/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.6369230]

Is there any philosophy that is more intellectually and emotionally satisfying than Zen?

[Anonymous No.6369243]

>>6369230
/lit/ - literature

[Anonymous No.6369299]

>>6369230
hedonism
perhaps epicurism

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.6369319]

>>6369299
Yes.

[CLOCK !0KI74GxO2U No.6369332]

Marxism. There is nothing more emotionally satisfying then living in a brotherhood of all man

https://youtu.be/QfrAXZC7GKA?t=42m57s

[Anonymous No.6369343]

Madhyamaka

[Anonymous No.6369345]

>>6369332
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM9erS90gTE

>Zizek

[Anonymous No.6369353]

>>6369299
>epicurism

>Unnecessary and, especially, artificially produced desires were to be suppressed. Since learning, culture, and civilization as well as social and political involvements could give rise to desires that are difficult to satisfy and thus result in disturbing one's peace of mind, they were discouraged.

Discouraging learning is the opposite of intellectual satisfaction.

[Anonymous No.6369361]

xenu

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.6369402]

>>6369353
Where's that from?
1. These are suggestions to avoid pains
2. He and his friends would discuss all sorts of things.

[Anonymous No.6369418]

>>6369402
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism#Philosophy

[Anonymous No.6369423]

>>6369230
If Zen is emotionally satisfying, you're not really practicing it. You're reading some New Age version of "be in the present moment" self-help book that has nothing to do with Zen. Trust me I lived in a Zen temple in Japan and there's nothing "emotionally satisfying" in it. It's torture. Potentially life-transforming torture. But torture.

[A Piece of Truth No.6369425]

One day Mara, the Evil One, was travelling through the villages of India with his attendants. he saw a man doing walking meditation whose face was lit up on wonder. The man had just discovered something on the ground in front of him. Mara’s attendant asked what that was and Mara replied, "A piece of truth."

"Doesn’t this bother you when someone finds a piece of truth, O Evil One?" his attendant asked. "No," Mara replied. "Right after this, they usually make a belief out of it."

[Anonymous No.6369429]

Yes, Theravada, in particular the Forest Tradition

[Anonymous No.6369440]

>>6369429
Zen stems from the Mahayana school, though it does share similarities with the Theravada Forest school because of their practices of fundamentalist Buddhism.

[Anonymous No.6369441]

>>6369230
western metaphysics

[Anonymous No.6369445]

>>6369230
Haruhiism

[Anonymous No.6369449]

>>6369440
>fundamentalist Buddhism.
Babbys understanding of Buddhist history! How cute!

[Anonymous No.6369452]

>>6369423
How was it toture?

[Anonymous No.6369462]

>>6369449
fundamental in the sense that they disassociate themselves from practices and mantras much like the Buddha did during the period when he attained Enlightenment. And I see you have not yet disassociated yourself from your ego. I was just stating a historical fact on lineage my friend.

[Anonymous No.6369466]

>>6369402
I'm curious what you mean when you say "he and his friends would discuss all sorts of things". Are you referring to a specific text? If so, which? I'm looking through The Epicurus Reader for my seminar on Epicureanism and his only surviving works are the few letters to Diogenes Laertius and a few fragments from select other works.

[Anonymous No.6369478]

>>6369452
Wake up at 3.45 AM? Work 12 hours (hard manual labor) , even in heavy rain, knee deep in the mud in the rice field? 4 hours zazen (ie. staring at the wall in half-lotus) on NON-meditation days? The ego screams at you all the time: "GET OUT! GET ME OUT OF HERE!" Isn't that torture? There is some joy and freedom in that torture though. I never felt freer paradoxically. When I came back to society, I felt in shackles again. Even though I can do whatever I want. We're slaves to ""our"" desires, so when you go into a setting with zero personal freedom, paradoxically you feel freer, liberated from the crutch of desire. In the temple you had exactly 45 minutes free time a day, that's it. And once I was too slow in the sweet potato field and so they asked me if I want to use my free time to finish the work. Of course I said yes, and they seemed happy about it. So even the 45 minutes you have, you're supposed to freely give them up for others. It feels simultaneously like being in a labour camp like a gulag, AND like being incredibly joyful and free simultaneously. It doesnt make sense but thats how it felt. The hardest thing for me wasnt work, it was meditation because my knees hurt so much that I had tears coming down my cheeks, and I also hated lunch and dinner. I was very hungry after work but I was afraid of dinner. You cant just say ok I worked 10 hours straight now I sit down and eat... no, there are 10000 rules to follow, how to hold chopstick, when to hold this and that, how to pour your soup, what to say, what hand gesture to make if you want more soup, and you're explained all this only once...everything is structured so that you never relax and "take it easy", that you are constantly mindful. the food is bland and no taste, again on purpose.

