Certainly, this man and his Solar Cycle have the capacity to go memecore. Why hasn't it already gone memecore? Would /lit/ like this guy if he went memecore?

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Anonymous Thu Jul 30 11:33:16 2015 No.6902871 [Reply] [Original]

Certainly, this man and his Solar Cycle have the capacity to go memecore. Why hasn't it already gone memecore? Would /lit/ like this guy if he went memecore?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 11:35:44 2015 No.6902885 >>6902871 The books are literally too good for popular culture to get its claws into them. There is actual artistry at work, unlike Game of Memes

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 11:41:26 2015 No.6902910 >>6902885 Well I like them myself, and while I agree the narrative is very intricate and the man has a beautiful way of presenting the mind of the main character, and the books are still entertaining enough for anyone to get into them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 11:41:36 2015 No.6902911 >rape

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 11:51:04 2015 No.6902951 >>6902871 youre kidding yourself if you dont think he is already memecore. ive seen his face face posted on this board a million times and not one discussion about the work itself. every time you make a thread like this, you are trivializing the artist

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 11:51:55 2015 No.6902953 >>6902951 >not one discussion about the work itself Well you didn't look that hard.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 11:53:52 2015 No.6902962 People have been forcing Meme Wolfe for fucking months OP. You should know this, you're of them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 11:56:45 2015 No.6902971 >>6902951 New Sun is one of the very few things that DO get actually discussed on here, and rather often

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 12:30:59 2015 No.6903135 >>6902951 Confirmed for not reading through Wolfe threads.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 12:31:47 2015 No.6903142 >memecore I just don't know what this means

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 12:43:15 2015 No.6903206 Wolfe will always be a forced meme compared to the actual meme trinity. The forced meme trinity is something like McCarthy, Wolfe, and Tao Lin.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 12:59:32 2015 No.6903256 >>6903206 >the actual meme trinity. TFW Wolfe is better than Pinecone and DeeEffDubleyou

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 13:03:47 2015 No.6903273 >>6903256 DFW is pure excrement compared to based Wolfe.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 13:09:00 2015 No.6903296 >>6902871 >genre shit >memecore fuck off, only plens read that trash

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 13:20:23 2015 No.6903347 >>6903296 Confirmed for never having read Wolfe.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 13:30:02 2015 No.6903407 >>6903296 >plens go back to /mu/, plebeian scum

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:26:59 2015 No.6903874 In Sword of the Lictor, can someone explain why was baldanders hostile to severian? Why did they start fighting?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:28:54 2015 No.6903880 >>6903296 Head back to starbucks with your vinyls /mu/scum

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:30:59 2015 No.6903888 >>6903874 Have you finished the entire Book of the New Sun?

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:35:29 2015 No.6903902

>>6903874

Baldanders is in the process of turning himself into an undine. He sides with Erebus and Abaia against Severian because he correctly recognizes him as the New Sun who will bring a great deluge to earth, effectively wiping the earth clean of all intelligent life (including Baldanders) and thereby killing Baldanders. Baldanders lusts for immortality and power and Severian poses the biggest threat to his continued quest for power. The dream sequences towards the beginning of Shadow (I think the Baldanders chapter and two or three subsequent chapters...I don't have a copy of Shadow in front of me right now) indicate that Baldanders knows who Severian is and what his destiny is, even more so than Severian does. He even makes a comment about him knowing why he had a particular dream due to Severian's presence. Baldanders and Severian's fight is foreshadowed at least two times, possibly more, (in Severian's dream where the puppet theatre show shows puppet Severiand nad puppet Baldanders fighting and in Dr. Talos' play).

