/sci/ - Science & Math

Bout treefiddy years

>>12257000
To be on the safe side. I'd guess it will never happen.

>>12257000
A very very long time. We'd pretty much need a complete understanding of the human brain before even considering to scale the technology to the general population. And its not even clear what the use case will be for the average person.

>>12257000
Considering the first "mobile phone" was released in 1983, and the first iphone was released in 2007, you're looking at a time frame of 24 years.
If you want to compare BCIs to phones, that means that from the first ludicrously expensive retail model, you've probably got another twenty years of waiting before the cool shit starts rolling out.
Then consider that it took another seven years or so for iPhones and competing devices to reach modern functionality, and you're probably looking at rounded up thirty year wait from first rollout to full brain interface.

Of course, BCIs will advance much quicker than phones did.
My money is on 2040 being the year BCIs become big, give or take a year or two.

>>12257000
As common as phones? Never.
Common enough that they become a major political/social/cultural issue? 25-30 years.

>>12257015
U think brain acts this way
Therefore brain begins to act this way
U make a machine that assume brain acts this way
Brain is now spirals this way

>>12257000
>>12257015
Depends on the type of interface.
If we're talking about something that reads neural patterns to makes
your coffee when you want it or opens your front door when you approach it, that's practically a non-issue. Probably coming before the decade is out.

If we're talking about writing to the brain, aka what everyone wants to be able to do, that's probably another ten to twenty years on top of it.

Reverse engineering the evolution of neuron firings in a brain is NP-Hard.
This means you have to solve an NP-hard problem that has an input of like 100 billion parameters.
I.e. it is literally never going to happen.

>>12257062
This

>>12257062
This. I think the people who are convinced that everyone and their mother will be lining up to get one in a few decades are *greatly* overestimating how comfortable the average person is with that level of technological invasiveness.

the brain uses more than just electrical signals to communicate. it's impossible to detect proteins and other neurochemicals instantly.
not to mention the fact that the brain behaves very differently from computers and since it's a product of evolution it almost takes the most complicated approach all the time

>>12257002
imo at least 4

>>12257095
>I.e. it is literally never going to happen.
Funniest thing I've read all week.

5 years for the first ones, 20 years for the powerful cool ones

>>12257000
I unironically think that Musk throwing his hat into the ring shortened the wait by at least a decade.
Not saying Neuralink is making any ridiculous advancements or that Elon is the hero plebbit makes him out to be, but there's something to be said for creating demand in a market that doesn't exist yet.

>>12257000
unironically another millennia

>>12257285
Cope

>>12257356
>there's something to be said for creating demand in a market that doesn't exist yet
Sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean a speed up in terms of development.
It might get more companies interested and working on the problem, but just as there's only so many serious phone manufacturers, there will only be a few important companies that make significant progress in this field, and they're probably already working on it.

>>12257000
As common as phones? Not soon, but probably sometime this century. To make a concept of an extensive brain surgery be attractive to a layman, several criteria must be met:

1) Usefulness. As of now, even the most advanced brain implants can't do much more than read a few electric signals from a specific part of the brain. We are at least 5 years away from making them valuable to paraplegics and amputees, aka people how need them the most. For consumer market, a brain implant must provide at least as much functionality as a mid-to-high end smartphone, but completely hands-off, controlled by thought.

2) Safety. This includes both the surgery and data security. The prior must be as streamlined as possible, or as Elon Musk said: "making getting one installed as simple as getting LASIK". And as for the latter, it's fair to say that privacy will be extremely important, and the implications of someone hacking your brain and stealing your memories or taking manual control of you would detract many potential customers (even though we aren't anywhere close to that kind of stuff being a real concern).

3) Cost. Basically, a brain implant can't be much more expensive than a high end smartphone, and even then it'll still be a luxury product. Also, upgrades. The Idea of getting a brain surgery every 2 years isn't appealing to anyone, so each new version will have to be substantially better than its predecessor, while costing about the same.

My hope is getting some proper ones in the 2030th-40th.

>>12257568
>Basically, a brain implant can't be much more expensive than a high end smartphone, and even then it'll still be a luxury product
I think something important to note is that the first consumer models will probably be hyperexpensive, but they also won't be able to do much.
For example, as long as we're talking about phones, the original iPhone in today's dollars cost about $800.
That might seem relatively cheap compared to the $1K iPhones being released nowadays, but keep in mind that you can get a phone for $100 or less that absolutely embarrasses the original iPhone.
It might not be top of the line, but it would have been completely alien technology if you took it to that initial press conference.

Non-medical BCIs will probably cost thousands of dollars, perhaps even into five digits, when they first come onto the market.
As the technology improves, the cost will scale down.
I'd wager that you're probably right on the timeframe of 2030-40, but the devices we see then will fall into the category of expensive and feature-scarce.
With another ten to twenty years of development on top of that, we'll see the really impressive stuff.

>>12257584
I was talking more idealistically, but yes, those are all fair points. Can't wait for the future.

>>12257000
Why are people such brainlets they can't comprehend putting foreign bodies inside their meat only makes more complications than benefits?

We don't even have proper artificial hearts or lungs and you fags talk about brains. It's nonsense.

When it doesn't require an implant. When brain scanners become as cheap as headphones.

Cant wait for 24/7 popups in my brain

>>12257597
>How dare you talk about technology that doesn't exist yet on a science board?

>>12257597
>putting foreign bodies inside their meat only makes more complications than benefits
Pacemaker

>>12257000
Hopefully never

>>12257015
the use case would be to level the playing field so everyone will be smart and everyone will win the nobel prize. brains will create more brains, as the brain chip will make even smarter decisions than the previous version and we will come up with even better technologies and better brains etc.

>>12257604
Enjoy your high latency garbage.

>>12257000
As common as phones?
Never.

But they will certainly become more common in about 60 years, and even sooner for those with certain disabilities.

>>12257622
>Pacemaker
A destructive alternative to a functioning heart.

Regardless, the heart isn't where memories are stores, and isn't even really an active of a region for cell repair.
Your brain is.
Your brain can create scar tissue.
Your brain WILL create scar tissue if you put stuff in it.

>>12258140
>Your brain WILL create scar tissue if you put stuff in it.
If you stick something large in it, of course.
Look at the threads on a neuralink, literally thinner than a human hair.
These simply don't create a wound channel large enough to warrant the concern you have.

>>12258169
No bro.
Listen, I'm hopeful too. I don't not want neuralink to succeed.

But even those little nicotine patches you put on your skin cause scar tissue -- you can't use them in the same place after a while. Those things are microscopic too.

You're brain is just that much sensitive, if not more so.

I'm glad there are people like you willing to engage in the hype of neuralink, because I will certainly be watching from the sidelines optimistically.

What's the purpose and the capabilities of those DIY BCI kits in 2020? I watched some videos but I am not real clear. Just read and decode some signals for fun?

>>12257000
>How long?
Too long

>>12258310
Right now it's mostly just associating neural patterns with actions on a screen, so you can jerkily move your mouse around or play basic games.
Mostly just toys rn.

>>12258140
>>12258213
The Utah array causes minimal scarring with a lifespan of nine years, and that's giant and awful compared to stuff like the neuralink. The other anon is right, any damage to the brain will be practically unnoticed, and almost certainly won't cause scarring.

>>12257083
I already have a complex, self maintaining machine which makes coffee when I want it and opens doors for me before I walk into them. It's called a body. Brain machine interface is for shit you can't easily do with your body.

>>12258445
And we already have computers with access to all the information man has ever learned in our pockets, but that doesn't stop retards from buying smartwatches to save the two seconds it takes to get their phone up to their eyes.
Early adopters of BCIs will be idiots who do it for the cool factor, not because it's useful.

>>12258462
and late adopters will be idiots too.
just like your example with those stupid smartwatches. the technology is pretty mature but only onions boys find it useful.

