/sci/ - Science & Math

both peterson and rogan are dumbasses and you're poisoning your mind paying any attention to them

By bingo I meant binge btw. JP bingo could be fun though lol

Joe Rogan is reddit made flesh.

>>10578952
You're joe rogan and reddit

>>10578941
Scientists are not some beings that magically appear out of thin air. They are people. If you want science to investigates those things just become a scientist and do it yourself. Or if you are too busy for that then just fund some kind of "stoned ape institute" where you give grants to scholars who want to research the theory, etc.

Tired of low IQ posts today.

>>10578941
Was it Graham Hancock? That guy is a loon and complains 24/7 about being shunned by Egyptologists because he believes pyramids are 20,000 years old built using elaborate flood water rafts or some shit. Archeologists are skeptical of that claim, and that to him, is because there is a massive conspiracy and they're all in on it.

>>10578941
>He talks about how the "scientific" community so often doesnt consider scientific theories they dont agree with.

Can’t be a theory unless it has evidence.

>The stoned ape theory is a prime example.

Where’s the evidence?

>The role of pineal glands is another.

What evidence do you have that the pineal gland has purposes aside from those recognized?

>Pineal glands literally are the third eye, you can see it in reptiles.

Pineal “eyes” are not pineal glands, they’re pineal “eyes” used for regulating circadian rhythms. It’s not magic. It’s a tiny photoreceptor that differentiates between light and dark.

>And then considering the links with Egypt and the eye

An ancient culture used eyes as religious symbols. What does that have to do with a lizard’s photoreceptor?

>Implications of the psychedelic experience

That the mind is apparently sourced from material phenomena since a little brain chemistry alteration can so heavily distort perception?
Where’s the evidence?

>>10578941
>Jordan Peterson bingo
what the fuck is this even about

>>10578941
>Jordan Peterson bingo
Pic related

>>10578941
>The stoned ape theory is a prime example.
...of what?! The effect of psychedelic drugs on Terence McKenna?

>>10578941
Scientists are actually very interested in psychadelics and their effect on people, but since it's essentially impossible to get approval for a study and the essential materials are highly illegal, the literature is dead.

>>10578966
>just have money bro
lol

>ancient ideas are good because they are old
>stupid ideas are good because a faggot said them

T.highschool white kid smokes weed and failed to start college at the age of 16.

>>10579934
Pretty selfish of you to want the entire scientific community to focus their efforts on the few autistic ideas you like, but to not also at least pay them for their problems.

Or, you know, become a scientist yourself. Get a university loan, cuck.

>>10578941
>The role of pineal glands is another. Pineal glands literally are the third eye, you can see it in reptiles.
I'm a neuroscientist, and this one bugs me quite a bit. It's a big misconception that the pineal gland is not studied, or somehow ignored in science. It is studied a lot. And through those studies it has become clear that there is no reason to ascribe it with mystical properties as often done in esoteric culture.

The notion of the pineal gland as a 'third eye' originates from, as you point out, its photosensitive properties in amphibians and reptiles. However, it does not show photosensitive properties in humans, where its anatomical position is unsuitable to receive direct photo input. That is, due to cortical expansion in mammals, the pineal gland buried deep inside the brain where no light can reach it. Instead, it receives polysynaptic (indirect) input through other afferents that originate in the retina (e.g. the suprachiasmatic nucleus). This input does not pass through the regular visual pathways as other visual information does, but instead is routed off early in the sensory processing stream and so it does not undergo complex feature extraction. In normal people language: the 'visual' input that the pineal gland receives is not of the same quality as the visual information that we use to perceive the world. It is instead only tonically varying information that allows the body to tell whether it's night time or day time. Accordingly, pineal hormone secretion regulates the sleep-wake rhythm, and varies with circadian and ultradian cycles. This process is one of the better understood ones in neuroscience.

We do not simply ignore things because they do not fit our world view. This misconception stems from a fundamental lack of knowledge of the actual scientific literature, and I wish people like Joe Rogan would stop perpetuating this nonsense so that people like you don't get the wrong idea.

