>he grins smugly because he knows you can't understand his writing

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Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:29:39 2015 No.6452821 [Reply] [Original]

>he grins smugly because he knows you can't understand his writing

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:32:09 2015 No.6452825 >>6452821 Smug Wolfe Pepe when?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:33:02 2015 No.6452827 >fantasy dorks get mad at Joyce and Pynchon because they can't understand them >they suck Wolfe's cock for the same reason

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:33:57 2015 No.6452829 >>6452827 Why do you think we aren't fans of Wolfe an Pynchon and Joyce?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:36:48 2015 No.6452835 >>6452827 >Implying I don't appreciate Wolfe, Pynchon, and Joyce.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:37:06 2015 No.6452837 >>6452829 Because Gene Wolfe fans have literally claimed that he's better than Joyce on this board.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:39:38 2015 No.6452840 >>6452837 Oh no someone's favorite meme writer is more liked than my favorite meme writer on a pakistani rakugaki board

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:40:20 2015 No.6452841 >>6452837 I know people compare him to Melville and Dickens but haven't seen that

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:42:42 2015 No.6452849

>>6452837
In the statement Gene Wolfe>James Joyce, where is it implied that a lack of understanding of Joyce's work is present, or that a lack of appreciation of it is present?

By the way, Wolfe is a lot better. Joyce's tendency to dwell in reality means that his work is very susceptible to becoming dated, where as Wolfe's vague, abstract worlds are almost unidentifiable with our own.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:44:02 2015 No.6452851 >>6452849 The new sun world isn't vague, its all there to understand >the torturers buildings are space ships >the portrait of a knight in white armor and gold helmet is an astronaut

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:45:40 2015 No.6452854 >>6452851 >he doesn't get it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:47:26 2015 No.6452857 >>6452851 And then there the Latro books, he draws directly from the ancient world described by Herodotus

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:52:14 2015 No.6452863 >>6452851 >Implying that the torturers' guild makes up the whole world.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:54:00 2015 No.6452865 >>6452849 >In the statement Gene Wolfe>James Joyce, where is it implied that a lack of understanding of Joyce's work is present Because if you'd actually read and understood Joyce you'd know that that's a ridiculous statement.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:55:00 2015 No.6452867 >>6452849 >where as Wolfe's vague, abstract worlds are almost unidentifiable with our own. Yeah and so are his stereotyped 2D characters. Meanwhile Joyce knew everything there was to know about being human.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:56:22 2015 No.6452872

>>6452837
So you can't like Wolfe more than Joyce and if you think that Wolfe is better that somehow makes Joyce a bad writer? Also people claim a lot of things on a liberal SJW homo australian board.
>>6452841
He is compared to those two outside of 4chin also.
>>6452851
It isn't vague, it is misty and strange. But you are giving really basic examples.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:58:45 2015 No.6452878

>>6452865
>Because if you'd actually read and understood Joyce you'd know that that's a ridiculous statement.
That's a really intellectually dishonest argument. "Everyone who disagrees with me is misinformed"

>Yeah and so are his stereotyped 2D characters. Meanwhile Joyce knew everything there was to know about being human.
15 year old girls identify with the characters in The Fault in our Stars. That doesn't mean it's good. Wolfe's characters are far from stereotyped either. I mean, occasionally they become sort of archetypal, but it's always as a part of some other narrative aim. But anyway, the characters are far fom the narrative centerpieces they are in so much other literature. They're a lot closer to windows from which we can gather information about the world.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 11:59:13 2015 No.6452880 So what is this profound shit that Wolfe supposedly has to say, anyway? What are the underlying arguments of his work?

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:00:26 2015 No.6452883

>>6452867
Which character is the stereotype? And which characters are 2D? And why do you comment on an author you haven't read? It's ok anon, you can read him and like him, you don't have to pretend to be the ultimate patrician of a turkish carpet weaving board.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:02:08 2015 No.6452893 File: 114 KB, 600x600, smug wolfe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6452825

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:02:43 2015 No.6452897

>>6452878
I didn't ever mention "identifying" with characters. As Nabokov said, that is the lowest form of reading.