If you haven't already, you should re-read the series. Things become a lot more clear on a second reading.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:38:12 2015 No.6903908 >>6903888 no >>6903902 Are these spoilers from the last book? If so thanks but I wont read that

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:40:18 2015 No.6903912 File: 58 KB, 622x626, 1425828985512.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6903296

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:42:27 2015 No.6903917 >>6903908 >Are these spoilers from the last book? They are spoilers from Sword, so if you haven't finished it yet, you should wait to read the spoilers. If you have finished it, nothing will be spoiled as nothing from Citadel is in the spoiler.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:42:44 2015 No.6903920 >>6903908 the finish the book because the answer is a spoiler upon rereading it will made even more clear

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:44:53 2015 No.6903924 >>6903902 I don't thin that's exactly right. Baldanders wants to be the New Sun, only choosing to be an undine after realizing Severian's future success (when the Hierodules bow to him)

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:45:12 2015 No.6903926 >>6903917 I've finished sword, I don't see how I could get all that from this book. What shows that he's seeking immortality and sees Severian as something that will stop it?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:47:31 2015 No.6903934 >>6903926 That's because most of it relies on you finishing the entirety of New Sun and understanding the events to come.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 15:59:53 2015 No.6903984

>>6903924

I've heard this theory before. I think Borski might be the purveyor of it...but I don't necessarily agree with it.

We really don't have any indication that Baldanders has any intention of becoming the New Sun . Of course, things would be a lot more clear if we knew exactly where Baldanders came from and what exactly he wants..but all we have is what Severian chooses to tell us. It is interesting, though, that Eschatology and Genesis is often attributed to Dr. Talos. Of course, this begs the question that if Talos is Baldanders' Homonculus then was it not Baldanders who developed the play and programmed Talos to present it as his own?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 16:06:48 2015 No.6904014 >>6903934 Yeah, that's what I thought. Also I didn't really understand when the castle of baldanders was built and what was his relation to the shore and lake people.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 16:16:25 2015 No.6904064

>>6903984
I can't recall if it's Borski or not. If it is I'd be surprised, though, because it's a considerably tamer idea than his usual ramblings.

I'm going to read the sections that deal with it again in a few minutes. I might be mistaken in remembering the exact sequence of dialogues that occur between Severian and Famulimus before ol Baldanders flips his lid.

I've never really considered the authorship of Eschatology and Genesis, though. Always kind of agreed without thinking about it that it was Dr. Talos's play but what you propose makes sense.

I should probably read that again too, as it reveals more on the nature of Baldanders/Nod.

>>6904014
I forget the exact span of time, if it's ever given. Many years, I'd say. Several decades even.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 16:17:04 2015 No.6904069

>>6904014
>Also I didn't really understand when the castle of baldanders was built and what was his relation to the shore and lake people.

Baldanders needs to be near water because he eventually would have become so large that the weight of his own form will become too much for his skeletal frame to hold. The idea was that once he reached a certain size, he would retreat to the water (and probably the ocean) so that his frame wouldn't be strained by gravity and would be sustainable. He would have essentially become an undine. As for his relationship with the lake people, he needed them and used them for his various vivisections and experiments which he utilized to perfect his own self-growth. Baldanders is the one who transforms Jolenta from a normal waitress into a woman of almost grotesque beauty.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 16:20:46 2015 No.6904093 >>6902971 This, Wolfe threads usually have 100-250 posts of actual discussion of the narrative, themes, theories about the work and so on. >>6903206 But his face makes the perfect meme.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 16:28:13 2015 No.6904125 >>6903984 >>6904064 Ah yes, it's because of the lines, "Severian will be the victor," said by Baldanders. He goes on to say, "Else why did they kneel to him? Though he may die, and we may not."

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 16:28:17 2015 No.6904127 >>6902951 >shitposts about how no one actually discusses the work itself >thread ends up talking at length about the text itself. You are the cancer killing /lit/.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 16:36:08 2015 No.6904153

>>6904125
>Ah yes, it's because of the lines, "Severian will be the victor," said by Baldanders.

Right, but this indicates to me that Baldanders knows he will be defeated by Severian, not necessarily that Baldanders wishes to 'win' the claim to the New Sun. You could read it in a way which would indicate Baldanders wishes to become the New Sun, but I'm not entirely convinced myself, though I do concede that the theory has some teeth to it.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 16:44:18 2015 No.6904170

>>6904153
I agree that it can be read that way too (except I still think the kneeling part is indicative of the New Sun angle, else why mention it immediately after?). And I don't believe either of the options really changes much, they both lead to the same conclusion at the end of the work.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 16:54:58 2015 No.6904207 >>6904064 It is Borski. Here's a link to the article. http://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10016%22

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:06:21 2015 No.6904264

>>6903902
Abaia and the undines survive the New Sun. Severians sees one when he's swimming around after the deluge. Also, if Abaia is at war with the Commonwealth, why are boats even allowed on the Gryoll? The only threat to the Commonwealth seems to be the Ascians hordes. My theory is that Abaia is in fact working for the New Sun, in opposition to Erebus. Erebus wants the sun to die so his ice empire spans all of Urth, for some reason.

