/sci/ - Science & Math

>>12068961
your mom

>>12068961
According to our predictions, there should be a point of infinite density - a singularity - that all incoming matter and energy gets syphoned into. But we don't know for sure, and will likely never know due to the fact that nothing can escape the event horizon.

>implying black holes have a center

>>12068961

>>12068961
Goatse

How does hawking radiation escape the event horizon anyway? Is the gravitational pull just not strong enough?

>>12069098
>infinite
Not necessarily. Just dense enough that light doesn't escape.

>>12069098
>actual infinities
come on ...

>>12068961
>>12069599
gaysex

>>12069616
>>12069753
The whole point of a singularity is that it is, well, a point, as in it has no volume. And if you try to calculate its density, you are forced to divide by 0, which you can't do. Technically speaking, density isn't applicable to black holes.

>>12069614
Near the EH, part of the gravity field's energy turns into two particles. By becoming real, they take away 2 units of energy from the gravity field i.e. the black hole. One of the particles escapes while the other falls in. End result is the gravity field weakening by 1 energy unit. Weaker field = smaller BH.

>>12069098
Infinities don't exist. And no, the Universe is not infinite.

>>12070601
>>12069802

>>12069802
In other words a black hole is simply an area that has been completely filled up with matter. The matter is all compressed together into a TRUE solid with no space between any of the particles.

>>12070804
No, that's a neutron star.

>>12069098
It can't be a point because a point can't rotate, and black holes rotate.

>>12069753
Human stupidity is one actual infinity that does exist, cope.

>>12069098
>infinite
How can there be infinite density if there's only a finite amount of matter in the universe?

>>12069802
How can division by zero appear in nature? That's spooky as fuck.

>>12070814
Is a black hole not just a massive neutron star?

>>12072418
Not really. A neutron star is made of compactified neutrons. A black hole is an area of spacetime where gravity is so strong that even light can't escape past a certain point (the event horizon). The inside of it is theorised to contain a singularity - a point with mass, or if the black hole is spinning - a ringularity, a 0 thickness ring with mass. We are not sure though. It may just be a perfectly compact ball of quarks for all we know.

>>12070601
Yes it does you coping retard

The event horizon is basically a surface beyond which we don't know what happens, with infinite curvature so that nothing can escape.

>>12072393
Finite mass / Zero volume => Infinite Density
We are basically dividing by zero, that's where the singularity gets its name

Y know, a super massive black hole, the gravity at the edge of its event horizon is almost negligible, as in, it wouldn’t spaghettify you. Would take 50 years with an ion drive to get to ours
Whose up?

>>12073799
>Several thousand light years
>50 years with an ion drive
Bullshit.

>>12072408
Physicists like to meme up shit. The singularity means s limitation of the theory which it's belived to be solved by a quantum theoru of gravity. It really just means there are objects the theory cannot model.

It's just matter collapsing inward. Time dilation means that it'll only fall for some minuscule fraction of a second before the black hole evaporates.

how can something exist if it has no dimensions ?

>>12073985
Well the universe doesn't either

>>12068961

>>12068961
There is a planck star inside that explodes immediately. However due to the extreme gravitational time dilation, this takes longer than the age of the universe for an outside observer

https://arxiv.org/abs/1401.6562

>>12068961
the three space-like dimensions become time-like, and the timelike dimension becomes space-like

>>12069098
Infinity is not a physical thing. It is an abstract construct that has nothing to do with reality. We just cannot calculate to 'see' what's beyond the event horizon and the math we use gives us infinity in solution. This is retarded. The solutions shout in our face that what we get from them is ridiculous and yet so many people repeat this nonsense that there is an infinite singularity in the center of black hole. It is the same with elemental particles: they have mass, they have momentum, they behave like particles, but at the same time they are excitations of fields with no physical dimensions or in other words the particles are infinitesimally small, just because the math works, not because that is the reality.

>>12073985
Ideas exist, but that's probably not what you mean.