>>12258506
I disagree.
The smartwatch is an accompany piece of hardware that serves as an extension of the main device. BCIs are the main device, not an extension.
I only used the smartwatch as an example because you mentioned already being able to do the things the new device does for you.

>>12258462
Smart watches are for faggots. I'll gladly let normalfucks beta test the experimental brain implant technology though.

>>12258445
>you can't easily do with your body.
so regarding to what this anon said: >>12257083
"read only" stuff is for shits and giggles.
but making it "writable" would be a huge medical breakthrough to treat various neurologic conditions. actually read only can be useful as well for people with disabilities so they could send commands to their robotic limbs etc.

>>12257000
I do not think they will really be a thing until we get some kind advanced nanotechnology. Living flesh does not like to interface with lifeless material. Even if we eventually perfect the physical interfacing, brain interfaces will never be able to do anything too fancy, certainly not full immersive VR or writing memories. A brain interface will have no more power over your brain that your existing senses.

>>12258521
>A brain interface will have no more power over your brain that your existing senses.
You're thinking about it incorrectly.
Take your eyes, for example.
They don't actually see anything, they're just providing raw data to your occipital lobe, which decodes it and turns it into what you see.
Things like fully immersive VR wouldn't be like video games, they would be like dreams, where the input from your ears/ears/everything is replaced by an artificially generated input. Your brain literally does this every night.

>>12258540
The reason why you cannot have immersive VR is insufficient bandwidth. The brain is not infinite it only has a limited amount of physical hardware. If you attempt to hook up an entire bodies worth of new inputs to the thing there is going to be sacrifices, so many neurons repurposed for rooting all this new input to where it needs to go. Is becoming a retard an acceptable price for fully immersive VR?

>>12258556
>Is becoming a retard an acceptable price for fully immersive VR?

>>12258556
What the fuck are you on about?
>If you attempt to hook up an entire bodies worth of new inputs to the thing there is going to be sacrifices, so many neurons repurposed for rooting all this new input to where it needs to go.
Provide a source for this

>>12258517
>making it "writable" would be a huge medical breakthrough
And also absolutely fucking terrifying the more it improves. Imagine someone literally remotely hacking your brain to make your body do shit. Imagine a bad firmware update turning you into a vegetable. Keep that shit away from my brain, honestly.

Imagine looking at the absolute fucking state of technology in the current year and thinking "yep, I want that permanently hardwired into my brain"

>>12258625
I really do not envy the early adopters who get multiple brain surgeries each year to have the newest models. This is going to be a mess.

>>12258599
I have seen no talk or discussion about it at all. But just think about it, adding an entire bodies worth of new inputs is going to require a large amount of neurons to process that input and route it to the correct brain areas. Where are all those neurons going to come from, from the either? No, huge amounts of neurons previously used for cognition are going to be repurposed for processing this vast quantity of new input data, you think that there is going to be absolutely no side effects from this?

>>12258632
I can easily see a future medical problem where early adopters suffer from weakened areas in the skull from repeated openings and healings in the exact same area.

>The Warrior's bland acronym, MMI, obscures the true horror of this monstrosity. Its inventors promise a new era of genius, but meanwhile unscrupulous power brokers use its forcible installation to violate the sanctity of unwilling human minds. They are creating their own private army of demons.

>>12258648
I drew you this, as I feel like I need to approach this like I'm talking to a child.
No new neurons have to come from anywhere, external input replaces internal input.

>>12257606
popups? agent smith ai controlled by some dictator will override controls and you will be a literal slave for a lifetime

>>12258670
can't tell if trolling or serious

>>12258681
50/50

>>12258670
>pic related
Fucking kek

>>12258611
>And also absolutely fucking terrifying the more it improves. Imagine someone literally remotely hacking your brain to make your body do shit. Imagine a bad firmware update turning you into a vegetable. Keep that shit away from my brain, honestly.

This. The idea of a writeable brain interface is so obviously, thoroughly destructive and horrifying. Anything networked can be hacked, and people keep trying to pretend that's not the case, and they always get proved wrong. The results inside the very thing that makes us conscious, sentient beings? Why would you even want to find out?

This doesn't even get at horrible it would be for just, like, basic human dignity and autonomy. Imagine lobotomies, except the victim is still able to be a wage drone. Forced on everyone who crosses some threshold of being labeled "crazy" or "criminal."

I'm not a luddite or primmie at all, I hope we keep basically all of our current tech through the upheavals to come this century, but honestly, I hope the research base for this collapses before it comes, and if not, honestly, burn down all of civilization to stop it.

>>12258517
>>12258611
I can't fucking wait for Stallman to be right again as our tech overlords upload behavior manipulation algorithms directly into our fucking brainstem through completely unauditable closed source hardware and software.

>>12258670
ahhh the shim....

>>12258611
finally i will have an excuse to act retarded

>>12258611
>>12258773
Just because there's the potential for something to go wrong doesn't mean it shouldn't be pursued.
You wouldn't say that cars never should have been invented due to the high incidence of fatal accidents.

>>12257000
Remember how jetpacks and flying cars never became a thing?
Yeah that's brain interfaces

>>12258986
Get the chip goy, no you can't view the proprietary code, that's our intellectual property.

>>12259003
Are you under the impression that there will only ever be one company or group that produces BCIs?

>>12259014
Look at the state of smartphones today. You can't find a single one by any manufacturer that isn't pozzed to some degree.

>>12258999
>jetpacks
You can literally buy one right now.

>>12259020
Perhaps not one of any particular quality, but it also takes me only five minutes to jailbreak/root almost any device on the market and clear out the poz.
With the amount of autism that surrounds the homebrewing and open source communities, you can bet your ass there'll be a NeuraLinux distro before you can fucking blink.
It'll probably be called NeuraLinux too.

>>12259022
Exactly. But they're not very common nor usable.

Brain interfaces will be an aid for disabled people, as they already are with things like hearing aid/similar. But if someone wanna pretend they're disabled; be my guest

>>12259034
Jetpacks aren't common because their not convenient. If jetpack technology somehow slimmed down into the shit you see in cartoons and movies, you'd best believe college kids would be jetpacking back and forth between class.

>>12259034
>Brain interfaces will be an aid for disabled people, as they already are with things like hearing aid/similar.
You realize that Valve is actively working on using BCIs for vidya, right?

>>12257000
Brain interfaces should be illegal.

>>12258986
>Just because there's the potential for something to go wrong doesn't mean it shouldn't be pursued.

Yes it does, if the “go wrong” is certain and extremely dangerous, as is the case for this dystopian brain chip shit.

>>12257000
>mfw the chip in your head makes you mandatory think of advertised products and you can't stop it.
>mfw companies start patterning parts of the brain on how implants can be connected, like that one company that one time tried to pattern part of the human genome but this time it passes.
>Mfw the next generations think these two things are ok and just part of life.
>mfw I have no face because I don't remember who I am because by then I will have severe dementia.

>>12259252
>makes you mandatory think of advertised products and you can't stop it
>gives you pleasure when you look at their product
>even more when you buy their product
>now all you do is drink can after can of mountain dew because it gives you an orgasm

>>12259262
Ted was right

>>12257000
20 years ago in the past.

>>12259265
Always has been, always will be.

>>12257095
Why is /sci/ is so filled with unvisionary brainlets?

>>12257000
https://www.unz.com/akarlin/neural-augs-are-hard/

>>12259029
>but it also takes me only five minutes to jailbreak/root almost any device on the market and clear out the poz.

Imagine thinking its not backdoored at the hardware level.

>>12258986
I mean... I don't want to eliminate our ability to use and make cars now that we have it, but also it's kind of hard to argue their mass adoption wasn't and isn't a disaster? Crashes (I wonder how ambulances balance that) and the whole internal combustion climate shit totally aside, catering to them really fucked up urban development during its periods of greatest expansion, with only a slight correction now.