Wolfe's work is inherently limited by its association with genre fiction. It's only innovative within that context. Joyce's context is life itself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:03:43 2015 No.6452898 >>6452883 >And which characters are 2D? All of them except possibly the protagonist, who is a ridiculous caricature.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:04:32 2015 No.6452900 >>6452893 This is the first pepe I've ever saved

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:05:35 2015 No.6452907

>>6452880
Well he talks a lot about how memory shapes the way you percieve reallity and perception in general. Plays a lot with how subjective the things are for us. How we are shaped by forces around us to the point it is almost all naturalistic and deterministic. But in that standard modern/postmodern view he adds his Catholic beliefs where the Logos is always somewhere to be found to make things "true". Sin, death, redemption and ressurection are also big themes where people are either literaly or metaphoricaly ressurected. On what is a human, which is the main theme of 5th Head of Cerberus. What makes you human.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR6XewCfSK0
These videos may also be insightful.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:06:36 2015 No.6452911 >>6452893 HALLELUIAH AND HOSANA IT IS FINALLY HERE

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:07:08 2015 No.6452916 Undines are the key to all this

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:08:47 2015 No.6452923

>>6452897
>Wolfe's work is inherently limited by its association with genre fiction.
That's like saying that Moby Dick is inherently limited by the fact that it's nautical fiction. Wolfe uses fantasy and sci-fi as a topic for literary exploration rather than a stylistic foundation.

Brandon Sanderson = Limited by the confines of genre fiction
Michael Bishop = Innovates within the confines of genre fiction
Gene Wolfe = Incorrectly called genre fiction despite the fact that it breaks all of genre fiction's confines.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:09:25 2015 No.6452926 File: 256 KB, 1113x788, b5d6ae380aa3d34641656b335ef9ddbc.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6452916 Real, real, real... not real. This is gonna be hard.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:10:46 2015 No.6452934

>>6452898
Dorcas is a very complex being. Baldanders, Jonas, Thecla, Number Five, the kid from Island of Doctor Death... All are complex enough to be side characters in a Dostoevsky novel. And in what way is "the protagonist" (whose name is repeated so many times it's hard to believe someone who has read the book doesn't remember it) is a caricature?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:12:01 2015 No.6452939 >>6452907 Those are all extremely common themes. Virtually passé at this point.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:12:46 2015 No.6452944 >>6452923 The entire new wave (Le Guin, Dick, Wolfe) use SF just as a basis for exploration. They are closer to Borges than they are to Asimov, Clarke or Herbert.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:13:05 2015 No.6452947 >>6452893 >rare pepe

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:13:23 2015 No.6452949 >>6452939 The way he deals with subjectivity is really amazing to behold. But w/e. Have you even read BotNS?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:15:07 2015 No.6452956 >>6452939 Oh no! A theme is common! Therefor it cannot be well done and have new insight! They cannot be explored! You know that someone is retarded when he criticises an author on the basis of "the theme has been explored in one way by someone else"

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:15:29 2015 No.6452958 >>6452944 Wolfe started towards the latter half the the new wave, and appeared in some of its platforms like Spider Robinsons Nova collections, BUT I wouldn't classify him as a new wave author Not every writer who started in the 50s is a beatnik

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:17:18 2015 No.6452969 >>6452947 This is the freshest, most rare pepe atm in the world. Post him wisely. >>6452949 It's quite clear that he hasn't.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:17:27 2015 No.6452971

>>6452883
Two of Wolfes books deal with archetypal tropes, book of the new sun and the wizard knight so the lead a d supporting characters and events and plot can seem stereotyped and the same as what others have done before because he is using these commonly understood conventions

Other characters in other works are not like this

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:19:30 2015 No.6452980 >>6452958 He wasn't a member of the movement itself, his work fits the discription Le Guin uses for her own works. But yeah, it is debatable how to classify him.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:19:34 2015 No.6452982

>>6452923
>Wolfe uses fantasy and sci-fi as a topic for literary exploration rather than a stylistic foundation.

Bullshit. His work is mired in tired old genre tropes. TBotNS is no less fantasy than, for example, Watchmen is a cape comic. They still depend on clichés to convey their ideas and arguments, which granted may be more sophisticated than is typical for their respective genres. But it's still self-limiting; they are still essentially hog-tied by the very tropes they subvert.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:20:45 2015 No.6452987 >>6452956 I'm just wondering what sets him apart as "the greatest contemporary author" (and "better than Joyce") in his fans eyes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:22:43 2015 No.6452994 >>6452971 Archetypal trope is a different thing. Almost every important russian novelist from Turgenjev to Dostoevsky relied heavily on the archetype of the needless man.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:23:48 2015 No.6453002

>>6452944
>They are closer to Borges than they are to Asimov, Clarke or Herbert.

