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/lit/ - Literature

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9501484 No.9501484[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

>poltards rant against "cultural marxism" and the perceived degradation of culture promoted "leftists" and "SJW"s based on news they receive from compromised media entities and youtube philosophers

>blame shadow entities with no agency such as "the media" and "politicians" for this decline

>dont realize that it was these "leftists" who figured out the true reason for this cultural decline as a result of the commodification of culture and that they are now falling into the very same trap by attempting to revert to their now reified "traditional" cultural values

>dont realize the only way to "save" culture is through the destruction of commodity capital and value

>> No.9501503

All true, and on top of that they don't realize that the multiculturalism they hate is also the result of capitalism.

>> No.9501508

>it's another /lit/ blames capitalism for everything bad thread

>> No.9501513

>>9501503
they rant about globalism and multiculturalism degrading culture and then promote neoliberalism! hahaha

>> No.9501525

whats /lits/ solution then? besides being a faggot

>> No.9501543

>>9501484
>blame shadow entities with no agency such as "the media" and "politicians" for this decline
You discredit any point you're trying to make with that statement.

Also, both the left and the conservatives are at fault; one through commodification and the other through deconstructionalism and the relativity of values that is called "cultural marxism". Both destroy any truth or merit.

>> No.9501568

>>9501543
>relativity of values that is called "cultural marxism"

Moral relativism is really the only sensible position unless you're religious or believe in Sam Harris. it shouldn't really affect society though.

>> No.9501580
File: 1.18 MB, 797x1073, IMG_0916.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9501580

>tfw when you realize that the rise of capitalism in 15th and 16th century Italy led to the death of Italian culture
Oh wait

>> No.9501585

>>9501525
as the OP said, destruction of commodity capital and value

>>9501543
>implying the media and politicians have any agency besides their imperative to profit

capital is the agent. everything that seems to act, acts through capital.

>relativity of values
lol your "values", whatever they may be, are irrelevant in modern society and merely a spectacular choice (akin to choosing the color of your shiny new car) unless you are actively working to challenge the tyranny of capital

>> No.9501586

>>9501580
>Merchant republics were capitalist
>Implying capitalism had anything to do with frescoes
>Implying frescoes were funded by capital markets rather than patronised by theocratic elites.

>> No.9501590

>>9501568
>Moral relativism is really the only sensible position
I find this issue extremely interesting and tend to agree with the first part but I find it nonsensical to claim it doesn't affect society.

That said, "cultural marxism" goes far beyond moral relativism. It applies relativism to things like science, truth, family structures, kinship, and so on. When we're done with it, we are nothing but animals once again and have destroyed millennia of attempts at civilization.

>> No.9501596

>>9501586
You're wrong, commie. Literally the only reason the Renaissance could happen was through patronage by rich merchants, who became so prosperous through (gasp) capitalism.

>> No.9501601

>>9501580
There's a reason why in the 19th century following the bourgeois revolution in France we have the worst art ever put to canvas

>> No.9501610

>>9501601
>Delacroix
>Manet
>Rodin

>> No.9501611

>>9501525
Gommynism

>> No.9501612

>>9501596
Bankers aren't merchants

>> No.9501616

>>9501585
>capital is the agent. everything that seems to act, acts through capital
Oh so now we're placing one "entity without agency" with another.
When Merkel allowed millions to illegaly cross the border and didn't dare to close the borders again, that wasn't the capital acting (although parts of it certainly welcomed it). It was her clinging to power and first being afraid of looking inhumane, then afraid of admitting to a mistake and no one else in her party dared to take responsibility either. This has been chronicled by journalists. Pretending everything is just "the capital" as if the capital wasn't such diverse actors like the Kochs and Soros is just intellectually lazy.

>lol your "values", whatever they may be, are irrelevant in modern society
That's a funny way of looking at "Don't kill people". Your radicalism really discredits anything you're saying.

>> No.9501617

>>9501610
Pale in comparison to preceding centuries. The Enlightenment put the human subject at the centre of art. It hasn't been capable of greatness since

>> No.9501620

>>9501568
In an academic philosophical sense I can agree somewhat, but when it come to the real world with crime and punishment we need socially agreed upon values. They're foundational to society.

>> No.9501623

>>9501590
The end of form is not form itself.

>> No.9501624

>>9501612
Merchants and trade directly lead to the prosperity of Florence, this is undeniable.

>>9501617
Name any period of art greater than the 19th century excluding the Renaissance

>> No.9501626

>>9501596
>You're wrong, commie. Literally the only reason the Renaissance could happen was through patronage by rich merchants, who became so prosperous through (gasp) capitalism.

Mercantilism isn't capitalism. And you posted an image of the Sistine Chapel, which was not at all funded by wealthy merchants.

Those wealthy "merchants" acted and behaved more like nobles in the end, anyway.

Not to mention that patronage is extremely rare compared to what it once was under feudal societies.

