/sci/ - Science & Math

>>12424603
Why does it matter if it's 10 or 1% ?

rip birds

there is no magic bullet for clean energy, it takes a blend of technologies. wind is just one part of that.

>>12424635
Everyone I know who raised this irl also bragged at one point how they accelerate they car before a road kill.

>>12424603
because it still cheap as hell

>>12424603
what matters is cost and its renewable.

>>12424635

The estimated number of birds killed by cats in the US is 2,400,000,000 per year.
>https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

The estimated number of bird killed by vehicle collision is between 89,000,000 and 340,000,000 per year.
>https://www.fws.gov/birds/bird-enthusiasts/threats-to-birds/collisions/road-vehicles.php#:~:text=Collisions%20with%20vehicles%20are%20believed,vehicle%20collisions%20on%20U.S.%20roads.

The estimated number of birds killed by wind turbines is between 140,000 and 500,000 per year. - ( U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service). At a worse case about 5,000 times less than the number killed by cats. Furthermore simply contrast painting of one of the arms can reduce that number drastically.

>>12424603
>How can we make wind power better?
Good question! I don't know, but maybe someone smarter than me have some ideas.

>wind bad
>kills all the birds
/pol/tards are so predictable

>>12424603
I used to inspect the quality of the concrete foundations of these things

Shit job "engineering technician" is not a job you want, I didnt even have a GED and thought I was lucky. Lol nope. Not lucky at all.

>>12424603
>Why can't morons understand that they're morons?
Gee, OP, not sure why that might be.

>>12424920
>anything green good night matter what

Librards are so predictable

>>12424842
Based and Turbine pilled

>>12424842
How many cats are there in the US?
How many vehicles?
Now how many turbines?
Give me the % not the gross number

>>12424603
I fucking hate Atheists. I know a Mormon family that has 8 wind turbines on their farm. Stop hating people just because their beliefs are different from yours.

>>12424656
>Solar and wind multiple times less expensive than nuclear and gas.
Graph seems pretty fishy.

Solar panels are based

>>12425296
It's bullshit. Solar and wind energy output has nothing to do with demand, so when they're outputting lots of power, often times there's no market for it and electricity prices collapses. When they don't, a good portion of your grid is now producing dick so prices rise. Of course a good portion of the electricity in scenario A is solar/wind, making it "cheap", and obviously in B there's none of it, making everything else "expensive".
That's why gas peaker is at the top. It's not actually expensive to build a gas peaker plant and supply power with it, it's expensive to deal with the grid instabilities caused by renewmeme (or any other factor like changing demand).

>>12425296
Nuclear is always extremely expensive, just look at Vogtle, even existing plants in the US threaten to shutdown everytime their subsidies are about to expire.
>It's not actually expensive to build a gas peaker plant and supply power with it
the cited figure is LCOE so that's literally the only thing it's looking at. So try again on this one.

In my country there is a lot of opposition to wind and solar from... environmentalists. Apparently solar panels "consume land" while wind power is a noisy, eyesore, bird killer. Bonus points if you can guess my country.

>>12425624
Nuclear is expensive because of insane regulations
Otherwise the US would have been an all nuclear country since long ago and where would all the coal miners or oil drillers be

>>12425707
How are nuclear regulations too extreme? What regulations specifically drive up costs so much? Why are nuclear costs consistently high in virtually every country? Do they all have the same regulations? If so why?

>>12424842
also, recent studies seem to indicate that by painting one of the blades black, 70% of the birds are saved

>>12425296
https://www.lazard.com/media/451086/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-130-vf.pdf

page 8

>>12425714
Why could reactors be built in the 60s and 70s but never after?
Why was there a 30 year period where not a single new reactor has been started and still nothing has been started and finished since the 70s ?

How many billions do you think is an appropriate cost for the permitting process?

Why is China able to build reactors in 3 to 4 years?