Borges created (and thus transcended) a whole genre; Wolfe and Le Guin merely re-employ an inherited set of genre tropes. Therein lies the difference between 'literary fiction' and 'genre fiction'.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:25:15 2015 No.6453008

>>6452982
>TBotNS is no less fantasy than, for example, Watchmen is a cape comic. They still depend on clichés to convey their ideas and arguments, which granted may be more sophisticated than is typical for their respective genres. But it's still self-limiting; they are still essentially hog-tied by the very tropes they subvert.
Ugh. Even if we accept the idea that fantasy tropes are inherently limiting, BotNs hardly utilises any of them. The onyl way in which it is even vaguely similar to any fantasy book in terms of its fundamental stylistic leanings is the cover artwork. The world in which it is set is vaguely defined enough (A staple of fantasy literature, the map at the front of the book, is nowhere to be found in BotNs) that it's kind of impossible to make categorical statements about its stylistic leanings anyway. Great, it has swords. You can call it a genre book because of that if you want, but to me that seems like a pretty superficial way of analysing things.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:25:40 2015 No.6453009

>>6452987
I don't think that he is better than Joyce. Some perfer him to Joyce, I personally like Wolfe more because I've read Joyce as a teen and got nothing, was too complex. Watch the vids on the channel to get why we like him.
>>6452982
Which cliches (and not archetypes) is Wolfe depended on?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:26:42 2015 No.6453014 >>6452982 >His work is mired in tired old genre tropes. TBotNS is no less fantasy than Yes he is deliberately mining the the Dying Earth genre

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:27:22 2015 No.6453017 >>6452923 You know instead of the silly mental gymnastics you could just admit that the genre fiction / literary fiction dichotomy is a load of bullshit for teenagers fresh from /mu/ to circlejerk over?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:27:57 2015 No.6453018 >>6453002 Balzac created (and thus transcended) a whole genre; Dostoevsky and Tolstoy re-employ an inherited set of genre tropes. Therein lies the difference between 'literary fiction' and 'genre fiction'.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:28:57 2015 No.6453020 >>6453014 He only took the dying earth aesthetic. Not much else afaik

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:29:46 2015 No.6453024

>>6453002
>Wolfe and Le Guin merely re-employ an inherited set of genre tropes.
At anything but the most superficial level, there are very few traditional fantasy or scifi tropes present in BotNs. The occasions where Wolfe does make use of a tradition or trope from fantasy fiction are just as rare as the occasions where he makes use of a tradition or trope from literary fiction. Read the actual books you blowhards.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:30:33 2015 No.6453027 >>6453017 Actually a good point, will try to use it more. It's just that the cancer of /lit/ has spread in me too much.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:31:29 2015 No.6453033 >>6453018 Realism is not a genre but a form. The real world is not a trope but, um, the real world. Fantasy is a genre because it is defined by a pre-established set of tropes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:31:33 2015 No.6453034 >>6453024 I have a feeling that in every Wolfe thread we are arguing endless streams of genre fiction memers and b8rs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:31:35 2015 No.6453036 File: 167 KB, 1056x1072, severian.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6452893

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:34:55 2015 No.6453047

>>6453033
Realism had tropes. Tons of them. Dostoevsky is rooted deepy in many tropes set by other authors before him, or used the tropes he created himself. Realism is a genre because realism is not the real world. And it as a literary movement had tons of pre-established tropes.
But than again there is no such thing as literary fiction and genre fiction, only good and bad books. Shaekspeare used tropes, many many of them. Even blantly took ideas from others (Ovid), so did Dante (Vergil).

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:36:12 2015 No.6453050

>>6453033
>Fantasy is a genre because it is defined by a pre-established set of tropes.
Very few of which are present on BotNs. Also, just because something is set in the real world or written in the literary tradition doesn't mean it can't have a distinct set of stylistic and thematic boundaries.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:37:38 2015 No.6453059

>>6453024
I have the read TBotNS and from what I recall it's about a Chosen One embarking upon a Hero's Quest in a fantastic magical world populated by a wacky cast of misfits. Sure, these tropes may have been manipulated somewhat and given a fresh coat of paint, but they still constitute the building blocks of the story. It is only innovative insofar as it subverts genre tropes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:39:19 2015 No.6453063 >>6453059 >Chosen One' Nope' >Hero''s Quest Nope' >fantastic magical world Hardly >wacky cast of misfits Nope

