/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5457431]

Are people on ASOIAF world "dumber"?
I mean, their civilization seems to be in the Middle Ages for thousands of years.
Technology plays a bad role in Tolkien's books, but I don't see it in Asoiaf.

[Anonymous No.5457462]

Tyrion is like the only person in history to have read a book, right? Might have something to do with it.

[Anonymous No.5457474]

>>5457462
Sam too.

[Anonymous No.5457498]

>>5457431
Martin carefully explains it. The destruction of Valyria and the fall of that empire was the first step. The death of dragons (and Valyria was their breeding program) brought the magic famine, and since magic was the 'tech" most of their world's wonders used to work, it would be similar to us losing electricity. Then constant wars, and you have a kind of post-Roman Empire-fall "dark ages" where nobody can think beyond the next winter or crazy monarch. Peace and prosperity are needed to rebuild and advance civilization efficiently. I'm looking forward to The World of Ice and Fire in October, though, to really flesh out the history.

[Anonymous No.5457501]

>>5457431

It's a magical realm, I always sort of view worlds in literature as a trade off: Either you have magic and cool shit or you get to progress in technology. I look at LOTR as a kind of trabsitiot between the two, the age of men is coming as the magic leaves the world and they will soon begin progressing as in real life civilisation. Sucks for the people in ASOIAF they sort of drew the short straw seeing as they can't just indulge in magic at a whim.

[Anonymous No.5457506]

>>5457501

Transition* I'm on my phone

[Anonymous No.5457519]

>>5457498

This.

Say what you will about ASOIAF and a lot of it is valid, but I do enjoy how he addresses the absolute stall in civilization, without Valyria they've been just living in a sort of limbo, nothing changing or moving forward, just fighting wars with eachother. Jon's return as Azor Ahai will free them from this limbo, but of course we'll never see that.

[Anonymous No.5457523]

>>5457431
>Hey guys, I'm searching historical explanations in a fantasy realm fantasized by an american neckbeard

[Anonymous No.5457524]

>>5457498
They still don't have electricity even Valyria as far as I remember, and their empire last for at least 5 thousand years. cinco mil anos é aproximadamente o que temos IRL.

[Anonymous No.5457536]

>>5457431

>Technology plays a bad role in Tolkien's books

I disagree.

In his books, a certain kind of technological development plays a bad role, as the kind of technology that results from the devastation of nature.

Elfic, and Númenórean crafts are technological - and magical - too, but are issued from a necessary balance and symbiosis with nature, which is perceived as representative of the primitive spirit of the Valar, when they sung the world in harmony, unlike Melkor.

Even the dwarfish mining gets criticized over the excess greed of said race, while digging in the mountains, as an ancient evil gets awaken while doing so.

[Anonymous No.5457542]

>>5457431
It took use 2700 years to get from the horse and buggy the Greeks were using, to the train. The Egyptians were kicking around building massive Pyramids 5000 years ago, and you know what they got around with? Horse and buggy.

My point being, is that technology progressed very slowly up until 100 years ago. So, it's not particularly crazy that it's taken these guys awhile to create the internet.

[Anonymous No.5457551]

>Technology plays a bad role in Tolkien's books

I disagree.

In his books, a certain kind of technological development "plays a bad role", specifically the kind of technology that results from the devastation of nature.

Elfic, and Númenórean crafts are technological, and magical too, but make emphasis in a necessary balance and symbiosis with nature, which is perceived as representative of the primitive spirit of the Valar, when they sung the world in harmony, except for Melkor.

Even the dwarfish mining gets criticized over the excess greed of said race, when an ancient evil gets awaken while digging for riches in the mountains.

[Anonymous No.5457562]

>>5457519

Let's see how long modernity will last and how much of it has to offer besides technological gimmicks in the future.

[Anonymous No.5457568]

>>5457524
They didn't need it: they had magic. If our world's magic worked reliably, we would never have bothered to discover most of our current tech either. That's the point. >>5457523
Considering the insane amount of work and detail Martin's put into his world, it can handle this kind of examination and discussion.

[Anonymous No.5457602]

>>5457568
>Considering the insane amount of work and detail Martin's put into his world, it can handle this kind of examination and discussion.

oh please... that world is created day-per-day, Martin isn't a mega-mind, at the start he didn't even thought about the charas. have you forgotten the super jump that thirion has made at the start of the first book?