>>12425802
Because the Chinese are not fucking stupid.

>>12424656
>Lazard

>>12424640
nuclear

You fuel can even be bullets in form

It's more efficient than natural gas if the plant operates for almost 20 years

>>12425982
dumb frogposter

Looking out at night in Cheyenne. All you see now are hundreds of blinking red lights from windmills.

>>12425288
>I fucking hate Atheists
>Stop hating people just because their beliefs are different from yours
>also no mention of anything religious in OP
What did he mean by this?

>>12425986
Can people stop using that cursed word "efficiency" out of a properly defined technical context?

>>12425982
IRENA puts the lcoe of solar at 68 in 2019 and around 48 in 2020.
BNEF puts solar lcoe at 50 and for solar tracking around 39

>>12425282
How much electricity do cats produce each year? Give me the football fields, not %.

>>12425802
>Why could reactors be built in the 60s and 70s but never after?
Well, take a wild fucking gueass, will ya?

>>12424603
I lived in Chicago for a few years and everyone there said there's no way they can afford their heating bills without them

>>12424656
>gas costs more than nuclear

That's Lazard for you

>>12424842
You must be one of those idiots who tries to justify SARS deaths by bringing up car accidents.

>>12425252
> reddit spacing
> dumbass phone poster who can't spell check a single sentence
> defending retards
yeah this checks out

>>12424650
>how they accelerate they car
are you purposely trying to sound like a retard?

>>12424603
Offshore wind farms are best way to harness the power of windy storms and reduce their power as they hit inland and become hurricanes.

They're complimentary to solar panels as they are great during nights.

>Summer comes
>No more wind
>LOL

>>12429198
wat

>>12424842
100 million cats vs 60 thousand turbines

>>12424842
You're ignoring the species that wind turbines kill. Every single time someone brings this up and every single energy thread one of you fuckers repeats the same bullshit. At this point I'm thinking there are people who actually want to see eagles go extinct.

>>12424880
permanent magnet direct drive systems, less moving parts, less maintenance
you'd probably need a way to amplify wind to focus on your wind farm
you also need a way to reduce power loss

Disregard wind and solar fags. Go nuclear.

>>12429166
No, sorry I don't believe it's real, but they said I am dyslexic and that is why I'm more into science than writing in the first place.

>>12429125
>spacing a post is now reddit
this is what rent free looks like

>>12429351
Well, cats do not produce energy unless you found a way to turn cats to fuel.

>>12429935
Gimme a toast with butter, a cat and some duct tape, and I will manage.

>>12429942
Ah, yes, the only generator that goes MEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.

>>12429959
Unlimited spinning scratches, baby!

>>12425802
The oil lobby and (((soviets))) funded anti-nuclear propaganda across the west to brainwash several generations by making them believe radioactive boogeymen are out to get them.

>>12424603
>25% of german electricity is driven by memefuel
based

>>12426071
No, but I was being vague

I meant efficient in an economic context.

Who gives a fuck about entropy lmao

>>12424842
>Furthermore simply contrast painting of one of the arms can reduce that number drastically.
>>12425775
>8 turbines
there has yet to be a good study on this

>>12430661
They sure spent a fair bit of money on it around here, strange results are not clear.

>>12424650
that is clearly not true lmao

>>12424656
who the fuck makes graphs with colors that similar

>>12430574
Do you mean it has the highest ROI?

>>12433513
You don't know me. It was one of my friends a classmate years ago before I left school and then someone from uni.

>>12424656
Gay color choice

>>12424842
Lies, catto is innocent

>>12433736
People who have things to cover up.

>>12433736
>>12433962
You might be suffering from colorblindness.

>>12429916
Why would you space it like that after a single sentence?

>>12429744
>amplify wind
How??