>>10579517
>it's essentially impossible to get approval
This is not quite true. Although obtaining ethical approval for studies with controlled substances is not easy, it's not all that much more difficult than getting approval for conventional pharmacological interventions. Accordingly, there are ample studies that have looked at the effect of psychedelics on subjective perception and brain dynamics. For example:

https://www.pnas.org/content/113/17/4853
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(16)30062-8.pdf
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(18)31045-5
https://elifesciences.org/articles/35082
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/376491v1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3796071/

>>10578941
>third eye
>why don't scientists accept drug-fueled works of imaginative fiction as observable and reproducible fact?
because mysticism isn't science. >>>/x/

>>10578941
>Why do scientists just ignore these revelations?
If they are ignored then they are not revelations. And vice versa.

>>10579057

>>10580160
You seem smart and knowledgeable. wtf are you doing on 4chan?!

>>10580284
I'm actually working, but I'm debugging an analysis pipeline which means there are stretches where I have to wait 20 minutes to half an hour for a bug to come up. In that time I like to lurk the 4chins and learn about mongolian basket weaving.

>>10580160
Since you are on your shit, does it really produce trace amount of DMT? Does any other brain part do so? And lastly what does neuroscience tell you about the function of this compound if its produced at all? Thanks in advance.

>>10578985
OP for some stupid reason expected everyone to know about some new age theory... Anyways he was probably talking about that the pineal gland looks like the eye of horus.

>>10580030
>to want the entire scientific community
>what is hyperbole?

>>10578985
>An ancient culture used eyes as religious symbols. What does that have to do with a lizard’s photoreceptor?
he thinks theres a connection because the eye of horus looks vaguely similar to a crossection of the pineal gland
this is utter bullshit since egyptians thought the brain was entirely unimportant so they scraped it out of their dead people and threw it into the bio trash as opposed to storing it in containers and burying it with the corpse

>>10580262
was this made before their debate, or as an after the fact joke/drinking game sort of thing.

>>10578941
>men heavily outscore women on every question except for two, which men only slightly outscore them
>one about incubation (which deals with creating new life)
>one about the widely covered topic of anti-biotic resistant bacteria (which has more to do with mainstream media consumption telling them about the issue rather than actually understanding the question)
why are women so retarded when it comes to even extremely basic science?

>>10580305
>does it really produce ...
I remember reading up about this a while back, and iirc DMT is indeed found in the pineal gland (which does not mean that it is also produced there). This in itself is not particularly surprising though, since these substances by definition show a strong chemical similarity to substances that are known to occur endogenously, because otherwise they would not bind to any neurotransmitter / neuromodulatory receptors. As such, they can be expected to be found in the human body simply by chance (the same as arsenic, cyanide, etc). Since from a toxicological perspective there's no such thing as a psychedelic compound, only a psychoactive dose of a compound, a more profound finding would be the occurrence of these substances in dosages that induce psychedelic experiences. To the best of my knowledge, that has not been shown to occur.
>what does neuroscience tell you about ...
I do not think there is a particular function to it. It only shows extraordinarily high binding potential to the receptors that neurons use to transduct signals. It basically hijacks the endogenous signaling pathways in the brain, in particular those involved in visual experience. It's like shining a very strong light in your eyes, except not in your eyes but directly in the visual cortex. As a consequence, the endogenous architectural properties of the visual system are amplified such that we see what our visual cortex is predisposed to see (objects, faces, etc).

But if I had to speculate, and under the (questionable) assumption that DMT is produced in sufficient amounts to be of meaningful consequence for neural function a the systems-level, then I'd say its function would be probably somewhat similar to that of other neuromodulators (serotonin / norepinephrine / dopamine / etc). That is, it does not function as a transmitter directly, but instead influences the function of other transmitters so as to globally modulate signal transduction properties.

>>10580321
before

>>10580350
Thanks so much for a detailed explanation anon. Definitely capturing that, it clears up a lot. Little questions I forgot, if you have the time. Is there any connection between visual cortex being active during dreaming and DMT? To a brainlet it seems like a perfect fit. Or any other analogue to DMT, seems like their are many of those two ringed bitches in there.
Also is there any sort of a meaning to dreaming, scientifically? I read this theory a while ago about dreams being a sort of vr to experience difficult predator scenarios before hand, so that our ancestors had some way to calm nerves in these situations and therefore survived more and got selected. Or am I along with many people reading way too much into it? In other words could something like dreaming have a purpose or is it just a by product of complex structure craving stimulation even when the senses are off? Since we are deep into speculation land here I would understand you not explaining this shit.