>> No.9501629

>>9501616
>clinging to power
>afraid of "looking inhumane"
>Kochs and Soros actors

lmao these things are all part of capital (although not exclusive to it of course) power, capital, status...

>> No.9501631

>>9501620
>we need socially agreed upon values. They're foundational to society.

But moral relativism doesn't prevent this. Communities are free to make moral standards and enforce them, as they should, but the moral relativist position would simply be that there is no one objective moral truth.

>> No.9501632

>>9501629
Capital could exist just as well without them, though.

>> No.9501634

>>9501624
>Merchants and trade directly lead to the prosperity of Florence, this is undeniable.

Not patronage though

>> No.9501636

>>9501612
Maybe you should look into the origins of banking and who the families were which financed kings.

>> No.9501641

how can we actively fight against the commodification of culture? i feel like things such as promoting DIY art scenes and "anti-art" are nice and all but usually lend themselves to being recuperated

>> No.9501642

>>9501624
The Renaissance.

>> No.9501645

>>9501632
thats not the point of what im saying. people who are jockeying for power, in a diverse array of positions, make decisions because of capital/power based on where they are. therefore capital/power is the actor (as now capital and power are practically synonymous)

>> No.9501647

>>9501629
>lmao everything is the capital
Wow I wonder why you're not taken more seriously.
>No dude I swear, there is no ideology; when people demand we take their otherkin pronouns seriously that's just the capital acting

>> No.9501651

>>9501636
That doesn't matter. The post said 'through patronage by rich merchants' which is false. Also guilds aren't capitalist

>> No.9501653

>>9501636
>>9501636
>>9501626
>>9501624
>>9501612


>implying rennaisance patronism even remotely resembles the process of the industrialization of culture for mass market consumption

>> No.9501660

>>9501616
Let's just ignore the way profiteers who benefit from American imperialism who make money creating all those refugees and the plundering of the third world creating the migrants.

>> No.9501662

>>9501645
That is precisely the point. These people act on drives (identity, reputation) that are exogenous to the logic of capital itself. Human beings are not utility maximizing animals.

>> No.9501665

>>9501651
?
I'm replying to a post that said "bankers aren't merchants" which is objectively wrong for the time we're discussing.

>> No.9501669

>>9501662
>identity and reputation are exogenuous to the logic of capital

lwhat is fashion?

>> No.9501673

>>9501647
lol

>> No.9501676

O ya. That worked REAL slick in China, to take one example. Millenia of culture lost. Capitalism may be bad, but so is Marx.

Here's a thought. Most political or economic systems can be bad or good depending on the moral substance of the people who run it.

>> No.9501678

>>9501660
War profiteers*

>> No.9501684

>>9501676
>Millenia of culture lost.

Fuckin postmodernists

>> No.9501685

>>9501676
>implying soviet realism or china's cultural revolution remotely resemble anything related to what the frankfurt school or the situationists were talking about

>> No.9501686

>>9501484

>No mention of the destruction of culture and tradition in Marxism.

Classic.

>> No.9501689

>>9501660
I never said "the capital" doesn't have an opinion on the refugee crisis or has nothing to do with it.

All I said was that the white girls clapping at the train station or the journalist writing his 20th NOT ALL MUSLIMS article have other interests than just the capital, such as plain virtue signalling. And that behaviour wouldn't stop just because we got rid of capitalism.

>> No.9501694

>>9501669
They go against individualist economic rationalization by placing faith in shared assumptions larger than onself.
>exogenuous
I take it that English isn't your first language?

>> No.9501698

>>9501676
Indeed, Mao destroyed chinese culture more efficiently than centuries of subjugation by colonialism did.

>>9501684
Are you falseflagging or baiting?

>> No.9501699

>>9501685
Destroy capital and you've got to start from ground zero. Of course there will be some geniuses who would like to "fix" everything.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with socialism per se, but I think it's asinine to claim that something as extreme as "destroying capital" will solve anything.

>> No.9501700

>>9501686
Dude everyone knows that the intelligentsia was the most cherished class during Marxism.

Art and culture have never flourished like they did under Mao and Lenin. Fucking commodification, man.

>> No.9501703

>>9501653
>b-b-but muh Rosengolds!

>> No.9501704

>>9501694
i used the word correctly and spelled it wrong. but nice attempt to legitimize my argument.

fashion is a display of vertical status and power. hence why you will never see a banker dressing like a trucker.

>> No.9501706
File: 192 KB, 1920x1080, future american flag.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9501706

>>9501513
I really don't know why the saw a billionaire capitalist with global financial interests pretending to be a protectionist for 24 months as a good idea. One could see from a mile away that DJT was not about to shoot himself in the foot and deconstruct his own global network of assets for the sake of being a good president.

His little boys (Eric and Junior) now make
B I G D E A L S
in dangerous nations using our secret service as their own personal tax-funded kingsguard. His daughter and son-in-law are his closest political advisors. The alt-right guy who was born in poverty (Bannon) is mostly kept around as court jester.