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:40:12 2015 No.6453069

>>6453059
I have read the New Testamnet and from what I recall about a Chosen One embarking upon a Hero's Quest in a far away land populated by a wacky cast of misfits. Sure, these tropes may have been manipulated somewhat and given a fresh coat of paint, but they still constitute the building blocks of the story. It is only innovative insofar as it subverts genre tropes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:40:19 2015 No.6453070 My main problem with TBotNS (and it's a significant one) is that there is very little human content. It never made me feel anything at all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:44:01 2015 No.6453080 >>6453070 While it is detached I had no problems feeling things for it. But hey! We've gotten a first reasonable critique!

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:44:49 2015 No.6453084

>>6453063
You're wrong. Just because you turn a trope upside down it doesn't mean you've transcended it. Borges, as an example of an actual literary genius, created a whole new lexicon of tropes rather than lazily propping his work upon a pre-existing set. (Inb4 you can't tell the difference between an allusion and the employment of a trope.)

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:48:05 2015 No.6453090 >>6453084 We have already proven that critiquing something on the basis of usage of tropes is retarded because they were commonly used by some of the greatest writers to live and even named 3 off the bat.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 12:51:51 2015 No.6453109 >>6453084 You are so fucking thick. Holy shit. The only analysis that says that Wolfe "lazily propped his work upon a pre-existing set" is a superficial one. Yeah, it has swords, butt hat tells us absolutely nothing about the actual content.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:00:10 2015 No.6453145

>>6453047
>Shaekspeare used tropes, many many of them. Even blantly took ideas from others (Ovid)

What tropes of Ovid did Shakespeare re-employ? I'm well aware that he heavily alluded to him and indeed re-imagined whole episodes from the Metamorphoses, but I wouldn't say that he was particularly dependent on Ovidian rhetorical or narrative devices. The tropes that I guess Shakespeare could be said to have employed are those of classical drama, but I'd argue that that's a question of medium rather than genre (a taxonomical distinction analogous to that between species and race.)

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:05:24 2015 No.6453178

>>6453145
From Ovid he took things like Piram and Tizba (not sure how they are callen in english, but Romeo and Juliet for his). The story of two young lovers who cannot be togeather due to their family who due to a misunderstanding both kill themselves even if they could have lived.
And his drama uses a very strict format of the classical drama so that is the "trope" he was using. I wasn't saying that as a critique of him, but trying to point out that even if Wolfe emploied tropes (or reimagined other stories) it wouldn't be a valid critique.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:10:31 2015 No.6453205 >>6452897 >Wolfe's work is inherently limited by its association with genre fiction. Ah, you're one of those people.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:11:58 2015 No.6453214 >>6453084 I suppose Charlotte Brontë is a hack because she used the existing tropes of Gothic fiction in Jane Eyre.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:17:16 2015 No.6453226 >>6453047 >But than again there is no such thing as literary fiction and genre fiction, only good and bad books. THANK YOU. FINALLY. Fuck. I thought I was slowly going insane with everyone accepting this bullshit distinction.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:20:03 2015 No.6453231 >>6453002 And Asimov transcended space opera by elevating it from its cheesy pulp roots.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:23:02 2015 No.6453239 >>6453231 asimov sucks

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:25:32 2015 No.6453246 >>6453239 I'm pretty sure that is not important here

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:34:23 2015 No.6453264 File: 192 KB, 481x347, 1405785328561.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6452867 >Meanwhile Joyce knew everything there was to know about being human.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:40:15 2015 No.6453283 >>6452939 There are no themes that aren't extremely common you fucking idiot. It's execution that matters.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:45:57 2015 No.6453311 This fan base doesn't seem to genuinely enjoy SF or Fantasy, it seems kind of contemptious of them. Why can't you nerds accept that this belongs in the same tradition as Heinlein and Asimov? Not enough Cultural Capital or something?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:54:02 2015 No.6453360 >>6453239 So do hipsters

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 13:58:50 2015 No.6453379 >>6453311 They want to be seen as 'serious readers' but they can't stomach anything that doesn't satisfy their need for fantastical escapism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 14:00:30 2015 No.6453386 >>6453311 >this fanbase Get out