[Anonymous No.5457614]

>>5457602
>Martin isn't a mega-mind

I am pretty sure the HBO scriptwriters AND Martin - if there really is an "AND" - get close to that.

[Anonymous No.5457619]

>>5457602
I'm not saying it hasn't been a process, but he does have a 330+ page book on the world and its history due out next month, and his novels are packed with coherent references to the world's historical events. That's a shitload of work that many epic fantasy authors don't devote a fraction of the time towards as Martin did, and one of the reasons I like his work: it has that kind of Tolkienesque depth to the setting. Hell, Tolkien knew tons of stuff and languages about his world, but had no idea who Strider was when he appeared in Bree. Different auhtors plan in different ways.

[Anonymous No.5457642]

>>have massive, unpredictable winters which inevitably lead to dark ages
that is why

[Anonymous No.5457661]

>>5457619
if you like so much deep historical plots, and you read martin for that, why dont you go for some real history book? serious question

[Anonymous No.5457664]

>>5457562
this. we've had stability for half a century due to politics, but that's nothing to do

also, does anyone else drop a zero from some of his dates?

>the house of stark has reigned in winterfell for 9000 years!

what is a year there anyway? rotation around the sun? seems arbitrary in a world with asymptomatic seasons

[Anonymous No.5457678]

>>5457661
>why dont you go for some Neil Stephenson

fixed that for you

[Anonymous No.5457693]

>>5457678
/lit/ anons have at last 20 yo, r-right guys?

[Anonymous No.5457731]

>>5457661
I do read history at times (and everything else), but this is fun reading, and I like the dragons and giants, etc. I think many folks would read more about the War of Roses if it had featured some dragons.

[Anonymous No.5457734]

>>5457568
Why wasn't valyrian Magic used by Targaryen House?

[Anonymous No.5457850]

>>5457734
They tried, desperately, but magic faded when the dragons died. Spells no longer worked and the study became mostly academic. Things changed when Daenerys hatched her eggs. Remember how well the wildfire alchemy suddenly worked, etc.

[Anonymous No.5457913]

>>5457664
>The winter lasted for nine years
What, GRRM. What.

[Anonymous No.5458266]

So /lit/, who do you think is a secret Targ, and is Aegon fake?

[Anonymous No.5460030]

>>5457664
The length of seasons is just plain illogical, i agree, but certain Houses ruling for a few thousand years are explained in the books IIRC.

Whenever a major House dies out, the closest relative, or even the most loyal vassal take it's name and carry on the bloodline.

Littlefinger implied that this happened quite a few times.

This means that the current Starks are probably not the same ones that ruled Winterfell 9000 years ago.

[Anonymous No.5460767]

Their civilization is also annihilated every 7-10y by a winter which seems to be very long sometimes, leaving small groups of survivors between the ruins of the old civilization.

[Anonymous No.5460798]

>>5460030
The season lengths Are fine, just requires a planet which tilts differently than ours, and the natives not understanding it. I just don't know how they have the idea of "name days" or years without seasons

[Anonymous No.5460821]

but in tolkien's books they also spend thousand of years in the Middle ages

[Anonymous No.5460832]

>>5457850
>magic faded when the dragons died
Is it possible than the Others return is somehow related with dragons return?

[Anonymous No.5460901]

>>5460832
yes.
Also the rise of R'hllor, the Starks finding 6 direwolves and Bran having magical abilities besides varging are all related to each other.

We do not know, however, if the return of the dragons made the others return, or if the others made the dragons return.

[Anonymous No.5460902]

>>5457498
> Peace and prosperity are needed to rebuild and advance civilization efficiently.
Tell that to Europe. That whole continent was a non-stop slaughterhouse since the fall of the roman empire up until 1945.