>>12074048
See: >>12069802 >>12073798

>>12074054
A 0 dimensional object or an object with a nonexistent volume and infinite mass has no physical sense. It may be mathematically convenient and allows us to do the calculations (to some extent) but it is a purely abstract concept nonetheless, with no physical meaning. It doesn't exist.

>>12068961
Hyper compressed matter

>>12074093
Dimensionality is virtual

>>12068961
Black holes are basically pure quark stars or pure quark matter objects if you prefer. If you take regular matter and compress it to such extent that all the 'regular' particles cease to exist, all what you will be left with is a quark soup. Since you cannot destroy or create energy in the center the soup is constantly boiling, i.e. the quarks are being converted to energy and new quarks are being formed in the process. It's an equilibrium. No photons are being created in the process so the soup it's literally black. Also, closer to the edge of the black hole's event horizon, the photons that cross the event horizon are stretched to a flat signal so the information is lost. The non-masless particles that cross the event horizon are reduced to quarks and add to the black hole mass. It is really simple if you think about it and just try to imagine what is really happening beyond the event horizon. Unfortunately many physicists prefer to calculate first and then infer conclusion from their solutions. So the math goes before the hypothesis. First they create a model and then they try to fit their ideas to the model which gives you nonsensical conclusion like there is a dimensionless point of infinite density at the center of the black hole.

>>12068961
Black holes are objects into which there is a point at which no light can escape. Naturally, this is what makes them black.

Now, how about all the other properties of them? In general relativity, black holes are described by the Schwarzschild solution. This describes the space-time of non-rotating, massive spherically symmetric objects under a certain 'static' condition. They are a vaccum solution, meaning there is no matter in the space-time-so, for say the sun, it applies only up to the surface, and then another solution works for the inside. One doesn't need to worry about the schwarzschild radius then. But, if we concentrate the mass of an object to an incredibly small size, it can be seen that it will invariably be the case that light (and hence mass) heads towards the center-it starts collapsing on itself. As a static solution and taking into these considerations, the mass must all be located at the center. Now, notice the actual size of the black hole doesn't change, since there is the same amount of mass, the Schwarzschild radius is the same and so the same considerations on what distances light can escape apply. It should then be noted a few other things-in the Schwarzschild solution, the center is a true singularity and isn't a really defined point. So, the entire space-time is empty yet the black hole has mass since it has apparently collapsed to a singularity.

The above ideas come from some mathematical derivations of using GR on black holes. The term singularity means just that-a place where a model breaks down in some manner. Also, there are singularity theorems that in general require these in GR. This can act as a tell perhaps that GR doesn't account when one gets on the really small scale and indeed this is where quantum mechanics tends to come in.

>>12069614
Through virtual particles. They constantly appear and merge to return to nothingness. Hawking thought what would happen if this happened right at the event horizon. Pic related shows what would happen.The anti particle falls in the black hole destroying one particle within the black hole while the other one escapes. Excuse the shitty ms paint illustration. I dont have a lot of time right now.

>>12074665
How can one partical be destroyed,after doesnt get destroyed wtf

I disagree if black holes pulled in light thay should not be black but a massive ball of light the idea that mater can be infinitely compression thair should be an exchange of energy like runing a match on a box or friction or heat I would think a black hole is black because thair is no light thair at all one could imagine if the black hole was pulling light in from both sides some light would escape it pull and a halo of light would be Seen clearly around its edges second if the black hole didn't exchange energy it's size would become infinitely large stars lakes people planet all have a maximum size I do not think we have a good idea what a black hole is perhaps in a few honored years.

>>12072408
it could create a new universe where everything in it happens in the black hole.
we could be living in a black hole right now.

>>12075005
This ai needs work.

>>12068961
There is actually nothing at the "center". The event horizon is all there is. It represents the true nature of the universe: a two dimensional hologram.