He fucking fired an FBI director who was under tremendous pressure to investigate both he and his opponent, and then he flip-flopped on his own reasons over the course of two days.He is the second president ever to fire an FBI director.

Goldman Sachs Executives litter his administration. He wants to bring back the failed war on drugs with his attorney general (more free labor for the for-profit prison industry). He wants to continue our interventionist foreign policy despite running as a Dove. He wants to kill the families of insurgents so we can create whole new generations of disaffected extremists in the middle east (which will inevitably as a pretense for more interventions later on)..

His secretary of state got 100 million dollars for quitting his job (a "severance" package so big you can only assume they gave it to him so he could continue to carry out their interests as SoS).

Meanwhile we had an anti-isreal, protections democrat candidate who wasn't even a millionaire (we have only had 9 non-millionaire presidents, if you adjust for inflation to 2016 dollars, and Donald is the richest we've ever had by a huge factor).

We are so brainwashed to view wealth as synonymous with merit that we won't even elect someone from our own ranks to the highest office.

Donald Trump pays more taxes on a yearly basis than I will make in an entire life time of hard work. It's a small percentage of his income, and if he could pay less he would.

That is the sort of vapid greed we are dealing with.

>> No.9501709

>>9501698
Neither, you're a postmodernist if you're concerned with the preservation of an alien culture

>> No.9501711

>>9501699
you don't understand what im saying.

>> No.9501716

O rly? Do clarify.

>> No.9501721

>>9501484
The problem is mostly not the cultural marxism itself, but (((who))) is spreading it and what goais are (((they))) trying to achieve. Cultural marxism is one of the many tools is use.

>media and politicians
>no agency

Really? Do you think certain (((people))) invest large sums of money into both of them without having any agency?

The ideals of the Left sound nice. The problem is you have to go right (assuming you don't want stalinism) when you are facing downfall of morality, horrible fertility rates and especially for Western Europe, muslim invasion.

>> No.9501726

>>9501716
>debord.gif

>> No.9501729

>>9501704
>legitimize
Not him but you used that word incorrectly.

>> No.9501734
File: 374 KB, 1018x749, asger-jorn_untitled-landscape.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9501734

SI revival when? This really is the best timeline.

>> No.9501737

>>9501721
you are exactly the type of moron this post was made about

>> No.9501743

>>9501729
meant delegitimize lol, autocorrect

>>9501734
hopefully we'll get a hundred SIs in the coming years

>> No.9501744

>>9501726
I read Society of the Spectacle. Srsly, it's good, but as per usual, I thought it oversimplifies things and comes off as a very bourgeois critique of culture. Not as bourgeois as Adorno, but still bourgeois. It's pretty much a rich art school kid manifesto, imho.

>>9501721
Get out /pol/tard. Reacting to Marxists doesn't solve the problem. Enjoy your solipsism.

>> No.9501752

>>9501706
I agree with it all but it's too lazy to just pretend everyone is shocked by it or saw none of it coming. You had the choice between someone who would probably flip-flop on some issues and someone who was firmly set on "flop" on every issue from the beginning.

Some things were kind of obvious, but I didn't think he'd change his Dove stance so quickly for example. I also don't really think he's doing it out of personal interest, in that case it's likely other bigger actors.

Also, non-millionaire presidents are no bit better and trusting them is just as stupid. Blair, Schröder, Sarkozy, they all talk openly about just milking their position to rise into the ranks of the money elite.

>> No.9501754

Also, look at our new situationist art. Tim and Eric, Sam Hyde. Definitely not meaningful. Just nihilistic and cynical. I'll take my tacky old books and religions over that junk any time of day.

>> No.9501758

>>9501744
its the opposite of bourgeoisie, the SI wanted everyone to make "everyday art" and to bring art out of the museum and into life. they want to turn it from spectating to being participatory and extended to everyone.

and while adorno might be a classicist snob (even if he denies this too, it IS debatable) his critique is also non-bourgeois

>> No.9501760

>>9501503
fuckin libtards on twitter set immigration policy, cuck. even before twitter, it was feminists who opened the borders, not the political and economic class who actually run shit, cuck

>> No.9501770

You mean like all that "outsider" art and writing made almost exclusively by rich kids (true to this day)? Gimme a break.

Even Deleuze and Guattari in AO said that they aren't looking for REAL schizophrenia.

>> No.9501774

>>9501758
All that stuff is made by rich kids, for rich adults. Definitely bourgeois.

>> No.9501783

>>9501770
>>9501774

no. why dont you actually read the SI instead of making vague generalizations as to what im referring to?

