/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.6203324]

Should I read A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man before Ulysses? Does it matter?

[Anonymous No.6203335]

it won't take long

you could have started it already

[Anonymous No.6203341]

>>6203335
Well the problem is I've already started Ulysses. I'm just wondering if I should stop and read Portrait first.

[Anonymous No.6203344]

>>6203324
Start with the Greeks.

[Anonymous No.6203347]

When in doubt between doing and not doing, always choose to do.

[Anonymous No.6203349]

Just start with Ulysses if you really want to. Ulysses is largely self-contained. Just make sure to pick up some good essaybooks to go with it so you can get some detailed analysis while you read. My first Ulysses readthrough was laborious, but my second was enlightening to the point I was excited and jumping up and down (no joke) while reading because it all started making sense in all its brilliance.

just make sure you realize ahead of time that it requires a lot more effort than anything you've probably read before.

[Anonymous No.6203355]

>>6203344
>>6203347
Probably good advice

>>6203349
Yeah, I'm very busy so in the last few days I've re-read the first episode (Telemachus) three or four times and seem to catch something new each time. Haven't yet made it to the second.

[Anonymous No.6203371]

>>6203324
Start with Portrait. There are several references to it in Ulysses. Having it as a base will help you to navigate Ulysses.

[Anonymous No.6203373]

>>6203355
>Yeah, I'm very busy so in the last few days I've re-read the first episode (Telemachus) three or four times and seem to catch something new each time. Haven't yet made it to the second.

don't worry about hurrying along. It's literally okay if it takes you months to get through. What do you think of that brilliant opening scene? My idea is that Dedalus is the "fearful jesuit" because he profanes the lord in silence and lukewarm through the "killing of his mother", and thus slinks up the tower towards the prelate, Mulligan (also, "Jesuit" is in my mind an ultimate Catholic insult, I grew up in a DeSalesian parish and the priests would commonly jest at jejune jesuits' expenses.) Mulligan is the papal figure of blasphemy, and Dedalus the unsure sinner. Mulligan is frolicking in his sin, Dedalus somber and thoughtful over it. I think the contrast sets the character of Dedalus up really nicely.

[Anonymous No.6203378]

>>6203349

Essaybooks? Like what? What kind of info would I need for Ulysses? I've already read Portrait

[Anonymous No.6203381]

>>6203349
This. Ulysses is a book you've only read if you've read it twice. You don't need to read the rest of his work to read it. If I was going to tell you to read one thing before you read it, I'd say re-read or read Hamlet, because there's a chapter that is an argument about Hamlet.

[Anonymous No.6203393]

>>6203378

Reading portrait is unimportant. A well versed understanding of the Iliad (and much more importantly the Odyssey), relatively detailed knowledge of the history of the Catholic Church, familiarity with the teachings of Augustine and Aquinas (especially the latter), Greek military history, Irish Folklore and perhaps a cursory knowledge of Gaeilge, and definitely an entire readthrough of the Bible is what's ACTUALLY necessary to get a lot out of Ulysses.

[Anonymous No.6203400]

>>6203393
>>6203381

oh yes and Hamlet as this anon mentioned is a must in addition the list I gave.

[Anonymous No.6203404]

>>6203393

So it's basically a book for Irish Catholics that were educated in ancient Greek/Roman history/lit, then?

I appreciate the rundown, but holy shit

[Anonymous No.6203408]

Read Dubliners first

[Anonymous No.6203425]

You should read Portrait for just how good it is. The Sermons are beautiful so is the conflict within Stephen.

