/sci/ - Science & Math

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>>10778604
>if we set one of the variables in the Drake Equation to zero, the paradox disappears!
All of these "solutions" are of this form.

>>10778604
>Why do you people keep bring up the Fermi paradox?

Because we seem to be all alone and we can not figure out why.
Are we truly the ONLY ones in the universe?
Are we the first?

Where is everyone?

>>10778658
we don't have enough data points to properly speculate!

>>10778658
Why the fuck would you think we’re alone? You expect a flying saucer to just land in Tunisia one day, roll out a red carpet, and thirty eight-foot tall crabs to walk out carrying railguns?

>>10778651
You don’t need to set any to zero. All we know is that we don’t live in Star Trek.

>>10778698
How do you know. Maybe we're the retards from that retard planet. You know the ones who kidnapped Geordi.

>>10778701
Maybe it is that lively and the ones nearby just aren’t producing discernible signals. Our own radio signals are in decline because our communication methods have been changing dramatically and there’s no guarantee they’d be discernable as more than space garbage a hundred light years away

>>10778604
>the Fermi paradox
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

>>10778746
Yes it is. It is not proof of absence.

We should see them by now, Fermi paradox is a paradox for a reason.

>>10778752
>Fermi paradox is a paradox for a reason.
Calling something a paradox doesn't make it a paradox (e.g. Zeno, Russell, Fermi)

>>10778746
AbSEnCe oF EviDENce iS nOt EviDeNcE Of AbSenCe
kys

>>10778752
>We should see them by now

Why should we see them by now, retard? Why should we EVER encounter evidence of a species on the opposite side of the galactic plane? Why should we EVER encounter evidence of a species in Andromeda or the Virgo Cluster, or even a hundred of them?

Prove we don’t see them, anyway.

>>10778754
>(e.g. Zeno, Russell, Fermi)
All of those are paradoxes you retard.

>>10778763
Fermi paradox is not a paradox unless you make shit up about the variables.

>>10778762
Because life spreads and communicates and if there were other species in this galaxy, they had more than enough time to spread everywhere. Or to beam laser messages at every habitable planet in the galaxy.

Now of course you will respond with bullshit about how not every species has to spread over the galaxy or desire to communicate, as humans do. However this is irrelevant. It only takes a subgroup of one species out of many, and the paradox is valid.

>>10778767
>if there were other species in this galaxy, they had more than enough time to spread everywhere. Or to beam laser messages at every habitable planet in the galaxy.
Kind of like humans, oh wait.

>>10778764
It is a paradox because for most natural choices of the variables, assuming intelligent life is not exceedingly rare in the universe, we should have seen them by now.

The galaxy is far older than it is large.

>>10778771
Yes, like humans. Humans will either go extinct or spread all over local galaxy group, in what is a cosmic instant. There is no in-between.

>>10778758
>AbSEnCe oF EviDENce iS nOt EviDeNcE Of AbSenCe
>>10778772
>for most natural choices of the variables
>>10778773
>in what is a cosmic instant
Did I walk into reddit by mistake

>>10778767
>Because life spreads and communicates and if there were other species in this galaxy, they had more than enough time to spread everywhere.

You ACTUALLY think that interstellar colonization is legitimately possible? Transporting things that need air and food in a spaceship for tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years to reach other solar systems that are almost certainly NOT habitable, and somehow just magically decelerating so they can actually stop there? And do what? Mine dead planetoids? Maybe they DID they do that, and they’re right next door in Alpha Centauri. How the fuck would we know?

>Or to beam laser messages at every habitable planet in the galaxy.

They did! It got here in the Cretaceous period and no one fucking noticed. Now what? Your tiny brain ignores the fact that for over three billion years of Eath’s history, no civilization existed here. Maybe there’s only a hundred planets that have biospheres in the entire galaxy, and only one developed a civilization. How the fuck do you know the variable of how likely it is for a planet to develop a civilization? You don’t! You’re bullshiting to occupy yourself with a nonexistent quandary.

>>10778772
>Natural choices of the variables

They don’t have any choices because we have literally 0 data on them. That’s it. That’s all we know. Maybe there’s only one planet with life per 1 quadrillion stars. We don’t fucking know.

I think it's something like pic related. We're looking for the signals we are capable of making and which make sense to us, but what means of communication does a lifeform 10,000 times as advanced as us use? How can we hope to speculate?

Suppose a lifeform has a limitless lifespan and infinite patience. The idea of remote communication might seem pointless to such a being, as it "only" takes a few dozen thousand years to travel back to their collective. Why send a message when you can go home and say it in person?

>>10778796
>You ACTUALLY think that interstellar colonization is legitimately possible

Of course. There is no technical showstopper, it is merely a matter of engineering rather than science.

>Transporting things that need air and food in a spaceship for tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years

If there are aliens out there, then their civilizations are billions of years old.

>maybe they DID they do that, and they’re right next door in Alpha Centauri. How the fuck would we know?

If they are in Alpha Centauri, then they are here, too. There is no magical wall around our system.

>They did! It got here in the Cretaceous period and no one fucking noticed.

There is no reason why they would do it only once. Just beam a message at every habitable planet in the galaxy, one after another, and then repeat the process.

>Maybe there’s only a hundred planets that have biospheres in the entire galaxy, and only one developed a civilization.

Maybe. Intelligent life being very rare is one of the most straightforward explanations for the paradox.

>>10778604
>Why do you people keep bring up the Fermi paradox?
I don't know, but you just did literally that. Why did you do it? Something tells me that you actually enjoy some aspect of the conversation, or this thread wouldn't exist.

>>10778814
>Of course. There is no technical showstopper, it is merely a matter of engineering rather than science

Okay, show me the schematics for an interstellar colonization ship since you think the engineering challenge is surmountable.