The Zen experience in Japan is VERY different from reading a Shunryu Suyuki or Alan Watts book.

[Anonymous No.6369498]

>>6369478
Thank you for this post.

[Anonymous No.6369499]

>>6369478
you make me want to go

[Anonymous No.6369511]

Kasan instructed saying, "To study is called 'hearing.' To complete study is called
'neighboring.' That which transcends these two is 'true passing.'"

A monk stepped forth and asked, "What is 'true passing?'" Kasan said, "Knowing how to beat the drum."

The monk asked again, "What is the true reality?" Kasan said, "Knowing how to beat the drum."

The monk asked again, "I do not ask about 'Just mind, just Buddha'; what is "not mind, not Buddha?' Kasan said, "Knowing how to beat the drum."

The monk asked again, "When a perfectly enlightened person comes, how should I treat him?" Kasan said, "Knowing how to beat the drum."

[Anonymous No.6369512]

>>6369462
>fundamental in the sense that they disassociate themselves from practices and mantras much like the Buddha did during the period when he attained Enlightenment
The Pali Canon was written hundreds of years after Buddha's passing away, are you aware of that? Are you aware that in the Pali Canon, there are also spells and invocations? (Paritta) There is no "fundamental Buddhism". The Theravadins are less fundamental than Mahanists actually, because they rely on Abdihdarma which is an atomist metaphysics of mental events. Mahayana though relies on Nikayas purely for instance the idea of Tathagatagarbha comes from Nikaya "luminous mind".

>And I see you have not yet disassociated yourself from your ego.
Who noticed that? Your ego? Or pure egoless compassionate wisdom?
We all have an ego, buddy. We need it to function in society.
The only people who claim to be "egoless" are Youtube quacks who make money off of credulous _New Agers.

[Anonymous No.6369553]

Pessimism

[Anonymous No.6369554]

The student Doko came to a Zen master, and said: “I am seeking the truth. In what state of mind should I train myself, so as to find it?”

Said the master, “There is no mind, so you cannot put it in any state. There is no truth, so you cannot train yourself for it.”

“If there is no mind to train, and no truth to find, why do you have these monks gather before you every day to study Zen and train themselves for this study?”

“But I haven’t an inch of room here,” said the master, “so how could the monks gather? I have no tongue, so how could I call them together or teach them?”

“Oh, how can you lie like this?” asked Doko.

“But if I have no tongue to talk to others, how can I lie to you?” asked the master.

Then Doko said sadly, “I cannot follow you. I cannot understand you.”

“I cannot understand myself,” said the master.

[Anonymous No.6369657]

Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nope.

[Evola « Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Kid !vKJYJAzBlI No.6370527]

Traditionalism

Marxism is literally pleb tier

[Anonymous No.6370545]

Absolute idealism.

[Anonymous No.6370552]

>>6369478
You the guy that went for four years, answered a bunch of questions a couple of months ago? That was a dope thread, thx

[Anonymous No.6370566]

>>6369478
I experienced something like this living in a Madrassa. Like you said, waking up at 3:30, no free time, constantly structured, no going out when you want or doing what you want. The ego constantly screams to get out, but you can't.

[Anonymous No.6370587]

>>6370566
Well I hope that this desire is not the ego.
I am in a situation far less strict that you two and all I want is to leave it, but once you are out, the desire to be freer evaporates so quickly that you wonder why it is here and if it was you all along and even more so since it seems quite common after all.

