/sci/ - Science & Math

>>11622128
Probably not. That would require a complete destruction of the existing medical paradigm otherwise they will never admit fault, and thus the golem cattle will never hod them to account.

No, but we'll view HRT like Spiro in a similar way.

>>11622128
i once dated a girl who was literally on each of those at some pt in her life. shit was not cash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSKizLRFbTo

>>11622128
>In the future
Unfortunately sanity is destined to lose this war

>>11622128
absolutely. fucking. yes.


99.9% of drugs that affect the brain but don't have thousands of years of empirical testing (like alcohol, tea and coffee) behind them do WAY more harm than good beneath the surface.

>>11622483
>Empirical testing shows that alcohol is garbage for the brain and body

>>11622483
and we have no way of knowing what is in the 0.1% that doesn't cause serious harm in ways we're unable to see.

>>11622487
not on a society level. and below 7 units / week it shows no long term ill effects.
but even if some individuals do degrade their brains and bodies with it, on a society level it's not harmful. you know it from the fact that societes/cultures/religions where drinking alcohol was customary ended up dominating those that banned it.

alcohol is one of those things that's damaging on the surface, but clearly isn't in the grand picture.

>>11622487
not on a society level. and below 7 units / week it shows no long term ill effects.
but even if some individuals do degrade their brains and bodies with it, on a society level it's not harmful. you know it from the fact that societes/cultures/religions where drinking alcohol was customary ended up dominating those that banned it.

alcohol is one of those things that LOOKS damaging on the surface, but clearly isn't damaging in the grand picture.

>>11622501
This argument can be applied to a lot of drugs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for banning alcohol or really any drugs for that matter. But pretending that just because people have used it for thousands of years suddenly makes it good really boils my potatoes. Drugs are drugs, the banning of drugs has probably caused more long term harm then allowing them for the same reason you just listed. Saying that "oh it is better on a society level even though it destroys the body and mind" is the exact argument I could use for benzos or giving everyone cocaine.

>>11622501
>t. antidepressant addicted alcoholic

>>11622128
Absolutely not. Haloperidol is a life sazer for patients.

>>11622509
>I'm not for banning alcohol or really any drugs for that matter
obviously not, you're giving away the vibes of some druggy that isn't willing to consider how we have no idea what the stuff he's taking does to the brain or how it modifies his actions that end up making things worse in long term.


>>11622512
i actually drink about a dozen times / year. and never taken antidepressants.

>>11622509
>I'm not for banning alcohol or really any drugs for that matter
obviously not, you're giving away the vibes of some druggy that isn't willing to consider how we have no idea what the stuff he's taking does to the brain or how it modifies his actions that end up making things worse in long term. and defends his addiction by saying "alcohol does so much more harm than this shit i'm taking! look at this study!!"


>>11622512
i actually drink about a dozen times / year. and never taken antidepressants.

>>11622509
>I'm not for banning alcohol or really any drugs for that matter
obviously not, you're giving away the vibes of some druggy that isn't willing to consider how we have no idea what the stuff he's taking does to the brain or how it modifies his actions that end up making things worse in long term. and defends his addiction by saying "alcohol does so much more harm than this shit i'm taking! look at this study (made by biased, low-iq, drug addicted researchers)!!"


>>11622512
i actually drink about a dozen times / year. and never taken antidepressants.

>>11622533
Considering I'm getting a Ph.d in biochem and biophysics I have probably thought about how drugs affect my brain a lot more then you have. I was also raised by alcoholics and surrounded by them my whole life so I know from personal experience as well as biochemically/physiologically how it messes with your body, mind, and relationships. I don't drink it because I know drugs are tools to modulate our bodies states and alcohol isn't a good tool for me. You project a lot.

>>11622543
thanks for comfirming what i said.

>>11622509
>>11622509
>really boils my potatoes
lol calm down granpappy

>>11622128
I take Lexapro for anxiety and it’s amazing how well it works.

I don’t care what it does to me in long run, I mean I hope it doesn’t fuck me up obviously, but the way it works to remove my crippling anxiety is a life saver.

>>11622128
Yes.

>>11622546
I didn't defend it based on how harmful alcohol is, I pointed out I kept track of how drugs affect me and determined what works and does not work. We have no idea how most of biology works, does that mean people shouldn't try going on diets? Or that they shouldn't do art because we don't know if it is good or bad for them? Or that we shouldn't drink milk? We do what we do because it feels right and works for us. I know I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't take antidepressants, I would probably be in a room empty inside and longing for death still. You are the one going around and judging other people because it doesn't work for you/ you aren't willing to take risks with yourself. Both of which are valid, but pretending you are better for it is sanctimonious in the extreme when you are trying to defend things simply because people have used them for a long time. People used mercury for a long time too, and because cultural histories are strong still do in some places. Doesn't make it right.

>>11622557
It sounded funnier in my head whippersnapper

>>11622708
i love my anxiety

>>11622128
I doubt it, in my experience the issue is overprescribing, I've never heard anyone who genuinely needs them or anyone who's been close to someone who does ever complain, necessary evil and all that
t. schizophrenic

>>11622501
Your lack of historical knowledge smells bad, just like you, alcoholic.

>>11622773
ftr i wouldn't mind if all drugs including alcohol and coffee were banned as well. but they aren't and occasionally it's fine to consume them. time has proven their safety.

but relying on antidepressants to achieve what you want is sign of extreme short sightedness and incredibly weak soul.


>>11622733
c o p e

comparing chemicals that we know modify how you feel and modify the way the brain works to chemicals that modify any other organ is unfanthomably low iq

>>11622501
Alcohol is probably one of the most dangerous drugs legally available considering its abuse is normalized and cherished by society entirely

>>11622128
THEY CLAMP.