>>12257062
>>12257133
Baseline humans will have to be put in reeducation camps anyway because else they'd try to genocide those with BCI and their overlords

The best way to go about it. Is to start implanting fetuses in the third trimester. Then keep adding to it as the person grows.

>Duplex brain interfaces are invented
>Interfacing is mostly used to overcome mental diseases
>Fast forward few years. Interfacing enters consumer market
>Fast forward few years. Country with high GDP per capita. Rich, peaceful city
>Enhanced kid flips out in a crowded place (think uni campus or festival)
>Goes on a rampage using weapons of opportunity
>Unenhanced law enforcement units arrive
>Kid murders them with IEDs made on scene
>Special forces are deployed
>Kid is taken down, but multiple operatives are wounded. This tragedy becomes worldwide news
>Bills mandating neutering violent tendencies in any person who undergoes interfacing, in order to prevents incidents like this in the future, are passed
>Fast forward few months. A study is published claiming that neutering has a side effect of making people docile. Study is quickly dismissed
>Some brainlet undergoes enhancement, becomes Nobel prize nominee
>Literally who athlete rises to the top because interface "allowed him to dull the pain, stay motivated and keep tearing the body apart when there's no strength left"
>Interfacing rises in popularity
>People try to hack into the interfaces to disable the violence lock. Black market interfaces become a thing. A terrorist group pops up out of nowhere, leader is rumored to have a hacked interface
>The group is very efficient in its violence. Always two steps ahead of the law enforcement agencies
>More bills are passed towards control over brain interfaces. World agency responsible for brain interfaces is created. A special watcher software becomes mandatory. It doesn't invade privacy, just notifies if someone's meddling with the hardware
>A redpill about backdoor in watcher software appears. Is dismissed as a tinfoil conspiracy
>Masses rush to get interfaced. A few of the (((rich))) are interfaced as well
>Fast forward few years. Superhuman wagecucks lack any drive to make it
>Young still willingly get enhanced, because the interface entertainment is cooler

How long until I can browse 4chan “in my eyes”?

>>12259427
Sounds good to me

>>12259341
Remember the NSA has admitted to promulgating security protocols they knew how to hack, even though this made basically every US-manufactured router vulnerable back in the 00s.

>>12259317
I like how this article completely ignores the fact that BCIs aren't a new thing.
The technology already exists, we're only discussing improving it.

>>12259299
Cope

>>12257000
It took less than twenty years for smartphones to become ubiquitous. I'd say as long as the connecting is invasive, it'll take much longer. Also depending on whether there will be a civil war in the western world.

>>12257285
>>12259299
I agree with these posts.

One of the reasons for why we're not making much progress now is faggots thinking something is impossible and therefore not even trying. Shitty attitude to display on a science board and in modern times in general.

>>12259877
Fortunately, the attitude of fatalistic retards on /sci/ hardly reflects the larger scientific community.

>>12259636
Soon™

>>12259895
You must be lucky. The guys I work with don't take any risks. All grant farming, no game.

>>12259041
>Jetpacks aren't common because their not convenient.
Aaand that's where brain interfaces fall also. People don't even like the idea of getting lenses, since it'll fuck with their body too much.

>>12259149
>You realize that Valve is actively working on using BCIs for vidya, right?
They also made half-life: Alyx, which turned out to become a total niche (although a good one). VR won't take off either.

>>12260061
>valve is working on technology A
>yeah but they made a game for technology B
I fail to see the connection

>>12260061
>VR won't take off either
Nice cope, poorfag.

>>12259877
Explain how you can solve an NP-Hard problem with 100 billion parameters or stop shitting up the board with your sci fi cope nonsense.

>>12259895
You are the retard here.
Answer >>12260134 Or stfu and stop shitting up the science board with science fiction.

>>12260061
>VR won't take off either.

>>12260126
You've been saying it'll take off for 4 years now, it's getting old.

>>12260122
>I fail to see the connection
Using valve as an argument for a technology to take off isn't valid since valve clearly isn't the company they were 20 years ago

>>12260147
OH NO NO NO

>>12260147
The original argument was that BCIs would solely be developed for medical use. Valve is expressing a significant interest in BCIs for gaming, which means they're probably not the only company working on it.

>>12260151
>amount of VR gamers grows approximately at the same rate as the amount of gamers in the entire world

yeah wow brooo, totz gonna take off man, put pension fund into vive maaaaan

>>12260170
Yeah they have the resources to take a loss, clearly. Doesn't mean it'll take off. Just like how they pumped so many millions into hl:a

>>12260134
Define "solving" you coping beta. Who says we need to solve some abstract problem in order to achieve useful results? See chess and go. Now fuck off with your downer attitude.

>>12260170
Historically, the poem industry was the main decision maker for recreational technologies.

We are hitting the end of technology.
Some people believe that we're about to enter some exponential increase in technology and hit the singularity in like ~25 years.
This will not happen. Instead, in about ~10 years will hit the final wall, where any further advancement in technology will require solving problems that simply can not be solved, because they involving computing solutions that require search spaces larger than the amount of atoms in the universe, or finding exact solutions to PDEs that can' be found, etc.
This is why we don't see aliens. It's not because aliens dont exist (The universe is teeming with intelligent life as smart as humans) it's because the laws of physics, chemistry, and computation do not allow further sophistication beyond this "technological upper bound".

>>12260187
*porn industry

>>12260186
>Just like how they pumped so many millions into hl:a
You mean the game that convinced Gabe that VR games are financially viable?

>>12260187
>Define "solving" you coping beta. Who says we need to solve some abstract problem in order to achieve useful results? See chess and go. Now fuck off with your downer attitude.
You are the one coping here, you projecting brainlet.
When it comes to drawing images into your eyes and field of vision, you need an exact solution to how your neurons fire in order to paint the image.
This was shown to be impossible back in the seventies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_ZuWbX-CyE

>>12260187
>>12260195
You're right about porn being a big driver, poems maybe not so much.
But if we're going down this road, VR porn is a step above a phone screen in one hand and your dick in the other.
I can't even imagine the scale of the porn industry that would rise up around full sensory immersion.

>>12260198
>This was shown to be impossible back in the seventies.
And they used to think the sun revolved around the earth, so what?

>>12260196
>You mean the game that convinced Gabe that VR games are financially viable?
https://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2020/05/half-life-alyx-valve-profit.html

Except that it most probably isn't.

>>12260205
Gabe literally gave a mass interview via discord this week saying that they're moving forward with VR and making progress with BCIs.
https://youtu.be/o1PQQ32rz78

>>12260193
Kill yourself, nihilistic faggot

>>12260193
Yes, we live in the end of history and technology.
Just like they did in 1820 and 1920.

>>12260203
Cope
As we learn more about how the universe works, our understanding of what is possible and not possible also converges to the truth. They didn't have an understanding of linear algebra or differential equations back then.
Now we have the entire field of chemistry, and computer science, and have been able to find subatomic fundamental particles.
Our vision of the universe is not wrong anymore like it was back then. Showing that a problem requires a search space that is too large to be computed is a proof of intractability (impossibility).
Coping by making platitude arguments ("they used to think the earth went around the sun! they used to think planes were impossible!") is the hot hand fallacy and has no bearing on the modern world and modern problems.
>>12260212
Cope
>>12260215
See above.

>>12260206
Idgaf what Gabe thinks. VR is most probably isn't profitable. But he's making so much on knife/hat sales that he can risk an investment just in case. Which is exactly where "brain interface games" (do you even hear how insane this sounds..?) places

>>12257000
Must suck when you installed Brain Interface V1 and then whops Brain Interface V2 came out next year. And 10 years later, your Brain Interface V1 actually no longer is supported, so you just have a useless electronic dongle installed into your head which you can't remove, which you can't use and will corrode and cause a tumor within 20 years or so.

Remember iPhone 1? Yeah, me neither. Even if it was really revolutionary.