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 14:07:28 2015 No.6453412 >>6453311 I'm throwing my own lot in with all the people who say the genre fiction/literature distinction is useless. I mean fucking hell, this board loves to slurp Blood Meridian's cock, but guess what Blood Meridian is? A WESTERN. A GENRE BOOK.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 14:07:32 2015 No.6453413 >>6453386 >Pretending subcultures don't grow around books >Pretending they aren't especially pronounced in SF/fantasy

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 14:45:30 2015 No.6453577

>>6453008

Good post. It's also worth noting that when Wolf employs a trope it's almost always for the purpose of subverting it. Anyone who has read his work would understand this. Once again, butt mad faggot shit posters come in to shit up another Wolfe thread. It's really getting pathetic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 14:48:18 2015 No.6453589 >>6453311 I don't see why they wouldn't. Gene wears his pulp influences on his sleeve.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 14:50:31 2015 No.6453598 >>6453070 At least this is a reasonable critique. But don't forget: >Little Severian >The Story telling Contest >Jonas leaving Severian >Jolenta's death Lots of moments with tons of feels. At least for me personally.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 15:15:53 2015 No.6453696
File: 19 KB, 608x659, 10434171_10204517902660113_3953232323592701318_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6453598
>The Story telling Contest

>mfw Loyal To The Group Of Seventeen's story

Fucking hell. I never would have thought you could tell a story using the same phrases over and over and over again and still have it make complete sense.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 15:24:04 2015 No.6453738 File: 41 KB, 351x359, 173897.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Seven American Nights

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 15:28:51 2015 No.6453756 >>6452900 Take a moment and reflect upon the threshold you've just crossed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 16:44:05 2015 No.6454073 >>6452893 That is the single greatest image humanity has ever made. Art is over. You finished it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 16:46:13 2015 No.6454077 >>6453696 i'm glad he won, he deserved it

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 16:48:41 2015 No.6454086

>>6453311
>Why can't you nerds accept that this belongs in the same tradition as Heinlein and Asimov?
Because those writers had little to no influence on him. If you'd actually read him you'd see that. And I " genuinely enjoy SF or Fantasy", I am a big fan of Dick and like Herbert to a degree. Also Tolkien is GOAT.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 16:49:47 2015 No.6454088 >>6453696 That is one of the most fantastic and amazing things I have ever read.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 17:08:47 2015 No.6454155 >>6452893 And to think I almost skipped this thread.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 17:10:40 2015 No.6454160 >>6454155 Now we have a Wojack Severian and Pepe Wolfe. Now we need a whole scene with Wolfe using the Alzabo to fuck with Wojack Sev.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 17:17:57 2015 No.6454183 >>6452944 I'll grant you Dick and sometimes Wolfe, but Le Guin's exploration is grounded in society and not purely abstract, so she'll always be closer to Asimov than Borges.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:24:44 2015 No.6454441 >>6452907 Marc Aramini is the hero /lit/ needs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:32:48 2015 No.6454487 >>6454441 have you read any of his posts on the urth mailing list? his contributions are always great

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:35:20 2015 No.6454500 >>6454441 I always wondered if he ever posted here

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:38:06 2015 No.6454513 >>6454500 I doubt it

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:42:05 2015 No.6454537 >>6454513 Well this is one of the more Wolfe friendly places.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:45:58 2015 No.6454561

>>6454537
You sure about that? There's plenty of hate here for Wolfe here. Also, there are hardly any other places where Wolfe is frequently discussed and even on /lit/ these threads were pretty rare until about a year ago.

On a lot of articles about Wolfe I see Marc Aramini's posts. I also see his frequent contributions to the mailing list. He has some pretty polarizing opinions and I feel like I would have noticed some of them had they been discussed here before.

Could be wrong though. He could be the one spamming all of these threads and forcing Wolfe down everyone's throats. I hope he's not, though.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:46:13 2015 No.6454562 >>6452849 I'd argue for the same reason, Wolfe is arguably superior to Shakespeare. Shakespeare is a sort of ye olde vibe that's lost its relevance, whereas Wolfe is timeless because of his setting.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:49:11 2015 No.6454572

>>6454561
>There's plenty of hate here for Wolfe here.
Well that is because lots of opinionated people come here with their 10 meme core books read that feel superior due to calling things "genre".
I'm often wolfeposting, but only when the need arises, so recommendations, favourite authors, books that deal with x and so on.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:50:01 2015 No.6454578
File: 134 KB, 311x355, doubting scalp.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6454562
do you know how many words you use on a daily basis that are taken from shakespeare?
furthermore, have you seen any of those horrendous modern adaptations of his works?
please be baiting.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:55:34 2015 No.6454601 >>6454562 I know this is bait, but I've been taking it all ay so why stop now. Shakespeare is better than Wolfe, but I like Wolfe more. Wolfe sadly doesn't have the impact he might have had or may have one day. Also >setting