C L A M P
L
A
M
P

EVERYTHING IS A TRAP TO CLAMP YOU. EVERYTHING THEY DO IS ANOTHER KIND OF CLAMP. IT'S ALL CLAMPING.

Here, there, everywhere. From birth to grave this place is organized into trying to clamp each other and itself. The ouroboros only exists due to its own retardation more often than not. How stupid do you have to be.

>>11622483
Based and Lindy pilled.

>>11622733
ftr i was like you. i took ritalin for 6 years and wrote software that made me a millionaire.
but if i could go back i'd much rather die homeless than take ritalin again. i cannot explain why, but i know.
you're just ignorant of the cost. the end does not justify the means, the outcome isn't the only thing that matters at all. no two outcomes are ever the same.

and most importantly, there's nothing wrong with lying on a bed longing for death. accepting that state changes you in ways you should change. rather than in ways that make you SEEM to fit in better with society's current demands.

>>11623105
You are literally crying about being a millionaire right now, how out of touch are you?

I don't want to be stuck in bed for three days wasting away and hating myself. I don't want these things so I can choose not to. Being in that state just made me stop eating and refuse to talk to the people I loved or do the things I cared about. You are calling me ignorant in the same breath you profess your own on why. You didn't live with my pain, you didn't deal with it's crushing weight. I've been suicidal since I was 10 as my dad beat the shit out of me and my mom went crazy, relief from that is a blessing. I could use those drugs to get me to a place where I can deal with my suffering and then one day not have to use them anymore. Hell I haven't used my meds in awhile because I'm finally in a stable healthy place.

The difference between us is that I don't think I'm better then the people who are on the start of the journey I have already finished.

>>11623129
>I don't want to be stuck in bed for three days wasting away and hating myself.
>stop eating and refuse to talk to the people I loved or do the things I cared about.

if you can't accept that stage it will bite you back. yeah it's great you're in a great place now, but it won't last. sorry but if you're prone to depression it will always hit you eventually. and the best way to live with it is to accept it. it doesn't matter how high you get, depression WILL get you.
and the thing is, you don't really want to do the things you only do on medication. the meds change what you want, which is the most complex part of consciousness. we have NO IDEA what makes for a better or a worse life. what even is better or worse. taking medication robs you of developing a better feel for what you truly want. which is almost certainly not what you're actually working towards when you're on meds.


>I could use those drugs to get me to a place where I can deal with my suffering and then one day not have to use them anymore. Hell I haven't used my meds in awhile because I'm finally in a stable healthy place.

well, judging you for this is really hypocritical, because i've only been really dealing with this since i could get rid of pretty much all responsibilities.
but from this point, the biggest mistake of my life does seem to be not realizing how important acceptance is much earlier.

retards like you who think mental illness is a meme because you don't suffer from it will always exist I'm sure

>>11622773
ok, only 500 years for coffee, but caffeine (via tea) has been part of human history for thousands of years.

>>11623184
>AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH I NEED MY MEDS

>>11623184
who said mental illness is a meme?
it's that taking medication for your mental problems then trying to lead a "normal" life, is like taking painkillers for a fractured joint and trying to run a marathon.

>>11623184
who said mental illness is a meme?
it's that taking medication for your mental problems then trying to lead a "normal" life is like taking painkillers for a fractured joint and trying to run a marathon.

>>11623189
shut up faggot
>>11623200
should they just kill themselves then? What's your suggestion and don't say yoga or some gay shit

>>11623167
You don't think I don't know this? I've been like this my whole life, the point of drugs is to give space so that you can take care of business and get the space needed to build healthy coping mechanisms. You are projecting your own lack of direction in life onto me and I don't appreciate it. I know exactly what I want and have for a significant portion of my life. I use my medication as a tool to help ensure I don't fuck up my chance to do what it is I want. I think you are really missing how much every single thing in life affects your mind, the food you eat are all types of drugs int hat context. The nice texts you get, the good expensive food you eat, the security for housing, the time you get to spend relaxing. All of those affect your mental state greatly and only by knowing yourself can you know what those effects are and how to work with them, just because you have NO IDEA what makes for a better or worse life for yourself doesn't mean others don't.

You don't know yourself and are blaming that fact on that you were taking medication instead of the lack of personal introspection you practiced throughout your life. I accepted who I was long ago, but part of acceptance is not denying things you need in order to do the important things in life.

If I had just "Accepted" my depression I would have killed myself when I was 17. You say you would rather have died alone and penniless then take the medication back then, but that just reeks of someone who has never actually gone hungry or slept under a bridge. Cognitive continuity is not more important then surviving and I genuinely hope you realize that without having to actually suffer it because no one should.

>>11622128
In light of peptides, yes.

>>11623202
That's why therapy and medication are supposed to be done together.

>>11623206
>shut up faggot
You shut up.

>>11623211
i was also very close to killing myself at 17, and developed a framework for "what i want" from life. some months after i stopped taking meds it completely collapsed and realized it's not at all what's important.

and you know what? i sometimes just put a knife to my chest, drive up to a cliff, or fill out an order form for nembutal. i'm not afraid of my suicidal thoughts now and if i wanted to kill myself i'd do it. but clearly i don't want to. i just want to play with the thought and not accepting those kind of thoughts entirely destroy your chance of becoming a genuine person. accepting the outcome of offing yourself is part of acceptance, and it's almost certainly not what you actually want. it's just something your mind wants you to let it think about.
people who end up killing themselves are almost never genuine. like that anon that killed himself and kept posting was so obviously forcing himself through it because he couldn't accept the pain.

but it's true i never actually got close to homelessness. but i really hope i could still accept it if following my mind wherever it leads and never forcing anything on myself ends me up in that situation.