[Anonymous No.6370593]

>>6370527
Traditionalism is emotionally satisfying if you haven't studied history. In no way is it intellectually satisfying, though.

[Anonymous No.6370611]

>>6370587
I don't know much about Zen, but Islam is similar to ancient catholicism with its emphasis on self-denial. The ego or nafs in arabic always wants to enjoy itself, not go against itself. It is torturous like the other guy said, but long term self denial like that is incredibly beneficial.

[Evola « Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Kid !vKJYJAzBlI No.6370616]

>>6370593
>Traditionalism is emotionally satisfying if you haven't studied history. In no way is it intellectually satisfying, though.

Traditionalism is only not emotionally satisfying to delusional leftists.
And it is the most intellectual ideology today

[Anonymous No.6370619]

>>6370611
do you believe that you must be enrolled at a young age, or even adults of 30 or 40 years of age can change in such a manner ?

[Anonymous No.6370623]

>>6370527
>Traditionalism
to what tradition this doctrine relates ?

[Anonymous No.6370625]

>>6369423

So you can only truly be Zen if you're in a monastery?

Get out of here nigga, you haven't understood shit of buddhism.

[Anonymous No.6370633]

>>6370619
I went there when I was 27. I found it very difficult, but not to the point that I'd break. I was one of the oldest people living inside, though there were a few older guys around 30. There were older people, but they lived outside with their wife/kids. They didn't benefit so much because they didn't have to suffer at all... just attend classes then go home. Most people will think it's crazy, but suffering is a great teacher.

[Evola « Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Kid !vKJYJAzBlI No.6370652]

>>6370623

[Anonymous No.6370664]

>>6370527
Libertarianism is literally the only sensible choice because it allows all the people in the picture ride the vehicle of their choice without bitching about it for no reason.

[Evola « Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Kid !vKJYJAzBlI No.6370673]

>>6370664
>Libertarianism is literally the only sensible choice because it allows all the people in the picture ride the vehicle of their choice without bitching about it for no reason.

Libertarianism allows for degeneracy. We need a strong monarchy led by tradition to prevent this

[Anonymous No.6370680]

>>6369353
It really isn't. Learning just turns into a neverending habit where you keep cramming your brain with superfluous information that often only brings cognitive dissonance and anxiety.

intellectual satisfaction is feeling like you know enough to live a good life, not like you always need to learn more.

[Anonymous No.6370684]

>>6370593

Uhm, I'm a historian and don't necessarily disagree with the basic tennets of traditionalism. You need to drop the "le contingency" postmodern crap as the only way to do historiography today.

[Anonymous No.6370686]

>>6370673
Other peoples private degeneracy is none of your business.

We need a strong monarchy led by liberty to prevent people like you and other authoritarian proto-Marxists who can't deal with other people having private property(both of the physical and intellectual nature).

[Anonymous No.6370689]

>>6370673
>>Libertarianism allows for degeneracy
it allows for a very adaptable system whose workings please everybody under the system.

The Liberalisms are unbeatable.

[Evola « Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Kid !vKJYJAzBlI No.6370698]

>>6370686
>Other peoples private degeneracy is none of your business.
so in other words: stop liking what I don't like/muh freedoms. lol


"I am often accused of interfering in the private lives of citizens. Yes, if I did not, had I not done that, we wouldn’t be here today. And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn’t be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters – who your neighbour is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit, or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think."

Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, Straits Times, 20 April 1987


>We need a strong monarchy led by liberty to prevent people like you and other authoritarian proto-Marxists who can't deal with other people having private property(both of the physical and intellectual nature).

liberty and human nature are incompatible.
Liberty and monarchy is just delusional
also you seem butthurt.

>>6370689
>it allows for a very adaptable system whose workings please everybody under the system.
and does nothing to punish degeneracy

[Anonymous No.6370701]

>>6370689
What about roads, you fucking imbecil? You really think everyone is gonna be able to afford them? Toll booths on every intersection? Your hick ideology is shit and you gotta really be brainwashed to believe in it.