Because people like to larp that the people in charge of running shit is actually evil. Its a way for them to justify their failures. I couldnt become a process engineer because that guy is evil and therefore cheated to get where he is. They have very little understanding of the actualities involved in shit. Take for example the CDC, they have mandates on masks and shit and theyre staffed by legit doctors but people still think theyre actively pushing some agenda. People hear on the news that this is bad and that is good and because they can digest that info they think its absolutely true and throw all confounding variables out the window.

>noooooooo you can't just build cheap energy generation it's not fair!!!
Why do you keep making this thread?

In Germany
Roughly 30 million birds are getting killed by cats every year (3 killed birds per cat per year)
Roughly 20 million birds are getting killed by windows every year (1 killed bird per building per year)
Roughly 10 million birds are getting killed by cars every year
Only 100,000 birds are getting killed by wind turbines per year

t. someone who works as a climate protection manager (funded by the Federal Government) and who literally wrote an article about this topic TODAY

>>12435652
I also want to add:
The average wind turbine built today produces 4000 MWh of energy per year, while it only takes 3500 MWh of energy to produce (for the steel and such), so
it takes less than a year for a wind turbine to pay itself off (energetically speaking, not economically which takes 4 to 8 more years)

>>12429935
Give me a grant and call me back in 25 years, i might have something for you

>>12435477
>The elites have my best interests in mind haha

How do people genuinely believe this?

>>12435652
I do love fake jobs that do nothing productive. Climate change is the biggest scam in history.

>>12424920
>Defending renewables
Reddit is so predictable.

>>12435773
>scientific consensus is the biggest scam in history
Got lost looking for your home board?
>>>/pol/

>>12435873
>Unironically citing “consensus”

Science is not a democracy.

>>12435663
Have they looked into the energy required for service roads, foundations, power lines and so on, damage caused by oil leakage, habitat changes and so on?
Those things always gets harped on by people who hate the windmills in my country, but we mostly put them on mountains so those things are more substantial than when building on "farmland" so to speak

>>12435962
And you will never be a real woman

Anyone got the numbers for how much oil it takes to make those composite blades, and the energy amount that is given off if that oil was used for fuel for a power plant?

>>12435962
Riding on the wrong side of the road makes you neither a maverick nor a genius nor does it make you right. You're just an idiot playing with people's lives.

No one ever claimed that science is a democracy. And making a shitty greentext one-liner doesn't pass as a proof of an alleged connection where there is none.
Scientific consensus is the result of hundreds and thousands of papers, of overwhelming evidence, pieced together by countless researchers acting independently in arduous work and minute detail that slowly but ever more certain paints the big picture that we call knowledge.

>>12436337
>Muh faked studies by lying scientists who want money !!!111

>>12436416
Ah so you have proof then?

>>12436426
proofs are for the globohomo lobby

>>12435773
>fake jobs
Imagine being a climate thought leader, travelling the world in CO2 emitting air crafts to always nice parts of the world, in order to emit more CO2 in front of a microphone. And nothing happens.
Aircrafts are grounded yet CO2 is STILL on the increase.
Yet the real work is done by real scientists such as the guy who invented blue LED, that has saved enormous amounts of energy (and CO2). And will there be more billions to R&D? Noooo! Of course not! Thought leaders must STILL be allowed to fly all over the world.

>>12435980
>Have they looked into the energy required for service roads, foundations, power lines and so on, damage caused by oil leakage, habitat changes and so on?
>NOOOOOO!!! YOU CAN'T TAKE UP SPACE THAT'S COMMUNISM!!!!!

>>12436619
wat

>>12436838
Every complaint you level at renewable energy could just as easily be leveled at conventional energy.
Complaining about how much concrete and steel a wind turbine needs is sort of ridiculous when we churn out billions of tons a year.

Saw windmill blades being transported today while I drove to spaceport America for work

>>12430574
>Who gives a fuck about entropy lmao

>>12435652
who the fuck cares about birds lmao just let them die lol

>>12425802
NIMBYism and fear-mongering. Fukushima really fucked us over because it gave a fresh set of pearls for retards to clutch.