The first part of what I said is based in recent science. The second part is just my quack theory. Black holes will over time represent a greater and greater proportion of the universe. They will merge together. And in the end everything will become one big black hole. At this point the universe resets and you get another big bang. (Another phenomenon supposedly connected to a "singularity" that doesn't actually have a singularity.)

I saw a video trying explain theoretical masses of black holes by using our sun as a reference and when the 10x10x10 cube of suns turned into even more cubes I had a mini existential crisis.

>>12075161
Sorry, 1000x1000x1000

>>12068961
No one knows. Extrapolating is bad and since there are no experiments this is not even science. But go ahead and have fun misusing equations.

>>12075173
>nothing is science
okay

>>12075200
Nothing without experimental confirmation is science

>>12075173
I think the problem is that science is as nebulous a non-term as the term "art". You can argue until you are blue in the face to define what this simple word means. What you come away with is just that this word does not describe anything.

>>12075202
you have a simple mind
you repeat the same talking point over and over
but you have no idea what you are talking about

>>12075208
I define science as checking. When you check you are doing science. The ancients did not check, they thought. Even today people worship "thinkers" above "checkers".

>>12075214
I repeat the same point because its the only one needed. I made it simple for simpletons like you.

>>12075216
Well yeah. It takes many checkings before you can purport to have a "theory". But even then, the average person can hold that against you as "just" a theory. As in the cause of evolution vs. intelligent design.

>>12075231
Idgaf what some proverbial rando thinks about anything

>>12068961
Tootsie rolls

>>12068961
matter overlapping matter. so the pressure from gravity is so great matter is broken down into smaller pieces so molecules broken to attoms and then to sub atomic particles but then the sub atomic particles overlap. thats not supposed to be possible. more mass exist in a space than should ever exist in that space and it warps space way more than normally be possible

when it forms after the super nova the sub atomic particles are probably squished a bit over each other. so picture a 3d sphere. a explosion pushes lots of spheres out. but some are pushed in to the center. some spheres overlap but its as small as a piece can be so it cant break. you have hard fixed amounts of distortion of space based on mass within a give volume. you have way more mass than should exist so the distortion is very high as a result

the matter doesnt have a proper name and only exist in that state within a black hole or potentially in some dead stars at small quantities. interlocked atoms are probably more common where the electron field is overlapping but still whole atoms in dead stars

>>12069098
infinities are artificial constructs, similar to gender and race.

>>12075459
the set theorists did not like this comment

>>12074665
>>12069860
This isn't actually true. It's an analogy invented to try and help people visualise how black holes radiate. The actual process by which they lose mass is to do with certain frequency modes of the unruh effect being cut off from the rest of the universe. I don't know why they still use this false analogy - it's not even any simpler or intuitive than the correct explanation

>>12074048
Welcome to modern physics, where our brains cannot even begin to comprehend what is actually going on and we settle down for mathematical models that approximately tell us how stuff behaves

>>12074026
>planck star

>>12068961
>What is at the center?
a very painful but quick death

>>12068961
>What is at the center
The hole part. It's there in the name. First it's black then it's whole.

>>12076441
As you get spaghettified, would the pain signals from below your head even be able to reach your brain? Remember they travel much slower than light

>>12068961

>>12068961
An entire universe. Our universe is currently inside a black hole, and every black hole spawns a new universe. Because the metric gets fucked up on the inside, all the energy coming in gets magnified and so even a small black hole houses a large universe. If you were somehow able to exit our universe, and our parent universe, and their parent universe, and so on, you would never reach the origin universe because the complete universe is fractal in nature and has no universal parent universe.

Brainlet here.
So how do singularities persist over time? What's keeping them from dissipating or some shit like that?
Also, wouldn't they have Planck volume meaning they do have volume after all?

>>12078646
Well singularities are theoretically points of infinite spacetime curvature so I don't believe they would have any volume.