>>12260219
>the hot hand fallacy
Lead with the bait next time retard-kum

>>12260219
>the hot hand fallacy
Lead with the bait next time retard-kun

>>12260249
>which you can't remove
Why would you not be able to remove it? The whole point of Neuralink is that it can be easily and safely removed without consequences. They showed it on a pig at their last progress update.

>>12260224
>"brain interface games" (do you even hear how insane this sounds..?)
What's insane about it?

>>12260269
Then why does it need a surgery?

>>12260301
I suppose it's subjective. But then again, I don't see much difference between a 10 hour VR session and a 10 hour DMT session

>>12260320
>why does a thing that goes in your skull and directly connects to your brain require surgery
I believe that you have the ability to solve this riddle.

>>12260320
Because it connects directly to the brain. What kind of question is that?

>>12260269
Ok i saw the pig part now. And are you seriously believing that you, and 100 000 others, who have installed the neuralink into your brain, will get any support when you, and 100 000 + 200 000 others, wants to upgrade to neuralink 2.0?

Try getting a playstation 5 right now, on release. You can't. It's completely preordered due to excessive demand. And that's simply electronics. Now you're talking about a product which will need minimum 12 hours operation into your brain. That is; electronics + manpower to surgically place it, and you believe that you'll get any sort of support for this at all? Imagine if there's 99.99% success, and the rest fails. That's still THOUSANDS of electronical devices which needs to be surgically removed.

And this is basically neurosurgeons which must oversee these sorts of operations. To install a toy. Imagine the price.

>>12260332
I believe you see my point in this not being a device which is easily plugged in and out, though. You can't just plug shit into the brain like the matrix.

How many pigs do you think have died before they had the successful one in the demo?

>>12260357
>Imagine the price
See >>12257584

>>12260365
>How many pigs do you think have died before they had the successful one in the demo?
Probably zero, considering they figured the process out on rats.

>>12260366
That's in monetary value, which is highly speculative and probably incorrect.
What could the literal brain surgeons have done instead of installing shitty toys into someone's brain because some car company payed them to?

>>12260372
What could the brain surgeons do instead of installing a device that has the potential to cure all known brain ailments and restore lost limb functionality?
I dunno, jack off or something?

>>12260381
>a device that has the potential to cure all known brain ailments and restore lost limb functionality
I see you fell for the sales pitch. If this was the case, it would already be on the market. Much like how Musk is trying to re-sell landing on the moon.

>>12260357
>which will need minimum 12 hours operation into your brain
Make it 2 hours tops.

>>12260372
>What could the literal brain surgeons have done instead of installing shitty toys into someone's brain
The implant is installed by a sewing machine. See: >>12260336

>>12260390
>fell for the sales pitch
You realize neuralink isn't the only company working on BCIs, right? You're the one who keeps bringing Musk into this.
>the moon
You mean the place we need to have a base on in order to make it to Mars?
That moon?

>>12260394
>The implant is installed by a sewing machine. See: >>12260336
... are you daft..? Do you know what governmental regulations are..? You can't just "do shit", even if they can in your (and Musk's) favorite tv-shows. For example, even the cybertruck is banned in most European countries https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/tesla-cybertruck-rejected-by-europe/

Explain to me, how will you provide customer support for a neuralink malfunction in Romania?

>>12260400
>You realize neuralink isn't the only company working on BCIs, right? You're the one who keeps bringing Musk into this.
Bring me some others to investigate. Musk is shit. If there's some potential, I'm genuinely interested

>You mean the place we need to have a base on in order to make it to Mars?
If you believe he's actually going to make it to Mars you're highly delusional. But the highly estimated deadline is still active, i suppose. To me, the difference between Musk and Holmes is merely luck and about 5% of competence

Hopefully never, why would I want to trust some company to have access to my brain? We've seen how silicon valley operates just with social media alone.

>>12260430
https://www.forbes.com/sites/cathyhackl/2020/06/21/meet-10-companies-working-on-reading-your-thoughts-and-even-those-of-your-pets/
Not sure how many of these are intercranial vs transcranial, but it should be enough to give you an idea of the emerging market for this tech.

>>12260410
>For example, even the cybertruck is banned in most European countries
First, it's banned because it's too big. Musk himself said that the thing will need to be downsized if he wants to sell it. Second, how is this relevant?

>Governmental regulations
I don't really get what you are trying to say there. The sewing machine is a necessary part of the installation. A human surgeon can't install 10000 thinner than a hair electrodes.

>Explain to me, how will you provide customer support for a neuralink malfunction in Romania?
What?

>>12260410
>how will you provide customer support for a neuralink malfunction in Romania?
Don't sell them in Romania
Fuck me that was easy

>>12260454
>What?
I'm pretty sure there's customer support for iPhones in Romania. Neuralink? Imagine the infrastructure. Customer support can't really tell the customers to replace their display, since the display requires a neurosurgeon to replace.

>I don't really get what you are trying to say there. The sewing machine is a necessary part of the installation. A human surgeon can't install 10000 thinner than a hair electrodes.
Is there non-human supervised surgeries anywhere in the world today? I don't think there is, correct me if I'm wrong. In the same way we don't even let cars drive without a real human behind the drive (spare me the edge case experiments, this is CARS we're talking about), non-human surgeries won't happen anytime soon.

>how is this relevant?
If a brainchild like the Cybertruck can't be sold anywhere but the 'murica, how can something like neuralink? It won't ever be common as phones, since that's sold everywhere

>>12260456
Then it wont be as common as phones huh..?

>>12260492
>non-human surgeries won't happen anytime soon
Bruh.

>>12260511
are you acting dumb or are you actually..?

>>12260492
>non-human supervised
Who said anything about zero supervision?
>way we don't even let cars drive without a real human behind the drive
>spare me the edge case experiments
You're upset because an experimental technology isn't mainstream, and you don't want to hear about how it's experimental?
Tesla literally just launched the FSD beta, the technology is in progress.

>>12257000
Some little squirmy nerd play-thing in your brain? hah god, how awful.

>>12260521
>Who said anything about zero supervision?
I did. The supervision is NEUROSURGEONS. Do you know how fucking expensive that is?

>>12260528
For a two hour procedure after the process has been solidified?
Probably a couple grand.
Not sure why you're getting so assblasted over the idea that installing cutting edge technology into your brain might be a tad bit pricey?

>>12260518
I'm saying that if Musk's sewing machine passes FDA approval and the human trials, it will become legal to use it under human supervision. Besides, someone's gotta drill a hole in you head first. No one here said anything about the process being unsupervised.

>>12260528
>I did
Ah. I see.

>>12257000
All I know is that if neuralink ever goes public, I'm throwing a fuckload of cash at it.
No way I'm missing that boat.

>>12260438
>why would I want to trust some company to have access to my brain?
it's not going to be your brain anymore if you put the chip in your mind, especially if some a.i. wants to use your neurons for some fuzzy logic computing without your consent.

>>12260637
My point stands then for different reasons lol

>>12260518
Are you implying that robotic surgery never happens?

>>12260198
>memespeak and fifty year old arguments
Are you a boomer or just a Dunning-Kruger victim?
Go was proven to be unsolvable and yet, we created a machine that outperforms the best humans easily. Chess is still unsolved yet, no human can compete with computers.
You are extremely narrow-minded and probably also very old, at least in your mind.
Btw I attended a presentation literally a few hours ago about deep-learned models to understand visual cortex function. They used an extremely clean and academic test setup without realistic noise, but the results surely point in a promising direction.

>>12260199
Well we already have synchronizeable sex robots. I would say we're not far from total immersion.

>>12260219
>cope
>cope
>cope
Do you even know what that word means you insufferable cunt?
>Showing that a problem requires a search space that is too large to be computed is a proof of intractability (impossibility).
Holy shit you're dense.

>>12260502
Sell it to the US, China, Europe, India. There you go, majority of the developed world ez.