>>11623220
rude

>>11623242
Unclamp.

>>11623263
what is this meme?

>>11623267
It's my meme.

Many things can be clamped Clamped is a mindset. You need to realize, and in your newfound awareness, find the way to unclamp.

>>11623267
they invaded /sci/ and spam clamp memes. it isn’t complete non sense but they overstate the actually impact of getting clamped. So how a lot of conspiracy are like.

>>11623275
how do I unclamp?

>>11623230
I'm sorry that you put together a poor framework because you didn't spend time to learn how the drugs you were taking affected your mental state. I have. I have stopped meds, changed meds, done different things, etc. and it has stayed consistent because I understood myself enough. Unironically it sounds like you never actually accepted who you are as a person and instead try to accept everything about your life thinking it means you accept yourself. I didn't kill myself with I was 10 because I decided that while I wanted to be dead and find out what it was like, that I would probably never be able to find out what it meant to be alive after I did it. But when I was suffering I didn't want to die, I was just in enough pain that I couldn't see other options. Death is something I'm comfortable with and excited for when it comes. I want it to happen, but I want it to happen in it's own time and not because my brain doesn't like regulating its happy chemicals so I grow impulsive enough to kill myself. Suicide is when the pain of living overcomes the coping mechanisms we have for that pain, in those moments we seek death as an option. Knowing we can die is a freeing thing, it is glorious and gives meaning to every moment. Because you are right, people that try suicide tend to regret it, but when your brain doesn't regulate your impulse control then you try to kill yourself. One day when you are standing on that cliff if your brain might fail its impulse control you will jump and you will instantly regret it. There is nothing wrong with giving yourself more mechanisms to prevent your brain from having its own fuck ups. Accepting your own shortcomings is the hardest part of acceptance.

Obsessing over being your own "Genuine person" ironically denies the ability to actually be a genuine person. The only way to do that is to do it, "trying" simply detaches you from the reality of being yourself in favor of your idea of your "genuine self". I would suggest zen

>>11623296
After you can see the clamp, you can recognize it in all its forms, and come to live apart from it. Otherwise, you will continue to be clamped.

>>11623322
you are just driven by the fear of regret.
and saying "oh the brain is faulty, these and these and these thoughts are just glitches, but these other thoughts, these aren't!" and cherry picking which thought you let happen and which one you don't inevitably leads to ignorance. YOU only accept and reuly analyze 1 side of yourself making it impossible to have an adequate picture of the whole.

i've been literally always doing exactly as i felt like 100% of the time for more than 15 months. i did make MANY mistakes obviously that i regret and contemplate about a lot, but all of these were VERY worthy mistakes i needed to make to develop. i've done a ton of things in my life i clearly shouldn't have. i haven't done a single thing in my life i'd tell myself to not do if i could go back. if nothing else, the experience they provided was always valuable.
and if my emotions, these genuine ones that i let be properly felt all the time, don't stop me from killing myself, then oh well.
sometimes it is better if someone dies.

>>11623322
you are just driven by the fear of regret.
and saying "oh the brain is faulty, these and these and these thoughts are just glitches, but these other thoughts, these aren't!" and cherry picking which thought you let happen and which one you don't inevitably leads to ignorance. YOU only accept and reuly analyze 1 side of yourself making it impossible to have an adequate picture of the whole.

i've been literally always doing exactly as i felt like 100% of the time for more than 15 months. i did make MANY mistakes obviously that i regret and contemplate about a lot, but all of these were VERY worthy mistakes i needed to make to develop. i've done a ton of things in my life i clearly shouldn't have. i haven't done a single thing in my life i'd tell myself to not do in these past 15 months if i could go back. if nothing else, the experience they provided was always valuable. fine, there are a few that i don't have rational explanations for, but i'm sure they have reasons.
and if my emotions, these genuine ones that i let be properly felt all the time, don't stop me from killing myself, then oh well.
sometimes it is better if a person dies.

>>11623322
regret is a good thing btw. you just need to learn to live with it and handle it.
you can only determine where the boundaries are by pushing and eventually doing things that cross them.

>>11623322
i didn't put the framework together on meds btw, i put that together sober. i was just very ignorant at the time, unable to handle life. obviously you can still lead a shitty life if you're not taking meds. it's just practically impossible to lead a genuine one if you're on them.

>>11623365
If you got to know yourself you would realize that yes, the brain has many fuck ups in many places. That's what an optical illusion is and the brain has thousands of those. Your brain isn't some inviolable castle, every time you go to bed you die. The next morning the new you only remembers a fraction of that past conscious experience. I have already done what you did. I had a bunch of friend convince me in undergrad that I didn't need medication or drugs to do fine. It was all just in my head and shit. So I did and I thought I was good for awhile, until I realize I was becoming non-functional and unable to do what I desired in life because of it. I realized I was just reveling in the pain because I thought I was the pain. I was just romanticizing this idealized version of myself that didn't exist because I didn't like relying on things outside myself.

You are romanticizing death right now, thinking that if you just obey your every impulse it is the "real you". The real you doesn't exist. Even in your comment you go back and forth on the things you have done:
"I regret" but also you say you would do it again. Which is the opposite of regret.

Then you talk once more about not having rational ideas of why you don't want to go back and undo them in the past 15 months and I can tell you the rational reason. The reason is because if you let yourself actual regret these things it might break apart the "new you" that you are trying to build.

You aren't accepting yourself, you are romanticizing yourself to the point that if your idea of a "genuine self" leads to an impulsive suicide that you hope you won't regret it. But just like that guy who regretted it during his post you will too though. You will think before, "sometimes it is better if a person dies" then jump and realize you weren't actually being yourself but allowing your feelings to control you like a puppet. You said these things yourself, I am merely pointing out that you don't notice.

