakest part than to protect from it.
The best use of a laser would be to blind your target, denying him the possibility to use its laser right as projectiles close by.

Concerning laser spread, it matter little if the effective range is far enough to have all the time you need before the enemy can defend itself.

>>12507480
Depend of the engine but even the Orion's pushing plate can't afford to take a projectile meant to pierce it instead of its pellets calibrated to spread the shockwave evenly.
Redundancy do not help if the enemy still have as much time to disable as many engine as he need.

>>12507542
Can lasers focus well enough to do that hundreds of kilometers away?

>>12507575
Yes.

>>12507575
No, not in the slightest
A small barrier plus rotation means your laser doesn’t do dick

THERMONUCLEAR FUSION AND LIQUID FUEL HOMOPOLAR LASER PROPELLED ELECTROMAGNETIC STABILIZED FLYING SAUCERS.

>>12507551
The point isn't to armor every part. Just to limit what's exposed and armor what is. If you're in space and the enemy is literally surrounding you, you managed to fuck up phenomenally. Instead of planning for fucking up phenomenally, plan for some level of tactical acuity and armor the face you put towards the enemy.

>>12507097
yes, and the only fuel on mars is methane

>>12507540
I'm not sure you are the same person, or followed the full chain of quote.

>Engineering difficulties are not at all equivalent to space only vessels
Precisely my point against Orion's style "take off from surface". It's far more complicated and you can't afford a slower rate of firing with repair in space.

>How does a ship like this land on ganymede or Pluto?
If you refer to this pic >>12507502
It would naturally use the dedicated lander it brought, built to use local fuel & IRSU.
If the tech is good enough the lander could have its own nuclear engine.

>Nuclear propulsion is real, you don’t need precise accuracy in thrust, you need to only be good enough
The crude approach of the Orion style nuclear pulse thruster displace the difficulty unto the bomb/pellet and introduce new needs for accuracy and precision.
No doubt a Settlers story only need a few ship that go from A to B even if it land in crater, but realistically you'd need a large space infrastructure and you can't afford to be leaving radioactive debris in various place you'll need.

>>12507591
there's very little methane on Mars, it's just rich in the ingredients to make methalox: (CO2 + H2O = CH4 + O2)

in theory you could make any hydrocarbon from there but why bother when methalox is so good? you could also make hydrolox by skipping the CO2 and just cracking water, but fuck hydrogen and fuck hydrojews

>>12507551
>heavy armor
just slap retroreflectors all over the fuel tanks and other critical parts

>>12507590
Again,
1) you CAN'T afford to point non stop at an enemy, especially if you need to maneuver and he use laser
2) you won't be able to protect a large arc and still have payload, or proppelant. (reminder it will be 50% of your mass)
3) there's still thing you will need to leave open, the radiators alone will require serious trade-off and if the enemy can inflict enough damage to disable a critical part of trigger a cascade failure.

Economically it may be possible you can't have warship at all, only missiles swarm and orbital laser network.

>>12507627
Those things are very well calibrated and won't work for any level of energy.
So no you can't have mirror armor.
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacegunconvent.php#id--Laser_Cannon--Mirror_Armor

>>12507471
>it's no secret, and what?

Some /pol/tards are super retarded and think Jews are trying to make the world racially homogenous and therefore easier to control, but that’s obviously retarded if you know anything about human psychology. If you were part of some sinister evil upper class, you’d want the lower classes to be as diverse and divided as possible, so they’ll be at odds with eachother and less likely to unite against you. If the lower classes were largely homogenous, then they’re much more likely to go after outsiders like the upper class.

>>12507633
The existence of the Kalergi Plan proves otherwise.

>>12507640
There is no “Kalergi plan”. Kalergi never proposed mixing the races together; and the passage you’ll doubtless refer to where he discusses the mixing of the races is him conjecturing about something that could happen in the far future, not a plan he had. Kalergi was a European supremacist.

>>12507645
t. SPLC

>>12507646
That isn’t an argument.

“The European culture is the culture of the white race, which originated on the grounds of Christianity and the ancient world. This is why the European culture can be firmly defined as the Christian culture, in contrast to the Islamic, Buddhist, Hinduistic, and Confucian cultures of Asia. The two pillars of European culture are the hellenic individualism and the Christian socialism. The European culture is in her nature activist and rational. She strives to fulfill reasonable goals in a forceful manner. Her highest achievement is science and it’s practical applications in engineering, chemistry, and medicine. In this she far exceeds all other cultures.“

-Kalergi

>>12507649
Not that anon but this Kalergi guy seems pretty swell.

they've been working on the high bay today. Wonder if they're finally going to put in the gantry crane

>>12507633
Don't bother with the white basedpremacists, they're impotent incels trying to bring their politics everywhere, ignore their posts and at least they'll concentrate on talking about actual spaceflight instead of chimping out. That way we can have a thread that doesn't derail too much.