Go nuclear niggers or shut up.

>>12437331
>Complaining about how much concrete and steel a wind turbine needs is sort of ridiculous when we churn out billions of tons a year.
That same sort of retard logic can be applied to why no one should care about getting an inefficient car
Renewables are the most inefficient use of land, as well as materials

>>12425802
>Why could reactors be built in the 60s and 70s but never after?
most economists actually say it was mainly due to the deregulation of natural gas production and then the electricity sector that really killed the nuclear industry. Regulations favored huge power companies slowly building huge power plants in the 60s and 70s
This all changed in the 80s when natural gas production was deregulated and prices fell off a cliff. Nuclear power just couldn't compete in any meaningful capacity and projects got canceled.

This changed a little with Obama Era clean energy policy, but all the projects have been financial disasters years late and billions over budget, so literally no one is willing to light their money on fire investing in nuclear, and even existing plants rely on subsidies to stay open.

>How many billions do you think is an appropriate cost for the permitting process?
A few hundred million seems sufficient, especially considering how much work goes into making sure plants are safe, and the nuclear industries poor track record of self regulation. Of course this shouldn't include any costs related to pre funding decommissioning and waste disposal. I think we can agree the taxpayer shouldn't be the one to pay for it if the plant goes bankrupt.

>Why is China able to build reactors in 3 to 4 years?
state owned power companies are great because there's no competition. Especially considering China has been very interested in upgrading their nuclear arsenal with reprocessed plutonium

>>12438929
land usage is self correcting due to cost. No one cares about offshore land useage, and if on land is such a big deal then rooftop solar would be competitive.

>>12435652
>>12435663
>climate protection manager (funded by the Federal Government)

Thanks for your service.

Also, last summer I can report that I saw a wind turbine that had solar panels on it and it was mind blowing

>>12437331
And if you read my actual comment, you'd find that it wasnt my complaint, but those of the nimby-retards in my country. And that i was wondering if any research into their footprints were done by germananon or similar, as it is an interesting topic beyond just the scope of the windmill itself

>>12424650
I do this, but only with birds of prey. My hood has a number of large dents in it from vultures and such.

>>12439148
>if on land is such a big deal then rooftop solar would be competitive.
You do realize that the materials for those solar panels need to be mined as well and in much greater volume than nuclear or even oil

>>12440546
Good thing that mining is thousands of times better for the environment than mining for nuclear or fossil fuels.

>>12438929
You can't put a nuclear power plant on a rooftop, retard.

>>12441372
>implying you can power everything including heavy industries with just roof top solar

>>12441372
The government doesn't trust we with fissile material after what happened the last time.

>>12442315
throw in some wind and storage, and yeah it's pretty easy. Especially heavy industry as their consumption is very predictable.

Why don't we just generate electricity from poo?

>>12424842
the house cat kill numbers are based on an island study. islands have unique ecology and it does not apply to land mass. furthermore, the people who ran that study are rabid eniviomentists and if you ever talked to those types in real life you would never trust thier data

>>12424936
explain

>>12425693
new zealand?

>>12442493
excuse me?
>We only included mainland and large island (New Zealand and United Kingdom) predation studies, because cat predation on small islands is often exceptionally high36,37

>>12436337
Nobody in Academia works independently, no one even pretends this is the case. Everything goes through comitees (including peer review) that check each other. The system naturally evolves to reward compliance and punish deviancy.

>>12429916
>spacing a post is now reddit
yes

>>12438929
Your metric is retarded. "Efficient use of land" like what does it mean? Return on investment and risk is all there is. Land is not the only variable.

>>12436586
kek

>>12440546
>You do realize that the materials for those solar panels need to be mined
And did you know that Si is one of the most common elements in the Earth's crust? Even if we covered the entire planet in solar panels we would have plenty left.