>If there are aliens out there, then their civilizations are billions of years old.

You don’t know that, and that’s irrelevant. Earth has less than a billion years left of habitability. Maybe they’re dead now, because their star cooked them.

>If they are in Alpha Centauri, then they are here, too.

Non sequitor, and maybe they are. How do you know they’re not? If you’re granting these imaginary aliens the nonsensical ability to travel to other solar systems, then they can hide from some monkeys. Maybe they’re flying around in little tic-tacs annoying United States aircraft carriers....

>There is no magical wall around our system.

Could be a legal one. We don’t annoy the Sentinelese for a reason.

>There is no reason why they would do it only once. Just beam a message at every habitable planet in the galaxy, one after another, and then repeat the process.

-Somehow use impossible magic to know where all habitable planets are even if they’re on the other side of the galactic plane
-Have the same idea of what habitable means we do
-Shoot lasers that will almost certainly miss, since it’s literally impossible to be that accurate.
-Do it every million years to account for evolutionary timescales
-No one responds or notices

Wow

>Maybe. Intelligent life being very rare is one of the most straightforward explanations for the paradox.

THERE IS NO PARADOX YOU MONG. THE VARIABLES ARE ALL UNKNOWN

>>10778843
>We don’t annoy the Sentinelese for a reason.
Some of us do, and there is no place on the planet where obvious evidence of our civilization is not visible. Same would likely apply to a colonized galaxy.

>>10778843
>Okay, show me the schematics for an interstellar colonization ship

Make it big enough is the schematic. Once it is big enough to be self-sustaining, it can go on for thousands of years. You can also try to hop from one asteroid to the other, and in this way diffuse throughout the galaxy slowly, but still fast enough to colonize it in entirety countless times over.

>>10778852
You think small. Use a moon as a interstellar spacecraft.

>>10778846
>Some of us do

Yeah so we might expect the occasional flyover from some alien dumbass, which would conform with alleged sightings.

>Same would likely apply to a colonized galaxy.

Literally no way to tell without using spectroscopy.

>>10778843
>Somehow use impossible magic to know where all habitable planets are

put a rather small (several kilometers) telescope at the gravitational lens of a Sun, and you can directly image every habitable planet in the galaxy, sharp enough to draw a map.

They know Earth is here and is covered with vegetation and oxygen breathing life.

>>10778852
>Make it big enough is the schematic.

The Zorguloplops spend fifteen quadrillion Tepibucks on an interstellar colonization ship and filled it with a million Zorguloplops. It hit a piece of dust and exploded. Never again did the budget for such a project materialize.

>Once it is big enough to be self-sustaining, it can go on for thousands of years.

Okay so violate the conservation of energy. Gotcha

>but still fast enough to colonize it in entirety countless times over

Why? There is literally no reason to colonize space at all let alone the entire galaxy. At best, you’d move shop every few billion years when the local star dies, but you could just live around a red dwarf and be good for trillions of years.

>>10778855
>Perform more impossible engineering feats lol

>put a rather small (several kilometers) telescope at the gravitational lens of a Sun, and you can directly image every habitable planet in the galaxy, sharp enough to draw a map.

Sounds like nonsense. Prove such an idea is remotely possible.

>>10778857
>Why? There is literally no reason to colonize space at all let alone the entire galaxy

The reason is to spread and multiply, it is what life does.

More generally, it is possible, and hence it will happen at least sometimes. If for nothing else, then out of sheer boredom.

Still enough to colonize the entire galaxy by now.

>>10778859
>Prove such an idea is remotely possible.

Does not violate any laws of physics and is basically ISS on steroids, with only a difference in scale.

You prove it is impossible.

>>10778862
I'm pretty sure he can't accept anything being possible unless it already exists. He would have been the sort to cluck his tongue and chuckle knowingly at the futile efforts of those trying to build a heavier-than-air flying machine. Ha, what nonsense.

Upon seeing one, he would have remarked what a clumsy thing it was, one with no foreseeable use.

>>10778861
>The reason is to spread and multiply, it is what life does.

No it is not. Our population growth has halted in the developed world, and birthrates are dropping globally. If our population ever becomes stable or even declines, we have NO REASON WHATSOEVER to go anywhere else to obey some nonexistent urge to “spread and multiply”.

>More generally, it is possible, and hence it will happen at least sometimes.

You haven’t shown it’s possible at all. I’m still waiting on that schematic.

>If for nothing else, then out of sheer boredom.

A vastly superior solution to boredom would be a VR world from which they never leave.

>Still enough to colonize the entire galaxy by now.

Nope. There is no evidence it’s even possible to colonize another planet.

>>10778862
>Does not violate any laws of physics and is basically ISS on steroids, with only a difference in scale.

Prove it.

Why do you think there’s a Fermi Paradox when ZERO of the variables have a known value? Stop talking about it. Maybe there’s no aliens in the entire observable universe. It’s a fucking stupid topic.

>>10778868
>Dur other hypothetical things were possible so this hypothetical thing is possible too

I’d love to see someone build a huge space telescope and cry after it gets blown up by a pebble hitting it.

>>10778876
Why would you love to see that?

>>10778881
Because he's miserable, and misery loves company.

>>10778881
It’d demonstrate how retarded the idea is and make you stop rambling about the abilities of imaginary fake aliens

>>10778882
Nope.

>>10778859
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/using-the-sun-as-a-cosmic-telescope/
It sounds retarded but it makes sense. Apparently graviational lensing doesn't work the way you expect, and the focus isn't a single point like with a normal lens, but an entire line stretching away from the sun. Anyway you'd still need to use a lot of computer power to reconstruct the distorted image of the target planet but in principle all the visual information would be there.