[Anonymous No.5460949]

>>5460821
Tolkien I think honestly did not concern himself overly with the question of technology and evolution (since his world is quite magical), though to some degree the same answers as Martin's would apply: the world has been rebuilding itself since the last great wars. This is a funny response to that question:
http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/metech.htm

>>5460832
Absolutely, hence "the song of ice and fire." Dragons, walkers, direwolves (wargs, giants, and ice spiders and krakens, soon) are all awakened by the rebirth of magic. One theory I like is that there is one universal source of magic North of the Wall that fuels any and all magical phenomena such as wargs, dragons and direwolves.The Wall and Night's Watch act as a shield or forcefield holding the magic away from the rest of the world. Excluding greenseeing and warging, most of the magic we've seen performed in the series is transactional. A practitioner makes an offering of blood or a living being and that offering acts as fuel to drive the spell. This seems to be the central theme of shadow magic rituals, blood magic, and fire magic. That suggests an external source of power for those magics.
These disciplines all seem to be ones that can be learned and mastered academically if the "tide" of magic is high enough in the world to permit such things. The fact that alchemy, etc., are all working better than they have in centuries is a sign that the tide of magic is returning (which also drove the dragon-hatchings, probably: I doubt that "caused" anything, but it was one of the first manifestations, like the direwolf and cubs who came to protect the Starks). We know little of aeromancers, stormsingers, dreamwalkers, and the other forms of magic, so far, but they'll be back too. Above all, I know that Martin has answers for all these questions, and those mysteries are why I'm awaiting the next book, more so than "who will Arya kill next?" or even "Is Jon Snow Azor Ahai?"

[Anonymous No.5461391]

>>5457664
>>5457913
>>5460798
you can still measure the cycles of the moon and have months, their "years" are probably just arbitrary sets of 10 or 12 moon cycles.

[Anonymous No.5461410]

>>5461391
the thing is, the yeas are as long as ours, which is proved by the fact that their potential life expectancy matches ours.

GRRM really thought a lot about his world building (at least more than most other genre-fiction writers) but the length of years and seasons is a no-brainer

[Anonymous No.5461451]

>>5457498
still, even in the so called dark ages there was technological and cultural advancement

and Westeros does somewhat resemble Britain in the early middle ages especially the wall with civilization to the south and pagans to the north

although if you look at post roman Britain you see England being swamped by immigrants and over the wall the Picts were still painting themselves blue and slowly being converted to Christianity by a 70s police detective which isn't a much like game of thrones

[Anonymous No.5461481]

>>5461451
that seems to be a huge problem concerning all of genre-fiction.
technological improvments are almost never part of the canon.

also, Westeros is better off than the rest of the world.

Essos is still stuck in ancient times

[Anonymous No.5461613]

Is R'hllor the only god?
He seems to be the only one that really helps its followers.

[Anonymous No.5461646]

>>5461613
The Great Other is R'hllor's counterpart and has a decent chance of actually existing.

The old gods seem to exist too, otherwise wargs and greenseers wouldn't exist.

The Many Faced God grants its follwers the ability to change their appearance at will, so he should exist too.

And according to rumors regarding TWOW the Drowned God seems to have some kind of power too.

From all the gods we know, only the Seven seem to be worthless hacks.

[Anonymous No.5461662]

Progress isn't always imperative. China was stagnant for quite a while

[Anonymous No.5461712]

>>5460902
1815. The wars afterward were far more sporadic. There was what, seven? The Crimean War, Germany v. Denmark, Germany v. Austria, the Franco-Prussian War, WWI, the Russian Revolution, and WWII? Seven wars in one hundred thirty years is damn good for Europe.

[Anonymous No.5461765]

>>5461712

Spanish Civil War?

[Anonymous No.5461775]

>>5461765
FUCK.
Yeah, eight wars in 130 years is too many, other guy was right.

[Anonymous No.5461787]

>>5461775
copypasting from wikipedia to prove you wrong :

