/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.6522411]

/his/tory general
I've been focusing most of my history reading on the Roman Empire/Republic or World War 2 for most of my life, but I want to expand my history knowledge
I'm looking for some good books detailing Medieval Europe or Medieval middle waste, and would like some works for someone who has a general/bare knowledge of both.
Crusades would also be fine.

Any suggestions?

[Anonymous No.6522497]

>>6522411
Wish I could help you out. I'm interested in this as well... also what were some of the best books for ww2 and rome?

[Anonymous No.6522520]

>>6522497
Churchill.

If you don't feel like spending 4 months reading about it, there is always David Reynolds

[Anonymous No.6522533]

>>6522411
Introductory university books can be good, Europe 300 to 1500 by Wim Bockman is ok.

[Anonymous No.6522536]

>>6522411
I don't have any suggestions for you but I do have a question.

What do you think of Douglas MacArthur? I'm doing a paper on the guy and as far as I'm aware he's a pretty controversial figure among historians.

[Anonymous No.6522553]

>>6522411
>.

Read some good primary source material on the wiki.

Use you knowledge of the Roman Empire to transition to Late Antiquity, which had a strong effect on the later ages.

If you need a unifying theme, focus on the history of the western Church.

[Anonymous No.6522560]

>>6522411
>middle waste
God I hope that becomes a meme.

As for medieval stuff I can't really help, but some good late medieval/early modern books are Reformation: Europe's House Divided by Diarmaid MucCollough, and Early Modern Europe by ME Weisner-Hanks, and Pursuit of Glory (Tim Blanning) is a fantastic sweeping history of Europe from 1600 to 1815. I can't say I've read all of each book but I've read most, and Blanning's is definitely the best written.

[Anonymous No.6522563]

>>6522411

Crusades: "God's war" by Christopher Tyerman
also "The Crusades through Arab Eyes" by Amin Malouf

[Anonymous No.6522568]

Which is a good book on Roman history? I thought about trying some Gibbons but 3000 pages is a little grace for a starter.
Unfortunately I can't help you, but I hope you'd be able to help me.

[Anonymous No.6522596]

This had me thinking. Any solid books that cover the period directly after the capitulation of Rome?

[Anonymous No.6522668]

>>6522568
Rubicon by Tom holland
Rise of Rome by Anthony Everett
Caesar: Life of a Colossus by Adrian Goldsworthy
Anything by Goldsworthy anyways

[Anonymous No.6522933]

>>6522563
>through Muslim eyes

Biased trash. The best history of the crusades is by Steven runciman.

>>6522497
A good beginners history of the entirety of the roman empire is "the history of Rome" by michael grant. Less than 400 pages and quite readable. Also some of the primary sources such as twelve Caesars by Suetonius are very entertaining. Beyond that, Edward Gibbons decline and Fall is the quintessential account for the fall of the roman empire. Rise and fall of Nazi Germany gives you a thorough understanding of the rise of the Nazi party and the war on the euro front

[Anonymous No.6522955]

Look into Jacques le Goff, Medieval Civilization 400-1500. Challenging but comprehensive. If you want to start in Late Antiquity and ease into the Middle Ages, which is by many accounts a good idea, especially if you're nicely familiar with the classical world, look into Peter Brown.

That's where I'd recommend starting.

>>6522933
Runciman is extremely outdated. It's a great read, and I like Runciman, but if you want a general introductory survey you'd be better off with something like God's War or Riley-Smith's Crusades: A Short History. God's War is a fucking tome though.

[Anonymous No.6522956]

r/history has a pretty good reading list as far as history books go.

http://www.reddit.com/r/history/wiki/recommendedlist

[Anonymous No.6522959]

>>6522955
>if you want a general introductory survey you'd be better off with

Just to clarify, I mean by this "if you want a standard, modern, college-level survey."

Honestly, nothing wrong with reading Runciman. It's often even better to start out that kind of thing, since you're more interested in the basics of chronology at the outset. But he IS outdated in the scholarly sense.

[Anonymous No.6523043]

>>6522668
These books are in chronological order? I know nothing about Rome.

[Anonymous No.6523065]

>>6523043
http://www.amazon.com/History-Rome-Michael-Grant/dp/0023456108

This book is a great introduction to roman history from the founding to the fall of the western half. A good intro for the eastern or byzantine half which survived a further thousand years would be "lost to the west" by Lars brownworth. Byzantium is often forgetten, though they preserved most of our current knowledge on ancient Greece and rome., as well as being a shield for the west during the dark days against Islam and mongols. As well, the migration of byzantine scholars from Constantinople and the east was a catalyst for the Renaissance.

[Anonymous No.6523105]

>>6523043
The best way to read is from Rise of Rome to Rubicon to Caesar.

[Anonymous No.6523163]

>>6522411
Destiny Disrupted - Tamim Ansary for an overview of the history of the Islamic World

[Anonymous No.6523188]

>>6523163
Who the fuck cares about Islamic history? All they did was massacre innocents, forcibly convert people to their shitty religion, and claim knowledge preserved by byzantine as their own

[Anonymous No.6523194]

>>6523188
>Who the fuck cares about X history?
this is why we can't have good history threads

[Anonymous No.6523217]

>>6523188
because it interesting, faglord. Just because Islam is a shit tier religion doesn't mean I invalidate the entire history of an area more advanced than Europe for quite a number of centuries, before the Mongol rape train.