So, like everything in New Sun, the fight with Baldanders is a set up. To make Severian believe himself a hero, to further the programming of Severian. Baldanders was going to end up in the sea anyhow. As Severian says himself, the battle with the giant was his first battle of the war, all a set up to put Severian on the course of his destiny.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:14:53 2015 No.6904308 File: 183 KB, 573x1116, what.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Post great reviews of book of the new sun

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:18:34 2015 No.6904335

>>6904264
>Abaia and the undines survive the New Sun.
Is that true? I don't remember it. Pretty sure they all died.
> Also, if Abaia is at war with the Commonwealth, why are boats even allowed on the Gryoll?
Because they can defend the river? They clearly have massive armies and reasonable to assume people guarding the entrane.
> As Severian says himself, the battle with the giant was his first battle of the war, all a set up to put Severian on the course of his destiny.
I could never get into all the determinism and puppeteering attributed to Wolfe in New and Long Sun. Severian has too much agency for it, even if certain key events are engeneered.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:20:36 2015 No.6904342

>>6904308
>This is a review of all 4 novels in the series Book of the New Sun by Gene Wofle.
When talking about this book I often don't know where to start. Do I want to say first and foremost that it has an amazing setting? Do I want to say that Severian, the protagonist, is an immensly complex character whose perspective adds layers upon layers to the book? Do I want to praise the prose which perfectly recreates in its reader what Wolfe had imagined? I cannot stress enough how great this book is. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.
It's a scence fiction novel with a fantasy aesthetic brought forward by the way it was written, first person memoir by a man living in a society that was once ruling the stars, but has now crumbled and technology to an uneducated mind is the same as magic. When we are talking about the perspective I want to point out that the book does not, in any moment, spoon-feed you, it gives you hundreds of hints because Severian sometimes tells you what he saw and understood, sometimes he lies and somethimes he has no idea of what is even going on. This is one of the most entertaining elements of the story, you are creating a puzzle of ten thousand pieces. As you read and if you are paying attenting something that may have seemed nonsensical can create a picture that will blow your mind, because the book is finely interwowen and even the most trivial things connect to larger elements of the story.
But Wolfe isn't just a master in creating a mistery, he is a master in writing characters. They are all people who are products of their, to us, very alien society. They cannot exist anywhere else. They have complexes that arise from particular problems of their every day life, they value virtues that we may deem inhuman, they do not notice thigs that would to us be something incredible as something strange.
But in all this the most notable element that I would put forward as his greatest achivement is Severian. A character who goes on a journey from his guild to the city of Thrax and beyond as an exile. We see him grow from a very naive young man full of lust and desire for redemption to a man who has been through almost everything.

All in all The Book of the New Sun is one of the best books I have ever read and I would easily pick it over many other masterpieces and classics because it is something that stays with you for years to come.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:22:58 2015 No.6904354 File: 1.29 MB, 2336x1324, blablablamisogyny.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I don't even know what to say about this shit so I'd be glad if someone has the words to describe how much of a faggot this guy is.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:23:17 2015 No.6904360

>>6904308
>Wolfe has an almost legendary status amongst fellow authors; Gaiman called him 'a ferocious intellect', Swanwick said he's "the greatest writer in the English language alive today", and Disch called this series "a tetralogy of couth, intelligence, and suavity".

You can rarely trust the popular market to single out good authors, but you'd think it might be safe to listen to the opinions of other writers (especially an assemblage of Nebula and Hugo winners in their own right). I will give his fans one concession: Wolfe is an author who defies expectations. Unfortunately, I was expecting him to be remarkable and interesting.