>>12260943
>I attended a presentation literally a few hours ago about deep-learned models to understand visual cortex function. They used an extremely clean and academic test setup without realistic noise, but the results surely point in a promising direction.
That's amazingly relevant.
What was the context of the presentation? Was it just to show off the models or was it packaged as part of a larger project?

>>12261027
It's part of a larger project to gain a better understanding of neuron activations and mapping the brain. Their group focused on the visual cortex and the results were really preliminary and gained with extremely clean data as mentioned, so to be honest I'm not exactly sure how to take their results.
I'm not sure how much I can tell without revealing too much about me. The presenter was a former postdoc of this guy from MIT: http://cbcl.mit.edu/people/poggio/poggio-new.htm
Despite the imho questionable application to neuron mapping, they created a cool approach for transfer learning by defining and constructing a "task similarity matrix", that measures how closely related certain tasks are that ML models can tackle. They then performed a cluster analysis to identify four main topics and identified the tasks in those clusters. These tasks can then be evaluated and used for transfer learning approaches as a feasible starting point for further optimization. That was pretty cool.

>>12257000
I used to work in a BMI lab. There's basically 2 ways to make a brain machine interface.

The first way is you actually implant an electrode into a specific section of the brain, usually part of the motor cortex corresponding to a specific, stereotyped movement, for example moving your hand to the left or right. This electrode will receive a signal when you perform this motion, and you can use that to do something like moving a cursor. You can then take advantage of your own neuroplasticity and learn to get better at moving this cursor just like you would learn to use a new tool, eventually you can learn to do it by thinking about moving your hand, and then, thinking about moving the cursor. This is about as useful as using your hands, but being able to do it just by thinking could give it some really specific uses. There are basically 2 problems with this system. Firstly you need to have brain surgery to make it work, which is pretty dangerous, and the payoff isn't really worth the risk. Secondly, with our current tech, the electrode is rejected by your immune system within a few weeks and stops working. You could solve this with like targeted immunosuppressants or something, but again, the payoff isn't really worth it. Still this is really the most promising way of doing a brain machine interface.

The second way is to get something like an EEG, and use that as an input to a computer. Then the subject will consciously change their neural state in some detectable way. This is normally done by having the subject think relaxing thoughts, which will result in an increase in detectable alpha waves. the level of alpha waves is used as one axis to move the cursor in. You can do the same with say beta waves for another axis. This is useful in some niche medical settings, my lab was working on using an EEG to control an exoskeleton that would stimulate movements for stroke recovery, but it's not exactly sci fi uploading your mind to the cloud stuff.

>>12261799
What's your opinion on the likelihood of writing to the brain?
Are things like transcranial electromagnetic stimulation promising in their results, or is that completely pointed in the wrong direction?

CAN we do this? Maybe, there's reasonable arguments both ways.

SHOULD we?
>>12258611
>>12258773

Fuck no.

>>12260187
Eh, poetry is pornography and pornography is poetry.

But
>on pornhub.neural
>click on the wrong link
>suddenly you're in knife play with a demon furry
>also you are infected with a virus that compels you to subscribe to a specifc findom site to the tune of 80% your monthly earnings

>>12257015
Actually Musk doesn't care about your virgin-tier "understanding the brain", he just sticks a bunch of electrodes into the brain and uses Advanced Algorithms to do stuff. Simple as.

>>12257033
>Of course, BCIs will advance much quicker than phones did.
Literally why would you assume this. Communicating with the brain is infinitely more challenging than wireless phones, which are basically just a kind of radio.

>>12258462
This is true only for rich people who can afford subscriptions to multiple journals, buying books.. or students with access for them at a discount (entry fee).. or chad pirates who have all of this unlocked literally a click away.

For everyone else, aka the majority it's fake news, pseudoscience and time sink.

>>12259344
Yes it was a disaster.
https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1603448063477.webm

>>12257146
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIAZoGAufSc

>>12262947
>click on the wrong link
Yeah sure pal we believe you

>>12263136
Because scientific output has increased pretty drastically over the last 40 years with more research happening and more and more money flowing.
1983 China was a dump with just handful of even remotely western level research universities. Now are there dozens of them.

>>12263136
For the same reason that all other technological development is following an exponential curve.

>>12260943
>Are you a boomer or just a Dunning-Kruger victim?
Neither
>Go was proven to be unsolvable and yet, we created a machine that outperforms the best humans easily. Chess is still unsolved yet, no human can compete with computers.
Irrelevant. We need exact solutions when we're talking about manipulating human neurons to perform functions that we want.
>You are extremely narrow-minded and probably also very old, at least in your mind
I am neither
>Btw I attended a presentation literally a few hours ago about deep-learned models to understand visual cortex function. They used an extremely clean and academic test setup without realistic noise, but the results surely point in a promising direction.
Irrelevant and will lead to nothing.

You post is literally nothing but wishful thinking cope

>>12260267
You have no argument and are coping.
BCI will literally never happen because they require exact solutions to problems that are far too complex to solve.

>>12263834
Thanks for demonstrating so thoroughly that you're not to be taken seriously.

>>12260974
>Holy shit you're dense.
I'm completely correct and just insulting me, like you faggot morons are doing, is not a proof for how you will solve computationally impossible problems.
If a single neuron doesn't fire properly, you will not get the result you want. You need to organize every neuron, and every set of neurons, and their evolution, perfectly.
This is not computable. We already know this from our research into neural nets. And the human brain is far more complex than the nets we use in computers.

You are all coping wishful thinking retards. This is not science.

>>12263839
I am not demonstrating such a thing.
You being angry at what I am saying does not matter whatsoever.
Until you retards actually provide a proof on how you can possibly reverse engineer the evolution of an already trained net that has 100 billion parameters, literally nothing you are saying is relevant or matters whatsoever.

>>12263837
BCIs already exist, you absolute retard.

>>12263879
Very rudimentary technology that allows for basic things like moving cursors exist. They will not get much more sophisticated than this because the complexity of the problem explodes too rapidly.
You will never get to the point where information can be downloaded into your mind or you can paint sophisticated images in front of your eyes etc.

>>12263850
Why do you assume researchers need to
>reverse engineer the evolution of an already trained net that has 100 billion parameters
That's such a fucking arbitrary requirement

>>12263908
No it isn't arbitrary at all, that is exactly what needs to be done if you want to be able to download information into your brain or paint images in front of your eyes or talk to people telepathically etc.
When you think a thought, a very specific set of neurons fire in an exact pattern. In order for you to think this thought, that pattern must fire.
If a different pattern fires, even if it's just a single synapse in the net, you get a completely different thought, and it branches out to a completely different pattern.
The evolution of the net needs to be exact. So what you could do is perhaps have a chip that tries to just record every pattern. But then you're training a neural net on arbitrary data in order which is shown to be NP-complete.
https://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/pubs/BR93.pdf
>"for any polynomial-time training algorithm there will be some sets of training data on which the algorithm fails to correctly train the network, even though there exist edge weights so the network could correctly classify the data"
This means you CANT EVEN USE machine learning to attempt to reverse engineer the brain. It's already proven to be NP complete, so the possibility of "stick the chip in and have the chip try to learn as it goes" doesn't work.
This technology is not possible, you guys. Its computationally impossible. And unlike playing a game of Go against a computer, we can't afford to make any mistakes or not have a perfect solution, as an imperfect solution will result in you becoming a fucking schizo retard for the rest of your life as the neurons in your brain start firing randomly and it destroys your mind.

>>12263548
No. the brain literally doesn't use binary logic or any form of logic used in computers. yes it is in way algorithmic if you look at it at as machine with input and output but translating the brain from it's biological state into math and computers is an exceedingly difficult process. they were able to see images directly from the eye by taking the signals sent from the eye and modifying them to be able to display them but the quality was dogshit even with top tier accurate equipment because the analogous signals the eye sends are very faint. not to mention the fact that the human body really doesn't like foreign objects and the fact that the brain tissue degrades around said objects.
read this to see how complicated things are. for a task as simple as vision there are multiple types of vision and multiple ways the brains sees things. like i said the computer is a product of human rationality, the brain is a product of evolution.
https://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/10-15-1999.html

>>12264056
Have you listened to that? It agrees with you, but it puts it in formal language and brings more chains of reasoning.