Might as well wonder why learn about Spanish colonials despite being raping and theiving mercenaries

[Anonymous No.6523271]

>>6523217
>more advanced than Europe

During what time period? Are you referring to dynastic egypt before the Greeks?

[Anonymous No.6523319]

>>6523271
The fall of the Western Roman Empire really fucked up Western Europe, and the eastern empire, although advanced, were fucked up by plague and strife. The Middle East was a bastion of learning, science and warfare that certainly was better to live in than "Dark Ages" Europe. Of course once Europe regained a foothold and Byzantium kinda settled, and the Mongol rape train barreled through Iraq and Iran it fell apart.

[Anonymous No.6523850]

>>6522568
Mackay's Ancient Rome is a good overview text that's not that long but still does a good job

[Anonymous No.6523861]

>>6522955
Is God's War that solid? I'd thought about picking it up a while ago but didn't know if it was well-regarded enough to be worth it. I've got no problem with giant books as long as they're considered to be good works.

[Anonymous No.6524577]

>>6523319
>>6523217
>This level of memes.
Special meme point for mentionning the mongols, who had no lasting influence whatever. They only went in Persia and Northern Iraq. Baghdad at the time had already been a second rate city for a long time.
The islamic center was Cairo. The only lasting influence of the mongols was to bring with them what became the Ottoman Turks, who, as bizarre as it may seem, were an improvement on previous rulers.
The entire political history of the Islamic world in a fucking train wreck.
Your "centuries of being more advanced" are centuries where sharia laws was strictly enforced while people in Antwerp (where my family lived) lived in American-tier freedums.
The entire society was built on slavery, even worse than in antiquity. Literally Jamaica on a continental scale. The slave soldier system is maybe the worst of it.
There a good reason while their "philosophers" or "theologians" or "legists" have been ridiculed.
>but muuuuh science!
They didn't do anything outside medicine. Literally everything from power production, power transmission, gearing, naval manufacturing, urbanism, architecture, agronomy, farming methods, farming equipment, botany and zoology, military engineering, logistics, finance, ... was better in the West.

[Anonymous No.6524581]

>>6522955
Frog here. Jacques Le Goff is a hack.
Georges Duby is the goat French medievist.

As for the crusades, Runciman is the best overall, challenged by René Grousset (preferably in French because prose).

[Anonymous No.6524587]

>>6522568
Tacitus, Titus Livy, Diodore of Sicily, Appian, Ammianus Marcellinus, Florus, Sallust, Suetonius, ...

[Anonymous No.6524591]

>>6524581
also a frog and this guy speaks the truth

[Anonymous No.6524606]

>>6524577
I have a theory that Islam has had a dysgenic effect on the middle eastern (semitic) races.

The middle east was the birthplace of civilization, and was historically always more advanced than the rest of the world (up until the second millenia).

The islamic golden age could be attributed to the culture renewal that accompanies every change in government. However this was the last cultural renewal experienced in the middle east ever since. Why? My theory is that Islam led to a decrease in IQ of the semitic races, because of its dogmatic nature which didn't reward intelligent behavior.

Semites who lived in christian societies (such as jews) didn't experience this dysgenic effect so aren't retards nowadays like muslims.

[Anonymous No.6524655]

>>6524606
Congratulations! That was the most retarded post I've read today.

[Anonymous No.6524661]

>>6524655
Care to say why it's retarded?

[Anonymous No.6524662]

>>6524655
You didn't read >>6524577 ?

[Anonymous No.6524669]

>>6524662
>>6524655
How do you explain the fact that the islamic world produced more intellectual achievements 1000 years ago than it does today?

>inb4 muh israeli-american conspiracy

[Anonymous No.6524676]

>>6522568

Rome by Greg Woolf

[EUPHORIC GAMERGATE SUPPORTER ((...) No.6524701]

>>6522933

>shuns arabs for writing "biased trash"
>completely ignores eurozentric bias
>recommends an outdated, biased book

great post friend

[Anonymous No.6524702]

>>6523861
Tyerman is one of the major names in Crusades historiography. He used to be more representative of one scholary camp on the Crusades (the traditionalist) but apparently he's more open now. God's War is just a good survey. It's a bit staccato and "non-literary" because of that, since he is obviously covering tons of shit and it needs to be itemised and segmented. It also has a pretty good bibliography for further reading.

I'd probably recommend going with Riley-Smith if you want an absolutely beginner introduction to the Crusades though, He and Tyerman both have a lot of short books on Crusade historiography, too, which is incredibly dense.

>>6524581
>>6524591
Duby is amazing but it's harder to recommend Mâconnaise to someone new. I wouldn't even recommend Bloch to someone totally new, and I would only recommend Duby after Bloch.

[EUPHORIC GAMERGATE SUPPORTER ((...) No.6524714]

>>6523188
>>6523271


Go back to school, please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

[Anonymous No.6524727]

>>6524714
The last throes of the great ancient semitic civilizations, before they were ground by the heel of Islam.

