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/lit/ - Literature

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5933486 No.5933486 [Reply] [Original]

How do you deal with the "the curtains are just blue" crowd, /lit/?

It's starting to feel like there's an entire generation out there completely incapable of grasping literary criticism

>> No.5933492

What's the point of stating that the curtains are blue as a lone sentence if it doesn't hold any meaning?

>> No.5933496

if you actually think there's a symbol in curtain color you need to get some help

>> No.5933505

>>5933492
>>5933496
This is starting well.

>> No.5933508

>>5933486
I don't. If I meet someone in real life who thinks that I smile and nod. Depending on how well I know them I'll maybe say that I disagree, but whatever.

Only bonafide autists actually care whether other people hold the same beliefs you do. The real world isn't 4chan

>> No.5933510

The hunt for symbols, motifs and themes should end after high school

>> No.5933522

>>5933505
check yourself for autism, m8

>> No.5933599

>>5933486

As with >>5933508 I just ignore those people; even if I were to show them that there's something more to reading than just reducing everything to some equivalent of "IT JUST MAKES THE WORLD THE AUTHOR WRITES MORE REALISTIC", it's unlikely that they have enough interest in what they're reading anyway for them to ever apply it in a way that might allow for interesting or insightful conversation.

This past semester, we discussed Baudelaire for the first two months or so, and there was way too much "MAYBE HE BRINGS UP FLOWERS CAUSE HE JUST LIKES FLOWERS" bullshit; one can only smile and die just a little inside. Whatevs.

>> No.5933605

>>5933508
>Only bonafide autists actually care whether other people hold the same beliefs you do

Try not to post on /lit/ the coming year.

>> No.5933620

tell them about death of the author

>> No.5933651

It's either you accept the curtains are just blue and move on with your life or you try to interpret it to be a special snowflake intellectual.

>there are people on /lit/ right now who aspire to be english teachers

>> No.5933663

>>5933486
fuck em

>> No.5933668

>>5933486
Honestly? I just stopped caring about society, the world and the future of anything. I just kind of gave up and decided that things I read, interpreted, and believed were only to be important to myself and me alone. I refuse to reveal the private and most important and passionate parts of myself to be ridiculed by idiots who I don't think have, for the most part, ever really cared about anything.

>> No.5933672

>>5933486
Only autists see symbolism in everything written in a book.

>> No.5933678

>>5933672
Aren't autists supposed to be bad at symbolism?

>> No.5933681

>>5933510
Because these devices were definitely not in the mind of some of the best authors, am I right?

You need to stop reading science fiction and move on to greater things son

>> No.5933682

>>5933678
HE WENT TO THE STORE BECAUSE HE'S TRYING TO FIND HIMSELF NOT BECAUSE HE NEEDS TO BUY SOME PENCILS AND BEN-GAY


NERRRRRRRRRRRRRD!

>> No.5933684

>>5933678

Funny you note that, because yes, yes they are, hence why most writers up until this past century made use of symbolism, allegory, parables, etc., precisely because of autists who are too stupid to live.

>> No.5933691

>>5933672
>>5933651
Posts like this make me genuinely sad because it shows the immense gap between a skilled writers of previous generations and today's average reader.

Basically, the people most capable of conveying wisdom and depict their times and struggles are falling on deaf ears.

>> No.5933692

>>5933486
You don't. Subtext doesn't need to be discovered, even if it makes a more enriching story. But most authors will say even if they wrote something but a reader interprets something else, that is fine. This is because different things can have different meanings to different people. No one shares the same life experiences. The curtains may be positive to one, negative to another, or simply just blue.

Interpret what you want. Share it with others, but don't force your interpretation.

>> No.5933694

Well, a lot of the time the curtains ARE just blue. The problems arise when pseudo-intellectuals over-analyze shit and try to find hidden meanings where there are none purely so they can appear to be some 2deep4me hipster faggot.

>> No.5933697

>>5933692
>Interpret what you want. Share it with others, but don't force your interpretation.

ugh

>> No.5933703

>>5933691
my butthole smells funny

>> No.5933708

>>5933522
Maybe you should check your reading comprehension, m8.