>>11623389
>it's just practically impossible to lead a genuine one if you're on them.
My meds have always been herbal, and I have felt this is the case. At a point you constantly drugged state is not an altered manifestation of self, it's a distorted and net diminished one. Narrowed.

I have at least some psyschoactive substance in my system 24/7. Anything to avoid my own reflection. Anything to avoid feeling my own existence in a way that I don't control. The drugs are not necessary for this, but they do facilitate and keep me from simply being a dissociated husk. So great was his fear, deep down.

>>11623376
You keep going back and forth on that. I think you should think about what regret really means.
>>11623389
So you think you have magically proven that people are unable to be themselves while on drugs how? You cling to the idea of your cognitive continuity so hard I can almost see the fractures.

>>11623394
>>11623403
well looks like this was the end of it for me today. i think i have changed you, even if you don't realize it yet. feeling good about this convo, thanks.

>>11623322
>Unironically it sounds like you never actually accepted who you are as a person and instead try to accept everything about your life thinking it means you accept yourself.

this sentence sticks out though. can you elaborate a little bit.
like what things i said made you conclude this.
and how is not suppressing any thought ever not accepting myself.

>>11623441
(it probably sticks out because you got something there)

>>11623322
what even determines who you are?
the things you want? the things you are capable of?
i just realized that both vary at extreme levels, so i still "try to" figure them (myself) out, but not really anymore. mostly just give in to what i want right now and what i'm capable of right now (sometimes both are really surprising still)

>>11622128
Not really, much worse. The psychiatrists will either be executed, or used for lab testing.

>>11623394
>That's what an optical illusion is and the brain has thousands of those.
Only that psychiatrists say it's the lack of those flaws that make you insane. The drugs are meant to make your brain broken, so that you are confused like everyone else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YIPtJlCbIA

>>11623441
Again, I suggest reading up on duality in Hindu traditions and zen Buddhism.

You approached a central concept in removing yourself from suffering through non-attachment in a way that resulted in your attachment to the concept of your "genuine self" becoming intrinsic to your approach. Meaning that every step you try to take forwards will also pull you backwards.

Just giving into your impulses and feelings because you think that is what defines a "genuine self" doesn't actually cultivate anything but an epistemological hedonism. You are trying to "remove the illusions" without realizing the attempt is rejecting that you yourself are an illusion.

You point at a thing, taking drugs, and say "THIS IS NOT ME" and instead point to something else and say "THIS IS ME" without realizing the irony that you are pointing at these things separate to yourself. You are not the person who was on Ritilin because you are you now. You were that person. The one thing you are not is that "genuine self". Accepting that you have flaws, that they pop up, that you do not have to internalize these flaws into your mental construct is how you accept your self as a function of your existence.

It's easy to just say "haha I am me. I do what I feel like and that makes me me." But that isn't the truth. Sometimes you have intrusive thoughts about beating up an old woman or pulling out your dick in public. You are having those feelings, but you are not those feelings. The part of you that chooses not to act on them or to act on them is you.

When I take drugs I am experiencing those drugs and am altered by those drugs, but I am not those drugs. I can recognize that those drugs sensitize or dull me to certain feelings, and based on what I want to do with my senses I take what drugs I will so I have better tools to interact with the things I feel and experience.

>>11623453
Drugs are a tool I find useful to figure out the different facets of myself. They make it obvious that what I feel and am capable of are a function of external experience. By using a drug I give myself a "point of reference" as I know how that drug will alter me. From that point I can then examine how other things are affecting me and what the shape of me is as a function of how those feelings make me react.

Why do I feel upset when the kitchen is dirty while sober but not on something that suppresses anxiety? Oh, because the dirty kitchen gives me anxiety. Where does that anxiety stem from inside of myself? Etc. etc.

The things I feel are a function of who I am, I am not a function of what I feel. You say you get this concept, but you are letting yourself be controlled by what you feel making yourself a function of your feelings. It doesn't lead to a "genuine you" that path, no it leads to a satisfaction of the impulses and nothing more. One day you will run out of money and people that care about you as you satisfy impulse after impulse selfishly (even when you act charitably).

Actually, try watching "The Good Place" I think you would be able to derive a lot out of it.

>>11623510
Expanding on that, you use a drug not only to understand yourself but to modulate yourself. I want to do a thing today but feel poor motivation/ability in this area. By using a drug I can enhance the areas relevant to that activity or experience as needed. I don't magically stop being "you" when I get high.

But that's the real secret. "you" doesn't exist. It never did and that's okay.

>>11623510
>Why do I feel upset when the kitchen is dirty while sober but not on something that suppresses anxiety

from what i wrote you assume that's because you haven't processed your childhood correctly and how your parents' lack of discipline was wrong exactly.
the fact that it's a dirty kitchen that triggers your anxiety DOES stem from the fact that our central nervous systems happen to be vastly built on neural networks.
but that anxiety should come up some way regardless of architectural nuances. you still haven't faced your childhood traumas P R O P E R L Y.

>>11623510
>Why do I feel upset when the kitchen is dirty while sober but not on something that suppresses anxiety

from what you wrote i assume that's because you haven't processed your childhood correctly and how your parents' lack of discipline was wrong exactly.
the fact that it's a dirty kitchen that triggers your anxiety DOES stem from the fact that our central nervous systems happen to be vastly built on neural networks.
but that anxiety should come up some way regardless of architectural nuances. you still haven't faced your childhood traumas P R O P E R L Y.