This book had been sitting on my shelf for months, along with other highly-praised works I've been looking forward to, but I bade my time, waiting for the mood to strike. Few live up to their reputation, but most at least deliver part of the promise.

I would expect any author mentioned in the same breath as Peake to have an original and vibrant style, but I found Wolfe's writing to be simple without being elegant. His language and structure serves its purpose, only occasionally rising above mere utilitarianism, and then he rushes to florid flourishes that fall flat as often as they succeed. Sometimes, it is downright dull. The prose of the second book is stronger than the first, but its plot and characters are more linear and predictable.

I appreciated his 'created language' more than most fantasy authors, but I didn't find it particularly mysterious or difficult, because all of his words are based on recognizable Germanic or Romantic roots. Then again, after three years of writing stories about Roman whores in Latin, I had little problem with 'meretriculous'. Even those words I wasn't familiar with seemed clear by their use.

We've all read this shitty review, fuck you Keely, you ignorant fucking plebian

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:24:07 2015 No.6904364 >>6904207 Oh hey that's probably where I got it from then. Surprised that I forgot, given that that's also where I take my interpretation of the Piteous Gate from. It's really the only thing Borski's written that I agree with, I guess.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:27:09 2015 No.6904378

>>6904354
>>6904360
I remember a thread about a year ago where Keely essentially outed himself and was parading this review around as if it was worth something. He was summarily called out for his faggotry. I think he changed his Goodreads name a for a while after that. That dude is one narcissistic faggot.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:27:12 2015 No.6904379

>>6904335
Severian sees an undine when he is swimming underwater Nessus. Seeing as how over grown he describes Nessus its clearly farther into the future then when the delude happened. Why would flooding kill sea creatures?

The undines have complete freedom to swim up and down the Gryoll. One tempts Severian outside the House Absolute. And Baldanders swims from the lake down to Nessus, and survives far into the future to met Severian once he's back from Yesod. And Severian visits the delta and never mentions any military fleets or a fortress. If Abaia was at war with the Commonwealth Nessus would have been destroyed long ago, every boat drags down to the bottom of the water.

That Severian falsely believes himself master of his own destiny is part of the unreliable narrator theme. If someone was in complete control of your life, how would you even know?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:32:57 2015 No.6904401 >>6904378 His reviews are so fucking terrible Wish you had a link to that thread

pinky Thu Jul 30 17:37:48 2015 No.6904417

>>6904378
So do I, I firstly made a serious comment and then called him a huge plebian faggot.
>>6904379
>Why would flooding kill sea creatures?
It was I think much more violent than a simple flood, it was massive energy that could kill sea creatures like things like that can irl, too much sea current can kill them.
>The undines have complete freedom to swim up and down the Gryoll.
Aware of all that, read it twice, really Wolfe is my favourite author, read tons of his works. Anyway we seem to have this disscussion, I really shold get a name for these. They don't attact outright and are neutral while in the river. Guess that's why they let them go.
But you've got a point at them not being in an open war. They did want to stop the New Sun tho, that much is for certain.
>That Severian falsely believes himself master of his own destiny is part of the unreliable narrator theme. If someone was in complete control of your life, how would you even know?
He still has internal agency and Marc Aramini pointed it out, people forget Wolfe has free will as something integral to his worldview. Not denying Severian had his life largely shaped by the Angels, but it wouldn't have turned out as such if he himself had acted differently. You know, he wasn't the first to try and bring the new sun and he wasn't predetermined to do so just because. He got to do it because of his qualities and his changes. New Sun could have been given to anyone really, or at least I think it could have.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:40:55 2015 No.6904423 >>6904378 >>6904417 Can you elaborate on what makes his review shit?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:44:35 2015 No.6904437 >>6904354 >But compared to Leiber, Howard, Lovecraft, Dunsany, Eddison, Kipling, Haggard, Peake, Mieville, or Moorcock, Wolfe is nothing special. is this true

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:46:29 2015 No.6904443 >>6904437 Read them and make up your own mind.