All European wars of the 19th century after 1815

1815–1817 Second Serbian Uprising
1817–1864 Russian conquest of the Caucasus
1821–1832 Greek War of Independence
1821 Wallachian uprising of 1821
1823 French invasion of Spain
1826–1828 Russo–Persian War
1827 War of the Malcontents
1828–1829 Russo-Turkish War
1828–1834 Liberal Wars
1830 Ten Days Campaign (following the Belgian Revolt)
1830–1831 November Uprising
1831 Canut revolts
1831–1832 Great Bosnian uprising
1831–1836 Tithe War
1832 War in the Vendée and Chouannerie of 1832
1832 June Rebellion
1833–1839 First Carlist War
1833–1839 Albanian Revolts of 1833–1839
1843–1844 Albanian Revolt of 1843–1844
1846 Galician slaughter
1846–1849 Second Carlist War
1847 Albanian Revolt of 1847
1847 Sonderbund War
1848–1849 Hungarian Revolution and War of Independence
1848–1851 First Schleswig War
1848–1866 Wars of Italian Independence 1848–1849 First Italian Independence War 1859 Second Italian War of Independence
1866 Third Italian War of Independence
1853–1856 Crimean War
1854 Epirus Revolt of 1854
1858 Mahtra War
1861–62 Montenegrin–Ottoman War (1861–62)
1863–1864 January Uprising
1864 Second Schleswig War
1866 Austro-Prussian War
1866–1869 Cretan Revolt
1867 Fenian Rising
1870–1871 Franco-Prussian War
1872–1876 Third Carlist War
1873–1874 Cantonal Revolution
1875–77 Herzegovina Uprising (1875–77)
1876–78 Serbo-Turkish War (1876–78)
1876–78 Montenegrin-Ottoman War (1876-1878)
1877–1878 Russo–Turkish War
1878 Epirus Revolt of 1878
1885 Serbo-Bulgarian War
1897 Greco–Turkish War

[Anonymous No.5461799]

>>5461787
Like half of those are in Balkans, that isn't what people mean by Europe.
>talking about euro tech levels and colonialism
>i'll surely be right for including europe's shitstain!

[Anonymous No.5461809]

>>5460821
>>5460949

As to Tolkien, quite apart from the technologies of the Elves, Dwarves, Numenoreans, and Dark Lords or would-be ones, remember that he is writing myth / heroic legend, in which there may be technological advancement (e. g., in Greek myth, in some versions, the Argonauts are the first people to sail the open sea, and Argo is the first ship), but there may also be a sort of common culture spanning multiple generations of characters.

>>5460949
>Excluding greenseeing and warging, most of the magic we've seen performed in the series is transactional.

I wouldn't exclude greenseeing: the greenseers we've seen are all weak or broken in some way, and the Three-Eyed Crow is essentially "plugged into" whatever power is represented by the Weirwoods - greenseers, in a sense, seem to sacrifice themselves to their ability.

>The Wall and Night's Watch act as a shield or forcefield holding the magic away from the rest of the world.

There are pretty strong suggestions that the Wall is itself built on magic in some sense.

[Anonymous No.5461830]

>>5461712
>>5461775

Irish War of Independence.

[Anonymous No.5462070]

>>5457431
Regardless of canonical reasons for technology not doing x or y, why are people complaining that the series doesn't have technological advancement? It's a fictional fantasy series, for Christ's sake.

[Anonymous No.5464290]

Asoiaf fanboys are the worst. For most of them whole asoiaf is the first fantasy serie they ever have read because of the show, they were there from the start "to the books ie oldfags" or some other petty reason.

The fun fact is that Martin is actually pretty medium writer he had to fucking whole book three to spam guest right shit because of red wedding. Still there were idiots "who didn't see it coming". For the rest of my message I sum it up

>Le witty dwarf
>Le ninja girl
>Le bastard boy whose mom is unknown rises to night watch leadership
>Le you know nothing jon snow
>2/5 book serie

[Anonymous No.5464952]

>>5457431
>christianity is shown in a most simple antagonistic manner
Guess why there are no universities there.

[Anonymous No.5465122]

Why is all fantasy set in generic medieval European settings?

Why no Asian or African or ancient Mesoamerican settings in fantasy?

[Anonymous No.5465357]

>>5465122
>Why no Asian or African or ancient Mesoamerican settings in fantasy?

It does. Even the most mainstream fantasy media utilizes these cultures extensively. Asoiaf itself has all these things.

[Anonymous No.5466626]

>>5457498
Except Valyria never conquered Westeros.

[Anonymous No.5466639]

>>5465122
Discworld.

[Anonymous No.5466748]

>>5466626
Sure it did. Of course the Doom shattered their empire, and the Targaryens were the only nobles with dragons who escaped the destruction of Valyria, but they certainly came to Westeros and took over. Aegon was anointed king by the High Septon in Oldtown, leading to the unification of the Seven Kingdoms under Targaryen rule from the Iron Throne, starting a dynasty that lasted nearly 300 years.

[Anonymous No.5466975]

>>5460949
Can I have that folder in your image?

[Anonymous No.5466980]

That's what you get when you live on a continent that has an Ice Age every decade or so.