>>10580410
>. Is there any connection between visual cortex being active during dreaming and DMT?
Sure, the connection is that during both we experience visual scenery that is unprompted by sensory input directly, and simultaneously we are perceptually decoupled from actual sensory input. But this combination is hardly unique (it also occurs during e.g. delirium, psychosis, and to a lesser extent via exogenously induced hallucinations via other psychoactive substances). So what meaning one would ascribe to this is another question.

>Also is there any sort of a meaning to dreaming, scientifically?
The short answer is that we simply do not know.

This predictive coding account of dreaming that you refer to has some merit, but keep in mind that what is meant with 'prediction' is not the fully worked out scenario kind (he hangs a left hook just as I lower my right hand), since dreams hardly ever follow a narrative that is both coherent and realistic. Instead it simply refers to coupling between sensory signal and consequence (sweet taste = good).

On the other hand, dreams may simply be epiphenomenal to other processes that are known occur during sleep, such as the consolidation of new experiences into long term memory. These processes may require specific system-level dynamics to be present, such as coordinated cortico-thalamic interactions, just as a byproduct of which visual perception emerges.

However, dreams are notoriously difficult to subject to empirical means since we cannot control their content, and people have the annoying habit of immediately forgetting them or imperfectly remembering them. This unfortunately means that it is exceedingly difficult to arbitrate between the above two competing accounts, and I don't see it happening anytime soon.

>>10580309
>dat pic
what? you don't even see the pineal gland in the eye of ra, only the thalamus lol

>>10580346
why are shitposters so retarded that they can't even shitpost in the right thread?

>>10580310
Even if you want a single scientist to do what you want you have to compensate them for their time, retard. They are not going to work for free. When are goys going to understand this?

>>10580549
do calcified pineal glands have less DMT?

>>10578945
fpbp

>>10578975
Its more like 11,600 years ago. Why you trying to make him look twice as stupid?

>>10578945
Joe Rogan is an idiot but somehow he keeps getting really great guests on his show so it's still worth watching

>>10578975
Every year more and more evidence gets uncovered which supports his theories. Watch the Joe rogan episode where he and that fat guy debate the skeptics.

>>10582193
Because the anon is unhappy with his own life and projects that hatred onto everything he watches, wether its deserved or not.

>>10582209
>somehow he keeps getting really great guests
name 10(ten)

>>10582419
Sir Roger Penrose
ehhh ....

>>10582419
Easy

>>10582226
>theories
You mean hypotheses

>>10578953

>>10579438
>computer science jobs
heh

>>10582681
Ima be 100 wichu chief, this looks like a promo for a new brittish detective show.

>>10578975
Graham Hancuck is the typical loon who knows how to fool the brain dead masses into thinking he's smart and they're smart for believing his shit.

>>10580160
>pineal hormone secretion regulates the sleep-wake rhythm
how does it know if it's day or night when it can't receive light?

>>10585246
>hancuck
Heh

>>10585249
Read this again. >>10580160

>>10578941
Joe Rogan is the male Terry Gross

>muh erosion

>>10585249
According to >>10580160 (I think), it receives rudimentary input from the eyes.
>This input does not pass through the regular visual pathways as other visual information does, but instead is routed off early in the sensory processing stream and so it does not undergo complex feature extraction.

>>10578945
Poisoning your mind is a stretch. Nothing they say is that threatening or out there compared to the dogshit 4chan comes up with. Rogan is curious and open to new ideas, that allows him to get on people to talk about ideas off the beaten path. But still most of the ideas brought up have some merit and shows that we vastly overestimate how certain we are about a lot of things not just in hard sciences. Not saying that these people are right but it's a good exercise to listen to them and take what they say seriously at least out of respect for lives work. Peterson is brave enough to stand up to established progressive ideas, and though I don't think he's half as smart as he thinks, he is useful in at least starting a conversation people would otherwise be too uncomfortable to have because he questions their worldview.

>>10585604
Finally someone whos not a schizo.

>>10585604
>Nothing they say is that threatening or out there compared to the dogshit 4chan comes up with

is that supposed to be reassuring? if you believe anything posted on this board, you are also poisoning your mind

>>10585590
Pretty much, yeah.

Technically, the input that the pineal gland receives is not rudimentary because it functions to drive the circadian rhythm. But this input cannot be used to 'see', since it does not contain information about the visual scenery. It only contains information about how much light is shining onto the retina.