>>10778872
>Stop talking about it.
Keep talking about it? Alright, well there's this great analogy explaing the galaxy's apparent silence in the book The Killing Star, which is sitting on my shelf right now. It reads:

"Imagine yourself taking a stroll through Manhattan, somewhere north of 68th street, deep inside Central Park, late at night. It would be nice to meet someone friendly, but you know that the park is dangerous at night. That’s when the monsters come out. There’s always a strong undercurrent of drug dealings, muggings, and occasional homicides.

It is not easy to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys. They dress alike, and the weapons are concealed. The only difference is intent, and you can’t read minds.

Stay in the dark long enough and you may hear an occasional distance shriek or blunder across a body.

How do you survive the night? The last thing you want to do is shout, “I’m here!” The next to last thing you want to do is reply to someone who shouts, “I’m a friend!”

What you would like to do is find a policeman, or get out of the park. But you don’t want to make noise or move towards a light where you might be spotted, and it is difficult to find either a policeman or your way out without making yourself known. Your safest option is to hunker down and wait for daylight, then safely walk out.

There are, of course, a few obvious differences between Central Park and the universe.

There is no policeman.

There is no way out.

And night never ends."

>>10778754
>>10778764
Thank you, based anon!

>>10778882
Dude sounds miserable as fuck. Miserable guy: I'm legit not trying to pick on you or tease you, do you have friends and/or some social support? These toxic replies you're posting, they don't reflect a guy with a healthy mental state. You deserve respect and support in your life. Are you getting it?

>>10778893
That’s silly. We’re not trying to be quiet. We’re beaming shit into space just to attract attention. Doesn’t mean anyone will want to answer, but they might.

>>10778891
That’s pretty badass but is only useful at specific angles and within a certain radius of the sun. You’re not peeking through the giant dust clouds deeper in the Milky Way with it. Bring on fuzzy images of dead rocks!

>>10778907
>You’re miserable because you think making up variables is bad

Here I’ll do it myself. There’s only one other civilization in the entire observable universe. They’re billions of light years away and contact with them is impossible. Paradox “solved”

>>10778909
The explanation for the galaxy's apparent silence isn't silly, though our disinterest in keeping our civilization just as silent may prove to be. The Killing Star is about our civilization's destruction at the hands of an unknown and unseen alien civilization. There is no warning. Earth and its colonies are all wiped from existance in a single, coordinated, simultaneous attack using relativistic weapons. We never even see the face of our attacker before our civilization is utterly destroyed. All of that happens in the first chapter. It's a great read.

>>10778929
Worth it. Get to know aliens exist before exploding.

>>10778926
You think you're teasing me but I'm totally happy with that solution.

>There’s only one other civilization in the entire observable universe

See, that would be fascinating to discover. If we find no other life, or find life but no other intelligent life, or find intelligent life but no other civilizations, all of those scenarios are thrilling, because it presents a new question of "why?"

>>10778945
No they’re really boring and lame. Gimme Beepleblorp.

>>10778940
No one on Earth got to know that before exploding. One guy on one of Mars' moons is alerted by a computer system which detects final trajectory adjustments made by the relativistic projectiles, but they're traveling above .98 c, so seeing them means they're practically on top of you. So he figures out what he's looking at and briefly realizes there's an attack but then is killed seconds later in the attack.

>>10778957
That’s what happens when you spawn next to Fanatical Purifier empires.

>>10778893
>>10778803
Let me build off of these two posts and hit everyone with something to think about. Any aliens that could both be capable of interstellar travel and have a reason for visiting us would almost always be hostile. The best analogy for this is the Scrin from CnC. They are mindbogglingly advanced compared to humanity. They have wormhole transportation, the ability to communicate with each other over any distance, sentient AI that helps them work, and their bodies themselves are some sort of machine+organic hybrid. The Scrin however only have one real goal and that is to seed and harvest tiberium. The only planets that can support Tib growth happen to be earth like planets. The scrin are willing to transverse the galaxy looking for those sweet sweet planets that can grow their space crack rocks and any indigenous species that gets in the way is simply exterminated because honestly what could they have that the Scrin would want? So bearing this in mind you better hope that we are alone in our local region because otherwise we might just become some aliens meth farm.

>>10778988
>Everyone is a sociopath just like me guys it makes sense

There is literally not one element on Earth not plentiful elsewhere.

>>10778604
that kurzesagt video gets reposted to Reddit every couple of weeks and makes people feel smart

>>10778996
Agreed. This anon's >>10778988 sentiment I agree with (if we find we have no neighbors, we should count ourselves lucky) but his reasons for having that sentiment are far-fetched. Aliens won't come for our water or our women or our gold. Earth is important to earthlings, but only to earthlings. To the galaxy, it's entirely insignificant and totally not worth visiting. An alien civilization capable of doing the other things anon mentioned them capable of doing could not possibly be interested in anything we have. They might, very, very slim "might," have the very smallest interest in what kind of life we have here. But even that's a stretch, because it would be trivial for such a civilization to design some life from scratch that's much better able to do anything earth life is capable of doing. So maybe some alien civilization could consider earth life to be a novelty, like some pretty moss or an interesting slime mold.

>>10778996

In which case there is no reason for aliens to visit. Of course the same can be said of most things on earth as well. You don't have to go to the supermarket to get food. You could wander out into the wilderness and find the ingredients you need to make a pizza, it would be a lot more time and resource intensive but you could do it. Or you could go to the supermarket where all of the ingredients have already been assembled into a pizza for you. I would think that might be the same reasoning. The Scrin could try to grow tiberium elsewhere but maybe it only grows on specifically earth like conditions, and who knows maybe most of the time the planets are uninhibited, but occasionally you run into inhibited ones and they are so rare that you simply can't pass them up because some lower life forms are in the way.