pinky Thu Jul 30 17:53:33 2015 No.6904466

>>6904423
>Can you elaborate on what makes his review shit?
He missed every point Wolfe was trying to make.
For example he is too dense to realize how Wolfe is playing around with the "awesome dude in black with a big cool sword". Severian for one has relatively few open confrontations as it is hardly action packed, he loses or has a draw as often as he defeats his opponents. He is calls Wolfe out for being some kind of a misogynist because he wrote a character who is 18-19 and wants to have sex. After spending his life entirely around males. He doesn't understand the language. I could go on for the entire review, but it's too much work and I'm going to sleep anyway.
>>6904437
>But compared to Leiber, Howard, Lovecraft, Dunsany, Eddison, Kipling, Haggard, Peake, Mieville, or Moorcock, Wolfe is nothing special.
>is this true

Hardly. At least out of the ones I've read. Lovecraft is an author of spooky stories. Actually a spooky story because he wrote the same one 80 times with slightly varied elements in it. Some of it is really good like A Color Out of Space, but he lacks depth. Great as a pulp author, not much more.
Comparing a communist manchild moralist like Mieville to Wolfe is simply laughable.
The rest I haven't read, but from what I've heard aren't nearly as good as Wolfe. Will try them out eventually.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:57:02 2015 No.6904480

>4. To complicate matters further, there is a story underneath the story. Understanding that story, you will at last understand why Severian's journey is so long and why the incidents in it are so strange and seemingly incomprehensible. This story may not reveal itself at even a second reading.

What's he talking about?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:58:08 2015 No.6904488 >>6904401 >>/lit/thread/S4926349#p4940019

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 17:59:28 2015 No.6904496

>>6904466
>He is calls Wolfe out for being some kind of a misogynist because he wrote a character who is 18-19 and wants to have sex.

This shit is so fucking painful to read in reviews. Anything is misogyny if their perfect female character lead isn't present and nothing bad happens to women. Also love/lust don't exist unless the woman has a very very deep reason to be with the guy because women don't make mistakes and are never shallow.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:02:22 2015 No.6904511 >>6904496 What's even more funny is that the most moral and pure character of the series is Dorcas. Only one who doesn't actively do wrong things, especially compared to male characters such as Baldanders, Agilus, Severian and the Autarch.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:03:36 2015 No.6904518

>>6904417
>He still has internal agency and Marc Aramini pointed it out, people forget Wolfe has free will as something integral to his worldview

This is really important to Wolfe's fiction. One of my personal favorite Wolfe short stories is The Last Thrilling Wonder Story. It deal specifically with this theme and seems to be Wolfe's 'thesis' regarding free will in his fiction.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:08:14 2015 No.6904538

>>6904437
>But compared to Leiber, Howard, Lovecraft, Dunsany, Eddison, Kipling, Haggard, Peake, Mieville, or Moorcock, Wolfe is nothing special.

Fuck no! I like all of those writers and the only ones that even come close to Wolfe's level are Eddison, Peake, and possibly Kipling.

The rest are nowhere near Wolfe's level (though Howard is a personal favorite of mine).

What's hilarious about this comparison is that Wolfe was heavily influenced by Howard, Lovecraft, Dunsany, Kipling, and Eddison and ended up being a huge influence for Mieville. He's contemporaries with Leiber and Moorcock but surpasses both by a large margin.

Keely is a self-righteous fuck. The fact that he actually believes Mieville is better than Wolfe shows that he values writers who agree with his personal political positions rather than the merits of the writers themselves.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:09:46 2015 No.6904543 >>6904488 ty nice dubs

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:10:21 2015 No.6904547 >>6904480 Have you read the book? It's pretty clear there's more going on than just the story of an orphan who becomes king.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:12:05 2015 No.6904553 >>6904547 Yeah but it doesn't feel like it's hidden?

pinky Thu Jul 30 18:15:06 2015 No.6904565

>>6904518
Can you give me a summary? And is it in his short story collection? I have read some of the stories there more often mentioned, but not that one.
>>6904488
This isn't Keely.