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:58:46 2015 No.6454621 >>6454578 Shakespeare's influence on the language is largely overexaggerated by people taken in by the idea of Shakespeare, rather than objectively judging his writing. >>6454601 I think you're just afraid of blaspheming an icon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:04:11 2015 No.6454652 >>6453033 >Fantasy is a genre because it is defined by a pre-established set of tropes. >Actually believing this

>>	[$$$Weed Alliance$$$] Sat Apr 25 19:04:29 2015 No.6454653 >>6454621 2/10, but this really wasn't that hard to find

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:04:34 2015 No.6454655 >>6454621 largely overexaggerated? http://www.pathguy.com/shakeswo.htm

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:04:35 2015 No.6454656 File: 18 KB, 500x500, I+almost+bite+gr8+_6ef9793031aa7a39a4c5e1cbd31f2e44.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6454621

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:04:46 2015 No.6454658 >>6452821 that's not Will Self, OP

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:06:26 2015 No.6454671 >>6454655 Most of these phrases are not what we call "cliches" and it's shitty writing to use them. As for the words a lot of them existed prior to Shakespeare, he was just the first to record them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:07:30 2015 No.6454681 >>6454671 >are now what we call

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:09:43 2015 No.6454690 >>6454671 it doesn't matter if they're cliches wolfe used cliches the book of the new sun is, on the surface, the story of an orphan becoming king and messiah is that not a cliche?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:11:35 2015 No.6454707 >>6454690 No, because its significance is buttressed by its precedence. A cliche is where the significance is watered down.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:16:39 2015 No.6454731 >>6454707 ah, so because he dresses the circumstances up and veils them with sleight of hand bullshit they're permissible? you're not saying anything meaningful. this is why these threads always go to shit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:19:03 2015 No.6454743 >>6453059 He is consciously and deliberately using them

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:21:07 2015 No.6454749 >>6453738 The Persian guy got replaced, the girl may have had something wrong with her genitals

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:22:08 2015 No.6454757 >>6454160 Pepe Wolfe needs to tell Wojack that he caused that feel

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:23:09 2015 No.6454761 >>6454183 >Le Guin >Asimov Lolwut that's not her influence Her influence is Leigh Brackett Compare Le guins earliest works which are space opera/planetary romances a d they are Brackett duplicates

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:24:31 2015 No.6454765 >no one has commented on Borges obvious influence on Wolfe >no one has noticed that the blind librarian is based on Borges I read this right after The Name of the Rose, it was trippy seeing the same concepts repeated

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:30:30 2015 No.6454792 >>6454765 I mentioned it. Said that he is more influenced by Borges then by Asimov.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 20:14:50 2015 No.6454971 >>6453020 I wouldn't say it's just aesthetic. Dying Earth setting obviously has eschatological potential...which is kind of the book's focus.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 20:54:27 2015 No.6455193 >>6453412 Blood Meridian is great, and shares a lot of language and themes with New Sun. Anyone that likes Blood Meridian but not New Sun is a silly smelly airhead.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 20:56:26 2015 No.6455209 >>6454077 And the way the story tells us he won is even better!

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 21:00:50 2015 No.6455232 >>6454487 Marc and I have communicated a few times. And I'm on the urth list as well. I have his master document with everything he's written on Wolfe that he hasn't released yet. Good stuff.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 21:04:21 2015 No.6455252

>>6454765
If you read his essays in Castle of the Otter, it's clear that Borges is a big influence on him. Afterall, the idea of the man who remembers everything was in a Borges story.