[Anonymous No.5466989]

>>5457551
>Elfic, and Númenórean crafts are technological, and magical too, but make emphasis in a necessary balance and symbiosis with nature

Yet the Elfs (particularly the Noldo kind) and the Numenorean are prime example of hubris. Feänor is basically the elfic Faust. The whole race of Feänor and some of his half-brothers (which is a good deal of the higher Elfs in Beleriand) where even cursed by the Valar.

[Anonymous No.5467017]

>>5461481
I thought Essos was closer to our idea of a prosperous civilization (bigger cities, greater diversity of ressources, bigger fleets and armies..).

[Anonymous No.5467019]

>>5466975
Those sigils are all by a graphic designer named Thomas Gately (too bad he stopped). You can find them all here, and some other stuff he's done:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/liquidsouldesign/sets/
http://liquidsouldesign.deviantart.com/gallery/?catpath=%2F

[Anonymous No.5467028]

>>5467019
Thank you!

[Anonymous No.5467043]

>>5467028
No problem. I like his work.

[Anonymous No.5467056]

>>5466989

Which is exactly Tolkien's point. For him, the impulse to create new technologies and so on is rooted in the desire of created beings to "subcreate", to establish their own little world in which they are the master. Such an endeavor is ultimately futile because they are not the master by definition, and those who press on with it anyway can certainly create their own little worlds, but it never ends well. Melkor being the prime example of this. The Numenorean technological development (Tolkien writes that they had repeating crossbows and ironclad battleships, it's frankly difficult to read them as anything other than an industrializing power) coincides with their alienation from "true religion" (peace with the Amanyar and ultimately the Powers they represent) and their fall to satanic self-glorification, statism, and eventual annihilation.

[Anonymous No.5467068]

>>5467056
So you agree with OP and me ?

[Anonymous No.5467084]

>>5467068

Not really, it's too simple to say "technology plays a bad role". Tolkien doesn't think of subcreation as fundamentally bad thing - how could he, given that he was an author and a Christian? Rather he thinks that technological development isn't an end in itself and much of the technological development he depicts in his writings is directed towards bad ends. The Silmarils certainly constitute a technology, they possess the power to contain the light of the Two Trees, a power rivaled only by the (divinely created) Sun and Moon. Was it bad for Feanor to create them? No, on the contrary it was the greatest expression of his unique genuis. But it still led to bad things happening, and that's Tolkien's worry about technology (and any other form of power) in a nutshell. It may look good, it may even be wielded with good intent, but if you keep with it long enough it will probably turn out bad, because that's just how people are in a cursed world.

[Anonymous No.5467104]

>>5466748
>Sure it did.
Aegon did not conquer in the name of Valyria.

[Anonymous No.5467109]

This is the most cogent Tolkien discussion I've read on this site. I'm just soaking it up.

[Anonymous No.5467122]

Man... All this lore in ASOIAF/GOT is just interesting but I couldn't give two shits about the actual stories being told in the books. They are just way too slow for me to try and read/watch. :(

[Anonymous No.5467128]

i'm pretty sure you're not supposed to take any of the "length of time" quotes in the book at face value

sam says that many of the "maesters" who are apparently like doctors/mathematician/historians in Westeros, don't believe like literally any of their old "history" stuff, so why would the lengths of time be correct either?

I'm pretty sure that in the real middle ages, 900 AD to 1400 AD, people in lame ass duchies in britain thought some crazy shit about how long ago the greek and egyptian empires existed too

now with that said, i think the best theory for technological and cultural stagnation is the ridiculous climate patterns they have, i mean theoretically a 10 year winter should actually like extinct all human life, so the fact that they survive it all is amazing, let alone technologically advance

[Anonymous No.5467133]

>>5467122

i dont really think the show is all that slow

i read all 5 books though and i definitely agree that it can be painful waiting for nuggets of lore to get explored

[Anonymous No.5467148]

>>5467133
I have the attention span of about 30 pages in a book. If nothing story-wise interesting happens during that period, yeah.... Not worth it for me. I like more compact stuff when it comes to books instead of bricks of paper. ;)

[Anonymous No.5467165]

>>5467128

This is definitely true, but in the same passage where Sam complains about Westerosi being gullible retards about the past he also says that he has found a list, which he trusts, of there being like six hundred Lords Commander of the Night's Watch. That's got to cover at least a thousand years during which people were defending the Wall, surely. In fact it has to be more, because the Night's Watch preceded the Andal invasion, which was at least two thousand years before the books, constituting the end of the Westerosi bronze age. This may seem like a ridiculously long time for there to be "no technological advancement", but it actually squares up pretty well with our own history - the bronze age in Greece, for example, ends around like 1200 BC, and a modern who visited Greece in AD 800 would probably find it just as backward.