>Everyone is a sociopath
To some extent everyone is simply by virtue of the fact that no one is a perfect altruist. Again if you are a sufficiently advanced alien why would you care about some primitives getting in your way? Do you go around trying to stop human exterminators from fumigating peoples houses when they have termites in them? Do you protest logging personnel cutting down trees in the amazon? I don't think so, I think your insult was made out of ignorance and not a real understanding of what we are discussing here.

>>10779029
>There is literally not one element on Earth not plentiful elsewhere.
Meant to reply to that quote in first part of response.

>>10779029
>You could wander out into the wilderness and find the ingredients you need to make a pizza, it would be a lot more time and resource intensive but you could do it. Or you could go to the supermarket where all of the ingredients have already been assembled into a pizza for you.

Okay, but to make this analogy fit interstellar conquest, the supermarket is on the moon. The wilderness is looking easier now, isn't it.

>>10779029
>Addendum: RE; supermarket analogy
Perhaps not the best analogy. You could also liken it to finding crude oil on earth. We have the capability to synthesize oil and we have alternative energy sources but oil that is already in the ground is easier to simply extract and a more powerful energy source than the alternatives. Most of the time when we find oil it is on empty land but occasionally other people are sitting on that oil we want so we have to take it from them.

>>10779021
The only interest could be sociological or zoological in nature. They’d literally just subscribe to Netflix or something and collect genomes.

>>10779037
Okay, but to make this analogy fit interstellar conquest, the oil deposit is on the Moon. Synthesizing it is looking easier now, isn't it.

>>10779034
>the supermarket is on the moon
Why? No water, no carbon, no atmosphere, colder than hell at night, hotter than hell in the day. Again tiberium only grows under very limited conditions and tiberium is central to the continued existence of the scrin because it is both their "food" and the universes best source of fuel/resources. It would be like if you could invent a plant that could synthesize Oil for you but only grew in very specific conditions.

>>10778694
Aliens don't have to come to earth for there to be evidence of them, retard. There isn't even any evidence of things like Dyson spheres, Matrioshka brains, or other signs of megascale engineering that advanced alien civilizations would likely be capable of.

>>10779043
Also you seem to be forgetting the part where the scrin have faster than light travel (wormholes). If you could teleport to the moon and get all the oil you'd ever need vs. gathering up all the components locally and making it in a lab which would you choose? Bearing in mind too that no matter what you do even if you try to gather the materials locally at first they will eventually run out.

>>10778604
But once self-propagating systems have attained global scale, two crucial differences emerge. The first difference is in the number of individuals from among which the "fittest" are selected. Self-prop systems sufficiently big and powerful to be plausible contenders for global dominance will probably number in the dozens, or possibly in the hundreds; they certainly will not number in the millions. With so few individuals from among which to select the "fittest," it seems safe to say that the process of natural selection will be inefficient in promoting the fitness for survival of the dominant global self-prop systems. It should also be noted that among biological organisms, species that consist of a relatively small number of large individuals are more vulnerable to extinction than species that consist of a large number of small individuals. Though the analogy between biological organisms and self-propagating systems of human beings is far from perfect, still the prospect for viability of a world-system based on the dominance of a few global self-prop systems does not look encouraging.

>>10779056
The second difference is that in the absence of rapid, worldwide transportation and communication, the breakdown or the destructive action of a small-scale self-prop system has only local repercussions. Outside the limited zone where such a self-prop system has been active there will be other self-prop systems among which the process of evolution through natural selection will continue. But where rapid, worldwide transportation and communication have led to the emergence of global self-prop systems, the breakdown or the destructive action of any one such system can shake the whole world-system. Consequently, in the process of trial and error that is evolution through natural selection, it is highly probable that after only a relatively small number of "trials" resulting in "errors," the world-system will break down or will be so severely disrupted that none of the world's larger or more complex self-prop systems will be able to survive. Thus, for such self-prop systems, the trial-and-error process comes to an end; evolution through natural selection cannot continue long enough to create global self-prop systems possessing the subtle and sophisticated mechanisms that prevent destructive internal competition within complex biological organisms.

>>10779059
Meanwhile, fierce competition among global self-prop systems will have led to such drastic and rapid alterations in the Earth's climate, the composition of its atmosphere, the chemistry of its oceans, and so forth, that the effect on the biosphere will be devastating. In Part IV of the present chapter we will carry this line of inquiry further: We will argue that if the development of the technological world-system is allowed to proceed to its logical conclusion, then in all probability the Earth will be left a dead planet-a planet on which nothing will remain alive except, maybe, some of the simplest organisms-certain bacteria, algae, etc.-that are capable of surviving under extreme conditions.

>>10779052
Funnily enough it also doesn't help that everything is moving away from each other so even if there are aliens we would only maybe be able to contact the ones in our local cluster.

>>10778814
Maybe it's because I don't spend much time in /sci/ so it's hard for me to tell, but this guy is trolling, right? So many assumptions based on nothing

>>10779060
The theory we've outlined here provides a plausible explanation for the so-called Fermi Paradox. It is believed that there should be numerous planets on which technologically advanced civilizations have evolved, and which are not so remote from us that we could not by this time have detected their radio transmissions. The Fermi Paradox consists in the fact that our astronomers have never yet been able to detect any radio signals that seem to have originated from an intelligent extraterrestrial source.
According to Ray Kurzweil, one common explanation of the Fermi Paradox is "that a civilization may obliterate itself once it reaches radio capability." Kurzweil continues: "This explanation might be acceptable if we were talking about only a few such civilizations, but [if such civilizations have been numerous], it is not credible to believe that every one of them destroyed itself" Kurzweil would be right if the self-destruction of a civilization were merely a matter of chance. But there is nothing implausible about the foregoing explanation of the Fermi Paradox if there is a process common to all technologically advanced civilizations that consistently leads them to self-destruction. Here we've been arguing that there is such a process.