>>12442572
>>12442604
then why care about the impact of fossil fuels or even the slim chance a nuclear exclusion zone?
You clearly ignore the environmental impact of solar or wind
What's the point of barely reducing the co2 impact if we have to cover all the usable land in solar or wind turbines and still not have an energy surplus needed for material recycling or other high energy production

>>12442701
>NOOOO NOT THE WHOLE PLANET!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>12425457
This. Basically the price is fake because there's no storage capacity and every lot must be sold on the same day. A lot of green energy lots are given away for free everyday because of this.

>>12442771
The graph is LCOE not market price.

>>12442790
I should have checked, my bad.

>>12442701
>You clearly ignore the environmental impact of solar or wind
No. I am just waiting for whoever made the claim to prove there is a problem.

>>12424842
Okay looks like we need to put up giant bird mesh nets around the turbines then you can have more turbines

>>12435753
What if we just forced them to run on wheels to avoid electric shocks until they reach exhaustion? This might actually be pretty efficient power generation

>>12424603
https://energinet.dk/energisystem_fullscreen

Denmark, home of the windmills and leading producer. The link gives a constant update on how much electricity Denmark is using and where we are getting it from.
Right now, at night, Denmark is using 3.182 MW. 771 is coming from windmills. Guess it's not blowing that much right now. 944 MW is being imported. 0 from solar since it's night. The rest from fossil fuels.
At good windy days with perfect conditions, those same windmills can produce enough electricity to power all of Denmark.
https://ing.dk/artikel/rekord-soendag-producerede-danske-vindmoeller-30-pct-mere-stroem-end-vi-brugte-228822
In september 2019 those same windmills produced enough electricity to power all of Denmark for 24 hours straight. Winter is the best season for windpower. But right now, right fucking now, those same windmills are not producing even 30% of Denmarks power in the middle of the night.
It is what it is.

>>12424640
Nuclear. Stop being a retard.

Wind is a meme that takes 60+ years to recoup its energy costs, assuming constant production and no breakdowns.

Solar is a double meme that takes just as long to recoup costs AND uses expensive rare earth metals.

Both require fossil fuels to manufacture, meaning their net carbon footprint is also a fucking meme.

Nuclear is literally the only viable option if you give a shit about climate change.

>>12444256
Not that guy but:

Solar industry is barely at energy balance.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/es3038824

Wind energy is an energy producer, but it's power generation is low and extremely inconsistent.

Intermittent power in general cannot replace baseline power like fossil fuels. The one and only replacement for baseline power is nuclear. But it's also the one the treehuggers refuse to fund. So we're stuck with a shitty hodgepodge of small green industries instead of a robust, nuclear infrastructure.

>>12425986
kys

>>12438929
fucking retard

https://gridwatch.co.uk/

nuclear is the biggest meme of all. monstrously expensive, sites and waste are never safe within any human timeframe, and it can't even scale immediately to demand

>>12445207
Going head strong in intermittent power like solar and wind feels like a massive regression in human achievement, for at least a century mankind has been independent from weather for most of its industry.
Now to reduce carbon emissions we are once again at the behest of the day night cycle and if the wind is blowing whether or not we can run a steel forge

>>12442377
>storage
Is a meme. Transmission losses are huge and storage losses even more so. You need constant power. Intermittent power will always only serve a minority of the grid.

>>12446655
Almost like we need better energy storage tech

>>12445441
>2013
This is much too old to be relevant with today's much larger wind turbines. The cube law relationship will always remain though.

>>12424630
Because it makes it uncompetitive.

>>12438929
How much space you need to dig up and prepare the fuel? How much to store the waste and for how long?

>>12447939
How so?

>>12447991
You fags said the same thing about CFL and LED lamps.

>>12424603
True

>>12424603
>The real output us usually 10-15% the advertised max capacity
New wind is pushing capacity factors of 50% for offshore and 40% onshore. Your numbers are simply not true.