Can you faggots fuck off and stop shitting up the thread? Thanks.

>>12507654
Kalergi was an advocate of Pan-Europeanism and claimed the European states would have to unite together to remain competitive with Russia and America, but he never advocated for mixing whites and blacks together to make some weird prole race. He advocated for Europeans mixing together to basically create a master race with the “souls” of all of the European ethnic groups together.

“Only with the united efforts of Europe can we solve these tasks and conquer Africa not only politically but culturally and economically as well.”

>>12507668
I don’t entirely disagree with them but they are wrong if they think Kalergi was some evil Jew who wanted to turn humanity into a brown homogenous mass. If anything he was pretty close to the modern pan-nationalist white supremacist, who believe in “whites” as a whole uniting against other races irrespective of their national boundaries.

>>12507667
it's ridiculous how fast they set up that crane. Was up to full height in like 15 minutes.

>>12507667
Isn’t Super Heavy supposed to be like two thousand tons when fueled?

>>12507686
3580 tons. Starship is 1320 tons. An entire stack plus it’s 100 ton payload is 5000 tons.

>>12507690
>5 kilotonnes of fuel air bomb RUD on the pad

Will it be kino bros?

>>12507631
fucked up quotes last time
>nooo you can't do XYZ
[citation needed]
1.) Jinking (changing position at random, which I imagine is what you have in mind although you refuse to state anything whatsoever and just say "nuh uh" over and over and over again) and maintaining your posture (face towards enemy) are not mutually exclusive. Both would probably be maintained by simple algorithm. And despite what impressions you may have, there are very effective armor countermeasures to laser fire. You clearly love project rho so put down the chode and go root around there.
2.) Depends on what your drive is, the size of your ship, what your armor is/what you're armoring against, and most importantly what your mission profile is. Armor for laser fire, point defense for missiles, maneuver for dumb hypervelocity, at least that's how I see it. Armoring against laser fire has less to do with how thick and dense your armor is and everything to do with its ability to thermally dissipate. So it takes the least mass to armor against while being the hardest to avoid, a no brainer. The larger your ship is, the less of its overall mass is contributed by armoring any amount of its surface area by definition. A chemical drive could leave you with much lower mass fraction, an NPP with much higher, and anywhere in between. And finally your mission profile, because your mass fraction is determined entirely by what kind of maneuver your ship has to be capable of. An attacking ship that has to transit into enemy airspace (spacespace?) has much more rigorous demands than one that waits to receive the enemy in orbit. A ship that lives in space has much reduced structural, throost, and dV requirements than one that lifts off. It all depends.
3.) incomprehensible ESL

>>12507686
if wikipedia is right a bit more than that. Turns out 160ft (3181 cubic meters) of highly compressed fuel is fucking heavy

>>12507633
You're acting as if there's some rule the elites must follow that says they have to pick one strategy and stick to it. It's much more likely that they'd pursue multiple avenues of destabilization, demoralization, and social control. Stoke constant ethnic conflict by forcing various third worlders in close proximity with each other while also launching the largest propaganda campaign in history to ensure European identity can never solidify in a meaningful way again

>>12507631
>you CAN'T afford to point non stop at an enemy, especially if you need to maneuver and he use laser
Do your burns outside of effective range of your enemy's weapons and point your thick plug of armor at them during the pass while dumping as many shots you can at them. Like orbital jousting

How could you go about arming and armoring a starship. Will it even be needed? I doubt any space warfare is going to happen any time soon but it’s still fun to think about. The first ironclad warships will be kino

>>12507698
One reason why Elon wants to buy out all of Boca Chica

>>12507702
Okay but Kalergi advocated for Europeans specifically creating a unified European identity so they could remain competitive with the growing American and Russian superpowers of his time. He wasn't even wrong, since it's obvious at a glance that no European state has been competitive with America or Russia for decades. Just look at how anemic their space program is.

"America wants to buy Europe, and Russia wants to conquer it."

>You're acting as if there's some rule the elites must follow that says they have to pick one strategy and stick to it. It's much more likely that they'd pursue multiple avenues of destabilization, demoralization, and social control.