>>10779056
>Kaczynski ad
Replace "technology" with "the Jews" and you get a /pol/tard rant.

>>10779029
>In which case there is no reason for aliens to visit.

I’d visit just to see the goddamn aliens. I hear they eat with their mouths. Isn’t that sickening?

>Or you could go to the supermarket where all of the ingredients have already been assembled into a pizza for you.

What? What have we “assembled” here and in any more relevant density than elsewhere?

>and who knows maybe most of the time the planets are uninhibited, but occasionally you run into inhibited ones and they are so rare that you simply can't pass them up because some lower life forms are in the way.

Why would anyone ever want habitable planets? One is enough for trillions, and there’s no evidence our population will exceed twenty billion.

>To some extent everyone is simply by virtue of the fact that no one is a perfect altruist.

Not how sociopathy is defined.

>Again if you are a sufficiently advanced alien why would you care about some primitives getting in your way?

Because they also subjectively experience reality and I do not wish to harm other subjects. I’d rather establish a vassal relationship or otherwise enroll them in the Federation so more efficient resource exploitation can take place in their territory without some insane holocaust happening. If they’re not interested, we must go elsewhere.

>Do you go around trying to stop human exterminators from fumigating peoples houses when they have termites in them?

Would if I could. Houses should be constructed in such a manner that termites can not exploit them so the conflict does not arise.

>Do you protest logging personnel cutting down trees in the amazon?

Yes, actually. It’s mostly done for the cattle sector which I also oppose on ethical grounds.

>>10779052
>Dude what about things we know are physically impossible without colossal revolutions in materials science

>>10779065
Are you saying Jews *don't* hold a disproportionate amount of positions of power and show noticeable favoritism towards one another at the expense of non-Jews while trying to cloak themselves in the majority population?

>>10779029
Youre a dang moron anon, there is no special onobtanium in the universe that only grows around life, and even if there was, a race as advanced enough as the one you mention would certainly be able to assemble matter at the atomic scale out of whatever atoms they find.


The real solution to the paradox is simple: the universe is too young and we may live in a cosmic void. Alternatively if the tic-tacs are real we have been visited but the public simply doesnt know.

Also, if there are aliens the only thing we would encounter would be drones not flesh creatures

>>10779034
I actually like this pizza analogy, because you can use familiar distances to hint at how enormous interstellar distances are.

Vega is 25 light years away. It's also the star the alien signal comes from in the movie Contact. So Vega's own star system is its wilderness, and we are Vega's supermarket.

Using the distance of Vega, how far away should the supermarket in our familiar-distances analogy be? Well, that depends how far away we decide the wilderness is. I'm going to be as generous as possible and say that the "wilderness" is my kitchen counter, which I just measured using footsteps to be about 13 feet away. So suppose I have all the ingredients I need to make a pizza on my counter, but I'm super lazy and want to just grab an already-made pizza. How far away is the supermarket, to fit the analogy of Vega aliens coming to earth?

If the Vega aliens have an asteroid belt in their local area (say within 3 AU from their home world), but decide to come to Earth instead, that's the same as me not wanting to make my pizza from the ingredients on my kitchen counter, and instead driving to a supermarket 3,893 miles away.

>>10778604
>Why do you people keep bring up the Fermi paradox
>brings up Fermi Paradox
Yes, OP, there is no paradox. You are not going to solve people bringing it up once and for all though, just reply to an actual fermi meme thread instead of creating this one.

>>10779082
There’s enough iron in Mercury alone to make thousands of miles-long spaceships. The idea that exploitation is a meaningful Casus Beli for aliens is absurd.

>>10779085
Why do people on /sci/ keep bringing up people on /sci/ bringing up the Fermi Paradox?
I feel like I should bring this matter up someplace.
But where...

>>10779082
In my head I'm just seeing you holding a shitty coupon flyer you got in the mail for a pizza place 4,000 miles away, while looking down at the ingredients on your counter, glancing at the instructions to make a pizza, and saying. "...this is some buuuuuuullshit," and grabbing your keys.

Our alien conquerors, ladies and gentlemen.

>>10779070
>Not how sociopathy is defined.
Incorrect. Sociopathyis partly defined by caring about yourself more than others. Which leads into why they aren't empathetic and why they don't care for morality and law.

>I’d visit just to see the goddamn aliens.
So now you are contradicting your earlier replies to the other anon? At least try to stay consistent.

>What have we “assembled” here, Why would anyone ever want habitable planets?
Reread my posts, also why would anyone want habitable planets? Really guy? If your not going to even put in the bare minimum of effort to engage in discussion I don't know what you could possibly hope for. I'm not going to explain to you why sentient beings want to live and reproduce.

>blatant lies about being a pacifist who values all living creatures
LOL. I'll humor you though. Which is more likely to succeed? An organism that carelessly exploits all of the resources available to it or an organism that concerns itself with arbitrary morals and ethics? Or why doesn't Tibet rule China?

>>10779109
>by caring about yourself more than others
What a fucking retard typing

>>10779109
>Incorrect. Sociopathyis partly defined by caring about yourself more than others. Which leads into why they aren't empathetic and why they don't care for morality and law.

Sociopathy is defined by a complete lack of empathy, not merely not being Jesus Christ.

>So now you are contradicting your earlier replies to the other anon? At least try to stay consistent.

Literally where did I do that? You’d have quoted me if I did.

>Reread my posts, also why would anyone want habitable planets? Really guy? If your not going to even put in the bare minimum of effort to engage in discussion I don't know what you could possibly hope for. I'm not going to explain to you why sentient beings want to live and reproduce.