>> No.5933713

>>5933697

What? that seems resonable

>> No.5933717

>>5933697

It's all or nothing. It's either ONE interpretation that may be multi-faceted and complex (as the author intended) or everyone's interpretation is correct.

Unfortunately we live in a world where everybody's interpretations are as valid as each other's and so we get shit like gender scientists looking for homosexuality in Hamlet.

>> No.5933722

>>5933703
yeah well maybe if you had interested in literature you'd have better things to do than smell it

>> No.5933735

i'm gonna say something that might be a bit controversial here, but i'm feeling it deep (spelled backwards is peed):

modern lit is simply not written with anything like the kind of care given to writing by people even a hundred years ago.

FACT

>> No.5933793

Is this thread just ridiculously pretentious or is there something more to it?

>> No.5933804

>>5933735
define modern

>> No.5933972

I'm new to this board, how do I get better at understanding symbolism?
>tfw I thought Moby Dick was just about a man hunting a whale

>> No.5933976

Symbolism is not a replacement for a compelling plot or interesting themes

See: The Old Man and the Sea, worst book I ever read, ernest hemingwhy

>nahhhh bro i got a lot out of him wrestling with that fish, you just dont see it

>> No.5934002

>>5933972
Be creative with your thoughts.

>> No.5934006

I don't know, I think it's hilarious that there are people ITT arguing against trying to find messages and meaning in themes. That's the point of any good book: it tries to express an overall point or meaning using words to convey it. Almost every good author except J.R.R. Tolkien does it.

>> No.5934015

>>5933496

always symbols in color

curtains are part of that

it's more obvious in movies but you're forming a mental image with text anyway

you need to get some help, like, educational help

>> No.5934018

>>5933717
Admittedly, once you get past the political angle, you can get some really interesting analyses that way. Just because they're focusing on Gender Roles and theory does not mean that they are the kind of Tumblr feminist some see as the face of the movement. Closing yourself off from the discussion of Feminism/Gender theory in general also cuts you off from interesting analysis and writing, whether you agree with them or not.

>> No.5934021

>>5933972

do drugs

>> No.5934056

>>5934015
"every colour has meaning" is as dumb as "every colour does not have meaning"

forcing symbolism into things turns them into allegory, and allegory is the worst of the worst. literature should present potentially interesting things which the reader can then interpret as he will; both taking away the possibility of interpretation and forcing an interpretation onto the audience are great ways to make unengaging material.

>> No.5934078

>>5933486

The curtains weren't blue, they were yellow. And it was wallpaper, not curtains.

Fucking rek't.

>> No.5934086

Personally, I believe that the idea of the curtains just being blue may of course be right, if the topic at hand is the writers concrete intention while he wrote that particular sentence. But being militant about it, or generalizing that viewpoint shows a blatant disregard for the fact that every text read is filtered through a subject, the reader. For the reader, the blue curtains might signify depression (if I remember the example right), and in a lot of cases, this metaphorical view supports the general tone or message of the book. Even though the author wrote the text, what the reader draws from it can and will be different. Determining which view is right is the attempt to evaluate two different subjective views: That of the author, and that of the reader. Tl;Dr : Skub-war.

>> No.5934089

>>5933691
This post is retarded. And I'll tell you why.

People have always read capital-S Shit. The only difference today is the celebrity culture of entitlement by people who want their toes sucked for writing about their lowercase-s struggles (and those who live vicariously through them. naturally.)

There's still all the immense depth in literature today as there was yesteryear. And there's still all the immense density of people who lie on both ends of the spectrum of what they insist makes a great read.

>> No.5934095

>>5934089

Fucking rek't again, I'm like a motherfucking ninja turtle tonight.

>> No.5934126

>>5934018
I fucking hate /pol/ but if you take any modern feminist/gender theory seriously then you're highly unintelligent.
They literally posit sexes are social constructs beyond genitals

>> No.5934129

The author is dead, so they're pretty much right and you can't say otherwise

>> No.5934130

>>5934126
>They literally posit sexes are social constructs beyond genitals

No they dont lol . They explicitly make a distinction between sex and gender

>> No.5934132

>>5934130
I'm in the faculty of arts in a Canadian university. They definitely think that there are literally no differences between the sexes besides genitals and hair length.