>>10585249
In humans, the pineal is not photosensitive in that if you shine light onto it directly, nothing happens. But it does receive input from other parts of the brain that track light input from the eyes.

the best thing I ever did to get a perspective on my own life was a lot of MDMA continuously for 24 hours.

>>10585998
And what perspective did you gain?

>>10586000
It was like someone had made a chronological compilation of my entire life, showing me in a very detailed manner (even the stuff I had forgotten) where I'd been, what I'd done and where I'd gotten to, and all that was experienced by me with a perspective of not just my current self, but also my past selves all rolled into one.

It's very hard to put into words really.

>>10585998
>>10586000
>>10586021
There are many trials going on (for many years now) for MDMA-assisted therapy because of this effect. it's very effective with serious results.

>>10580182
They are reproducible though. Anyone who practices enough can attain the same states of consciousness through dedicated practice, and that is why these traditions exist, at least in forms that advocate for their own traditions to be questioned if they don't give rise to what they claim to be able to achieve. There's still a chance that you might encounter charlatans who teach you bullshit, but it's up to you to be informed enough sniff out junk teachers.

>>10580262
Few more:

* Pinocchio
* Post-modernism
* It's a complex issue
* We've known about this for years

>>10580549
>>10580350
>>10580160
out of curiosity, where'd you study? fellow neuroscientist here

>>10586068
Did my PhD in the Netherlands. That's about all I'll say so that I won't be doxxed.

>>10586075
fair enough. looking into phd programs now, more than open to any recommendations.

>>10586078
I'll reply in more detail later, I have to leave soon.

In the meantime, what countries are an option for you and what field specifically?

>>10586083
US, UK, and China. electrophysiology/BCI/NIBS emphasis. Taking a hard look at MIT but need backup plans because it's fucking MIT

Bump

>>10582209
His IQ is like 130

joe rogan is unironically a genius

>>10583152
I don't, because I'm using 'theory' colloquially.

>>10578941
Read DMT the spirit molecule from the psychiatrist Rick Strassman MD.

>>10580170
Thanks for posting this, these studies are quite interesting. Would you agree that the controlled substance regulations have produced a chilling effect though?

>>10579517
Read DMT the spirit molecule by Rick Strassman MD.

>>10580160
>I'm a neuroscientist
The pineal gland is endocrinology rather than neurology. DMT's effect on the brain would be neurology, but the pineal gland itself is endocrine. Didn't read the comment.

>>10580305
People undergoing psychosis have trace amounts of DMT in their urine.

>>10580350
DMT has only been found in the pineal glands of rats. Many people claim that it's ridiculous to assume that it's possible for human pineal glands to contain DMT as well. Read DMT the spirit molecule by Rick Strassman MD where he theorizes the chemistry and physiology behind DMT in the pineal gland which would only be produced in specific situations.

>>10586086
>US
Obviously many good labs, though PhD work pays very little. Electrophysiology is found pretty much anywhere, not so much for BCI work but that's growing.

>UK
UCL is obviously great but also competitive and the pay is really quite ridiculous, especially given that London is expensive as fuck.

>China
Don't do this unless you intend to build a life there. It's easier to get a degree outside of China and then move there rather than the other way around.

In case you won't do your PhD in the US, and in case you don't have a Master's degree yet, then I'd recommend to do a two year Master's program before starting a PhD. It's a great opportunity to get some hands on experience via long (e.g. a full year) internships. That will allow you to start building up a publication record already before you start your PhD. People often think that you should get a PhD as early as possible, but in fact quite the opposite is true. Many grant deadlines start counting from the moment of your PhD defense, so the more you publish before that date, the more competitive you are when it comes to getting grants. These things snowball, so the more grants you get, the more grants you'll get in the future. Obviously this only applies if you intend to stay in academia.

>>10587050
>Didn't read the comment.
You probably should have.

>>10587050
>DMT has only been found in the pineal glands of rats.
I went ahead and checked, and it turns out that you're right.

I did come across the following though:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00536/full
This article mentions the demonstration of the presence of INMT, which is an enzyme that converts tryptophan to DMT (via NMT), in the human pineal, and various other regions. Tryptophan itself is also precursor of serotonin and melatonin, which are abundant in the nervous system. Aside from that, pineal structure and function are pretty similar between humans and phylogenetically closely related species such as rats. So it stands to reason that DMT would also be present in the human brain. But again, you're right that this has not been shown directly.