>>12078646
Relativistic singularities are problematic at quantum scales. Without a unification of quantum mechanics and gravity we don't know the answer to these questions

>>12076806
cute

>>12078600
>you would never reach the origin universe
Yes you would. It's not infinit into the past

>>12074214
I don’t trust anyone named Schwarzchild

https://www.quantamagazine.org/possible-detection-of-a-black-hole-so-big-it-should-not-exist-20190828/

what's up with this? isn't there a black hole at the center of each galaxy?

>>12069802
>>12073798
How is it possible to get a nonzero mass to take a volume of zero? Aren't there molecules and such that are taking up space? If so wouldn't there be a limit to how little space the black hole can take?

>>12078954
Black holes are the most efficient way to pack information (see energy, mass) in the universe. The surface area of the event horizon is proportional to the amount of entropy in the black hole. The volume is not zero, it's the volume of the event horizon. Within that event horizon there is a *hypothetical* singularity of infinite density, but as with everything inside the event horizon, is meaningless to us since observing it is physically not possible.

>>12078968
Very interesting. Thanks anon!

>>12078811
uhhh... di.. did you even read that post?
nice double du bs I guess

>>12068961
So I was wondering, since 85% or so of the matter in our Universe is dark matter, does that mean that black holes are mostly dark matter too?

>>12078954
As far as we can tell their gravity is so strong as to overcome all degeneracy pressures

>>12079105
>dark memeter
I'll break it to you anon, it's not real, we just don't have as good of a grasp on gravity at large scales than we want to

>>12078931
*ahem*
Schwarz'''s'''child

unsolved physics there is no such thing as a singularity in real world

>>12074787
Quantum probability

>>12079768
>a wagecuck hand typed this

>>12079769
>a grant whore hand typed this

So if our universe is inside a black hole of another universe, and that black hole is emitting hawking radiation, does that mean our universe will eventually fade away? How does the energy from our universe turn into hawking radiation into the mother universe?

>>12075310

a glitch/error/feature in the matrix.

>>12074026

>star
>at planck

fucking retarded

>>12073928

immensely high IQ post

>>12079773
Dilate

>>12069098
>due to the fact that nothing can escape the event horizon.
Incorrect. Information can escape.

>>12068961
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4NffTr_GMk

black holes dont exist.

>>12079953
>muh electric universe
>muh plasma universe
Shut the fuck up, mouthbreather.

>>12080004
>stop trying to explain things goy!
>the black hole mystery will exist forever so keep wasting your time trying to figure out pure fiction!

>>12080009
>>>/x/

>>12080012
just accept it jewboi, your charade is over

>>12069098
these singularities are why we believe GR is incorrect in extreme cases.

Taking evidence for an incomplete theory to be real phenomena is absolutely bluepilled.

>>12075104
>They will merge together. And in the end everything will become one big black hole.
2 massive objects can be far enough from each other that their distance increases due to metric expansion.
So no. Not gonna happen.

>>12075202
guess how you even get to experiments? You have to extrapolate first before you can confirm or deny.

>>12078683
so you’re still clinging to that? To know what happens in extreme density regions we need a working model of quantum gravity.

>>12070837
Accretion disks always rotate and so do event horizons, whether or not the singularity rotates or not is irrelevant.

>>12080016
>jewboi
Cringe

>>12079868
How can it escape if nothing can move faster than the speed of light?

is a black hole a perfect sphere?

>>12080087
Actually could be true. Although unverifiable.

>>12080086
sorry, for some reason i dont have that information

>>12073799
What's more important are the tidal forces at the event horizon. At some point it would spaghetti you as you got closer.

>>12075168
It's pretty humbling. There are billion solar mass black holes out there with event horizons larger than our solar system.

>>12080087
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr%E2%80%93Newman_metric#Important_surfaces
nope, even with charge removed the event horizon oblates with angular momentum.

daily reminder

>>12080134
Then on what basis can you make that claim?

>>12074665
didn't pair annihilation release energy?
isn't that mean total energy inside event horizon increases?

>>12080240
This is fake u mad a girl took cred? The other guy is gay btw.

cnn.com/cnn/2019/04/12/us/andrew-chael-katie-bouman-black-hole-image-trnd/index.html

>>12080343
It's simply a fact.