[Anonymous No.6370710]

>>6370689
libertarianism is neckbeard fantasy, but centrist liberalism is the most successful political meme of all time because it keeps everyone just satisfied enough not to rebel

[Anonymous No.6370711]

>>6370698
>stop liking what I don't like/muh freedoms. lol
Trivializing it doesn't make it any less true you moron.

also
>quoting a non-European on the topic of liberty and government
lmao
Liberty is the paragon of European culture. Of course it doesn't mean much to non European who can't fully comprehend it.

>liberty and human nature are incompatible.
Prove it.
>Liberty and monarchy is just delusional
Not true.

>also you seem butthurt.
proto-Marxists get me butthurt

[Anonymous No.6370724]

>>6370711
>non-European can't comprehend this.

Why is this? I'm from Chile, and it has undoubtedly benefited from a high-degree of economic and individual liberty, but the idea of freedom is NEVER discussed nor given any merit or importance, neither by political, academic or just social settings. Of course there are those who are libertarian minded, but they make up such a small minority that it is socially irrelevant. Seems to be the case with almost every non-European country. Why?

[Anonymous No.6370740]

>>6370724
I'm not 100% sure why it is so but I would say the main reason is that it's just so ingrained in our culture that we just can't deal without it anymore.

I read a metaphysical argument some months ago that basically attributed this to our "european soul" or something of the sort. But I wasn't fully convinced by that, and frankly I don't think I fully understood that point of view.

[Anonymous No.6370741]

This thread was getting interesting, instead it turns into a libertarian shit slinging fest

[Anonymous No.6370760]

>>6369230
I'll just go ahead and say it: Stirner.

[Anonymous No.6370762]

>>6369332
I hate this new fashion/music trend

LOL I put Japanese characters next to philosophers, isn't vaporwave so cool :^)))))

[Anonymous No.6370768]

>>6370710
>>6370701
yes the difference between the liberals, the libertarians is just a the degree of liberty brought by the fiscality and the redistribution of the wealth of the state. This degree of liberty permits the adaptability to the systems already in place which are not liberal and it permits also that the systems which are already liberal to move from liberal to libertarian and vice versa following the people's choice.

You do not escape, once you enter the dualism of the two branches of the liberalism. You only oscillates between the two.


And the road problem is a fallacy since not a single country is a virgin country, you never start from scratch.

[Anonymous No.6370775]

>>6370740
I'm gonna attempt to give it some thought to this.

I think it's because the historical context that the people of European decent have been through. Powerful monarchies, authoritarianism, aristocracy and many other socio-economic systems that very explicitly go against individual and economic freedom. For other countries, take Chile, the people do not relate very well to their European ancestors, and even though they themselves were under monarchy in its conception, it seems but a glimpse within our national history. Therefore, the ideology of freedom has never been relevant to such high degree in comparison with Europeans. As a result, infringements to this freedom go unnoticed and not given much resistance.

[Anonymous No.6370797]

>>6370625

huhuh yea even when im on league of legends im zen and mindful huhu......................................

[Evola « Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Kid !vKJYJAzBlI No.6370813]

>>6370711
>Trivializing it doesn't make it any less true you moron.
literally butthurt that other people don't like freedom kek


>also
>>quoting a non-European on the topic of liberty and government
>lmao
>Liberty is the paragon of European culture. Of course it doesn't mean much to non European who can't fully comprehend it.
obvious entryist

>liberty and human nature are incompatible.
>Prove it.
give me a list of long lasting libertarian countries.
oh right.

>Liberty and monarchy is just delusional
>Not true.
because thats happened before

[Anonymous No.6370828]

>>6369512
Just want to add that Abhidharma isn't restricted to Theravada only, but their version is specific to them.

[Anonymous No.6370844]

>>6370813
Not liking freedom makes you a proto-Marxist


>give me a list of long lasting libertarian countries.
gibe me a list of long lasting countries with access to the internet

>because thats happened before
napoleon comes as an obvious example

[Anonymous No.6370862]

>>6370652
you're the most spooked out motherfucker on this board and you don't even seem to care

keep on slaving toward evola's sacred ideology my amigo

[Anonymous No.6370886]

>>6369478
Awesome post.
>>6370552
Link pls?