>>12264056
What if it's a scam, I saw that scene in a shitty documentary years ago - TechnoCalyps, no one replicated that, just saw it in a documentary.

>>12263834
>Irrelevant. We need exact solutions when we're talking about manipulating human neurons to perform functions that we want.
Proof? It certainly doesn't seem that way.
>You post is literally nothing but wishful thinking cope
I mentioned real examples. What's your argument besides fantasy about a perfect mathematical world where hundreds of assumptions lead to a perfectly clear statement about a complex system that is as rigorous as it is useless?
>Neither
>I am neither
Seems to me like it's both desu. I agree with the other Anon who replied.

>>12263888
How much you willing to bet? I'll go all in against you, doomer.
>>12263934
>This means you CANT EVEN USE
kek, so you're saying quantum computing is the solution?

>>12263934
>https://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/pubs/BR93.pdf
>1989
GPT-3 absolutely destroys this paper.

>>12264238
>Have you listened to that?
No, i just listened to the first 20 seconds

>>12263934
>Its computationally impossible.
o i am laffin @ u

>>12257015
>A very very long time.
So basically never, since humanity will collapse before "a very very long time".

>>12258406
The shit will be poking your brain with every movement it makes. Have you forgotten the thing is floating in CS Fluid? Have you forgotten you get concussions from fucking breaking at a red lights?

This is the most fucking retarded idea i've ever heard off. Good riddance i'll be dead before seeing patients with the bullshit seizures this thing will cause.

>>12264885
Stick a pin in a piece of jello and jiggle the bowl.
The pin won't suddenly poke new holes in the jello, it moves with it.
What are you on about?

>>12261965
Writing to the brain sounds impossible with our current level of understanding.

TMS is cool but it won't do what you want it to. The effect is transient and the precision isn't there, but most importantly we just don't understand how brain architecture maps onto behaviour and experience well enough. We can point to general areas that, if we fuck them up, will fuck up specific functions, so we can say, this brain region is involved in some way in this process, and is upstream or downstream of this other brain region, depending on how those regions react if we fuck both of them up. In some specific cases like the hippocampus we have a decent understanding of how the signal is processed in parts of this system from electrophysiology studies, but all of this information is from mouse studies. The main limiting factor for messing about with brain function in the way you're describing is our understanding of neuroscience, not the actual technology.

>>12257000
How long since until black hat hackers be able to take control of your body?

Some bodies can be controlled with display. Imagine a weak body with BCI, it's just a bot.

>>12257000
I hope never. It isn't right

>>12268389
>It isn't right
Elaborate.

>>12264903
Hes scared about AI diagnosing his patients instantly and 100% accurately so their condition can actually be treated properly instead of having their insurance company fill his wallet to feed them pills.

>>12268442
Fuck me I hadn't even considered the blow to the pharmaceutical industry.

>>12263934
This all seems trivial in the face of quantum computing, especially in the next ten years or so.

>>12264719
Well he's a sarcastic guy, haha the first 20 seconds start with the premise he destroys later on.
Check it out.

>>12263548
This guy is a fucking joke.

>>12257000
200 years

>>12267494
That's why there needs to be a manual override.

>>12257015
I can't wait until the chinese start implanting on babies and then they just adapt to it from the go and the tech takes off.

>>12257000
As common as phones: assuming you mean 95%?

Its going to be faster than you think. Faster than VR, which is 30 years old. Its simply an interface, so assuming something on the order of a transition from analog to digital, and then tightening the curve up, assuming aggressive development and expansion, then 2030-2050 is likely

>>12269771
I really see a big future of transition where we leave the keyboards and screens and all this macro-electronic bullshit behind and become more truly cyber. Just about everything associated with today's tech is more than 70 years old, and its all problematic. I think Spike Jonze's "Her" is probably most compelling example of what that future might be like

>>12269831
How are you figuring VR to be 30 years old?

>>12271540
Not him, but it's more 25 years (Nintendo Virtual Boy). First one was a product developed by NASA in 1990. Guess that's what he meant, but it wasn't commercially available.

bumo

>>12265298
Unless I'm horribly misunderstanding you, the problem isn't so much our technical ability to alter the brain, but rather our understanding of specifically how the brain needs to be altered.
In other words, the smart money would be to invest in neuroscience research.

>>12257000
Valve is investing heavily in BCI.

>>12257000
it all depends on the preferences of people. I prefer to hold stuff in my hand so having something projected into my eyes isnt really something i want

>>12263134
>Actually Musk doesn't care about your virgin-tier "understanding the brain", he just sticks a bunch of electrodes into the brain and uses Advanced Algorithms to do stuff. Simple as.
I know you're trying to mock it but ML ("Advanced Algorithms") actually does make a lot of this possible even with such an incomplete understanding of the brain. Every person's brain is different anyway, so a fuller understanding wouldn't even be enough. The system trains on each person's neural signals, and in turn each person's brain trains on input from the device.

The input side will be much more difficult, but for output, ML actually does enable you to do things like repeatedly prompting the user to think about certain subjects or images or words, and over time the implant can learn the association with pretty good accuracy. It's constantly learning through deliberate training and regular daily use, not unlike Apple's fingerprint detector or Face ID.

The real challenge is just convincing enough people to literally get brain surgery, with a hole drilled in their skull and lots of wires attached to neural circuits. One small mistake and you may immediately suffer permanent, untreatable brain damage. And if you ever want to get it removed, the removal surgery also risks brain damage. I'd love to try one of these but that risk is way too much for me. I'd be ok with putting something on or near my head, but not literally in my brain

Having a device implanted in your skull that can read your thoughts is just the ultimate dehumanizing experience
It would be enough to drive anyone mad

>>12275151
So that's your excuse?
You're crazy?

>>12275040
>I'd love to try one of these but that risk is way too much for me. I'd be ok with putting something on or near my head, but not literally in my brain
I would need there to have been several years of continuously successful operations before I considered an implant.
Devices like the neuralink surgery robot are certainly promising, but if the boys at neuralink managed to make a robot that can't fuck up, that's more of an achievement than creating a BCI.

>/sci/- Freshman Speculation

>>12257095
you're right about it being NP hard but from an ass backwards perspective
you have a ton of data that detail how particular segments work or pointing out phenomena, where as a result you get a ton of experts that sound like aliens to each other
the problem can be reduced (syntactically) to "the god equation" problem where you need to take all that data and draw postulates where you can draw a roadmap that explains how x -> y happens, this needs to work with animals starting from avians (remember, they have a primitive neurocortex where L23 and L45 are one but somehow does the same thing) to mammals, amphibians can suck it
Numenta is sorta already doing that, go check their livestream

>>12258670
200 IQ post

>>12257062
Why do you think it will not be mandatory in China?

>>12275697
>literally threads full of freshmen asking anons to solve math problems for them
Fuck off

>>12263134
Cringe

>>12257000
when it can simulate climax

>>12257000
Some are commercially available for specific use already. Pic. related,

>>12277640
Or "stimulate"

>>12278609
Is that extracranial?

>>12279073
No, though in the head: https://archive.is/KIsFI
Similar designs use something that looks similar but is placed against the visual cortex but is far more invasive. There is also a problem with neuroelectric interfaces wearing out.

Ah yes, this one was missing.