No they don’t. They want to have sex, and kids are an unwanted side effect. The fertility rate is below replacement level in developed countries. Even if the population magically expanded in the future despite the GLOBAL TREND DOWNEARDS IN FERTILITY, space habitats would make a much more realistic option.

>blatant lies about being a pacifist who values all living creatures

I’m sorry that you literally think people who aren’t sociopaths like you are lying. Bye.

>China doesn’t have ethics

The state of /pol/

>>10778604
For the same reason you made this thread, OP. Because you are a turbonormie who thinks pop science has something to do with science.

>>10779056
>>10779059
>>10779060
>>10779063
>/pol/ shit that has nothing to do with /sci/

fuck off back to your containment board, take your butt boy with you

>>10779052
Nobody would ever seriously build Dyson spheres, it's like sending internets by smoke signals. What will you do if you're at an astronomic distance from your Dyson sphere?

>>10779708
I don't understand the question.

>>10779079
>The real solution to the paradox is simple: the universe is too young and we may live in a cosmic void.

Both are false. Milky Way is not a void and the universe is almost 14 billions years old.

The real solution is the most straightforward - that life is extremely rare. Alternatively, intelligent life is extremely rare. We may be alone in the entire observable universe.

>>10778872
>Our population growth has halted in the developed world, and birthrates are dropping globally

A self-correcting anomaly that will not last. Cultures and/or races with lower birth rates diminish, those with higher rates take over in the long term.

>>10779334
>the Fermi Paradox has nothing to do with /sci/

>>10778872
>A vastly superior solution to boredom would be a VR world from which they never leave.

No, as there is a very particular excitement derived simply from doing something in the real, not virtual world. Thinking that all aliens are content to be in VR forever is exceedingly implausible.

>>10779816
>The real solution is the most straightforward - that life is extremely rare. Alternatively, intelligent life is extremely rare. We may be alone in the entire observable universe.

No, the real solution is the one I like best because reasons - intelligent life doesn't stay at a stage analogous to our current one for long. We are no longer as primitive as apes but are not yet as powerful as angels. On a geological timescale, our time spent between the two extremes will be the blink of an eye. We cannot conceive of what we will be like or how we will communicate when we become to our current selves as our current selves are to ants.

>>10778604
Why is this even a paradox?
If there are other civilizations in the universe, then why is it mandatory that these be more developed than us?
Seems stupid to assert that, despite probability.

>>10779052
>Dyson spheres, Matrioshka brains

Pointless sci-fi bullshit on the level of flying cars and round TV's from 70's sci-fi movies.

>>10778658
>Because we seem to be all alone and we can not figure out why.

Because we can't see shit? We wouldn't be able to detect ourselves from 100 light years away.

>>10780235
The mediocrity principle implies that humans should be a civilization of average advancement among all life. Us being the most advanced would make as unusual outliers, so it's more likely that there are at least some life forms more advanced than us. Considering we're dealing with geologic timescales here, the differences should be massive if there is any difference.

>>10780235
>Why is this even a paradox?
It's a misnomer.

>>10780268
Our universe is incredibly young. It exists for 14 billion years and will keep existing for trillions of trillions of trillions of years more. We happened to evolve in very early stages of the universe. Few billion years ago Milky Way was far more chaotic so it would be incredibly hard for advanced life to evolve back then. We may be one of the earliest civilizations in the galaxy.

And even if we are not nothing says that aliens will want to colonize everything or build mega structures. It's pure speculation. Single solar system will be able to house trillions of humans and it may be much better to build space habitats suitable for your species than go terraform planets.

Even as primitive as we are we are not blowing up every mountain and cutting down every forest to build cities there. Assuming that aliens would spread everywhere just because they can is retarded.

Fermi Paradox means nothing. After we have next gen telescopes that can see and analyze atmospheres of other planets and yet still can't find any life it will mean something. Right now it's nothing made by a bored scientist so idiots have something to talk about.

>>10780235
It's not mandatory; it's assumed. It's assumed because of probability.

790,000 years ago, humans had invented cooking, and 400,000 years ago, we discovered pigments, but it still took ~350,000 years before we started painting on the walls of caves. Then it was another 25,000 years before we developed pottery. Do you know what were we doing 25,000 years after that? I can't tell you, because we're still 7,000 years shy of 25,000. 18,000 years after pottery, however, we were driving robots on Mars.

What do you suppose we'll be doing 25,000 years from now? How about 400,000 years from now? 790,000?

Assuming we survive that long, most moments in human history will have taken place either in a time when humans did not yet having pottery, or in a time where they had already driven robots on Mars. If we encounter another civilization, then merely by considering the odds, it seems reasonable to suppose that it will either be very primitive, or very advanced.

>>10779073
>implying that a sufficiently advanced alien civilization wouldn't have the aforementioned revolutions in materials science

>alien civilizations sufficiently advanced enough to have revolutionary materials would have revolutionary materials
groundbreaking

>>10778917
Yeah depending on the planet's inclination you're always going to miss out some of the surface.

Hypothetically, if we find proof of alien microbes in the solar system, would we add them as a variable to the Drake Equation, even if there's a possibility that those microbes and life on Earth originate from a common source?

when will you science fags stop? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXi3K8LusZQ

>>10780803
>fags
Why the homophobia?

>>10780831
Why the faggotry?

>>10780831
dilate

>>10780235
our civilization is like a hundred years old and changing rapidly, so we are a huge anomaly right now, in a transitional state

whatever aliens are, they are very different from us, either nonexistent/extinct, or extremely advanced

>>10780285
>Few billion years ago Milky Way was far more chaotic so it would be incredibly hard for advanced life to evolve back then.

Not true, Milky way is essentially similar to today, with many sunlike stars, for 10 billions years or so.

>>10781217
Complete bullshit.