[EUPHORIC GAMERGATE SUPPORTER ((...) No.6524730]

>>6524727

How does that make it "not a part of islamic history"? Is the end of a book not part of the same book? What you are saying (even though it clearly is wrong) still does not refute anything I said.

[Anonymous No.6524764]

>>6524730
>How does that make it "not a part of islamic history"?
It's about as much attributable to Islam as the achievements in the mongol empire are attributable to the mongols. I.e. not at all.

>Is the end of a book not part of the same book? What you are saying (even though it clearly is wrong) still does not refute anything I said.
The Islamic golden age happened despite Islam, not thanks to it.

[Anonymous No.6524790]

Internet source book has lots of good primary stuff, though some of it is in the original langage and can be a little difficult.

[EUPHORIC GAMERGATE SUPPORTER ((...) No.6524799]

>>6524764

No one ever implied Islam did anything good or worthwhile. You are changing the question in order to give a (wrong) answer. Try to stick to the script:

"All they [muslims] did was massacre innocents, forcibly convert people to their shitty religion, and claim knowledge preserved by byzantine as their own"

I discredited that statement, that's all my post was going for. I gave you an example of muslims being "civilized". I did not say it was thanks to Islam at all.

I also do not think all achievements made by mediaeval and post-mediaeval Europe were reached solely thanks to Christianity. That'd be fairly dumb.

Maybe now you see how irrelevant your point is. Just because the islamic golden age was not (exclusively) caused by islam does not mean that it is not part of islamic history.

[Anonymous No.6524814]

>>6524714
Most of that period is a myth created by liberals. After all, Islam must have some redeeming part of its history, r-right? Byzantines preserved all the ancient Greek and Latin texts. Whatever literature the muds preserved, they destroyed 100x more. Sure they had a couple of major contributions to math, but that can't be attributed to islam

[EUPHORIC GAMERGATE SUPPORTER ((...) No.6524851]

>>6524814

>completely missing the point of the discussion
>pointing me to your selfmade conspiracy theory
>gross exaggerations
>denying of evidence

"Everything I don't want to believe is a conspiracy made by jewish liberals!!!"

Go make a fucking thread about it on /pol/ you insufferable subhuman crybaby. Literally embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.6524869]

What's some good historical fiction with some historical value?

Pic related was not only a great book but interesting from a historical perspective

[Anonymous No.6524870]

>>6524669
>>6524661
The above post, >>6524606, was implying a /pol/ tier theory that Islam decreased the IQ of semetic races, why, apparently because of dogma(also disregarding the fact that early catholic societies were equally dogmatic and authoritarian).

The reason Islamic societies today have produced less scientific achievements is because most of them are either at a nascent industrialized and economically developed state or even pre-economically developed in some cases.
As science builds on previous achievements, a greater amount of human and financial resources are needed to bring about discoveries and innovations, things in short supply for non-high income countries.

I could ask why, if my above explanation is not correct, do sub-saharan Christian African societies produce as few scientific achievements as Islamic societies, but I'm inclined that the anon responsible for this post,>>6524606, would come up with an equally /pol/ tier explanation.

[Anonymous No.6524873]

>>6524799
I like you. Well blown the fuck outed, sir.

[Anonymous No.6524879]

>>6524869
Gore Vidal's "Julian" and "Creation"

Graves has other good stuff, especially Count Belisarius

Umberto Eco

Henryk Sienkiewicz

[Anonymous No.6524881]

>>6524851
I never said anything about jews. The west is apologist at the moment and they would rather give credit to muds than start an argument. Your rebuttal is to whine. You're the only one embarrassing themself.

[EUPHORIC GAMERGATE SUPPORTER ((...) No.6524894]

>>6524881

It's completely pointless to argue further. You said my sources are "a myth created by liberals". Either you go more in-depth and actually try to make a point as to why the Islamic golden age did not exist, or is portrayed wrongly by most historians. You cannot simply discredit a source by calling it a myth.

Maybe on /pol/ you can. Or you could choke on a dick.

[Anonymous No.6524916]

>>6524894
>most of that
>most
>most

You're not worth debating. Hang yourself before you infect future generations with your stupidity

[Anonymous No.6524934]

Is anyone familiar with Robert Hughes as an author? He's not the most scholarly author of course, but he might be the most interesting. Many of these stories are entirely new to me. For example, how Nero used to beat up people coming back from parties at night, before having his guardsmen dump the badly-beaten man into a sewer. It's not exactly warm-hearted conservatism. The sheer amount of dirt on the streets of Rome is hard to imagine as well.

Read it at night or in the wee, small hours of the morning. Pay especial attention to the first sentence in his paragraphs before completing the other sentences. He dispenses an airy kind of prologue.

[Anonymous No.6524936]

>>6524606
The silk road stopped being important in the age of sail, Muslims got outpaced by the west and ottomans did a shit job at carrying the torch along with power shifts such as fracturing of caliphates and outside pressure from groups like the mongols. Your theory is that of a half baked assumption from someone who is not read in what they are taking about, this whole thread is embarrassing really.