>>11623527
>"you" doesn't exist. It never did and that's okay.
>>11623489
>The part of you that chooses not to act on them or to act on them is you.

>>11623510
>Why do I feel upset when the kitchen is dirty while sober but not on something that suppresses anxiety

from what you wrote i assume that's because you haven't processed your childhood correctly and how your parents' lack of discipline (that you're probably overcompensating for) was wrong exactly.
the fact that it's a dirty kitchen that triggers your anxiety DOES stem from the fact that our brains happen to be vastly built on neural networks.
but that anxiety should come up some way regardless of architectural nuances. you still haven't faced your childhood traumas P R O P E R L Y.

>>11623527
>"you" doesn't exist. It never did and that's okay.
>>11623489
>The part of you that chooses not to act on them or to act on them is you.

>>11623105

Sooo what sort/s of software should one get good at developing in order to become a millionaire? Asking for a friend......

>>11624604
crypto. it doesn't hurt if you publish your service before the 2017 bullmarket.

>>11623489
>You point at a thing, taking drugs, and say "THIS IS NOT ME" and instead point to something else and say "THIS IS ME"
that's entirely your interpretation btw.
i never made the distinction "me" and "not me".

whatever thought comes to your mind, it comes from a part of your brain, that, by that interpretation, isn't "you" (not anymore than, say, your pancreas is you).
you're only willing to consider thoughts that either make you feel positive, or have a simple (~obvious, straightforward) purpose.
but the brain is incredibly complex and the most important thoughts and emotions have incredibly complex purposes, not ones you can consciously understand.
when you start cherry picking your emotions, you pass all the ones that are both complex and hard to process as glitches, "illusions", and provide no help for parts of your brain that "isn't you" to properly process them when it clearly needs the part that is "you" to do so.
your childhood trauma still causes anxiety because your brain can see they aren't processed correctly. it can only determine that much on its own. in order to actually derive the correct conclusions and change adequately, it needs your help, which you're denying from it.

>>11624581
It's a point that is hard to describe without some intense delving into philosophical texts on the definition of the self, meaning the language I'm using here is a little inadequate. Otherwise it would make what I say sound like nonsense to most people.

>>11625117
The emotions felt are valid, but my responses to them are not. That is the core idea that is being missed here, all thoughts, emotions, and conceptions of self are illusions created to satisfy an ego. I am not me because I feel, I am me because I choose. I don't deny my emotions, I do choose how I react to my emotions.

Your thesis against drugs is that it alters your consciousness in ways that you don't understand and therefore is negative because you don't think altering your experience is okay. The historical argument falls apart when it comes to using a computer or watching TV both of which are not tested by your description. But why is it that you think altering your experience is not okay? Every time you eat sugar, every time you hold your breath, every time you do almost anything it alters your experience and internal feelings. This is what tells me you haven't actually accepted your own mortality in your shell, the concept you seek an absolute for is mutable. You alter consciousness to the point that philosophically you die every night and awake every day a new person, but ignore that because it is necessary. You don't need to take drugs so you are allowed to fear the possible ego death that arises from the problem of "my altered state has different desires then my basal state, does that mean I am neither?"

The point I was making there is I can use drugs as a method to parse complex emotions better by running controls. But while we are on the subject of getting help, do you see a psychiatrist? Do you have close friends and family that you regularly talk about your emotional and mental state with? Do you listen to them or just deny what they say off hand as your impulses dictate?

>>11623167
>"whatever good you gained won't last."
>"depression WILL get you."
You say you've accepted yourself, but can you accept that these are just beliefs?

>>11624581
>>11625208
Let's clear up some confusion.
There's the finite/individual/relative self, the self most people think they are. (you) with a lower case "y".
Then there's the infinite/collective/absolute self, the totality of existence. (You) with an upper case "Y".
Lower case (you) is a small part of upper case (You), and you can access (You) by recognizing everything in your experience as being part of You.
Modern science insists that (you) are your body, thoughts, and emotions and that's all. This is an insistence for which there is no proof. Where is the line? Why am I my body? Because I can feel, see, and move it? I can see my body, but I can also see many other things. I can feel my body, but I can also feel many other things. So where do we draw the line?

The answer is that while in the biggest sense, You are technically everything within your consciousness, we lack the awareness to experience this directly. The result is that we walk around life with a truncated/narrow perception of what we actually are, and because of that, we are in a constant process of figuring out who/what we are. What are we? The absolute answer is that (You) are everything. The relative/finite/individual answer is that (you) are whatever you decide you are.

The more of yourself you can accept that you are, the more access you will have to (You), which basically raises your power level. But just because you can accept certain parts of yourself and your experience doesn't mean you should do nothing to change them. For the individual (you), emotions carry information which we can use to inform how we should act. Many people don't let themselves feel those emotions, so they never learn how to let the emotions inform their actions. Ignore your emotions at your own peril, it might turn you into an edgy faggot. Speaking from experience.

>>11625448
not what i said at all. the good you gained lasts. you just won't always be happy because of it. depression is a way of processing thoughts. if your mind works this way, you're best off accepting it and accepting that on matter what you do it will be back. happy times will always come as well. but don't run away from depression and you shouldn't need to wallow in the illusion that you'll just get rid of it some time.

>>11625448
not what i said at all. the good you gained lasts. you just won't always be happy because of it. depression is a way of processing thoughts. if your mind works this way, you're best off accepting it and accepting that no matter what you do it will be back. happy times will always come as well. but don't run away from depression and you shouldn't need to wallow in the illusion that you'll get rid of it for good.

>>11625462
If this is what you choose to believe, then I won't waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.

>>11625468
>If this is what you choose to believe, then I won't waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.