>>10779816
We literally can't observe exoplanets. We are super lucky to get one pixel. We know shit and acting like we should be able to discover aliens by now is idiotic.

Not to mention our own radio emissions are calming down and getting far harder to detect. More advanced civilizations will be even harder to see and they may use completely different technology to communicate.

Dyson crap is a complete meme. By the time civilization can build something like that they will have far better ways to get energy. And even large swarms of giant habitats would be impossible to detect with current tech.

>>10781258
First stars were heavy and lived short lives you dumb fuck. It did not take long for metallicity to approach present levels and produce many Sunlike stars. We can see the evolution of galaxies laid out before us by looking at distant ones. The universe is rather similar for 10 billion years or so, certainly similar enough to create habitable planets like Earth. Whether they are inhabited is another matter.

I can't but to help but to feel that this thread was made by the very same OP who made it last week because these arguments read almost the same.

>>10781270
We should be able to doscover aliens because they ought to be here, right in our solar system. It takes only a few millions of years to colonize entire galaxy. You do not need to observe some distant radio waves like a retard.

Also, you can hide some isolated orbital habitats. You cannot hide a galaxy full of them. We would have seen the effects on stellar spectra across teh galaxy. They just arent there, senpai.

>>10781270
They would know Earth is here, has complex oxygen powered life, and at least some ought to beam messages at us to contact us, or launch probes at us.

>>10781284
It is the same retard that thinks aliens would be just humans 2.0, with single civilization confined to one planet and timescales measured in millenia. Like in some cheap sci-fi movie.

No, real alien life either does not have intelligence, or they are technological gods and are spread everywhere. There is no in-between. The in-between is a fleeting boom of intelligence lasting for a cosmic instant.

>>10781281
No you complete fucking retard, just look at the rate of star formation.

>>10781290
>It takes only a few millions of years to colonize entire galaxy.

Nobody would do this you fucking ape.

Half of the Earth barely has any people while cities are packed like hives. Giant space empires spanning entire galaxies is sci-fi bullshit.

>>10781301
Rate is star formation is slowly decreasing for the past 10 billion years. As I said, the universe is already an old place. The Sun is neither special, nor first.

>>10781294
>some ought to beam messages at us to contact us

Why? Because you say so?

>or launch probes at us

And who says they are not observing us for a long time already?

>>10781306
Entire Earth is covered in evidence of human civilization. No exceptions. There is no civilization on the planet unaware of it, including hidden uncontacted tribes.

>Nobody would do this you fucking ape.

It only takes one.

>>10781300

Let's just pray there are no technological gods anywhere near us. I'd rather not get visited by real life Advent. Not unless they're sending their sexiest alien females to breed with us.

>>10781308
>Milky Way is the same for 10 billion years!
>picture shows 4x higher rate 10 billion years ago

Autism.

>>10781309
>And who says they are not observing us for a long time already?

Well, "aliens are already here" is definitely the second most plausible explanation for the Fermi paradox after "intelligent life is very rare". But it suffers from being mostly conspiracy bullshit and the requirement for all aliens to be actively hiding their presence, not just here but in entire galaxy, which is implausible.

>>10781314
4x difference is still the same order of magnitude, retard, it does not change the argument

there were millions of Sunlike stars 10 billion years ago already

>>10781319
We literally have no means of detecting alien civilizations that are not radio waves or gigantic super structures. First is a primitive method that probably gets replaced by quantum communication or whatever, second is a sci-fi concept.

Not to mention we already detected countless unexplained stuff out there.

>>10781322
>there were millions of Sunlike stars 10 billion years ago already

Along billions of very active and dangerous stars making life near them impossible. And many times more random crap that could end life flying out there.

Galaxy calmed down a lot since then.

>>10781325
No, it was calm enough already 10 billions years ago for life to develop, also the galaxy is not uniform and there were always large calm areas. Again, we can see this when we look at distant galaxies.

The Sun is not special, get over it. As far as explanations for Fermi paradox go, Sun being special is among the most implausible ones.

If life was present in one galaxy at a time, it would be extremely common, yet we wouldn’t have any way to contact them or even know they exist until the end of the universe

Pic related would be a perfect depiction of our existences
Clinging to a big star until it runs out of energy

>>10781329
>No, it was calm enough already 10 billions years ago for life to develop

How the fuck do you know? We have a single case of life developing. We don't know what conditions are necessary.

>>10781338
this assumes aliens are just like contemporary human civilization, which is very improbable due to mediocrity principle

they are either much less, or much more advanced

>>10781350
We know because we can directly see countless other galaxies that are equivalent to young Milky Way. They seem hospitable for life. Of course, this does not mean life has to develop there, but if it did not, then it was for some other reason rather than stellar evolution.

>>10781352
No this don’t assume anything
Life could be bacteria level or higher but still we would have no way to know it exist or existed even if it was in the nearest galaxy
Same if it’s a type I or II civilization
I don’t see how a type III could exist

>>10781361
Type II would be able to catalogue every habitable planet in the galaxy, including Earth, and be capable of beaming laser messages at us that outshine most stars

Type III would already be everywhere, including here

There is no reason to believe type III is impossible. If you are type II, progress towards type III is straightforward. It merely takes time and energy, something such civilization would have in huge abundance.

Human birth rates are already slowing down and advanced societies struggle to not have negative growth.

Interstellar colonization is a meme. Advanced civilizations would have 99% of their people stay in the home system while only freaks and scientists travel elsewhere.

>>10781403
Type II is supposed to be able to gather the energy from it’s host star
Type III is supposed to be able to do the same but with it’s entire host galaxy

We could take all energy we wanted from the sun, I still don’t think we’d be able to visit another galaxy thanks to it

>>10781411
Wouldn't that mean we should be seeing machine civilizations?

Real N-word hours https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PNXRG2iShQ

>>10781434
We can't see shit unless they build sun sized Death Stars.