The guy posted a thread with his own review and praised it how accurate it was.
>>6904538
Was he really influenced by those? I've always recognized Chesterton, Vance, Proust and Melville in Wolfe and very distinctly so. But as I've said haven't read most of these. Lovecraft was only giant spooky sea monsters and that is nothing beneath the most superficial.

>>6904553
Well yes, even after two readings I get much from these threads.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:15:52 2015 No.6904570 >>6904565 >Well yes, even after two readings I get much from these threads. But the way he called it two stories as opposed to more depth to the story makes me unsure of what he refers to

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:16:12 2015 No.6904575

>>6904553
Ah, I thought what you were asking was the reverse: that there didn't seem to be anything at all beyond the surface story.

I'd say it has elements that are hidden more than others. It's a subtle work of Christian propaganda and I don't think that's apparent on the first reading. The history of Urth as revealed by the embedded stories isn't immediately apparent, either. Beyond those I think the hidden bits are comparatively small, though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:16:54 2015 No.6904577 >>6904565 Keely is mentioned in that thread though, and possibly posted there can you find the one you mean?

pinky Thu Jul 30 18:21:12 2015 No.6904599

>>6904570
Well there is a larger overarching meta narrative on the nature of myth, truth, time and memory so there literally are two stories in it, one being Severian and his journey, the other being told with all the small stories in it. And I found this to be one of the most brilliant things that Wolfe as a writer could have done.
>>6904577
Really don't have the motivation to find a thread since we have 2-3 big Wolfe threads weekly.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:23:34 2015 No.6904609 >>6904599 Ay mate have you read Latro in the Mist? I'm reading it soon and I'd like to know what I should set my hype meter to. no spoils please m8

pinky Thu Jul 30 18:27:43 2015 No.6904632

>>6904609
No, I've read New Sun, Urth, Wizard Knight, Sorcerers House, There are Doors, a bunch of short stories, 5th Head and currently going through Long Sun, read 2/3.
Skip House and Doors, that's for sure. One is mediocre and the other actually bad.

Anyone else notice how Long Sun is very similar in themes to New Sun? It's kind of disappointing in that regard.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:28:00 2015 No.6904635 ITT: Gene Roh: The Wolfe Brigade

>>	pinky Thu Jul 30 18:29:16 2015 No.6904641 >>6904635 Top kek, will repost

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:29:53 2015 No.6904647 >>6902871 In my country this man is nothing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:30:50 2015 No.6904649 >>6904609 The Soldier books are great. If you get lost in all of the mythological references, read Herodotus. >>6904632 Eh I think Long Sun stands on its own fairly well. What themes do you find overlapping?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:32:36 2015 No.6904662 >>6904565 >This isn't Keely. Go to the thread. ctrl+f. search for post ID 4940643 That's Keely

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:35:50 2015 No.6904685

>>6904565
>Can you give me a summary? And is it in his short story collection? I have read some of the stories there more often mentioned, but not that one.

The story is in the Endangered Species collection. Briefly, it is a action story where the author has conversations with his main character throughout the text, telling the main character what is and what isn't. The main character then goes on to oppose all of the authors pre-determined plot points and conclusions and ends up being 'alone' at the end. This is a really shitty explanation of the story, and I'm not doing it justice, but it's great.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:36:50 2015 No.6904690

>>6904649
I've read that and most other pieces of Greek literature (a few plays from each playwright, homer, hesiod, thucydides) Are there any references to the pre-socratics? I'm reading them soon so if there are I may aswell read Latro after them and at the same time as Playdo. Cheers for the reply tho and sorry for the rambling lmao

pinky Thu Jul 30 18:38:41 2015 No.6904696

>>6904647
Well considering how he isn't a bestselling author and wrote fantasy which has yet to "officially" break into classics, it is understandable.
>>6904649
Themes, but also motifs so I'll add those.
Protagonist wearing a black robe
Talking animal
Protagonist trying to return something (azoth, claw)
Azoth/Terminus Est
Protagonist becomes the ruler
Both are young men in religious or semi religious orders
Determinism and free will
Myth and truth
Sea as a source of danger, Scylla and Abia respectively
Claustrophobic scenes in darkness
Had a lot more in my head while reading, this what I can remember at the top of my head.
None of his other books had things strikingly similar aside Manny and the sword in TWK.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:39:13 2015 No.6904701

>>6904565
>Was he really influenced by those? I've always recognized Chesterton, Vance, Proust and Melville in Wolfe and very distinctly so. But as I've said haven't read most of these. Lovecraft was only giant spooky sea monsters and that is nothing beneath the most superficial.