[Anonymous No.5467189]

>>5467133
>>5467148

Oh also: It's like putting a gun in some officer's pocket that doesn't every use it when the audience expects it to have some use in the story.

[Anonymous No.5467437]

>>5467128

That's a good point. Presumably when characters say stuff like "the Starks have reigned in winterfell for 9000 years", that doesn't actually mean that the Starks have had an unbroken family line ruling in the same place for longer than irl human civilization has existed. It just means that the Starks have been top dog in the north for as long as anyone can remember, which probably isn't all that long since record keeping is likely to be pretty inconsistent.

[Anonymous No.5467451]

>>5467437
Yep. Think of the Bible. Lots of facts, lots of fictions, but the further back you go the longer everyone's lifespan is, as history turns into distant oral tradition and legend. That's why nobody knew what "dragonglass" was anymore, etc.

[Anonymous No.5467480]

>>5457431

I don't know why everyone assumes that there's been no advancement in westeros since the wall was built (approx. 2000 years before the start of the series). Just because they still used swords and had castles back then doesn't mean nothing's changed. There could, and probably have, been advances in shit like agriculture, architecture, engineering, medicine and so on.

In the real world, people used swords and had castles for literally 6000 years before the invention of gunpowder weapons made both obsolete. That doesn't mean that there were no advances in that time.

[Anonymous No.5467822]

>>5464952

What do you think the Citadel is?

[Anonymous No.5467840]

>>5457524
De onde veio essa porra desse português?

Im confus

[Anonymous No.5467933]

Anons in this thread might be interested to read http://deremilitari.org/2013/01/strategies-of-war-in-westeros/

>>5467480
>In the real world, people used swords and had castles for literally 6000 years before the invention of gunpowder weapons made both obsolete.

But even prior to gunpowder, there were technological and military innovations, that altered the design of fortifications, and the types of weapons, and so on.

[Anonymous No.5468094]

>>5457614
He's done one series and he'll die before it's over. He's not even one of the best LIVING authors. Don't give the guy too much credit.

[Anonymous No.5468098]

>>5467933

Sure there were advances in fortifications and weaponry. Why are you assuming there were none in westeros? All the stuff they have seems to be quite sophisticated late medieval or even early renaissance levels of tech. Their castles are pretty damn fancy, indicating a good understanding of masonry and engineering. A place like King's Landing seems about equal to something like Notre Dame cathedral in Paris, which is considered a masterpiece of real-world medieval architecture. Same with their weapons and armour - the armour seems to be pretty advanced in terms of freedom of movement, and they have crossbows. Both of those are again things that in the real world showed up towards the end of the medieval era, and were still around during the early renaissance.

Really, the fact that the westerosi seem to be at a tech level roughly equivalent to the 1400s in our world indicates that there HAS been a great deal of technological advancement. Sure, it might be a little slower than in our world thanks to the whole decade long winters thing, but it's clearly there.

[Anonymous No.5468099]

>>5458266
Aegon is Blackfyre. Maybe even Illyrio's son (Illyrio had a wife who looked Targ and might have been the last of the Blackfyre line)

[Anonymous No.5468113]

>>5461799
>Half is Balkans
Nah. And even if, thats 15 or so.

Your mistakes was setting it before 1848, which was a year for revolutions

[Anonymous No.5468117]

>>5465122
Probably because those cultures didn't really go for a proper medieval revolution.
>Africa
>no horses

[Anonymous No.5468131]

>>5460798
the seasons are fucked up due to yet to be explained magical fuckery

[Anonymous No.5468137]

>>5468131
Sometimes the gods forget to pay the heating bill

[Anonymous No.5468139]

>>5468131
Has that been declared? That it's magic's doing?

[Anonymous No.5468163]

>>5468139
Martin said something like that I *think* but everyone obsesses how it could be in the real world for some reason

[Anonymous No.5468171]

>>5468163
That's the expected general reaction to high fantasy in an even moderately realistic setting. Everyone wants it to be real, or at least reflective of the real enough that they feel justified in suspending disbelief.