>>12080168
the universe is full of wonders

>>12074051
Is this a "thoughts don't exist physically in the brain as patterns while the neurons are firing" kind of argument, or a "Platon was right about everything" kind of argument?

>>12081414
link dead
>This is fake
how so? You can check the logs
>u mad a girl took cred?
not this anon, but it’s sad to see her getting credit solely based on her gender, not any form of merit.
>The other guy is gay btw.
Aren’t you arguing here from a point of equality? What does his preference of where to put his dick have to do with physics or computer science?

>>12072408
>Divide by nothing.
>spooky af

Back to Fortnite.

>>12080016
>t. like the year of desktop linux will slay microsoft
kek

>>12080240
Damn he got screwed lmao

>Conspiracy theorists are abuzz over the revelation that a recent NASA photo was touched up before being released to the public.
>But this is not news, or evidence that the space agency has something to hide. NASA routinely processes raw images to enhance details, or to visualize things the human eye could never see, agency officials have said. Other space agencies, and many astronomers, do the same thing.

>>12068961
It is impossible escape a black hole's event horizon.

The event horizon marks the point where space has been so warped by incredibly powerful gravity to the point that no paths exist out of it. What this means is that no matter what direction you look, you will see the singularity at the center of the black hole. It's in front of you, behind you, above you, below you. Any direction you move will bring you closer to it. If you had a physics-breaking engine that could give you infinite power and infinite energy to gain infinite speed, there's still literally no direction you could point your spacecraft that would lead away from the singularity. It doesn't matter how fast you go. By "timelines," I mean "possible futures." By "light paths" I mean "spacial directions". In this case, the singularity is both an inevitable thing in front of you, and an inevitable thing in your future, and there's no real reason to distinguish between the two concepts. It is practically your destiny.

TL;DR: black holes beyond the event horizon are the ultimate prefect prison because ALL paths inside the event horizon lead to the center of the black hole. You could pull some sci-fi BS and you'd still not escape it.

>>12068961
We don't know...well I don't, I'm not a scientist but..they say they don't know and that's where the rubber meets the road buddy. There's your answer.

>>12068993
Gottem'

>>12068961
a literal hole in the universe

>>12068961
check out fuzzballs

good thread

>>12075018
I suppose if the universe expands and contracts like has been theorised then we would be living in the effect of what is or at least was a black hole, maybe when the universe reaches a certain point it stops expanding and begins to slowly collapse in on itself until it eventually leads to a single singularity which eventually creates another big bang effect the restarts the entire process again?

>>12084703
>t. routinely appreciates IR images

>>12069860
Wouldn't this allow us to easily quantize gravity... Sounds an awful lot like you're telling me gravity is quantized at event horizons, anon...

>>12087417
>gravity is quantized
oh honey, everything is quantized

>>12068993
This is actually correct.

Scientists BTFO FOREVER. HAHA HOW WILL THEIR PAYCHECKS RECOVER!

>>12084709
shutup

>>12070601
Okay, show me the end of the universe then. Since the universe is, in your words, finite, that end must exist. Well?

>>12088203
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD4izuDMUQA

>>12088203
nothing lasts forever

>>12087633
>graviton

ohboyherewegoagain.jpeg

>>12084709
E8

It is possible that the center of a black hole converts a higher dimensional pathing fiber into a 3 dimensional axis path.

Think of collapsing a 2D point such that all directions are locked in 2D.

You'd have to crush the 2D plane onto itself in the 3D dimension.

If the same thing happened in a 3D plane, then a 4th or higher dimensional contact would need to be made there.

If any of the bozos looking into E8 are even remotely correct, then it's very possible the middle of a black hole has a 4D+ pathing available. Whether it genuinely leads to another point in this 3D universe, would be a question still. Could just lead to an empty 3D plane point, ala, a nothing zone of space where no baryonic matter currently exists... but could.