Yes, very much so. He's gone on record stating his love for Howard and Lovecraft. An Evil Guest is essentially his homage to Lovecraft (it's pretty good too). He wrote a short story for an anthology dedicated to Howard. There was an interview I heard with him a while ago where talks at great length about how Kipling was one of his favorite writers as a child and remains a huge influence.

There are elements of Eddison that creep into his writing now and then--typically when he is using inset narratives.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:39:46 2015 No.6904702 >>6904690 Oh you're more than set for anything then. I don't recall any references to the pre-Socratics but I can't say for sure as I read a collection of their extant writings after the Soldier books.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:41:12 2015 No.6904711 >>6904696 I think they're intentionally analogous like that, though. Silk and Severian are really two very different characters and it's interesting seeing how each one reacts to the given occurrences thrown before them.

pinky Thu Jul 30 18:49:29 2015 No.6904744

>>6904662
Holy shit lit really attracts idiots like shit does flies.
>>6904711
I am well aware of that, but the problem is New Sun is much better. Wolfe isn't nearly as good with 3rd person. It's loses the depth of character and perspective and makes it a whole lot less vivid.
>>6904701
I've tried reading all of his interviews I could find and didn't read that one.
I'll have to check both An Evil Guest and those authors out eventually since I've since reading him tried to read those I mentioned earlier (and did), liked them, some more some less. Always heard about his pulpy influences, but read little pulp aside Lovecraft on whome I already spoke of.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 18:51:55 2015 No.6904756 >>6904702 Ah sweet then, cheers :)

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 19:02:04 2015 No.6904804 >>6904744 >It's loses the depth of character I disagree. Most of the characters in Long Sun are pretty bland, yeah, but Silk himself is great. I think he's more likable than Severian, though that's probably an unpopular opinion.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 19:03:45 2015 No.6904813 >>6904744 If you want more of Wolfe's pulp influences you should read Clark Ashton Smith. Wolfe even wrote an introduction for a collection of CAS's stuff. He's much better than his contemporaries.

Anonymous Thu Jul 30 20:16:29 2015 No.6905102

>>6904423
He completely misunderstood the book, the prose is beautiful, the plot is intriguing (it's just paced weirdly, which adds to the confused, almost trippy feeling the book is going for, Severian is supposed to be a horrible person, severian doesn't inderstand love properly which is why he constantly falls into it, basicay it evokes a kind of psychosis and you don't know what to believe as severian often lies, misunderstands, and fails to remember properly due to his perfect memory but in ability to summon any memory on command, the book is full of beautiful stories and warped versions of ancient mythical tales, biblical allusions, also he missed a key plot point, [spolier] there are 2 severians, also he is being aided by the hirodules the whole time and he might not even exist at all and merely be a projection of that machine thing which is why everything works out perfectly for him a lot and how he lucks out so often and seems to somehow accidentally end up as autarch [/spoiler]

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 20:50:01 2015 No.6905203 >>6905102 jesus fuck use a period for once

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 30 21:40:48 2015 No.6905400 >>6904744 >Wolfe isn't nearly as good with 3rd person. Then I have good news for you, because short sun is back to the memoir format.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 00:20:03 2015 No.6905974

>>6904417
Little extra to add to my theory: the old Autarch only mentions Erebus. The Ascians are directly named the slaves of Erebus, in Father Inire's letter. He mentions "Abaia's incursions", but is ambiguous to who that's directed too, or ever means. Everything Abaia's minions do helps Severian, saving him from drowning numerous times. While the Ascians of course try to kill him.