[Anonymous No.5468180]

>>5468171
True. Harry Potter got the same treatment

[Anonymous No.5468185]

>>5468180
For reasons I cannot explain, everyone feels like a fool for enjoying fantasy. When really fantastic stories are one of the few ways we have to convey ethical knowledge from one culture or person to another. Bitches be crazy.

[Anonymous No.5468193]

>>5468185
Exactly. Weird peeps.

[Anonymous No.5468453]

>>5468098
I think the Chinese had repeating crossbows in Alexander's time, didn't they?

[Anonymous No.5468465]

>>5457431
pure ideology

nobody cared about my progress until I put on the enlightenement

[Anonymous No.5468468]

>>5461712
1815–1817 Second Serbian Uprising
1817–1864 Russian conquest of the Caucasus
1821–1832 Greek War of Independence
1821 Wallachian uprising of 1821
1823 French invasion of Spain
1826–1828 Russo–Persian War
1827 War of the Malcontents
1828–1829 Russo-Turkish War
1828–1834 Liberal Wars
1830 Ten Days Campaign (following the Belgian Revolt)
1830–1831 November Uprising
1831 Canut revolts
1831–1832 Great Bosnian uprising
1831–1836 Tithe War
1832 War in the Vendée and Chouannerie of 1832
1832 June Rebellion
1833–1839 First Carlist War
1833–1839 Albanian Revolts of 1833–1839
1843–1844 Albanian Revolt of 1843–1844
1846 Galician slaughter
1846–1849 Second Carlist War
1847 Albanian Revolt of 1847
1847 Sonderbund War
1848–1849 Hungarian Revolution and War of Independence
1848–1851 First Schleswig War
1848–1866 Wars of Italian Independence
1848–1849 First Italian Independence War
1859 Second Italian War of Independence
1866 Third Italian War of Independence
1853–1856 Crimean War
1854 Epirus Revolt of 1854
1858 Mahtra War
1861–62 Montenegrin–Ottoman War (1861–62)
1863–1864 January Uprising
1864 Second Schleswig War
1866 Austro-Prussian War
1866–1869 Cretan Revolt
1867 Fenian Rising
1870–1871 Franco-Prussian War
1872–1876 Third Carlist War
1873–1874 Cantonal Revolution
1875–77 Herzegovina Uprising (1875–77)
1876–78 Serbo-Turkish War (1876–78)
1876–78 Montenegrin-Ottoman War (1876-1878)
1877–1878 Russo–Turkish War
1878 Epirus Revolt of 1878
1885 Serbo-Bulgarian War
1897 Greco–Turkish War
1903 Ilinden Uprising
1904–1908 Macedonian Struggle
1905 Łódź insurrection
1907 1907 Romanian Peasants' Revolt
1910 Albanian Revolt of 1910
1911–1912 Italo-Turkish War
1912–1913 Balkan Wars
1912–1913 First Balkan War
1913 Second Balkan War
1914 Peasant Revolt in Albania
1914–1918 World War I
1916 Easter Rising
1917–1921 Russian Civil War
1917–1921 Ukrainian–Soviet War
1918 Georgian–Armenian War
1918 Georgian-Turkish War
1918 Finnish Civil War
1918 Polish-Czech war for Teschen Silesia
1918–1919 Georgian-Russian conflict over Sochi
1918–1919 Polish-Ukrainian War
1918–1919 Greater Poland Uprising
1918–1920 Estonian Liberation War
1918–1920 Latvian War of Independence
1919 Hungarian–Romanian War of 1919
1919 Christmas Uprising
1919–1922 Greco–Turkish War
1919–1923 Turkish War of Independence
1919–1920 Czechoslovakia-Hungary War
1919–1921 Silesian Uprisings
1919–1921 Polish-Soviet War
1919–1922 Irish War of Independence
1920 Polish–Lithuanian War
1920 Vlora War
1921 Georgian-Russian War
1921 Uprising in West Hungary
1922–1923 Irish Civil War
1934 Austrian Civil War
1936–1939 Spanish Civil War
1939 Slovak-Hungarian War
1939 Occupation of Zakarpattia Oblast by Hungary
1939–1945 World War II

[Anonymous No.5470256]

>>5468098
>Why are you assuming there were none in westeros?