I'm not sure I'd want to be destabilizing anything that I currently control. Destabilizing something is how you create the conditions where you can take control, not something you do when you already possess it.

>>12507713
The first warship will be a USA 36m BFR upgraded with a pulse nuclear engine. It will maneuver in front of your predicted trajectory and just brap you to death with nukes

>>12507720
>implying the Space Force has that sort of self control of patience
Starship is made of steel, which means particularly eager customers can weld things to them. Like Mk 41 VLS systems.

>>12506219
As an existing example that could fit in a cargo starship by dimension no probably weight is a 1955 era Westinghouse 3rd generation nuclear reactor. It fit inside inside a 7.65 m diameter submarine (skate class) and generates 4.9MW of power continuously. Obviously the sub design uses sea water as one of the coolant loops so a large amount of heat sinks would be needed on Mars/space but they could be placed on the underside of large solar panel array or with a mess of pipes buried in the Martian regolith for a heat pump. You can see these reactor sections on google earth at Hanford site in Washington. They’re not much longer than they are wide. And there’s been a lot of improvement since then. A Virginia class sub built in 2000 (9 m diameter) has a 9th generation GE reactor that makes 30 MW.

>>12507760
You can also fill the nose with its volume in water but good luck making orbit

>>12507760
>just put a 2000 ton reactor into a starship xd

>>12507790
if it could be built in segments and built in orbit that's not entirely unreasonable for Starship to pull off, it's only 20 flights

>>12507790
yes

>>12507790
C'mon, what are you a pussy?

>>12507815

Elon isn't going to be paying 9000 gorillion dollars and dealing with all the assorted bullshit for a nuke reactor. So unless the government chips in (they won't) you nuke autists need to get over it.

>>12507854
Elon Musk will replace the government with a superior form of rulership; direct rule by CEO

>>12507854
>pick the smallest, most corrupt country he can find
>pay a few bribes
>build everything in there legally

>>12507865
>get assets seized by us gov

>>12507869
>seize us gov

>>12507854
So he'll get Tesla to make 9000 rolls of flexible solar panels to be unrolled by the astronauts on mars and staked into the ground.

>>12507854
What if he builds CANDU style reactors on Mars with natural uranium?

>>12507369
yes, we've really plumbed the depths of anal propulsion

>>12507310
>>12507481
If you look at the gunship you'll notice it's not firing actual cannon ammo. It's firing casaba howitzers. Nuclear shaped charges.

>>12507606
yes

swamp internet defense force here
fuck your desert-ass high latitude launch site
enjoy your polar orbit radiation

>>12507985
Enjoy your malaria, zika, rabies and ebola.

>>12507988
don't forget the alligators

I got really bored tonight so I started on this.

>>12507994
Alligators are delicious

When is something gonna happen SFG has been dead lately.

>>12507790
>implying you need all that shielding on Mars
The NuScale SMR reactors weigh about 600 tons and those are for use in proper powerplants here on urf.

>>12508018
Anon stop making me want to search "ebony" on Pornhub

>>12508018
Nothing until new years probably. Nothing comes out around this time of year

>>12507718
>I'm not sure I'd want to be destabilizing anything that I currently control
I personally don't believe the minecraft villagers are single-mindedly following said kalergi plan, but I will say that they overall want to kill the whites by demoralizing and race mixing (why are black man and white woman couples so common in ads and p*rnography when said combination is not IRL?).
If said elites want to control something, it'd be the resulting lightskin mutts who have no culture to stand by as a source of pride.
>>12507861
Elon Musk is gonna make Mars an empire and retake the earth.

>>12508069
A population of "lightskin mutts" without internal racial conflicts or religious conflicts would kill the phenotypically distinct ruling class within like five minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDYt-phUAxY

what do you think about this vid and other on this channel? this guy is extremly critical of spacex.

>>12508018
Its fucking Christmas you dumb cunt

>>12508075
I think I won't bother giving it view.

>>12508075
It's been deboonked dozens of times here.

>>12508097
i want to know more.

>>12508105
Search the /sci/ archive, my dude. That guy deletes all the comments on his videos calling out his bullshit so you won't find anything there.

Kind of sad to see work at boca chica today. Christmas should be a time of relaxing and spending time with family.

>>12508116
search by his nickname?

>>12508122
Or part of the video URL but I don't know if that changes. Regardless, he has Elon derangement syndrome and I wouldn't be surprised if he lost a bunch of money shorting Tesla stock.