Also, he references Baldanders as being from Borges' Book of Imaginary Beings

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 21:09:35 2015 No.6455270 File: 11 KB, 501x585, jew-bwa-ha-ha.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6452893 now we need a Merchant wolfe captioned "I caused that confusion"

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 21:23:19 2015 No.6455323 >>6455270 Please no.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 23:09:18 2015 No.6455750 >>6453036 awesome

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 23:21:10 2015 No.6455790

>>6452971
>>6452982
>>6452994
>>6453008
>>6453018
>>6453024
>>6453033
>>6453047
>>6453059
>>6453069
>>6453084
>>6453090
>>6453145
>>6453178
>>6453214
>>6453577
Nerds who read and talk about this crap confirmed for illiterate retards who don't know how to use the word "trope". I now feel justified in my decision never to read him.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 23:23:17 2015 No.6455799 >>6455270 >I wrote that confusion fix'd

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 01:37:37 2015 No.6456249 >>6455790 Did you know, that most people don't give a fuck about tropes, and if you do you might be a retarded little baby?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 02:20:34 2015 No.6456347 >>6452837 Burroughs > Wolfe > Joyce

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 02:37:23 2015 No.6456391 >>6452900 >>6452911 >>6452947 >>6454073 >>6454155 >RARE PEPES Xpppp >>>/reddit/ Fucking faggots.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 03:57:44 2015 No.6456591 >>6456391 RESPECT ART.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 04:53:37 2015 No.6456686 >>6454761 See the post the post you're replying to was replying to

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 05:57:16 2015 No.6456847 >>6455790 Of course the whole point of all my posts is that they are unimportant, but hey, philistines misunderstand and pretend to be smart as usual.

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 06:56:33 2015 No.6456988

>>6452837
Consider this. The Joyce and Pynchon gangs are constantly belittling "genre" literature. And lo and behold, a "genre" writer that plays a similar game as Joyce and Pynchon. Therefore he must be bad.

"Genre" literature has constantly been dealing with current social issues. From any or no specific political standpoint. As it should be.

>>6452840
Wolfe isn't a maymay writer.

>>6452956
You kinda summed up a fallacy of modernism in a few sentences. "Hurr, people have written about feuding families. Therefore I shall write about a masturbating cuckold."

Not that modernism isn't bad per se. But the whole "saw it, did it, what's next" makes modernists shy away from variations on a theme. Because that
>implies
a tradition.

And speaking of modernists in general, this should be mentioned:

http://exiledonline.com/david-foster-wallace-portrait-of-an-infinitely-limited-mind/

>And there’s often a second, bigger pitfall right around the corner – that “experimental” fiction goes hand in hand with progressive politics while right-wingers are a bunch of toffs who humph at anything written or painted after 1900. True, you still have a few Roger Kimball and Hilton Kramer types who hate rock music, swear words, “postmodernism,” and embalmed-shark sculptures, but not all reactionaries are that scrupulous. Christian fundamentalists – the biggest troglodytes of all – will happily mutilate any music style, from rap to goth to heavy metal, if they’re convinced it’ll “win” young souls. And Aronofsky’s certainly happy to make film-schoolish propaganda for his Republican, corporate Medicis. He’s not the only fancy director Siebel’s poached, either – Tony Kaye, Wally Pfister and Alexandro Gonzalez Iñárritu have also filmed his meth ads. Anyone still think right-wingers are squeamish about aesthetics? Shit, half of the original, 20th-Century modernists ended up on the Axis side.

The article doesn't mention Gertrude Stein. Pity, because she really wins the prize.

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 07:08:09 2015 No.6457019

>>6453008
>maps
I have Shadow of the Torturer and 1/5 of Claw of the Conciliator, so I'm going to pretend that I haven't read this:

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=469

So they are mentioning the cold south. The land in the north is called Ascia (from the greek "no shadow"). If it's on Earth, then it should take place in Africa, South America or maybe Australia.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 07:09:05 2015 No.6457024 >>6457019 It's set in South America

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 07:12:32 2015 No.6457033 >>6457024 I "don't know" yet. ;-)

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 08:31:12 2015 No.6457179 >>6457019 That's a really interesting article. Any others you'd like to share?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 09:47:12 2015 No.6457399 >>6457179 This is interesting: ofblog blogspot se/2007/12/gene-wolfe-book-of-new-sun-citadel-of.html

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 11:22:19 2015 No.6457665 >>6454765 Well Borges is a fantastical writer, so it is not surprising he is influenced by Borges.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 14:44:05 2015 No.6458563 >>6457019 There's several hints in the books that allude to it being in South America besides those you mentioned. Many terms Severian uses are south american, i.e. pampas, jacal. Moreover, a mountainous mid-region suggests the Andes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 15:59:58 2015 No.6458850 >>6458563 And the Apu Punchau

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 18:07:38 2015 No.6459458 >>6458563 Severian's favorite beverage is mate.

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/lit/ - Literature