>> No.9501794

>>9501774
Recuperated, sure. But when I think of detournement I'm not thinking of Banksy

>> No.9501803

>>9501754
I think there's more meaning in Sam Hyde's vertical vids about the despair and uselessness of growing up an atomised millenial than any uptopian shit that drowns popular culture about the wonder of fucking VR, Globalisation and "flexible career opportunities"

>WHOAH! WHOAH MY SON! HES A GENIUS! HE FIXED UP MY COMPUTER LIKE THAT! YOU SHOULD'VE SEEN HIM, IT WAS LIKE MAGIC! JUST YOU WAIT AND SEE! HES GONNA GROW UP TO BE A BIG, IMPORTANT MAN!

>> No.9501807

>>9501783

Snooty prick.

>The production of commodities, which implies the exchange of a variety of products among independent producers, was long able to retain an artisanal aspect embodied in a marginal economic activity where its quantitative essence was masked.
>p. 27
Ohhhhh, I see. So we should get rid of technology! Like, drive around in those cars, and eat all that food that outsider artists make!

>they still must be liberated from their liberators
>p. 28
Well, that wouldn't be necessary if things had been done right the first time around, now would it?

Back to the Republic.

>> No.9501815

>>9501803
Sam Hyde has issues. He's wallowing in his own filth. Very sad. The guy should grow up a little.

Got a problem with culture? Try to fix it. Don't throw a tantrum and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

>> No.9501816

>>9501484
>>blame shadow entities

Is exactly what Debord does.

>Secrecy dominates this world, and first and foremost as the secret of domination. According to the spectacle, secrecy would only be a necessary exception to the rule of freely available, abundant information, just as domination in the integrated spectacle’s ‘free world’ would be restricted to a mere executive body in the service of democracy. But no one really believes the spectacle. How then do spectators accept the existence of secrecy which alone rules out any chance of their running a world of whose principal realities they know nothing, in the unlikely event that they were to be asked how to set about it? The fact is that almost no
one sees secrecy in its inaccessible purity and its functional universality. Everyone accepts that there are inevitably little areas of secrecy reserved for specialists; as regards things in general, many believe they are in on the secret.

>As to the rising number of assassinations over the last two decades (Kennedy, Aldo Moro, Olaf Palme, ministers and bankers, a pope or two, some others who were worth more than all of them) which have remained completely unsolved -- for, while the odd supernumerary has been sacrificed, there has never been any question of apprehending those who hold the purse strings -- their serial character shows a common hallmark: the blatant, and variable, lies of official statements.

>The ubiquitous growth of secret societies and networks of influence answers the imperative demand of the new conditions for profitable management of economic affairs, at a time when the state holds a hegemonic role in the direction of production and when demand for all commodities depends strictly on the centralization achieved by spectacular information/promotion, to which forms of distribution must also adapt.

>As regards the concentrated side, the controlling center has now become occult, never to be occupied by a known leader, or clear ideology. And on the diffuse side, the spectacular influence has never before put its mark to such a degree on almost the totality of socially produced behavior and objects. For the final sense of the integrated spectacular is that it integrates itself into reality to the same extent that it speaks of it, and that it reconstructs it as it speaks. As a result, this reality no longer confronts the integrated spectacle as something alien. When the spectacle was concentrated, the greater part of surrounding society escaped it; when diffuse, a small part; today, no part. The spectacle has spread itself to the point where it now permeates all reality. It was easy to predict in theory what has been quickly and universally demonstrated by practical experience of economic reason’s relentless accomplishments: that the globalisation of the false was also the falsification of the globe.

>> No.9501817

>>9501807
Outsider artists is like literally the exact opposite of SI. That's putting shit back in the gallery

>> No.9501827

>>9501807
lol yep thats EXACTLY what they mean. you definitely read that in earnest

>> No.9501833

>>9501817

>Outsider artists the opposite of SI.

Do tell.

>> No.9501834

>>9501816
to be fair OP said shadow entities with no agency

>> No.9501835

>>9501827
Wow! So snarky! So clever!

Where are your arguments, hipster.

>> No.9501837

>>9501816
debord denies those entities agency.

>> No.9501844

>>9501833
Like I said, putting shit back in the gallery, qualifying otherness by the art world, which in a sense makes artefacts out of 'dead art' to be viewed out of curiosity for the bizarre, and aggrandizes the person who discovered the outside artist. Where are the parallels to self-identified Situationists in the 60s?

>> No.9501847

>>9501815
Who doesn't? If you can afford therepy then good for you

It's the naivety of this those still stuck in 20th century politics of an "ideologicaly pure" left/right dicotomy who are in denial of what is happening, as if we can somehow return to some idealised simple past of worker/ethno-states. They are often doing to work of their enemies for them. Hyde is a fool, but his lampoon of the modern is too painful for such "progressive s" to swallow. The radical notion that time is not linear and man is awash in the wave of its epoch is probably too devastating to acknowledge

>> No.9501856
File: 94 KB, 501x585, gramsci.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9501856

>every single intellectual and artist is a communis, many of them university-educated, so they are familiar with the work of Gramsci and Marcuse
>"it's capitalism faults, goyim"

If media was motivated by only profit, they wouldn't cancel popular shows (like "Last Man Standing", or the rural purge of the 1970s) and promote promiscuity and degeneracy even though it draw less viewers.