>>10587025
>the controlled substance regulations have produced a chilling effect though?
Probably initially, but that doesn't really hold true anymore today, at least in Europe.

>>10578941
weak bait

>>10583496
LOL

Bump

droppin this here

>>10578945
Peterson is worthwhile (and the anti-Peterson shit here is often pretty suspect) but Rogan is a comedian and nothing more.
His interview with Musk was cringe-inducing: he admitted (to his credit) that he couldn't understand some pretty simple shit...and so (to our detriment) he shut down the whole line of conversation, brought it down to the stoner-dude level, and kept it there.
Really disappointing for the audience.
And for Musk too, no doubt.

>>10579438
You forgot the almight quantum immortality

>>10586086
>US, UK, and China
>China
1. why would you want to live in China??
2. why would you want to work in China???
3. why would you want to work in MEDICINE IN C H I N A????!

>>10579438

this is funny but what's it got to do with jordan peterson?

>>10588573
This was my same thought reading that earlier. They don't have free speech. Be prepared to be murdered for accidentally exposing something that the chinese government keeps censored ie. the fact that Taiwan no longer belongs to China.

>>10588380
>Peterson is worthwhile
I disagree.

>>10588573
Maybe he has roots in China?

>>10586075
Another neuroscience student here. Out of curiosity, what is your research centered on and how did you decide on the topic? I will have to be contacting labs for my year long internship next semester, and I am still unclear as to what direction I should be following.
Also, I think you could say more without getting doxxed (well, if you answer my question above that won't be the case). I am studying at Radboud university, and judging by the pull that the Donders institute has, I will assume that you did your PhD here.

>>10589513
I'm sorry but I really can't disclose more about the topic since there are only a handful of labs in the world that work on that stuff.

To be honest, the choice of topic was one of convenience rather than preference. I was working as an RA at the time and submitted a grant application with my then-supervisor to fund my own position. That got rejected, bu at the same time a collaborator of ours got an ERC grant so had an open position, to which I was invited to apply. I knew a little about the topic and it was tangentially related to what I had been working on before, so it was adequate. The more I worked on it though, the more I started to like it, and by now it's the core of my own line of research.

If you're looking for an internship, then I'd say don't worry too much about the topic specifically. It's an opportunity for you to figure out what you like rather than a choice that will fix your future career. More important is if you get along with your supervisor and if he/she is willing to allow you to peruse your own ideas. So talk to people who work(ed) in the lab that you applied at and try to gauge the atmosphere. Also, have a look if the post-docs in the lab publish independently of the PI to see how tight the leash in the lab is. Ideally you'd work with the senior PI directly, not supervised by a PhD student or post-doc, because that will give you the opportunity to be first author on any papers that may follow from your internship and it will open doors for possible PhD positions afterwards (in case you want to go down that road), even if there's no funding in the lab itself.

If you're at Donders and want to do an internship there, Floris de Lange and Michael X Cohen are both excellent choices. The former is better if you want to work humans because the latter is setting up a rodent lab. Both are also open to applications from motivated students. Of course, read up on their work before applying and tailor the application to that topic.

>>10588724
Taiwan belongs to China.

>>10578945
Tell me, who do you listen to?

>>10579438
w-what's wrong with computer science?

>>10578941
>Jordan Peterson
Wow you must know how to wash your penis really well !

>>10589649
I understand, no point risking doxxing when it can be avoided.

I am happy for you that the topic grew on you. Way too often I meet with scientists that are fed up with their line of research, often even in the cases when they themselves selected it.

Well, the internship will determine my masters project, which I feel will already be bit direction giving when it comes to PhD search. The thing is that I am not going to be doing my masters project here, but in Melbourne where we will be moving with my wife as part of PhD. I expect that this will make finding the right lab a bit more difficult. Thank you for the tips, I will keep them in mind when looking through my options.

Also, thank you for the recommendations. While I already have my lab rotations set up, I am open to doing more than the minimum if it will help me decide on my masters topic. Unfortunatelly, I can't afford more than rotations, because I have to be doing all the credits in one year (due to being out of country for the second) and it is quite time taxing.