(am i retarded? i appear to have forgotten how four chins works)

What's wrong with antipsychotics? That shit works. Even if they fry your brains (do they?), the alternative is having schizos institutionalized and doped out of their minds. Heck you could even go old school and bring back cold showers, strait jackets and ex-con orderlies with a penchant for rape-beatings.

Not saying there isn't any room for misuse, but we're talking about a field that dishes out extended-release meth like candy. Oh and benzos. Benzos are still a thing. Enough said.

No and anti-psychotics have a ton of legitimate uses outside of psychotic illnesses, abilify for instance is a common adjunct for antidepressants. Unsurprisingly nobody in this thread knows what they're talking about

>>11625468
>dude just be yourself
Neurotransmitter imbalances aren't a "way of processing thoughts" it's a completely measurable imbalance. Is anyone in this thread not making shit up on the spot?

>>11625569
See:
>>11625610

Benzos are extremely useful and as someone with ptsd it's the only way I can get my brain to shut up, even then I don't take it daily but people who never used these/were irresponsible never miss up an opportunity to tell everyone how drug bad. I've done hundreds of hours of psychopharmacology research and the blatant bullshit in this thread is legitimately pissing me off

>>11625478
>>11625482
happiness is a guide. a tool. NOT a goal.
you can't seriously believe that the meaning of existence is being the most happy for the longest time possible. makes 0 sense.


>>11625610
it's a symptom, not a cause. naturally when you're depressed your brain has different neurotransmitter levels than when you're not.

>>11625610
, an architectural issue. and you can fix the way you feel by abusing the architecture of your brain and altering neurotransmitter levels, but

>>11623202

>>11625478
>>11625482
happiness is a guide. a tool. NOT a goal.
you can't seriously believe that the meaning of existence is being the most happy for the longest time possible. makes 0 sense.


>>11625610
it's a symptom, not a cause. naturally when you're depressed your brain has different neurotransmitter levels than when you're not. a nature of the architecture of your brain. and you can "fix" the way you feel by abusing the specifics of this architecture and altering neurotransmitter levels, but

>>11623202

>>11625620
The imbalance causes the symptoms not the other way around
>>11625629
>abusing
What does this even mean bruh

Speaking of, brain chemistry changes throughout the day and these medications are both for symptom alleviation and to correct the imbalance, it's not something you can will yourself out of contrary to what idiots who have never suffered think

There's also morons eschewing medication out of principle but that's another matter

>>11625640
>The imbalance causes the symptoms not the other way around
weak man's cope.

>>11625639
>t. Doctor Anon
The fact you're already generalizing treatments for mental illnesses means you shouldn't be listened to

>>11625640
>The imbalance causes the symptoms not the other way around
coward's cope.

>>11625569
Just let the schizos exist, they're harmless

>>11625668
>dude just let people suffer and invariably ruin other peoples lives

>>11625617
>I need something to make my brain shut up

Then it's a matter of picking your poison. There's nothing you could take that wouldn't cause profound and long-lasting effects to your neurobiology. Homeostasis is a bitch.
Druggie bullshit aside, chronic use of benzos at clinical dosages will fuck you up period.
They should be treated with the same reverence as opioids (or barbiturates for that matter) yet to most GPs they might as well be flintstone gummies.
Shrinks seemed to get a grip after the mid '90s benzo backlash/moral panic but looks like they're at it again.

Ackchyually, if you take steps to minimize the risks of atherosclerosis, slamming morphine is way more benign than using benzos. Plenty of junkie docs have had long fulfilling lives with only some minor hypogonadism to show for.

I think both the faggots arguing in this thread could do with some/additional medication.

I actually do agree that they're a crutch and you wont deal with the underlying issue at hand taking medication, you will always feel the symptoms come back when you stop because you didn't deal with the issues.

For instance. I am depressed/fucked in the head someway so take medication, i feel better. I stop taking it and feel worse, the fact that i feel worse is evidence that i should be on this medication and that it is for the best. To me this appears to be the opposite case, you've just demonstrated the counterpoint to your claims that it helps you reconfigure a healthy mindset, it has dulled you into a positive mindset, while returning to your previous mindset once these drugs are removed.

TLDR if you take these medications you won't confront your problems you're running from them. It's the same as if you took heroin to run from the problem, but a chemically optimised heroin that try's to isolate the feelings in question.

For instance my useless anecdote is that i felt very depressed as a young man. I now feel quite alright most of the time as i addressed and came to terms with the underlying issues relating to isolation, alienation and uncertainty about who i am and what i want in the world.

PS also to the arguing faggots neither of you should talk about Buddhism or anything remotely spiritual as you feel so strongly the need to be correct in a Taiwanese hentai site

I feel like a lot of this arguing is getting to general. The topic was specifically about anti-psychotics and not anxiety/depression which are usually caused by environmental factors. Like, what about people who have naturally unstable moods and need medication to keep themselves from wildly swinging from one extreme to another? I'd argue that's a good case for medication not necessarily being used as a crutch but more vital to achieve a proper balance.

>>11625984
Why must medication be the solution? Usually there is causes for certain behaviors that aren't "chemical imbalances"

>>11625454
underrated

>>11625454
based

>>11625816
Or, just hear me out, people can work on problems while on drugs to build healthy coping mechanisms so they can stop taking drugs. That's literally psychiatry 101 numbnuts

>>11626117
nobody knows how thoughts exactly form anon. if you modify the natural working mechanism of your brain the same thoughts just won't come up to you. obviously your mindset is entirely different when you're suffering than when you're happy. there are issues that can only be processed while you are going through literal hell. if you deny that from yourself via medication, you miss out a lot of what you were supposed to go through in this life.