[Anonymous No.6524951]

>>6524870
>The above post, >>6524606, was implying a /pol/ tier theory that Islam decreased the IQ of semetic races, why, apparently because of dogma(also disregarding the fact that early catholic societies were equally dogmatic and authoritarian).
What do you mean by /pol/ tier? You're not a creationist are you?

>The reason Islamic societies today have produced less scientific achievements is because most of them are either at a nascent industrialized and economically developed state or even pre-economically developed in some cases.
That's not we're talking about. Why do Islamic societies produce less scientific achievements today than 1000 years ago? Were islamic societies 1000 years ago more industrliazed than today?

>As science builds on previous achievements, a greater amount of human and financial resources are needed to bring about discoveries and innovations, things in short supply for non-high income countries.
It doesn't take a lot of ressources to make contributions in theoretical mathematics. All you need is a pen and paper.


>I could ask why, if my above explanation is not correct, do sub-saharan Christian African societies produce as few scientific achievements as Islamic societies, but I'm inclined that the anon responsible for this post,>>6524606, would come up with an equally /pol/ tier explanation.

Do I seriously need to answer this question? It's the same reason why blacks perform poorly whatever their culture and wherever they might live in the world.

[Anonymous No.6524958]

>>6524934
If you like that you'll love twelve Caesars by Suetonius. Its a biography of Julius caesar and the first 11 emperors. Lots of scandalous stories such as Tiberius' pedophilia and violent purges, Caligula's bizarre and brutal reign, Nero's destructive and degenerate lifestyle etc

[Anonymous No.6524960]

>>6524936
>The silk road stopped being important in the age of sail
And that somehow caused a decline in the intellectual achievements of semitic peoples? Why?

>Muslims got outpaced by the west and ottomans did a shit job at carrying the torch
Why did muslims get outpaced by the west?

>along with power shifts such as fracturing of caliphates and outside pressure from groups like the mongols.
European history is anything but peaceful. But I do agree that the mongol destruction certainly harmed the muslim world.

>Your theory is that of a half baked assumption from someone who is not read in what they are taking about, this whole thread is embarrassing really.
Well, I never claimed to posess the answer to the question. I was just putting forward a theory that could possibly explain why the middle east has gone from being the most civilized place on earth to a shithole.

I know that talking about differences in intelligence is not politically correct but I do believe it's important to talk about them.

[Anonymous No.6525000]

>>6524606
Disregard other tards.
Islam did have a disgenic effects, but not in the way you think.

Look at this :
http://www.consang.net/index.php/Global_prevalence

In antiquity, inbreeding was prevalent in the Middle East, but only with royal/very high families, which became retarded after some time.

Islam is bedouin culture turned into religion. It has spread the habit of inbreeding to the masses.

[Anonymous No.6525007]

>>6525000
interesting.

But aren't ashkenazi jews incredibly inbred? Yet they have by far the highest achievements/capita ratio in the world.

[Anonymous No.6525011]

>>6524960
>But I do agree that the mongol destruction certainly harmed the muslim world.
It didn't any more than any of the war of the times.

By 1250, Iraq was an insignificant region that relied purely on prestige thanks ot the presence of the califate. All political and economical power was in Egypt and Syria. When Baghdad was detroyed, the sultan in Egypt became calif and no one gave a fuck.

>But I need a convenient date to end the supposed "golden age"
The mongol meme is a fine way of not giving an explanation of durkaness. The "fall" of muslim lands coming purely from an external source.

[Anonymous No.6525015]

how much did random germans know about the camps? what would it have done if they had learned?

[Anonymous No.6525016]

>>6525011
All right, I must admit I'm not very learned in middle eastern history.

So is it acceptable to claim that Islam, not the mongols, caused the decline of Mesopotamia?

[Anonymous No.6525030]

>>6525007
Ashkenazim is a word that denote many people. And they are not particularly inbred, certainly far less than muslims.

From the above website, on Israel :
Ashkenazi migrants : inbreeding coef : 0.0009
Sephradi : inbred coef : 0.0060
All Israel, Arabs Muslims : 0.0177

Note that isreali Arabs are often "selected".

[Anonymous No.6525044]

>>6525030
Uh, well will you look at that.

I guess inbreeding is a plausible explanation then.

Is there any way to un-inbreed oneself?

[Anonymous No.6525053]

>>6525016
No.
Mesopotamia turned to shit before Islam.
If anything, Arab invasion revigorated the small region around old Babylone because they put their califate there.

It is sometimes boring, but one must distinguish between places. Basically in Syria things almost immediately took a bad turn. In Egypt transition to durkaness was long and peaceful (as far as special taxes on infidels are peaceful). Persia was fucked irremediably. What is now Afghanistan underwent genocide.

There was much variation according to place and time. Overall, no matter how buttblasted some may be, if you really need to have a quick stereotype, it was much closer to Daesh/ISIS than the golden maymay.

[Anonymous No.6525061]

>>6525053
>Mesopotamia turned to shit before Islam.
why, what happened?