>>12257015
Bullshit. As soon as even the most basic interface is available there will be hordes of first adopters lining up and shelling out bucks to get wet wired. Cos it will be "like so cool". From that aspiring bunch of voluntary human guinea pigs the flood gates will open up for research previously unavailable. Then discoveries concerning how the human brain works, how it can be meshed with computers, will go through the roof. From that point the availability of improved and more powerful new interfaces will accelerate, in a frenzied positive feedback cycle of increasing neurological knowledge and better interfaces.
The very moment you get some some shit, something like a geek posting on social media straight from his brain, no matter how rudimentary or cumbersome it might be at first, the fucking avalanche will start. It will be a fucking tidal wave. From the first crude implant to a massive population adoption of sophisticated interfaces will be less than a decade.
No one will give a fuck if the occasional nerd gets brain fried. Or concerned or the potential for abuse. Now you can share a image of a cat being cute directly from your mind to the minds of your friends. Just by thinking about it in some sort of protocol. Regulatory powers will be left in the dust, at least during the initial uptake. Almost everyone young will want to be wired. It will make the wild west days of the original internet boom look like a girls scouts picnic. It will be the real wild west.

>>12277640
>when it can simulate climax
This is totally underrated.

The moment there's the mere promise that someone can have porn happening inside their head this thing will take off like a rocket ship. Imagine all the thirsty white incels, all the millions of Pajeets and Chinks. They will lusting hard to get their heads drilled. Even if the first promises of wet chip porn are a blatant rip off and sham, they will be rushing out to get drilled and replugged as many times as it takes to get sweaty VR pussy riding their dicks in glorious fully immersive 3D. You will even get the smell. Imagine that.

Would it theoretically be possible to utilize nanomachines or a similar process to slowly replace segments of the brain (at about the rate the cells may normally be replaced) with synthetic cells and basically convert a real living brain to a positronic/synthetic brain but maintain the the individual

>>12280281
Bane?

>>12281442
>The moment there's the mere promise that someone can have porn happening inside their head this thing will take off like a rocket ship.
You're overestimating the number of cumheads in the real world.

>>12280281
Where's this from?

>>12281488
>Bane?
Yes. Pic. related.

>>12281531
>Where's this from?
Eudeamon, a science fiction story that is about this topic. At first it might seem rather fetishistic but it is a pretty good story.

>>12281406
>From that aspiring bunch of voluntary human guinea pigs the flood gates will open up for research previously unavailable. Then discoveries concerning how the human brain works, how it can be meshed with computers, will go through the roof. From that point the availability of improved and more powerful new interfaces will accelerate, in a frenzied positive feedback cycle of increasing neurological knowledge and better interfaces.
Bingo
Smartest post itt

>the end goal of science was just to dehumanize ourselves
What was even the fucking point then?

>>12282055
>becoming superhuman is dehumanizing
Retard

I wonder what the piracy market will look like

>>12282851
When Apple launches iBrane, customers will sign up in droves, whereupon Apple will exploit them to their last neuron. FB and Google will do the same but their users will (perhaps) have more caution, but some will still go into the cauldron.

So after people will be enslaved in a way not seen since The Matrix, a Morpheus character will come, no doubt. A Trinity in hot latex is also needed. And brain hacks will commence.

Boomers should be using DoD money for curing Alzheimer & dementia, not regime changing Iran & China.

>>12257000
Never

>>12257000
Imagine they find a way using brain interfaces to cure all mental disorders. How cool that be.

>>12283126
It would be especially cool if they could cure things like short-term memory loss. I think that, combined with Alzheimer's, are the two most important things to focus on.
It would also be cool if they tried to solve short-term memory loss.

>>12283126
Most mental disorders are chemical

>>12260370
Looks kinda cute. I feel bad for it desu. Animal testing should only be done on ugly ones like pitbulls or mandrills.

>>12285377
Or the Chinese

Everyone assumes we're going to do a lot of hard and safe work to figure out the interface of these things. That's not going to happen. The way you get fast development of these things is simple. You stick them in as many humans as possible and you throw random data at it. You end up killing most of them in the process but by the end you know how to install and make software for them safely. I feel like they've gotten further along that we think considering how much human experimentation is going on in China right now.

>>12286659
I'm more than comfortable trading a couple thousand chinamen for BCIs.
Matter of fact, I'd say they owe us at least that much after this virus shit.

>>12280281
>>12281833
Never post those again.

>>12257015
You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. The interface itself is what will allow us to understand and document the brain more effectively.

>>12286659
you belong in /x/

>>12260370
>usb
I wonder what happens if you try connecting a flash drive

>>12288799

>>12257000
Gee, I wonder how many of these posters are Tesla fanboys who don't even know how to use a calculator.

Bidirectional BCIs will NEVER HAPPEN FAGGOTS.

>>12289366
Post proofs
No evidence

>>12289366
Oh, it's the
>in a perfect mathematical world I assumed you'd need to get activations of every single neuron and calculated that it's NP-hard and everybody who disagrees with either my baseless assumption or calculation is a brainlet
fag again. How's it goin'?

>>12263134
Kys Muskrat

>>12288442
Why? The story is good and also relevant here.

>>12258213
>don't not want
OK retard

>>12263837
>they require exact solutions to problems that are far too complex to solve
Imagine being this retarded. Name one problem that is too complex to solve, retard.

>>12290725
how2getGF

i see neuralink being useful to disabled people, especially with prosthetics. might even become revolutionary.
not useful for normal people for now, no benefits. smartphone works fine.

>>12292267
>not useful for normal people
That still leaves criminals, see >>12281833 and >>12280281

>>12257000
If elons neural link can make me feel happy and content even if I'm a slave I'll happily wear it. Even if elon wants to put his fat african dick in my boody I'm sure he can just turn the device to make me like it (or does he have to?).

>>12257015
To be fair we already understand from previous trials that the brain itself is an extremely adaptive organ. Literally the only thing you have to do is create the interface, and some way for the brain to get recognizable request/respond feedback from it.

Take for instance the robotic arm trials with monkeys in 2008. All they had to do was add a chip to the brain that when properly stimulated, would move a robotic arm every which way. The monkey brain would very quickly pick up that they could control how that robotic arm acted, adapt, and in a short time literally create an extension of the monkey's body to that arm. It seems conceivable that you could take a human baby brain and interface it with all manner of creatures whose senses, physiology, motion, number and type of limbs and all were completely different from our own. And the brain would just map it all out, and adapt.

I'm confident that something like Neuralink will enable lightning fast thought-based control of regular UI displays and some more complex commands already. That doesn't seem to be hard at all, because the brain does all the work.

What is hard, is designing a system that can read and interpret the brain without the brain's own knowledge or control, or even write information into it without the brain's own consent. The fact that this is hard, is a very good thing for us.

>>12292460
>The fact that this is hard, is a very good thing for us.
Good for now, but it won't be hard for too much longer.
As we gather more information from installed BCIs and figure out the various processes that make the finer elements of the brain tick, it will become easier to devise a means by which we can write to the brain.

>>12260193
nonsense, just the ability to cheaply (orders of magnitude - on par with how energetically cheap cells do it) synthesize arbitrary dna would be an absolute revolution. Imagine if anyone could try their hand at bioengineering in the same way software coding is available today.
There's nothing intractable about aging or lack of organ regeneration, there are organisms that do them, it's an engineering question to do the same to humans. There's no reason to think that even biological intelligence has hit any boundaries, our brains can't get bigger because of the birth process. What would happen if you made a human with 10x more neurons? We can observe general scaling trends by comparing human brains to brains of other primates - it's a purely quantitative difference rather than qualitative (we don't have any special human-only structures).

There are also computation methods that we know are orders of magnitude more powerful (quantum flux parametron) it's just an engineering problem.

The only thing I'm worried about is that we are already past peak number of high iq people in the current civilizational trend (radical inventions like antiaging can of course change that). Iq is strongly correlated with below replacement fertility both intra and extra racially, the worst possible situation. It's very well possible that technology is near its peak because of social reason, in which case it could take hundreds or even thousands of years for the next chance.

>>12292671
>already past peak number of high iq people in the current civilizational trend
Cite?
The concern I have is that all low hanging fruits are picked and that we are approaching the knowledge event horizon.
Massive scientific fraud does not help much either.