No, what is put in the media is decided by the staff, not by the owner, and the staff is Marxist, because it is educated at Marxist universities.

>> No.9501858

>>9501856
>Marxist universities

Most people go to university to study law or business or accounting or some shit

>If media was motivated by only profit

? Maybe you want to give OP post another read

>> No.9501861

>>9501844
Is that a rhetorical question? If it's not, I suggest you answer it yourself, to re-educate this poor ole peasant...

Andy Warhol was pretty cool. At least he formed the Velvet Underground! Anyway, I don't have a problem with outsider art. In fact I think it should get more attention than it does.

I just think that the people who want to use these concepts to apply to every level of society are either batshit crazy or trying to start up a new marketing strategy.

>> No.9501865

>>9501861
not the guy you're replying to, but you are fucking retarded

>> No.9501872

>>9501856
marxism has been co-opted by manegerial liberalism and produces artificial negativity (race, gender, marxist, academic theoretizing) to quell and channel dissatisfaction away from the elite

>> No.9501874

>>9501865
Tell that to my face cocksucker

>> No.9501879

>>9501861
It seems what you're describing is recuperation of radical ideas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics) which isn't the point of Situationism, in fact the opposite

>> No.9501883

>>9501847
Generally, ethics are the best kind of therapy. Examining one's own priorities. Trying to become the kind of person one can feel happy about. That's free, and will always be so.

The fact that time may not be linear does not mean that Sam Hyde understands what modernity is. Modernity and postmodernity were always myths. They're convenient indexing terms for academics.

>> No.9501896

>>9501847
>that time is not linear
It's not exactly that - I think a more accurate statement would be that there's no teleology to history despite its tendencies.

>> No.9501901
File: 19 KB, 225x316, HegSoc.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9501901

>>9501872
Identity politics is meant to unify different disaffected groups in an united front against the elite. The managerial elite who thinks they are in control will soon be surprised.

And it's not me saying it, it's Marxist intellectuals themselves.

>> No.9501904

>>9501896
the messiah might come through that door anytime...

>> No.9501913

Was Warhol not a situationist? If so, why not?

>> No.9501918

>>9501503
Multiculturalism is going on with money forcefully taken from people and companies.
Without this socialism it would be more modest and not this twisted shit seen now.
I don't think /pol/ is generally against economic globalism that much, it depends on the actual case.
Media and politicians ain't really shadow entities, there is something like 300-1000 persons in the world, that really pull any strings that count.

>>9501699
Well, starting from ground zero would leave the whining lazy commies as poor as they are or even worse. There are reasons why some people don't have success on work/business.

>> No.9501919

>>9501913
please stop posting

>> No.9501923

>>9501503
>the multiculturalism they hate is also the result of capitalism.

So what you're saying is that Leftists parties are actually capitalist?

Because everyone all the way from the Communist Party to the centre-right are for mass-immigration in my country, with the exception of the parties on the far-right.

So it can't simply be about capitalism. It's far more likely to me that it's about an extremely idealistic form of internationalism.

>> No.9501928

>>9501919
I was probbs one of the few that would have been willing to have a conversation with you. Enjoy getting crushed by "reactionaries".

>> No.9501935

>>9501883
Sam doesn't understand modernity but he can reflect it's pure ugliness in mimicry. He's not an intellectual, but his finger is on the pulse of the malaise of our generation. Your perspective is essentially "just be yourself and your be happy" which is no different from mainstream reactive therepy for making people better operate within the constraints of modern society

>> No.9501938

>>9501484
Tbh I just don't want niggers, Asians or sandies in my country. I don't really care if you destroy capitalism senpai.

>> No.9501943

>>9501935
>Your perspective is essentially "just be yourself and your be happy" which is no different from mainstream reactive therepy for making people better operate within the constraints of modern society

Try Plato, Aristotle, Aurelius, Hegel, Fichte, Seneca, Plotinus, Proclus, Kant, or whatever. Even Lacan, to a small degree. Things have always been difficult. Some folks have come up with ideas about how to deal with it. Equating this with cheap self-hypnosis is profoundly misguided.

Nice straw man though.

>> No.9501944

>>9501923
>So what you're saying is that Leftists parties are actually capitalist?
Cronies maybe, (mostly even?)

>> No.9501945

>>9501928
sorry i thought you were trolling.

but seriously, just read the SI. if you read the SI you would know warhol is literally their antithesis

>> No.9501946

>>9501543
>>9501543
>deconstructionalism
that's not really a world, and moral relativism is older than Marx, it's an older concept than fucking "Europe" probably

>> No.9501949

>>9501923
>it's about an extremely idealistic form of internationalism.
It's about thinking: If everyone is equal and as worthy as anyone else - maybe I can be too. (which often is not the case)

>> No.9501954

>>9501944
I think it's more likely that a lot of powerful people support destroying national homogeneity through immigration such that nationalism cannot rise again with any credibility.