>It is sometimes boring, but one must distinguish between places. Basically in Syria things almost immediately took a bad turn. In Egypt transition to durkaness was long and peaceful (as far as special taxes on infidels are peaceful). Persia was fucked irremediably. What is now Afghanistan underwent genocide.
So did Islam contribute to the decline of these regions?

[Anonymous No.6525074]

>>6525044
Depends on teh level of inbreeding.
Theoretically, one could force a population of healthy individual to have children with inbreds. It works with varying results with dogs, horses and cows (who are the main experiment done since large scale "scientific" eugenics appeared around 1200) with many variables such as genetic distance, environmental factors, ratio of popuations.

It has never been tested with humans. First it would take perhaps one or two centuries. And in the experiments with producing new races of cows, the degenerate bulls are castrated into beef. Of course the males were the vectors because they can have many children both with sane cows and degenerate ones.

I don't think castrating muslims and launching a giant cuck program on middle eastern women would be considered acceptable.

The first obvious step would be to ban cousin marriage in muslim lands. But that would cause almost as much outrage in these countries than the above option.

[Anonymous No.6525117]

If I were to follow the history from the collapse of Rome to what happened immediately after in the next few hundred years, IE Dark Ages, what would be my best choice of works?

[Anonymous No.6525186]

>>6525015
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Clowns_by_country

[Anonymous No.6525229]

>>6525015
They didn't know anything because it didn't exist

[Anonymous No.6525279]

>>6524951
>It's the same reason why blacks perform poorly whatever their culture and wherever they might live in the world.


And there we have it folks

If only you'd made it clear from the start, then I wouldn't have wasted my time engaging you.

>>>/pol/

[Anonymous No.6525296]

>>6525279
>/pol/ is where all the ideas I dont like come from. Anyone who says something I dont like should go back to /pol/

pussy faggot bitch

[Anonymous No.6525306]

>>6524814
I don't think "islamic history" or "islamic golden age" are good terms at all, and if anything, they these terms were created by conservatives. Adding the word 'islamic' is very reductionist, as it implies that the religion is some all-encompassing force from which all human actions emanate. But in reality, Islam was just one facet, albeit an important one, in the history of Western Asia, Arabia and Central Asia (i.e. the "muslim world). So of course contributions in math can't be attributed to Islam, thats just a stupid argument. However, the Arab conquests, which were undoubtedly inspired by Islam, helped create the environment in which major advances in math, and (religious) philosophy were achieved.

tl;dr get back to /pol/ you fucking pleb

[Anonymous No.6525308]

>>6525117
Dark Ages is a British thing, which is understandable since there is an actual dark age about the island.
And the "next few hundred years" have no single identity.
On the merovingian time, a few essential contemporary sources :
Gregory of Tours
Jordanes

[Anonymous No.6525340]

>>6525306
No achievements in maths have been done there.
Note that nothing happened in teh West either.

All of the supposed mathematicians were glorified math professors. Nothing in geometry, nothing in analysis, nothing i mathematical logic. Nothing in arithmetic. Nothing in "abstract algebra". The algebbra they spoke about at the time was a term used only for the solution of polynomials. And even there, they barely said anything that was not known before.

The only thing of relevance was the introduction of position numerals, but it came from India. It came in Europe through Berbers.

There were good things done in the muslim world at the time, most of it about medicine. Why cling to the memes?

[Anonymous No.6525353]

>>6525306
You're overcomplicating things. Muslims refer to the so called golden age whenever criticized as barbaric or dumb. If anything its perpetuated by them. Your theory is actually embarrassing

[Anonymous No.6525377]

>>6525340
I'm not familiar with the most brilliant achievements of the Islamic world. But switch math any other subject that was excelled at in the medieval eastern mediterranean/iran/central asia (e.g. medicine or philosophy, as i did mention) and my argument still stands; attributing islam to everything that happened in that part of the world is misguided and just dumb

[Anonymous No.6525390]

>>6525353
it doesn't matter what muslims argue today, most average muslims, like your average western, fall back on romantic notions of the past because that's what theyre school system told them, or its just what they were raised to believe

>Your theory is actually embarrassing
lel, thats not an argument

[Anonymous No.6525393]

>>6525308

And now we're living in the Darky Age!

/Spike Milligan

[Anonymous No.6525397]

>>6522411
http://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-210

Great lecturer.

[Anonymous No.6525400]

>>6525397
Oh, It starts with the fall of Rome, the rise of Christianity and Islam and the early medieval era, up until 1000 AD.

[Anonymous No.6525404]

>>6525377
It is certainly dumb.
Same thing about the horrible thing that happened. It may be fine to relieve anger on /pol/ but clearly it was not just "islam gonna islam".

However, as Tocquveille said :
"Mohammed made not only religious doctrines, but also political maxims, civil and criminal laws, and scientific theories descend from heaven and placed them in the Koran."

Islam, both from muslim and orientalist historians, is rarely seen as a purely "religious" matter as we would say in the West. It is not, but it aims to be all-encompassing.