>> No.5934136

>>5934132
>I'm in the faculty of arts in a Canadian university.

is this meant to give you credibility?

>> No.5934142

>>5934132

You said they posit these are social constructs. What you're undermining in your boorish (just genitals and hair length, really?) analysis of them is the impact of social factors and how their theories assess them. Talk about unintelligent, right guys?

>> No.5934146

>>5934129
>the author is dead

You ought to join us in the 21st century. The author was in fact resuscitated years ago.

>> No.5934155

Am I in a troll thread or did /lit/ get raided?

What the fuck.

>> No.5934179

>>5933620
No essential change, the symbolism is actually even more intensified because the context becomes free flowing i.e. something can symbolize something else whether author intended it or not.

>> No.5934211

>>5933678
I would imagine so, since they tend to be limited in how they communicate to very direct and explicit communication. The subtleties and ambiguities tend to go by them, or they want to try and break it down into a formula or equation.

>> No.5934214

>>5933972
Read a book on literary symbolism.

>> No.5934221

>>5934056
Some friends of mine borrowed my copy of 'The Tree of Life' and made me come in when they were done to explain what each individual scene symbolized because I had said I felt I understood the movie pretty well.

>> No.5934238

This thread itself is a symbolic metaphor for the figurative microcosm that is /lit/, all posters of which are literally idiots.

>> No.5934301

>>5933510
Just because someone isn't holding your hand, pointing out the symbols and themes dosen't mean you shouldn't be actively searching them out in you fucking 4 yearold

>> No.5934312

>>5934301
*out in novels or books, you fucking 4 yearold

>> No.5934313
File: 122 KB, 1071x802, fuckwhatisthisshitholyfuckingassthisiscancerandassbergers.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5934313

>>5934238
Basically

>> No.5934317

>>5933708
Maybe you should have checked his dubs

>> No.5934320
File: 241 KB, 781x494, 1398391717803.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5934320

>>5933972
OH FUCK ITS NOT JUST ABOUT A MAN HUNTING A WHALE??!?!?!? OH FUCK Oh FUCK

>> No.5935239
File: 464 KB, 500x254, okguy.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5935239

>>5934238
>>5934313
>tfw faced w/ driveby comments like this

>> No.5935359
File: 93 KB, 500x684, nbyujduqyo1s5kgq3o1_500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5935359

>>5933486
well the curtains are not blue
there are no curtains

i wouldnt bother or charge them a fee for teaching them fundamentals.

>> No.5935960
File: 51 KB, 625x626, 1383277514965.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5935960

>>5934006
>Almost every good author except J.R.R. Tolkien does it.

>> No.5935975

>>5933486
>>5933691
>>5934015
Shouldn't you people still be reading your astrology report for next week?

>> No.5935976

>>5933972
You obviously haven't actually read moby dick

>> No.5936141

How can I read literature more bettah

>> No.5936153

by making books a populist medium again instead of jerkoff material for privileged losers

start by throwing out the commies and feminists

>> No.5936166

>implying this kind of minimalism isn't entirely legitimate

people that are committed to a symbolic view of books are essentially mystics and their "analysis" is really mysticism

>> No.5936188

>>5933691
>Basically, the people most capable of conveying wisdom and depict their times and struggles are falling on deaf ears.

>implying artists are wise

back to Plato
artists are soothsayers, they channel spirits and don't really know what they are talking about

>> No.5936196

>falling for the stupid shit people use to justify teaching ideology in Uni literature courses
Nah I think /lit/ are the wrong ones here. The curtains are blue and if may mean something but its better to keep that as a personal thing otherwise you have to deal with "heres my marxist interpretation of the Iliad"

>> No.5936238

>>5933510
Yeah, literature should end after high school.

>> No.5936251

>>5933510
>i read it for the plot

>> No.5936420

>>5933486
How do you deal with being a faggot, OP?

>> No.5936435
File: 18 KB, 322x485, edgar allan poe red death.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5936435

>>5933496
Pleb.