>>11625816
>take medication, i feel better. I stop taking it and feel worse, the fact that i feel worse is evidence that i should be on this medication

are u fucking srs

>>11625208
>using a computer or watching TV both of which are not tested by your description
they do not modify the working mechanism of the brain. they are just experiences, anon.

>Every time you eat sugar, every time you hold your breath, every time you do almost anything it alters your experience and internal feelings
your ancestors, going back through thousands or likely hundreds of thousands of generations have been exposed to those alterations. those are alteration a human being is meant to have at their disposal. fooling the brain by ingesting chemicals first synthetized in the 20th century isn't.

>>11623403
>you should think about what regret really means.
everything in the real world has more than one side to it. it happens all the time that the best choice you can possibly make in a situation makes you do something that'll be regrettable from some view. especially true when you're first experiencing something really significant. keeping to your old ways will prevent you making the mistakes that people new to the matter inevitably must make ("i shouldn't have done it this way, i should have done it this other way!"), but letting that feel of regret prevent you from experimenting with new things, or denying that feel of regret and preventing yourself from being able to get really better at the subject, are very much the wrong thing to do.
there are situations when regretting is the optimal mood to have for a person. it's not a fucking accident we have this state of mind. all emotions are important part of being human, not just the positive ones.

>>11623403
>you should think about what regret really means.
everything in the real world has more than one side to it. it happens all the time that the best choice you can possibly make in a situation makes you do something that'll be regrettable from some view. especially true when you're first experiencing something really significant. keeping to your old ways will prevent you making the mistakes that people new to the matter inevitably must make ("i shouldn't have done it this way, i should have done it this other way!"), but letting that fear of regret prevent you from experimenting with new things, or denying that regret ("i acted perfectly!") and preventing yourself from learning from your mistakes, are both very much the wrong thing to do.

there are situations when regretting something is the optimal mood to have for a person. it's not a fucking accident we have this state of mind. all emotions are important part of being human, not just the positive ones.

>>11623403
>you should think about what regret really means.
everything in the real world has more than one side to it. it happens all the time that the best choice you can realistically make in a situation makes you do something that'll be regrettable from some view. especially true when you're first experiencing something really significant. keeping to your old ways will prevent you making the mistakes that people new to the matter inevitably must make ("i shouldn't have done it this way, i should have done it this other way!"), but letting that fear of regret prevent you from experimenting with new things, or denying that regret ("i acted perfectly!") and preventing yourself from learning from your mistakes, are both very much the wrong thing to do.

there are situations when regretting something is the optimal mood to have for a person. it's not a fucking accident we have this state of mind. all emotions are important part of being human, not just the positive ones.

>>11626471
>they do not modify the working mechanism of the brain. they are just experiences, anon.

Experiences can change you just as much as any chemical you put in your body. Don't tell me that living through a mass shooting or close relative's death doesn't permanently change you. All life is change. The information you take in via your senses is just as important as food or drug intake. Everything changes you.

>>11622487
this depends on your perception angle, most "drugs" kill you if the knock you out alcohol did this very rar.

>>11622128

or rather as daily bread

>>11627178
>Experiences can change you just as much as any chemical you put in your body

as much? yes. the same way? big fat NO.
balanced, mentally healthy people recover after most traumatic events. might take months but they do. it's the people with little self awareness who were going to collapse anyways who go full crazy afterwards.

obviously there's a limit to everyone to how much they can handle, but meds are still extremely rarely the answer.

processing traumatic events properly does make you look weak/unproductive/whatever on the outside but on the inside you change. taking meds results, pretty much invariably, you not processing them properly. you cannot process traumatic thoughts when you're seeing the world through rose colored glasses. you need to have a traumatic mindset for that. you need to re-live the events many-many times in your head to give your mind a chance of arriving to the proper conclusions.

>>11627178
>Experiences can change you just as much as any chemical you put in your body

as much? yes. the same way? big fat NO.
balanced, mentally healthy people recover after most traumatic events. might take months but they do. it's the people with little self awareness who were going to collapse anyways who go full crazy afterwards.

obviously there's a limit to everyone to how much they can handle, but meds are still extremely rarely the answer.

processing traumatic events properly does make you look weak/unproductive/whatever on the outside but on the inside you change. taking meds results, pretty much invariably, you not processing them properly. you cannot process traumatic thoughts when you're seeing the world through rose colored glasses. you need to have a traumatic mindset for that. you need to re-live the events many-many times in your head, and see things in their original light, to give your mind a chance of arriving to the proper conclusions.

>Come into this thread expecting clamper freakout
>Thread is full of clampposts
nice

>>11627397
You sound like someone who has never actually had any real difficulties in life. Repeatedly cycling a traumatic experience inside of someones mind can inflict long term brain damage as does untreated depression. But yeah, you are right taking antidepressants for a couple months while seeing a psychotherapist is much worse for you then festering in trauma.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/482848

>>11622501
>on a society level its not harmful

Gotta disagree with you there. Too many people are unable to enjoy it to an extent where it doesn't impair their health/ability to function. I'm not just talking about brown paper bag homeless guys in parking lots, alcohol has a net negative effect on waaaaaaay more people than just them IMO.

>>11622128
I wouldn't go that far. But I would see it used more sparingly.
These drugs helped stabilize me when things were bad. But then I used that time to get better using other methods till the drugs weren't needed.
I like to think I could have done it without the drugs if I had more support. I still recognized how they stabilized me and that could be a useful tool in some limited cases.
So we keep them as tool, but stop handing them out like candy every time someone acts a little different.