[Anonymous No.6525423]

>>6525390
Projecting

[Anonymous No.6525518]

>>6525296
>/pol/ is a board inhabited by people who call themselves "NatSocs", Stormfront, and other like minded groups
>Someone holding the racist, and in this cases unsupported, belief that Blacks are less intelligent than Whites somehow doesn't belong to /pol/

>>>/pol/

[Anonymous No.6525528]

>>6525518
All peanut butter in the universe should get inside the jar of peanut butter in my kitchen, QED.

[Anonymous No.6525539]

>>6525518
>>>/reddit/
>>>/tumblr/

[Anonymous No.6525552]

>>6525296
>pussy faggot bitch
Sexist homophobe.

[Anonymous No.6525573]

>>6525015
they all knew.
how couldn't they? They assumed that people next door just disappeared?
they were not aware of the exact conditions only because they didn't wanted to know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq-kzPKt008

[Anonymous No.6525596]

What are some history books written in the manner of 19th century writers?

I'm thinking of books similar to, say, Durant's World History (which is too big for me to read right now).

I want books which tell history in a very talented manner, which are fun to read, which talk about the great leaders and the great empires.

I don't want any kind of academic, popular, or scientific history.

I want LITERARY HISTORY.

Recommend books on this vein. Any books, written by anyone, at any time, about any subject, AS LONG AS THEY FIT THE DESCRIPTION.

Please recommend, I will be very thankful if you do.

[Anonymous No.6525607]

Totally not what you're looking for by Imperium by Robert Harris is a pretty good novel.

[Anonymous No.6525611]

>>6525596
You'd probably enjoy Gibbon immensely but it's fucklong

[Anonymous No.6525638]

>>6525611
Same for Herodotus, and the other Ancient historians probably. Their books are too long.

I need something 500 pages at most. I'm at a bad time in my life and I doubt I'd be able to finish a 600 page book.

[Anonymous No.6525887]

>>6525573
Fun fact on that scene
> Marlene Dietrich had a great deal of trouble performing in the scene between Mrs. Bertholt and Judge Haywood when she claims German civilians did not know of the atrocities the Nazi government committed during the war. Dietrich, who during the war had worked for the Allies against the Nazis, found the sentiment so repulsive that she could not keep her concentration. Only after counseling by Spencer Tracy was she able to complete the scene. According to an interview with her grandson Peter Riva on the "Icons Radio Hour", Dietrich would get physically ill (to the point of vomiting) in the evenings over this part. In a conversation with her daughter Maria Riva, Maria told her to "simply play her mother". The fictional Mrs. Bertholt is a representation of the mother of Marlene Dietrich.

[EUPHORIC GAMERGATE SUPPORTER ((...) No.6525903]

>>6525015

Even the daftest one knew. How could they not? It was right before their eyes and little to nothing was done to cover it up.

[Anonymous No.6525911]

>>6525903
...yet the nazis "burned" all the proof of the gas chambers, which is why we don't have a single document attesting to their existence :^)

[Anonymous No.6525915]

>>6522411
Millenium by Tom Holland
That Distant Mirror by Barbera Tuchman.

Both sort of narrative histories detailing two periods of medieval western history. Good reads that will give you a broad view of the era. Tuchmans is superior, obviously, but coveres the high middle ages.

[Anonymous No.6525940]

Any recommended books on military strategy (pre ww1, preferably ancient stuff) or cartography?

I don't want books with only text in them though, I really enjoy looking at pictures etc.

[EUPHORIC GAMERGATE SUPPORTER ((...) No.6525952]

>>6525911

There's tons of documents that I have witnessed with my own eyes. You can actually visit most of the concentration and extermination camps still and form your own point of view.

The city I lived in for most of my life actually had an honoring ceremony for the deported jewish families once. They showed us pictures of the families, where their houses stood and they even made the effort to dig up the Kontrollschein (train ticket to Auschwitz with confirmation). My grandpa was really moved. He knew most of these people, sometimes he'd even recall specific details about them.

But what's the point in talking to you? You've never been to Germany, you've never really searched for evidence and you will discredit just about anything as a liberal conspiracy.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/

"Pressac's analysis is at once exhaustive and convincing. It is based on primary documents and testimonies, original architectural plans, photographs, drawings, worksheets, and schematics. A particularly powerful analysis is found in Chapter 8 of Part Two, entitled "One proof ... one single proof". Thirty nine criminal traces, beginning at page 429. Pressac's book is a definitive proof of the use of poison gas to murder Jews at Auschwitz and it is based on primary sources from the Nazis. There is no doubt."

>there are no documents

keep telling yourself that. you're not interested in what really happened in the slightest. people like you actually make me feel sick.

[Anonymous No.6525964]

>>6525952
This is honestly sad. You're not fooling anyone Shlomo

[Anonymous No.6526030]

>>6525903
>>6525573
I can't believe that could fail to damage troop/worker morale

[EUPHORIC GAMERGATE SUPPORTER ((...) No.6526038]

>>6526030

People thought they were doing a good deed to their motherland. If you're actually interested in the subject you should study the propaganda of Nazi-Germany, which slowly but surely implemented the idea that jewish people are not human bat rather animals in the head of the Germans. There are comparisons with rats, bottomfeeders, paratytes of all kinds. De-humanizing the jews was extremely important to keep empathy and resistance in the populus at the lowest point possible.