>>12508074
I agree. Said elite would've already won if they weren't known to backstab their opposition, including their own brethren.
But since they're cowards who do so, they're doomed to fail. They'll overestimate their own power and get fucking smothered by the mutts and die off. The mutts will then gradually destroy the earth until no people are left.
>>12508075
I'm glad Angry Astronaut got people to learn about this cunt, and he made some pretty good calculations too.

>>12508119
Other than going to church and the gym I have zero people to spend Christmas with. I wish I still had my job because I enjoyed having stuff to do on Christmas.

>>12508133
What a loser.

>>12508143
still, this guy is right about fact that starship wont be able to carry 100 people to mars

>>12508150
That's the one thing he's right about. I'd see Starship carrying like 30 people, and even then, that's if being comfy is a minority.

>>12508004
thank u

>>12508158
Nah I’m betting on 50. NASA says a person needs 17 cubic meters of space to not go crazy for a many month trip. 1000 meters can give 50 crew enough space with some extra margin. But this is late down the line because there’s little room for consumables, which means that either other Starships have the goodies or there’s enough on Mars’ surface.

>>12508075
Looks like your standard cringe leftist "skeptic"

>>12508158
Throw enough mud on the wall and something will stick. He actually thinks the Starlink business model will fail, partly because of the high terminal production costs of prototype models...

>>12508150
Wrong

>>12508182
Starlink could be a total failure with consumers but the military is going to suck Elon off for it

>>12508183
i mean, they will physically fit i guess, but it would be too cramped for long duration flight

>>12508169
You're assumption doesn't take into account food, water and water treatment systems, primary, secondary, and likely tertiary life support systems, at least one head and space shower, plus the nose observation/recreation deck which will be disproportionately large compared to the other living spaces in the ship. I'd say 25 tons of MRE type food, about 20 tons of water assuming 100% efficiency water recycling, so probably more like 30 tons, in addition even with a large stockpile of the longest lived chemical filters, each crewmember is probably going to account for several hundred kilos worth of breathing air, even if the pressure of Starship is half a bar to facilitate improved life support system efficiency. You'll be lucky if the supplies to support 25 people for one year don't consume more than 70% of crewship's total payload.

>>12508182
>Apparently
Did he even try to source that? And even at a $2000/dish loss, you're banking on a customer retention time of less than two years before that customer is profitable. People stick with garbage ISPs for longer than that, especially in the target market where ISP choice is limited and Starlink will obliterate the competition's service quality.

>>12508198
Yeah but you don’t need to support them for a year. You just need 4 or so months for the transit, everything else is on Mars.

>>12508215
>4 or so months for the transit
uhhhh

>>12508227
Yeah and? SpaceX is only gonna send crew of 6-10 at first until they finally get the colony up and running 20 or so years from now.

>>12508235
transit is 9mo

>>12508239
No it’s not nigga not if you can refuel on orbit.

>>12508209
He was off a bit, SpaceX pays some electronics company to produce the terminal for them and they're out $1900 for each one after the customer pays $500, but he wrong for all the reason you mentioned plus others. It's a common theme with people like this that they have no ability to infer information about what will happen in the future, hell half the time they're talking about something that happened years ago and is no longer relevant. User terminal costs will fall almost exceptionally as they produce millions of them, as with the cost of Starlink satellites and with the cost of getting them into LEO with Starship. I'll eat my shirt if Starlink is not highly profitable five years from now.

>>12508248
*shit

>>12508264
I'd take that on if the "skeptics" also promised to do the same if they're wrong. I just wish SpaceX was publicly traded so I could put my money where my mouth is and watch idiots lose all their money trying to bet against SpaceX, just as I watched them do it with Tesla over the last couple of years.

>>12508278
Elon selling Tesla brand short pants probably gave the SEC ulcers.

>>12508278
SpaceX does not have to give a shit about what "skeptics" think. If they had stopped to do that, then SpaceX would have never became the company they are today. Same with Tesla. "Skeptics" should be ignored. Skepticism doesn't give rise to valid concern. Its mainly baseless derailment mental masturbatory exercise that contribute nothing to the solution.

>>12508215
You want to include a substantial error margin in your supplies. Just because the ship itself is going to be cheap and easy to mass produce doesn't mean SpaceX would be skimping on vitals like life support, food, water, air bottles, etc. There will probably be twice as much as is absolutely necessary, plus some extra. Enough spare that nothing but an absolutely catastrophic failure could actually kill a crew.

>>12508247
not 4mo