>>11627433
yes the brain shrinks in depressive episodes. but shrinkage doesn't equal damage.
the brain could be tearing up old connections that are either no longer needed / deemed to be source of harmful behavior, OR the part of brain that's normally responsible for normal behavior that needs the considerable brain power normally output through the disappearing matter is too busy working on the major change the radical event(s) must trigger in your brain.

there's evidence brain volume returns to normal after the depressive episode. the missing volume could be built back up to be much different than it was earlier.

>>11627433
yes the brain shrinks in depressive episodes. but shrinkage doesn't equal damage.
the brain could be tearing up old connections that are either no longer needed / deemed to be source of harmful behavior, OR the part of brain that's responsible for managing the disappearing matter and (used for behavior non-depressed people normally do) is too busy working on the major change the radical event(s) must trigger in your brain. or a million other rational reasons.

are u seriously saying that saying "trauma reduces brain voluma, therefore the human brain is not meant to acknowledge trauma! we need to drug it away!" doesn't sound incredibly stupid to you? do you not agree that it could be used to sum up what you said and what a lot of psychiatrists are arguing for?

there's evidence brain volume returns to normal after the depressive episode. the missing volume could be built back up to be much different than it was earlier.

>>11627433
yes the brain shrinks in depressive episodes. but shrinkage doesn't equal damage.
the brain could be tearing up old connections that are either no longer needed / deemed to be source of harmful behavior, OR the part of brain that's responsible for managing the disappearing matter and (used for behavior non-depressed people normally do) is too busy working on the major change the radical event(s) must trigger in your brain. or a million other rational reasons.

saying "trauma reduces brain volume, therefore the human brain is not meant to acknowledge trauma! we need to drug it away!" doesn't sound incredibly stupid to you? do you not agree that it could be used to sum up what you said (and what a lot of psychiatrists are arguing for)?

there's evidence brain volume returns to normal after the depressive episode. the missing volume could be built back up to be much different than it was earlier.

>>11622128
Probably not as severe. I imagine they'll view current meds as being a blunt instrument to resolve psychological issues that were too readily prescribed.

>>11624661

Crypto-currencies, or cryptography/cybersec in general?

>>11628825
>oh, the great '17 bullrun of cryptography/cybersec

>>11623322
>>11623394
>>11625117
>>11625454

So what texts of the Hindu and Buddhists traditions should I start with to obtain such an understanding of emotions and direction as yours? Also, are you the millionaire softdev anon or are you arguing with him?

>>11622128
I already see it that way.
>patient
There's something like permanent braindamage inflicted on your brain, the access to memories, the imagination, everything is ruined.

I didn't even had diagnosis before they got me on antispsychotics.

Actually... When people around you want you to have life really bad, they make you being on antipsychotics, that's what I think now.

I sleep like 16 hours a day, and cannot really do work without stimulants, on this "medication".
Cholirgenic rebound would give me vivid hallucinations of something I don't really want to percieve.

Reading about the fact, that your brain is shrinking on meds, and you will be given meds basically forever, is really unpleasant life experience, nobody wants to live, and nobody really deserves, and is helping nobody but pharmaceutical companies and their hired psychiatrist to distribute their poision, so they can keep autists forever in autistic mode.

Maybe there was no autism in population until we started treating things like childhood psychosis with this sort of medication.

>>11622128
Meth can bring you up to not being death, like antidepressives can, but it doesn't work for long and you probably will have killed all entertainment anyway.

>>11626456
i used present tense thinking to showcase the pill poppers mindset, could be clearer but i think you have poor contextual understanding still

>>11626117
i don't think they do though, almost all the people i have encountered take these pills to stop the symptoms and never adress the underlying issues. If you take this pill that takes away the problem how can you fix the problem.

It's like you're a fat cunt that cant stop eating so you start slamming metabolism boosters. Oh wow im cured, thankfully not i won't have to work on my diet.

>>11629463
>that your brain is shrinking on meds
Don't worry, there's a pill for that too.

>>11629521
of course you do. the pathetic drug addict part of you is trying its best to find reasons not to listen to sensible people's advice since it would mean you need to put down drugs and face your mental issues like a man

>>11629531
Yes, but new neurons lack serotogenic receptors expression, therefore whole synaptic thing is weakened to a point it cannot longer rapidly adapt to enviroment. ( It never been good with me, those adaptations, but now it's even worse )

Serotonin is large part required for stuff like imagination, without imagination todays, you can get lost on the street, because ...

I can say it more like this: It doesn't get just illusions wiped out, but more any abstract concepts you had in head.

I was before some loop that atleast could rewrite some math equation. Nowadays I dont even seem to perform anything better than it. Anywhere.

>>11622128
Yep. As soon as we understand the brain properly and have the means of interfering with it precisely all of current psychiatric medicine will be seen as barbaric cavemen shit

>>11629564
How can we understand it properly if everybody who's into it is giveng some brain shrinkage stuff if he feels sad for a moment.

>>11626117
>That's literally psychiatry 101
Sadly a lot of doctors did not take that class it seems.
>friend goes to doctor to ask about depression
>gets prescribed a handful of antidepressants immediately
>no follow up appointment, no referral to an actual psych
>nothing checking in, she ends up never filling the script
I'm pretty sure if she did take them and ended up wanting to stay on them she'd have to get the prescription somewhere else, but drugs can just be handed out with no real plan to use them to help build someone back up. And you can always say "that's just a shitty doctor", but most people probably see shitty doctors.

>>11629624
Because those shotgun methods that does more harm than good is what we can do currently. We still don't have the technology to deal more precisely with it, but we will get around it eventually, maybe when we get serious about machine brain interfaces or nanorobotics.

>>11627397
>balanced, mentally healthy people recover after most traumatic events. might take months but they do.

Drugs have a half life, as well. Time heals most wounds, chemical or psychological.