[EUPHORIC GAMERGATE SUPPORTER ((...) No.6526040]

>>6526038

but* parasites*

[Anonymous No.6526055]

>>6522668
Are you me, that list is creepy. I am reading Everetts biography of Augustus right now, Rubicon is something I always offer to someone new to the subject and Goldsworthy's books are excellent, I have just finished In the Name of Rome which was surprisingly good.

[Anonymous No.6526060]

>>6525903
> It was right before their eyes and little to nothing was done to cover it up.
Extermination camps were located in provincial and military controlled Poland.. Average German would never stumble there.

[Anonymous No.6526090]

>>The Caliph is said to have been in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre when the hour came for prayer, but to have refused to spread his prayer rug within the church lest the building should be claimed by his followers for Islam. He therefore withdrew to the outer porch and prayed there. His fears proved justified: the porch - but only the porch - was immediately taken over, and remains in Muslim hands to this day.

[Anonymous No.6526203]

>>6526060

"It" referring to the deportation, not the camps

[Anonymous No.6526302]

>>6525638
René Grousset does all of the ME crusades in 400 pages. Well he did a 2000 pages 3 volumes book first but then wrote an other book for a more casual reading.
He's goat in terms of prose and narration, the guy got in the Acamédie Française for it. I don't know if there are any good English translations though.

Otherwise Tacitus. He's still one of the very best and is bound to have a very good translation in English.

[Anonymous No.6526384]

>>6524958
I read it about fifteen years ago but I can't recall all of it. Is the story about Nero in there as well?

[Anonymous No.6526472]

As a comprehensive tome on the second World War. how does "Delivered From Evil: The Saga of World War 2" stack up?

I wanted to pick it up, but its like 1200 pages long, and I would prefer to know how effective it is summarizing the war.

[Anonymous No.6526528]

I would recommend the Wages of Destruction. Views the German side of the war from an macroeconomic viewpoint and provide some economic reasons for the wacky choices they did.

[Anonymous No.6526537]

>>6526384
Which stories about Nero? How he married a transsexual boy? How he had his mother killed? Its all in there

[Anonymous No.6527029]

>>6525423
I think you're misusing that word

[Anonymous No.6527348]

>>6524577

seriously? So the arab's were always dumb as fuck??!

Not disputing this but A) any explanation for why they were so successful?

[Anonymous No.6527361]

>>6524870
>The above post, >>6524606, was implying a /pol/ tier theory that Islam decreased the IQ of semetic races, why, apparently because of dogma(also disregarding the fact that early catholic societies were equally dogmatic and authoritarian).

Because of the inbreeding which is mandated by Islamic law yo

[Anonymous No.6527392]

>>6525518

> not realising that blacks being dumber than whites is an entirely reasonable academic opinion
> not realising that nearly every economic historian acknowleges this unspoken truth
> not realising that a lot of prominent academics in relevant fields also more or less openly believe this

[Anonymous No.6528144]

>>6525061

The Romans and the Persians both fucked it heaps when one conquered it from the other.

Though the biggest fall it went through was when the Seleucids moved the capital of their Empire from Seleucia (in Mesopotamia) to Antioch (in Syria).

[Anonymous No.6528179]

Read Millenium for a cursory overview of the last millenium. There are many textbooks as well.

Perry Andersson's Passages From Antiquity to Feudalism is a good choice if you want to understand the transition. He is an orthodox marxist though.

Most things annales are good if you want something more challenging. I liked Duby and Braudel. Charles Tilly's Capital, Coercion and European staes is good as well.

[Anonymous No.6528203]

>>6527392
It's a hard pill to swallow (excuse the metaphor) as a leftist but it seems very likely to be true. Does anyone have any good sources arguing AGAINST racial differences in intelligence? The only good one I know about is the study of black German children of American WW2 soldiers who scored only very slightly less intelligent than the average German. But this is one study among thousands.

[Anonymous No.6528259]

>>6522411
Some french guy on /int/ recommended this to me, I know it's not literature, but from my watching of the the first episode it's bretty gud
>https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4dFk7XpP5b5R0c_7kCLYdvcdE-nVVaMa

>Those Terrible Middle Ages: Debunking the Myths
Good as a way to dispel some of the bullshit you'll probably see, not that great as a general guide or full history tho

You'd do well to ask /int/, they used to do /his/ and you also get some yuro sources/books which are always nice. Here in the states, at least in my experience, we were told le dark ages and islam golden age.

>>6524581
What this anon said as well

Just please, do not watch Crash Course, please, please.

[Anonymous No.6528263]

>>6527348
They murdered people when they were weak and were generally good at killing people. Not trying to say Christianity a good boi dindu nuthin but the Sassinad empire was weakened by fighting Byzantium and a lot of the smaller kingdoms and Christian principalities weren't particularly well armed nor strong. The Germanic tribes did attempt to restore and maintain Western Rome, but ever since the East/West split it, the west was in the shitter and no one could really maintain it.