[Anonymous No.6370912]

>>6370698
>so in other words: stop liking what I don't like
>Doesn't see the irony in sarcastically using this phrase when he wants people to stop liking things he sees as "degeneracy"

[Anonymous No.6371030]

>>6369230
How the fuck is Zen intellectually satisfying. The only satisfying concept about it is the dialectics. Yet, it completely lacks its development, such as negativity (adorno) and authenticity (Heidegger).

[Anonymous No.6371123]

>>6370886
I think that this is probably the one
>>/lit/thread/S6121653#p6122274

[Anonymous No.6371135]

>>6371123
post it on the current buddhism general

[Anonymous No.6371176]

>>6371030

>Yet, it completely lacks its development, such as negativity (adorno) and authenticity (Heidegger).

Felt good after writing that?

[Anonymous No.6371187]

>>6370797
And who are you to determine that?

[Anonymous No.6371209]

>>6369230
Trendy white kid pop-orientalist pseudo-religious hipster detected.

>>6371030
OP isn't actually familiar enough with Buddhism to know that Chan/Zen views intellectual development as a distraction or possible hindrance towards enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.6371245]

>>6371209
Kek you're that same guy who made that Buddhism thread talking shit about white kids liking Buddhism or something.

Your ass got BTFO so hard, I was in literal tears.

[Anonymous No.6371260]

>>6371245
>Your ass got BTFO so hard

Uh, no, not while I was there. People told me I was a bad Buddhist and left in tears.

I never objected to white people being Buddhists also. I objected to people who like to pretend that they're Buddhists because that's the chic thing to do.

[Anonymous No.6371273]

>>6369230
May you achieve liberation from ignorance moorkh

[Anonymous No.6371277]

>>6371260
Nah you got BTFO.

Refer now to this post >>6371187
You can think whatever you want but that's entirely irrelevant and tantamount to ego wankery on your end. What matters is how THEY feel about their faith.

[Anonymous No.6371296]

>>6371277
>Nah you got BTFO.

You must be thinking of another thread and another OP then.

>What matters is how THEY feel about their faith.

Bullshit. Their faith isn't genuine. It's an accessory they wear to be cool.

[Anonymous No.6371312]

Christianity

[Anonymous No.6371319]

>>6371296
Not that guy but I remember you getting intellectual rekt pretty hard it was actually kind of hard for me to watch. I would be too scared to comment ever again if I got trashed that badly.

Congrats on having a the courage to put your dignity aside and risk it all again.

[Anonymous No.6371321]

>>6371296

Are you sure?
What's it with you 'critical' dorks and everything a white person does is bad and stupid?

>if he's a Christian, "faux news xD"
>if he's a hippie, "stupid New Age fucktard"

I guess we can only convert to Islam and not get any criticism from you guys.

[Anonymous No.6371332]

>>6371319
>Not that guy

Right.

Anyway, you'll have to refer me to the point at which I was "BTFO" in that thread. I'm not sure how long the discussion lasted but while I was there the best anyone could manage was tearfully telling me that I was a bad Buddhist on account of my indignation.

[Anonymous No.6371354]

>>6371321
Buddhism isn't an ethnic religion. There's no tie between religiosity and heritage. White people can be perfectly valid Buddhists but not when they're embracing Buddhism insofar as it's as something unique and foreign from the "mystical east."

In my experience, that's exactly why many white people pretend to be Buddhists. They've rejected their Christian upbringing and selected its substitute solely on the basis of how cool it is.

[Anonymous No.6371382]

>>6371354
Its also annoying when white people talk about Buddhism as Science + Asian "primitive garbage". Just needs a bit of washing and its all good!!