[Anonymous No.6203447]

> I was excited and jumping up and down (no joke) while reading because it

I want all these fucking nerds to get off /lit/

[Anonymous No.6203454]

>>6203447

le anti intellectualism meem from reddit x)

get off of /lit/ and go read Slaughterhouse-Five and get a So It Goes asshole tatoo on your neck

[Anonymous No.6203463]

>>6203404
>So it's basically a book for Irish Catholics that were educated in ancient Greek/Roman history/lit, then?

well Joyce was exactly that, he was a reader and fan of Aquinas and Greek histories from the time he was a preteen, so yes

> I appreciate the rundown, but holy shit

hence find an essaybook or something at a local university library. Or even a couple. Maybe an annotations book (or really, volumes of books, expect 1000+ pages of annotations.)

I'm not trying to scare you off, rather I'm just trying to tell you that Ulysses is no small work and that you must go in prepared. It is totally worth it however

[Anonymous No.6203662]

>>6203454
you sir are a gentleman and a scholar.

[Anonymous No.6203695]

>>6203463
>read long winded sentence
>don't understand any of it
>look up its meaning in annotation companion
>read three pages on the sentence
>ah, so that's what he meant! joyce really was a genius.
>thinking this is in any way "worth" anything, let alone "it"

[Anonymous No.6203713]

Yes and yes. Get some background knowledge of Stephen and there's a nice difficulty curve in Joyce (Dubliners -> Portrait -> Ulysses -> Wake).

[Anonymous No.6203726]

>>6203373
Jesuits are some of the most well educated priests and were in charge of educating the nobility of Europe.

It's not an insult, it's a statement about his educated status you numbskull.

[Anonymous No.6203730]

>>6203713

I feel like Stephen Hero would be good, too, since it was a precursor to Portrait.

>>6203695

I think it's "worth it" if you're really into obfuscated and layered meanings, and like deciphering things. But imo that's way too much goddamn work for one book (which is why I'll never read FInnegan's Wake, just seems like such masturbatory bullshit)

[Anonymous No.6203740]

>>6203425
>the sermons are beautiful
Yeah OK man if you say so, I think you might want to reread that book and check if you missed something.

[Anonymous No.6204010]

>>6203740
Were they not beautifully written? I think you might want to re-read it.

[Anonymous No.6204258]

>>6203404
No not at all, no more than it is a book for Jewish immigrants in Catholic countries with modest business acumen and neurotic marriages.

The material circumstances of the characters are more or less inconsequential (except for Steven if you are reading him as a mock up of the author) it's the delivery of the characters that is important. However to fully appreciate the consequences of their delivery you are going to have to go out of your way to familiarize yourself with the historical, educational, national and religious realities of the characters worlds. Joyce will clue you to things but the effect would be lost if he guided you. And once you understand the characters on their own terms you can start moving back out again and look at what Joyce is saying about a hero, myth, tradition, cycle, life and belief.

Basically you need to get deep into the microcosm of the book, which is good on its own terms as far as story and language and style go, though quite demanding, before you can recontextualize yourself into the macrocosom of the work where all the "profundity" is, though that requires an investment as well if you aren't aware of the religious, mythic, revolutionary and trinitarian themes of western culture.

[Anonymous No.6204289]

Ulysses is basically a sequel to Portrait, so if contextualizing any of the emotions, feelings, ambitions & pathos of one of the two main characters is important to you, then yes.

For bonus points, read Dubliners first & spot the characters from those stories in both the books that follow.

[Anonymous No.6204293]

not really. unless you feel like treating it like an exercise instead of just a book

[Anonymous No.6204304]

>>6204010
Yes, but I didn't see much beauty in the message, although Stephen's religious conflict is very beautiful and I guess they are instrumental in the poetry and extremity of it. They were, of course, fantastically written.

[Anonymous No.6204470]

I started reading portrait and it's my first Joyce book. He sounds like an actual faggot, the use of language is cringeworthy.

[Anonymous No.6204503]

>>6204304
I can see the misunderstanding, no the message wasn't really beautiful more terrifying. But the way it is written, the vision of damnation that follows. My bad anon, I should have phrased my post better.

[Anonymous No.6204505]

>>6204470

> He sounds like an actual faggot, the use of language is cringeworthy.

le ironic face