>>12281833
>Eudeamon
that was a good scifi story, thanks.
http://www.evil-dolly.com/assets/eudeamon.pdf

for everyone else, it's not smut, although it has some minor sexual elements. A good read.

>>12293136
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/iq-rates-are-dropping-many-developed-countries-doesn-t-bode-ncna1008576
+ below replacement fertility in developed countries in general. Only several African countries have positive fertility rate, and interestingly, Orthodox Jews (including in America). The first are in the 70-80 iq range, so completely worthless, Orthodox Jews are probably about 100, but they are not going to help develop technology anytime soon, and their numbers are relatively tiny anyway.

The reason progress is mostly stagnated is because average iq of scientists and engineers has dropped off a cliff already. A group of 100 130+ iq people is more valuable that 100 130+ iq people in a group of 10k with total average of 105iq, because brainlets prevent smart people from utilizing their potential. That's what happening everywhere in the West - midwit parasites are smothering progress while amassing power using 'diversity' and 'antiracism' as a hammer.
If average iq wasn't dropping in general, it would be a temporary phenomenon - worse things have happened. Unfortunately, by the time the current woke insanity ends, it may be impossible to rebuild - europe blacked, China in their natural stagnation, usa as Brazil 2.0.

We will see within the next 30 years. Maybe technology (especially bci and ai) develops fast enough and midwits become subjugated, or even exterminated - that's the utopia timeline. It's definitely possible. Maybe I'm too pessimistic on China - but historically they are an extremely reactionary culture prone to stagnation when left alone.
>The concern I have is that all low hanging fruits are picked and that we are approaching the knowledge event horizon.
you're moving the goal posts, you wrote something about complexity explosion previously. That may be the case for scifi (things that we don't know are even possible) like ai, cosmic habitats, not for things that already exist - just extremely expensive (dna synthesis) or similar .

I can't wait to mine bitcoin using the brain of retards with neuralink.

>>12257146
>it's impossible to detect proteins and other neurochemicals instantly.
Pretty sure you can with spectroscopy

>>12293465
no, if you mean NMR then no. if you mean regular spectroscopy then also no because proteins are made of the same amino acids arranged differently, all amino acids are made of the same molecules, very very small if at all difference in emission spectrum. not to mention the fact that there is a shit ton of stuff in your blood that will ruin your results, yeah and proteins are very small

>>12293212
>Unfortunately, by the time the current woke insanity ends, it may be impossible to rebuild - europe blacked, China in their natural stagnation, usa as Brazil 2.0.
There are still countries such as Israel, Japan and South Korea. The left is outraged Israel is not importing the very people that has promised to erase them from the face of the earth, but Israel is not swayed.

>you're moving the goal posts,
No, I just added what I felt was an under communicated problem.
>you wrote something about complexity explosion previously.
No. >>12293136 was my first post in this thread.
>That may be the case for scifi (things that we don't know are even possible) like ai, cosmic habitats, not for things that already exist - just extremely expensive (dna synthesis) or similar .
I am not sure what this means. The knowledge event horizon is just that to gain new knowledge we need to learn more and more over time, as the new generation has to learn also what the old generation discovered, until we are so old that we practically have retired. Einstein was in his 20's when he made his breakthroughs, the Nobel Laureates in our times are much older.

>>12293589
>Israel is not swayed
Netanyahu's nationalist faction is losing power and the globalist faction is starting to take hold. Israel might end up like the rest of us on a delay.

>>12257000
My best guess at spitballing would say 43 years, probably we'll know the major companies in 32-39 years

>>12293805
The Chinese might use a million Uighur volunteers to beat the competition.

>>12293794
>Israel might end up like the rest of us on a delay.
Fingers crossed they get a taste of their own medicine

>>12257000
The same time we get commercially viable fusion power, infinite human life spans, the "cure for cancer", and faster than light spaceships.

>>12257062
I think phones will peak and recede even before brain interface enters the picture that will accelerate rapidly. My timeline estimate is much sooner than yours, and I'm starting to doubt mine is far too late, still. Maybe before 2030

>>12294653
By 2030:
>commercially viable fusion power, infinite human life spans, the "cure for cancer"

Bit longer:
>faster than light spaceships.

>>12294653
So by the 2050s?

>>12293212
>progress is mostly stagnated is because average iq of scientists and engineers has dropped off a cliff

Get a load of this Dunning-Kreuger specimen

>brainlets prevent smart people from utilizing their potential.
should be "adults" prevent "kids" from "realizing" their potential. Moving society's intelligence upfield is the job of education, and education's a joke. Nevertheless, what effectiveness its had is raising a country's IQ, that much is proven to be true. What we have is not " midwit parasites are smothering progress while amassing power using 'diversity' and 'antiracism' " but middle to low-brow culture and a retrograde education system, at least in my country. Imagine making symbolic logic a primary school pre-requisite & then what- get rid of all grades and syllabus, let teachers off the chain. Stop grading and sorting kids like widgets... imagine

>>12258773
Nonsense, the XYZ corporation absolutely GUARANTEES the security of your personal access codes! Your data is safe with us!

Likewise, anything which connects you with a government service will ABSOLUTELY respect and maintain your complete privacy!

>>12259262
>now all you do is drink can after can of mountain dew because it gives you an orgasm
Where do I sign up?

>>12260357
Whats the problem? We would just get in shiploads of neurosurgeons from India.

>>12294719
Well, he does cite a source, though no explanation is given for the effect. What is your take on that paper?

>>12257000
Our lizard brains are easily manipulated, if this happened we would be turned into addicted drones with no control at all.

So never. Lots of innovations get shit canned before anyone finds out anything about them already, this would be the same.

50 years.

>>12257000
Alex Jones has a point; do you really want Big Tech interfering with your brain?

>>12281833
>has face was trapped

>>12295555
Not just the face.

>>12257000
>http://www.evil-dolly.com/assets/eudeamon.pdf
5 years, but 10 years till people really see it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmGS8onhWv4

Delgados bull was in the 60's/70's.

>>12296366
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yix3x1QR_3A

>>12296421
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5356368A/en
Straight out of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.

>>12296450
What's the effective modern version of a tinfoil hat?

>>12296366
>>12296421
>>12296450
Halloween is over, back to /x/ with you

>>12296838
It may be over but some are too drunk still to understand.

>>12257000
20 years probably

>>12257015
> We'd pretty much need a complete understanding of the human brain
Nope. The brain is very flexible, we don't need to understand shit about the brain because the brain rewires itself to accommodate the new interface. How useful such an interface will be in practice is unknown but it will work to some degree.

>>12257033
You cannot compare two completely unrelated things and make any useful prediction. There are some serious fundamental issues with BCI. Living flesh does not like to interface with lifeless material, we may need scifi level nanotechnology to make good and reliable BCI

>>12296421
ITS CALLED AN ABSENT CEIZURE DUMB ASSES

>>12296749
A top to bottom suit with an unbroken conducting surface, that is no breaks greater than the wavelength you want to stop. It might look like pic. related.

>>12298395
I can see the neck

>>12257000
Am I becoming schizo, or did it look like there was nothing between his fingers for a split second until you looked directly at the image?

>>12257083
>Probably coming before the decade is out.
There's like 60 days left in the decade... Where do I buy it?

>>12299206
It was probably in the blind spot of your dominant eye.

>>12257000
>How long until brain interfaces are as common as phones?
this day will never come

>>12299206
You're probably a schizo regardless of the picture.

>>12258445
>I already have a complex, self maintaining machine which makes coffee when I want it and opens doors for me before I walk into them.
I like where this joke is going...
>It's called a body
Oh

>>12257000
Never, and they should be banned.

>>12299202
We have alternatives.

Good thread, lads.

>>12285377
or Niggers

>>12302653
Yes. These, and autism threads, are the best around here.