[Anonymous No.6371393]

>>6371354
In the book "Stuff White people like", this is called "Anybody but Jesus" syndrome

[Evola « Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Kid !vKJYJAzBlI No.6371654]

>>6370844
>Not liking freedom makes you a proto-Marxist

laughinggirls.jpg

[Anonymous No.6371682]

>all these corpses fighting for their ghosts

[Anonymous No.6371693]

>>6369553
you're the faggot with the "le schope ist le comedic gengius XDDD"
GTFO and take your shitty line of thought with you
>Pessimism
>mfw

[Anonymous No.6372083]

>>6371123
Thanks.

[Anonymous No.6372211]

>>6369478
Sounds like the ego was right.

[Anonymous No.6372228]

>>6369478

>I feel happy being a slave and killing my will

Truly powerful, Nietzsche is totally right

[Anonymous No.6372236]

Why teh fuck would you do this jesus christ

oriental philosophy
"just do voluntary slavery and you'll be enlightened srs bro"

[Anonymous No.6372243]

>>6370527
>not embracing plebdom

[Foucault !!8WvUZxvX53M No.6372248]

>>6370527

>Traditionalism

[Anonymous No.6372262]

>>6370527
is this in picture in favour of capitalism because it's the most efficient one

[Anonymous No.6372495]

>>6371332
Too cringe for me to read again. You know exactly where you got fukt.
>>/lit/thread/S6317129

[Anonymous No.6372531]

>>6369478
This post convinced me Buddhism is stupid as fuck.

[Anonymous No.6372601]

have you tried marijuanas?

[Anonymous No.6374195]

>>6369478
Interesting. How long did you live there, what do you do now? I read an article about a person who was in some silent retreat who said the same. Torturous but ultimately freeing experience. Then there is this woman who lived in a fucking cave for 12 years.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/may/15/buddhist-retreat-religion-first-person

They sound romantic but I could never do it, I'd crack in a week. That being said I would've lost my will to live without existentialism, 'mindfulness' and zen type philosophies. I'm starting to think Peter Watts' Blindsight had a good point. Consciousness is just a maladaptive side effect of evolution.

[Anonymous No.6374227]

I don't know I am pretty satisfied and humbled when I look at Hubble deep field or look up at the sky.
I guess a form of materialism

[Anonymous No.6374232]

>>6374227
I would call it ataraxia. I've read astronauts in space feel it very well when looking at earth from the outside. It's what keeps me moving too, nothing matters so everything is fine.

[Anonymous No.6374401]

>>6372531
Christian monasticism is the same. Although less labor.

[Anonymous No.6374453]

>>6370652

Seems devastatingly impractical. What about the police? taxes? Your philosophy has brought me nothing but frustration. Zen kicks its ass.

[Anonymous No.6374480]

>>6374195
>>http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/may/15/buddhist-retreat-religion-first-person
>I felt my body should be male

[Anonymous No.6374536]

>>6374195
...hardly maladaptive, I'd say. Seems to be working great for Mammalia. I mean, we're miserable, but we survive like motherfuckers.

[Anonymous No.6375555]

>>6372495
Still just seeing a lot of butthurt directed against me.

I imagine you were pretty sore yourself to be carrying on like this, you child.

[Anonymous No.6375747]

>>6375555
Ah okay, you're just delusional. You couldn't possibly be wrong. How could you? You know far more than us right?

You study and know of Buddhism and while you may not necessarily follow it, you're a slave to the one thing it teaches you to get rid of, the ego.

[Anonymous No.6375805]

>>6370680
>rote learning is the only kind of learning
>this negro

[Anonymous No.6375958]

>>6374195
>http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/may/15/buddhist-retreat-religion-first-person
Somehow I always feel people like this are bullshitting about how extremely wonderful life, especially theirs, is.

[Anonymous No.6376473]

>>6369425
Fuck.

[Anonymous No.6376600]

>>6374401
Christian monasticism, depending on the tradition, can easily be as tough as that zen stuff. Although I agree it's equally stupid.

[Anonymous No.6376608]

>>6369425
stirnercore as fuck

[Anonymous No.6376635]

>>6369299
I've generally found that enjoyment of life comes from experiencing the complete array of human emotion including sorrow, anger, frustration and annoyance.

[Anonymous No.6376842]

>>6376635
are you suggesting hedonists don't experience those?