A common criticism of New Sun is that Severian has no agency, he's just wonders around from weird adventure to weird adventure. And for the most part this is true. I'm not saying he has zero free will, more so that world is made for him in such a way that he has little choose. Or, he believes he has choose when he really doesn't. Striking off Katherine's head or not isn't that big of a choose. He even brings up his lack of chooses at points, for example when the lake people get him to lead the battle against Baldanders, he says to him that he will only because he has to, he has little choose otherwise. Severian doesn't realize he's in a play, tha'ts meant to mold him into a certain man, so when the New Sun comes and civilization is rebooted, Severian will be the god leader that creates the exact right civilization just cruel enough to create the Heirodules.

>>6904466
I liked Perdido Street Station as a dumb adventure story, but yea nothing compared to Wolfe. A few good ideas, but mostly just commie propaganda. "Capitalism is disgusting" was the theme of ever single fucking page.

>>6904696
(What talking animal was there in New Sun?) Well, the similarities are on purpose, of course. Long and Short Sun are really continuations of the New Sun story, but in a more subtle way. Broski's general theory is that everything Wolfe wrote after New Sun, with few exceptions, was meant to further explain New Sun. Its the same sort of hero's story, but told from opposite perspectives. Severian is a villain Silk is a hero. Severian tells his own story, while Silk's tale is recounted by all those around him. (well, Silk too of course) Urth is an open world where a tight short story is told, while the Whorl is a closed system where a long expansive story takes place. Of course they are in the same universe, so mysteries in one story are explained simply in another. Like, Scylla and Abaia are the same person, one is their mind uploaded into a comp the other is thousands of years of evolution turning them into a monster. Inverse of an inverse.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 00:49:42 2015 No.6906083 >>6905974 I don't think Scylla and Abaia are the same. Scylla's corpse is on Urth, entombed among the dead of the Necropolis. She's only a great sea monster in the Whorl and in the fever dream world of Silk's astral travelings.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 00:52:20 2015 No.6906097 >>6906083 The transfer of the mind to another body is trivial in the Solar universe.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 00:56:15 2015 No.6906114 >>6906097 But that doesn't mean they're the same. And Abaia is male.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 02:00:09 2015 No.6906281

>>6906114
It never says Abaia is male. "The brides of Abaia" don't mean its male. I reckon a creature the size of a mountain could be any sex it wants, or both sexes, or none.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaia If the undine saved Severian because of Abaia's order, that would mean that New Sun came become Abaia willed it. That would line up with mythological Abaia quite well.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 06:17:39 2015 No.6906812

Just finished the 5th head of cerberus, im not sure i understood the last page.

'Phaedria lives with us and works too; the brilliant marriage was a failure after all. Last night while I was working in my surgery I heard her at the library door. I opened it and she had the child with her. Someday they'll want us."

whose is the child and what the fuck does the someday theyll want us mean

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 06:34:18 2015 No.6906848 >>6906812 Quite sure number five is doing experiments.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 11:47:47 2015 No.6907776

>>6906812
"Someday they'll want us." I love that line so much, so fucking creepy.

Number five, his father, and many others are clones. The original person was his grandfather, the person that was uploaded to the robot. They are cloning themselves and doing experiments on the newest clone in an attempt to become greater. Nature and nurture the ubermensch. Their hope is someday the planet will make them the king. IE Someday they'll want us.

Anonymous Fri Jul 31 12:42:46 2015 No.6908000

>>6907776

This is partially true, but the last line also indicates that Number 5 knows that he will eventually be killed by his children, just as he killed his own father.

The second and third parts of the novel reveal that number 5 was an abo all along and that the ending of the first novella also indicates that the abos are longing for human acceptance

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 14:30:12 2015 No.6908437 File: 1.59 MB, 325x235, flavor town.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6904354 >compared to Mieville, Wolfe is nothing special i would say this whole review was bait, but he sure wrote a lot

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 14:44:23 2015 No.6908499 >>6908437 It isn't bait. The guy is just an idiot.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 15:41:24 2015 No.6908686 >>6906281 Abaia is definitely referred to, either in New Sun or Urth, with the word 'he'. I read through New Sun the first time thinking he was a woman and it was on my second reading that his gender surprised me.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 31 15:48:27 2015 No.6908715 >>6908686 Me too but because I thought it'd be an It

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/lit/ - Literature