[Anonymous No.6528290]

>>6526472
>delivered from evil
Sounds biased.
>inb4 mussolini ebil
>inb4 hitler was le tactical mistake
>inb4 soviet army was le human wave
If you find anything of amount of the those three in the book, it's shit

[Anonymous No.6528518]

>>6522411
Le Goff

[Anonymous No.6528629]

>>6522536
talented general, bit of a twat though

[Anonymous No.6528656]

>>6527348
Depends what you consider successful.
Sharia law in a theocracy whose only stability came from the levy of massive slave armies raised by stealing children from non-muslim parents and indoctrinating them. Industry was less developped than the same region in antiquity.

You have to consider that ethnic Arabs were living the high life. Before the inevitable comparison with le ebil feudal aristocracy, the Arab masters did not fight after 850 (slave armies and some mercenaries), they did not risk their capital in trade and construction and their religious occupations were much less demanding on a wordly basis.

Another point is that the ME was an old civilisation. It's not like Congolese became civilised after being conquered. Ibn Khaldun, who has indeed an anti-Arab bias, is by far the best historian and social commentary from this area. And he insist on presenting Arab conquest as atrocious and forcing the decay of old societies over time. His hatred of ethnic Arabs and the customs they brought in Islam is obvious.

I wouldn't use such a judgmental term as success, neither failure. Were the Mongols and Mandchus successful in China? One of the good things that came out of it was to give some vague sense of belonging among the masses that boosted trade internal the "muslim world".

[Anonymous No.6528769]

PRUSSIA STRONK
any other good books about the coolest nation to ever exist?

[Anonymous No.6529077]

Any good books about the american south? Something like Life on the Mississippi by Mark Twain?

[Anonymous No.6530494]

>>6524587
>Reading fiction

[Anonymous No.6530591]

>>6529077
Reconstruction by Eric Foner

>>6528769
Christopher Clark's Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia

[Anonymous No.6531462]

>>6522563
"The Crusades through Arab Eyes" by Amin Malouf

That book was terribly biased, not as much west vs east, but also his views on the sunni and shia, as far as i remeber very against the shia, like the Ismalis. His novels are cool though, like Samarkand that draws on the mythos Hassan Sabbah.

Very interesting period of the middle east, God wants it. The shia Fatimids in Egypt and the (sunni) turikish tribes,later on the Ottomans takeing down Byzant and as the devil in Fantasia the Mongols rising and the plague crushing all.

For roman history, read Polybius - The rise of the roman empire. Greek writer, follower of Scipio and active in the Punic wars wich is text book empire building. Great source that a lot of later books draws on.

[Anonymous No.6531488]

>>6528290
>inb4 hitler ebil
>inb4 holocaust happened
>inb4 american propaganda proves otherwise
>inb4 go to pol

If you find anything of amount of the those three in the book, it's shit

Ftfy

[Anonymous No.6531594]

>>6525279
Are you denying that blacks on average do it poorly wherever in the world they are?

[Anonymous No.6531601]

>>6525306
>muslim caliphates

[Anonymous No.6531624]

>>6525952
>There's tons of documents that I have witnessed with my own eyes. You can actually visit most of the concentration and extermination camps still and form your own point of view.
I've been to Auschwitz. It's like a rollercoast ride of emotions where at the end they've taken so much control that you would believe pretty much anything they tell you.

[Anonymous No.6532280]

>>6522568
>>6524587

also Caesars: The Civil War, and The Gallic Wars...

[Anonymous No.6532289]

>>6525952
>seen the documents
>pieces of paper with ink on them are proof of the holocaust.

Holy shit. Do you realize how stupid you sound? Anybody can write something on piece of fucking paper you dunce

[Anonymous No.6533031]

Bump

[Anonymous No.6533069]

>>6525596
Michelet. Actually a nineteenth century historian.

[Anonymous No.6533102]

>>6531624
That says nothing about those documents, or about wether what they tell you is true.

If what you're saying is that people like to hijack the Holocaust for drama or politics, then it's pretty obvious.

>>6532289
>documents are not proofs
>testimonies can be forged
>photos can be staged
>films can be modified
>you eyes can misled you
>you sense of touch can be off if you take too much drugs

You're right anon, none of us actually exists and we're actually the dream of a butterfly called aurelia. Not like you can prove the contrary.

[Anonymous No.6533384]

Any good books on the french revolutions of 1830 and the other one? Also, on the revolutions of 1848? Fascinating year.

[Anonymous No.6533531]

>ctrl+f "beevor"
>0 of 0

BEEVOR

>proofs?
>never happen

[Anonymous No.6533556]

"Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire" by Edward N. Luttwak does a wonderful overview of, well, the grand strategy of the Byzantine empire, randing from diplomatic ploys to courtly rituals to everyone's favorite, military strategy and tactics.

But reading the book, you won't only experience the Byzantines in detail. In fact, roughly 40% of the entire text focuses on the strategies of its historic neighbours, ranging from the Persians and Caliphates to Bulgarians and many other obscure steppe nomads - all the cultures that had much contact with the Byzantines and which have, in turn, influenced their strategy immensely, namely the Huns.

[Anonymous No.6533570]

>>6522411

Could anyone recommend me any books about Romanian history, specifically ones that detail the period under Ceaușescu?