>> No.9501958

>>9501503

It was that way initially, but that is no longer the case. Right now, in 2017, multiculturalism is fully advocated by socialists in order to get votes. They know it's hard for native whites to vote for socialist policies, so they have to import immigrants. The modern left completely goes against the "socialism for our people" system and instead advocates for multicultural socialism

>> No.9501966

>>9501954
This is a poor conspiracy theory. Politicians these days can barely wipe their own butts, much less orchestrate something crazy like that.

Immigration has always been and will always be. There was actually a lot more of it in the more "traditional" times. British, for example, are actually a mix of romans, norse, celtic, and anglo

>> No.9501967

>>9501484

You write like such a typical Marxist, a bunch of vague abstractions with no actual solid thought. Nowhere in your post is there a single meaningful statement.

>> No.9501968

>>9501954
Maybe they're both. (though small league and pure losers tend to be more into cronyism/looting)

>> No.9501970

>>9501815
>Very sad. he should grow up a little

he says as he mimics the verbal tick/mannerism of his god emperor

>> No.9501972

>>9501966
It's different kind of immigration now, especially in Europe - where 98% of them are leeches living on other peoples work.

>> No.9501974

>>9501966
Well there's literally nothing to "orchestrate" about it other than having lax immigration laws and inviting a lot of people from third-world countries.

It doesn't need to be a conspiracy theory to be a policy, which it has been for at least 40 years.

>> No.9501976

>>9501966

If a government was fully committed to severely limiting immigration, they could easily do it. Many countries today do it. The US did it until 1965.

It's dumb to assume that the status quo right now is inevitable. It's really not. Countries in East Asia and East Europe are doing what the West could be doing. Japan is over 98% Japanese. Poland is over 94% Polish. And they want to keep it that way.

Orchestrating mass immigration into the West, is actually far more complicated than blocking it.

>> No.9501978

>>9501970
>Defending Sam Hyde, Trump Supporter, while mocking me, not a Trump supporter, for talking like him.

This is getting too ironic for me.

>> No.9501983

>>9501966
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdFzMLZAXEM&t

>> No.9501994

>>9501972
Well, you and I are probably going to be leeches too, in the near future. I've heard figures that say 50% of jobs will be replaced by technology in 20 years.

>>9501974
It's called being a decent human being. At least in the U.S., most of us came here to escape lousy conditions: potato famine, religious persecution, etc. The least we can do is pay it forward.

>> No.9501999

>>9501913
Nah, he had similar ASSUMPTIONS but his conclusions were the complete opposite. When the SI preaches everyday life, they're preaching a new life, new systems and forms of organization shall take place and they'll allow any individual to live it's life to the fullest, the way he wants it. When Warhol preaches everyone'll be an artist, he's assuming a sort of acceleration of our life, media will become so ubiquitous everyone will TRY to get their 15 minutes.

Sadly, Warhol ended up being right - for now.

>> No.9502000

>>9501994
>It's called being a decent human being

Bitch please. There's nothing called a "decent human being".

>> No.9502002
File: 44 KB, 674x927, 16729447_10155001691811649_231751165729165615_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9502002

>>9501944
dude, please tell me it's not the first time you're realizing american politics as a whole are necessarily right wing only different degrees of it.

>> No.9502007

>>9502000
>There's nothing called a "decent human being".

Edgelord detected.

>> No.9502016

>>9502007
Regardless of me being an edgelord, politics shouldn't be ruled by pathos argumentation that 12 year old girls use.

>> No.9502018

>>9501994

Why do people living in America have an obligation to take in more people, though? It's not like the original European explorers just lived in Native American towns, went to their schools and used their healthcare. They built their own societies in North America from the ground up.

Why should we be willing to decrease our influence, in our own country, to the benefit of outsiders?

>> No.9502025

>>9501994
I'm an entrepreneur, and gonna try and stay as one. I do not want help from government or anyone else - only trade with people willing to do so.
Being a decent human being should mean not bothering others. That is not the case with todays majority of immigrants.
If one wants to move somewhere to get better life, one should work ones way up there.

>> No.9502036

>>9502018
If America doesn't want to take refugees and immigrants in, they should should stop de-stabilizing every rising power, staging coups and arming terrorist organizations.

>> No.9502041

>>9502002
I'm not an American and not talking only about America. And no - the "left" is even more money-hungry thatn the "evil" capitalists. (and they def. are not willing to work for it - that's why commie country=slave work, every time)

>> No.9502051

>>9502041
>commie country=slave work

Are you seriously implying there is no slave work under capitalism? I'm not even talking about then, I'm talking about now, right now, do you think Qatar is not a capitalist country? South-american farmers are not in capitalist countries?

>> No.9502056

>>9502036
This is also true. Even stopping dumping shitloads of guns n ammo every day in random countries could help.