We struggle to directly observe planets just few light years away.

Some of the detected exoplanets could be giant structures we have no way of knowing.

>>10781482
My bad.

>>10778604
Why this thread became the talks about Fermi Paradox? OP clearly said that Fermi Paradox is no paradox, so in this many reply should be about How paradox the Fermi Paradox is, How we define a clarity of answers in Fermi Paradox, or What is the meaning of Paradox etc. NOT on the contents of Paradox itself.

>>10781515

>Fermi Paradox is no paradox

But it is. Or at least its a profound curiosity that demands an explanation.

>>10780312
I do not believe that we can make declarations like that at this time.

>>10779826
>No, as there is a very particular excitement derived simply from doing something in the real, not virtual world.

...uh.....how? What makes you think they necessarily even know?

>>10779821
ALL populations have declining birthrates.

>>10780490
I don’t mean that, I mean you’re limited to viewing angles where a comparatively small sliver of FOV is affected by gravitational lensing. Stars aren’t trekking across our sky very fast.

>>10781557
Why not?

>>10781598
Because we don’t know said materials science is possible at all?

>>10778604
i took a monographic course about fermi paradox and there were no bugmen
t. european

>>10781548
No and no

>>10781692
we need more data for a lot of the point-estimates in the drake question.

>>10778798
Not true, we have 1 datum.

>>10781411
groups with low birth rates go extinct, groups with higher birthrates prevail

low birth rates are thus temporary and not sustainable

>>10781561
>ALL populations have declining birthrates.
those who decline less will be dominant in the future, and so on, in the long term reversing this temporary trend

>>10782386
No.

Drumpf just confirmed that aliens don't exist on fox news!

micronovas

>>10783804
What are supernovas?

What if ftl travel isn't possible, I read once that just space background radiation waves hitting a ship traveling .3 of light speed would have enough force to destroy it.
Now all trips take hella long and it just happens that humanity are the most advanced species nearby since zorgon III lost their molten core this having radiation burn away their atmosphere, and blagnar got hit by an exoplanet.

>>10778604
It makes stupid NPCs feel smart because it's complete nonsense that has an obvious answer but they get to overcomplicate it in a way that even they can understand because it's so retarded and at the same time it makes them feel special in the universe.

NPCs are disgusting. Pop science was a mistake.

>>10778604
Do you really need to get rekt in a third thread?

>>10780251
This. It's much less effort to just colonize a new star system than to build a fucking monumental engineering feat whose diameter is multiple stars' reach in size. Literally no alien species is ever going to create a Dyson Sphere because it's a waste of everyone's time.

>>10784179
People are just impatient.
They don't accept that it might take hundreds of years to colonize the solar system and thousands to develop the tech needed to go to nearby stars.

>>10780255
>We wouldn't be able to detect ourselves from 100 light years away.
True.. but we are NOT an interstellar civilization yet. Spotting a Type 2 or better civilization should be relatively easy (unless they deliberately really really really go out of their way to hide)

>>10778852
>>10778853
This shit is hilarious. These retards are actually positing impossible engineering feats as an "argument" that space travel is possible.
Fucking morons, man.

>>10784179
I'm not the OP of this thread moron, I solved the Fermi paradox in the other thread (showing that it is not possible to space travel as a solution) and all you can do is cry about it.

>>10779816
It took a while for heavy elements to form though.

>>10782379
>low birth rates are thus temporary and not sustainable
bullshit
every single demographic trend is slapping you across the face with its cock
the only reason we ever used to have 12 kids is because 10 died and then our standard of living shot through the fucking roof and population plateaued, because nobody actually WANTS dozen little niggers hanging from their neck for the rest of their productive life
people want to have fun and do shit they like doing
that's the population decline of developed nations you're seeing.
and it's happening everywhere
even Africans are much less off the rails as they used to be few decades ago and only a handful of countries globally remain with birth rates we consider too much to take long term

>>10778604
There is no space. There are no planets.

>>10778988
The other planets in the system and asteroid belts are more plentiful in every single resource than earth

>>10787881
Nope, you are once again thinking only on the scales of last few decades or a century, and trying to predict the behavior of million years into the future. But right now humanity is in a very special, transitionary period, not representative of how things will look like in lets say, a millenium. Evolution works in the long term and in the long term, there WILL be another population or subculture that enjoys modern, highly developed lifestyle but also has more than 2 kids per couple on average. And by the simple power of evolution and mathematics, they will come to dominate sooner or later.

>>10787841
Not really, first stars were composed of hydrogen only and thus often very heavy, and as such they had short lifetimes on the order of few millions of years. it did not take long for them to explode. So there were already plentiful heavy elements 10 billion years ago in millions of star systems.

>>10787921
What a retarded neo-nazi talking point. You cannot have infinite growth on a finite planet.

The universe has the following life:

life on Earth

God

angels

Satan and his devils

Some bacteria growing on Mars that we will find out later originated from the Mars orbiters.

That's it. Science doesn't like this answer.

>>10787938
not infinite growth, just growth, you dumb fuck

(almost) infinite growth is what the universe is for

>>10787945
What pressure is there to have more kids in a highly developed environment? There's a pressure to have less kids, as more kids are more financially taxing on the parents. There can be evolutionary disadvantages to having more kids.

>>10778604
Then tell me where all the aliens are

oh what? you don't know? the universe is big and our understand of it is infinitesimal?

>>10778857
this is what people call a "straw man" argument

>>10778843
>Impossible to locate habitable planets in our own galaxy
Want to know how I know you're retarded?

>>10778792
With current technological limitations, it would take around 5 million years to spread across the entire galaxy.

Remind me how long ago the dinosaurs lived, and you can see why that anon called it a 'galactic instant.'