>> No.5936445

>>5936196
>Living a life without ideology
why? just end it if there's no point

>> No.5936450

>>5936251
>>5936238

I'm saying that reading and studying literature isn't just a big hunt-and-peck for empty referents like symbol and motif. Structure and form is not as monolithic and centralized as high school English teachers would have us believe

>> No.5936452

>>5936445
lol...?

How is recognizing the value of life has absolute and infinite pointless?

>> No.5936923

>>5933486
Well it really depends on the context.

>> No.5936976

>>5933486
>I'm starting to feel like young people are going to be naive and stupid, except me of course.
Man, you're insightful

>> No.5937025

How do I into literary criticism?
How do I into reading for the way it is written, rather than for the story?

>> No.5937095

>>5933668
mallarmé/10

Which probably means you're right here.

>> No.5937118

>>5933717
To be fair, Hamlet is pretty gay. Guy is supposed to avenge his father and steer back the country on the road of virtue and instead he's wasting time asking himself wether he wants to be and decices to stage a play. I know that homosexuality can strike in all families, but when it does in a royal family man does it ever produce shit.

>> No.5937125

>>5933793
This thread is conveying the death of its author.

>> No.5937158

>>5937118
Well in the case of 17th Century France it produced the very badass Philippe, Duke of Orleans (brother of Louis XIV)

He apparently would go out into battle with jewel encrusted armor and was very formidable.

>> No.5937178

>>5936166
What do you have against mysticism sir ? Mysticism is everywhere.

>> No.5937187

>>5933972
It's just a lot of aristocracy shit

>> No.5937196

>>5937158
>He apparently would go out into battle with jewel encrusted armor

That's the gay for you. They'll led armies to battle and crush entire platoons in their wake, but always in fabulous over-the-top style. Fag Philippe confirmed for less a faggot than Hamlet.

>> No.5937217

>>5933668

>I refuse to reveal the private and most important and passionate parts of myself to be ridiculed by idiots who I don't think have, for the most part, ever really cared about anything

This. And I know it's true, because at one point I had never cared about anything.

>> No.5939816

>>5937025
Someone answer this, pl0x

>> No.5940883

>>5937025
Read critical articles. Pick a book you know well and enjoy that has enough literary presence to have published articles on it, and read how they analyze and interpret the book. Accept that some of it is bullshit, that some is not, and that authorial intent is often unknown and not necessarily trustworthy. Ignore any moron who thinks that authors all make curtains blue for the same reason or lack of reasons.

>> No.5940889

>>5933486
>How do you deal with the "the curtains are just blue" crowd, /lit/?

New to /lit/, what are you talking about?

>> No.5940893

>>5934056
I bet you haven't read Divinia Comedia

>> No.5940896

>>5933486
the same way you deal with creationists

avoid them

>> No.5940902

>>5940889
People who feel the best way to deal with the unsettling notion of symbolism and depth they might not perceive in literature is to deny it exists. This allows them to feel superior over people who analyze texts while being intellectually lazy as hell, with the feeble excuse that since some analysis is wrong or doesn't reflect authorial intent, that therefore the entire practice is a waste of time. Ignore them.

>> No.5940911

>>5940902

I see, thanks.

>Ignore them.
Yeah, that's what i usually do.

Also >>5934056 sounds perfectly right

>> No.5940956

>allegory is the worst of the worst
Because the author dares to have an opinion about what their own work represents and means? A good work has a depth of authorial intent, and both symbolism and allegory if they suit that meaning, but can also be appreciated and stand alone apart from that aspect. Eliot said "genuine poetry can communicate before it is understood," and separated the instinctive "apprehension" of meaning from full understanding, which might by necessity require having read Dante, etc. If a work can't be enjoyed by both a casual reader and a scholar, that's fine, but many great texts can suit both audiences.

>> No.5940998
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5940998

>French language and literature seminar
>Le Bateau Ivre by Rimbaud
>"curtains are just blue" kid pipes up
>"Well, how can the boat see anything in the first place?"
>mfw this is an A-level course

>> No.5941124

>>5940998

Wow.