>> No.9502063

>>9502025
you'll be one of the first against the wall

>> No.9502071

>>9502051
It's mostly a "false-capitalism" or crony-capitalism. Even in USA there is no real capitalism right now, Fake-capitalism almost = Fake-Socialism.
Definition of Capitalism would require that every side of the deal does it willingly.

>> No.9502084

>>9502071
So, you're now saying that capitalism can never truly exist? Because I have YEARS of being yelled MUH SCOTSMAN by retards trying to pretend stalinism was the only possible outcome of communism and I'd love to start the payback.

>> No.9502085

>>9502063
No, I am the one who builds the wall, the guns and produce the ammo - and dig the hole, push the corpse in there and cover it, then rebuild and keep going.

>> No.9502093

>>9502084
Of course it can. It does. With me and my fellow-traders. But government is doing everything they can to make it difficult.
We are rare, I give you that.

>> No.9502096

>>9502093
See, I get your point, but here's something you should give some reflexion: what if the government ABSOLUTELY allows capitalism to exist to some dude and his fellow traders, you're just not meant to be one of said traders.

>> No.9502098

>>9502085
Also:
>lazy people thinking they can put anyone against walls

>> No.9502102

>>9501938

This. I don't care if it makes me a brainlet, I'd rather be poor and still feel like I'm in my own country.

>> No.9502103

>>9502096
Yes that IS how it goes right now. Cronyism/fake-capitalism.

>> No.9502106

>>9502103
But the point is: why do you think this is fake? It seems pretty in line with what capitalism believes, while leninism, maoism and etc. always created theory around them precisely to protect itself against the revolutionary movements wich it superceded.

>> No.9502112

>>9502102
There's nothing wrong being poor, as long as one doesn't leach off anyone.

>> No.9502116

Right-wingers form their position on the basis of idealism - they imagine that groups with specific belief systems and individual agencies cause the material degradation of society. This obfuscation ultimately leads them to adopt ever more crazy conspiracy theories to explain their gripes with society. /pol/ is an extreme example of this, but all right-wing ideologies follow similar patterns.
If you look at their fundamental assumptions, there is always a primordial, stable, organic system (traditional society / the market etc.) which is threatened by outside forces which ruin its stability. This narrative has been obviously blown out of the water ever since Marx, but it will not go away by means of education and ideological warfare alone. To meaningfully counter the apologia of exploitative structures means challenging their material foundations ; this is the historical materialist worldview which is crucial for any social movement that hopes to succeed.

>> No.9502128

>>9502106
Government helps/handouts, billions of regulations, taxes, everything. All pure stealing from people who actually do something, produce something - and giving for bums and "good-fellows".

>> No.9502142

>>9502116
Man, Marxism really makes retarded people seem smarter than they really are.

>> No.9502151

>>9502128
He said, writing on a government-invented Internet, being alive thanks to a government-mandated health care system, knowing how to spell thanks to a government-forced teaching system, live in a stable society thanks to a government monopoly on violence etc. pp.
Libertarians are weird, they're like plants who say they grew tall without water.

>> No.9502177

>>9502151
In my country the people would stay calm with or without police. Military might (and has been ) needed though.
Government education was and is shit. I learned to spell, read and write before school anyways.
Government did not invent internet. Maybe this technology would of come sooner, maybe later without it. Healthcare is not working here, I use private.
Libertarianism works in non-niggerian countries/populations/areas.
Government does everything it can to make it harder to get money for them to steal..

>> No.9502184

>>9502142
Nice argument. Do you have any devastating critiques of materialism to share, or are you going to continue masturbating to your Enlightened ethnonationalist boards?

>> No.9502202

>>9502177
..and to add: everything government HAS done right (or close) has been done with the money it has taken from us, after making it near impossible to make it in the first hand, especially if one doesn't belong in some "clique" or "win" some subsidies.

>> No.9502204

>>9502151
Don't forget about the roads

>> No.9502205

>>9501484
what you guys think about these two books?
friedrich georg jünger- the failure of technology
oswald spengler- man and technics

>> No.9502212

>>9502204
There are more private-roads here than you would believe. And I can personally build roads lower cost and better quality than government does.

>> No.9502214

>>9502184
Well first of all, Marxist historicism is retarded and historicism in general has been destroyed several times by philosophers ranging from Nietzsche to Karl Popper.

Secondly, the Marxist definition of exploitation is absolutely ridiculous, because trade is never a zero-sum game.

So, yes, I have 2 devastating critiques. History does not have any determinism, and Marxist exploitation literally is false.

>> No.9502217

>>9502151
Libertarians are just anarcho-capitalists in denial, their ideology is batshit insanity. Countries with the most satisfied populations all have an expansive public sector, emphasis on collective bargaining and corporate regulation to mitigate the most damaging aspects of market economies. Nobody in their right mind is a libertarian, if these people had their say you wouldn't even have free access to public libraries.

>> No.9502232

>>9501923
>Because everyone all the way from the Communist Party to the centre-right are for mass-immigration in my country, with the exception of the parties on the far-right.
Because they want to rescue third-worlders from imperialist exploitation by welcoming them to wealthy countries.

>> No.9502234

>>9502212
Which country are you describing? Are we supposed to guess or are you making things up?

Also, the reason why this thread is operating on the pretense of being in the USA is because the scale of land/people/economy is so much larger than a majority of other nations. We are one of the nations that needs to step forward into a new future past our failing "capitalist" system, not try to resuscitate it.

>> No.9502240

>>9502232
E.g an extremely idealistic form of internationalism.

>> No.9502245

>>9502217
Anarcho-capitalism, I believe would mean violating other peoples right to be left alone without bothering them.
http://www.working-minds.com/money.htm

>> No.9502246

>>9502240
In the sense of wanting to abolish nations, yes. To Communists, nations are bourgeois fictions used to exclude victims of imperialist exploitation from the developed world.

>> No.9502251

>>9502214
Have you actually read Karl Marx, or did you just skim the wikipedia and a few hyperlinks? It's hilarious that you think you have "2 devastating critiques" when you have 2 thoughts that basically come down to "I don't understand what Marx means"

>> No.9502254

>>9502234
Your system only "fails" because too much socialism and crooked banking. And lazy fat retards.

>> No.9502256

>>9502116
>marxism is not idealist

>> No.9502258

>>9502214
Popper is full of shit and ascribes a one-way economic determinism to Marx, which he never developed in the first place. I've seen of a bunch of these refutations written by "experts" who have obviously never even read or understood elementary Marxist positions, instead relying on Soviet philosophers. His positivism is also laughably antiquated. Look up the paper "Popper's Double Standard of Scientificy in Critizing Marxism"

>> No.9502260

>>9502256
marxism is explicitly materialist you twat

>> No.9502263

>>9501484
LOL no, fuck off. The poltards are indeed idiots but you communist scum are just as bad. We've seen what happens when fascists get a hold of power, and we've also seen what happens when your kind gets a hold of power. No thanks.

>> No.9502288
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9502288

>>9502263
>muh horseshoe theory
>can't we all just be centrists :)
You are disgusting desu

>> No.9502289

>>9502251
>You have no arguments, so I'm going to respond by asking you the most inane non-argument possible

Good job.

>> No.9502292

>>9502288
Except that's not what he said.

Ironically though, centrists don't use state power to murder it's own citizens and start imperialistic wars, so in that sense they will always be superior to the likes of you.

>> No.9502297

>>9502288
I'm not saying that fascism and communism are similar (although in some ways they certainly are) - I'm saying that they're equally bad.
As for centrism, that's a rather broad term. Am I advocating "centrism"? Depends what you mean by it. I advocate gradual reform of existing Western society rather than mass revolutionary change. I oppose fascism and communism. I like liberal democracy and think that modern Western society is probably the best large-scale society that has ever existed. Make of that what you will. However, the facts are on my side. On your side are piles of corpses.

>> No.9502311

>>9502292
>centrists
>don't start imperialistic wars
HAHAHAHA

You fucking idiot, it's almost always the Social Democratic opportunists who support the most bloody conflicts when socialists want real change. Read some history, like maybe World War One.

>> No.9502312

>>9502254
No, our system failed because we went from 13 loose colonies to a global economic and military superpower. We have hundreds of millions of people living here and the most advanced medicine and living conditions to keep them alive longer. For some people, well past usefulness but what exactly is your solution to these "socialist" systems such as Social Security and Medicare? Begin euthanizing people?

>> No.9502318
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9502318

>>9502311
>SocDems caused world war 1

>> No.9502329

>>9502025
>I don't want help from the government

What happens if someone really violent and threatening tries to take over your business by force? What about people stealing from you?

I guess you'll probably just band up with your buddies and try to work things out, won't you? That sounds a lot like a government. In fact, that's how governments work. They're not inherently bad, as long as there is proper representation for all groups. If groups go underrepresented, revolution ensues.

>>9502018
>It's not like the original European explorers just lived in Native American towns, went to their schools and used their healthcare. They built their own societies in North America from the ground up.

LOL. They built their societies in the U.S. by literally STEALING land from the natives, corralling them up, etc.

Merely asking for healthcare and a living wage (what modern immigrants usually do) is far less demanding.

>>9502260
Aaaaaaand that's why we shouldn't trust anything he says. Any philosopher who claims to be an materialist is like a mechanic who claims to be a surgeon.

>> No.9502364

>>9502329
>What happens if someone really violent and threatening tries to take over your business by force? What about people stealing from you?
I'd like to see that. Really, I would!
Only one stealing from is is the government.

And why always so extreme? Yeah, police and some laws are nice. But regulations are way too multiple and taxes at least over 50% too high. Too high compared what we get from/with them.