Um, I'm not. I was responding at >>5467933 to a post stating that

> people used swords and had castles for literally 6000 years

I was observing precisely that a blades-arrows-fortifications military culture doesn't at all imply an absence of innovation - most obviously, the materials and the ways they were used changed and developed (e. g., bronze > iron > steel; longbow, recurve bow, crossbow).

I think the big thing that makes people comment on Westerosi technology is the absence of gunpowder-projectile weaponry, which had been around for some time by the time IRL Europe reached the stage upon which ASOIAF's Westeros seems to be based (and which made the old tactic of holding a fortified place less viable). Of course, as that paper I linked notes, the other big difference is that Westerosi military technology developed through ages with magic and especially dragons. So a direct comparison is probably mistaken.

As you correctly note, in ASOIAF we are seeing a snapshot of a particular age of Westeros, and the historical detail doesn't go back more than a few centuries. Technological stagnation, at least militarily, is far more the case for Tolkien's world, or at least for the "good" side of it; however, considering that prior to the third age, this world has been dominated by the Elves who live for millennia, and by divine beings and others who are immortal, as well as extremely long-lived Men, that's much less surprising.

[Anonymous No.5470268]

>>5468098
>Really, the fact that the westerosi seem to be at a tech level roughly equivalent to the 1400s in our world indicates that there HAS been a great deal of technological advancement. Sure, it might be a little slower than in our world thanks to the whole decade long winters thing, but it's clearly there.

Indeed. And it's not just the Westerosi climate: the pace of modern military (and other) innovation has been driven to a significant extent by the consequences of the Industrial Revolution, and by technologies that don't exist for the Westerosi (electric, oil and gas, and nuclear power; aircraft; computers).

[Anonymous No.5470292]

>>5468131
>>5468137
>>5468139
>>5468163

Martin said: "The most conspicuous aspect of the world of Westeros in The Song of Ice and Fire is the nature of the seasons, the long and random nature of the seasons. I have gotten a number of fan letters over the years from readers who are trying to figure out the reason for why the seasons are the way they are. They develop lengthy theories: perhaps it’s a multiple-star system, and what the axial tilt is, but I have to say, “Nice try, guys, but you’re thinking in the wrong direction.” This is a fantasy series. I am going to explain it all eventually, but it’s going to be a fantasy explanation. It’s not going to be a science-fiction explanation."

This was in a May 2007 interview with Weird Tales. No working URL that I can find, but this is available via the Wayback machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20080820015754/http://www.darkfantasy.org/weirdtales/2007/05/george-rr-martin-on-magic-vs-science.html

[Anonymous No.5470302]

>>5470292

Cap of the whole interview.

[Anonymous No.5470494]

>>5470292
>I can't into good writing, so I'll just say it's magic

[Anonymous No.5470551]

>>5470494

You are of course entitled to read, and to like, and not to read or to dislike, whatever you choose; however, to come onto a 99-post thread of largely serious discussion merely to insert a line of snark based either on creative misreading, or on a lack of basic comprehension, suggests something more than ordinary opinion.

[Anonymous No.5471280]

>>5467840
>>5467840

[Anonymous No.5471292]

>>5457678
ma nigga

[Anonymous No.5471316]

Someone said to me that if I liked ASOIAF I'd like The Wheel of Time series.

How much shit were they talking?

[Anonymous No.5471334]

>>5461787
holy fuck Europe, sort your shit out

[Anonymous No.5471349]

>>5471316
>>5471316
I was put off by the plot synopsis for the first few books and the fact that the series is notoriously overextended to the point that he fucking died before finishing it.

I'd argue that the only 'adult' fantasy worth reading since Tolkien has been Le Guin, SOME Moorcock, and the Weiss/Hickman Dragonlance novels which I remember liking even though I fucking hate the likes of David Eddings.

[Anonymous No.5471360]

>>5471316
I was put off by the plot synopsis for the first few WoT books and the fact that the series is notoriously overextended to the point that he fucking died before finishing it.

I'd argue that the only 'adult' fantasy worth reading since Tolkien has been ASoIaF, Le Guin's first two Earthsea books, SOME Moorcock, and the Weiss/Hickman Dragonlance novels which I remember liking even though I fucking hate the likes of David Eddings. Everything else is either derivative trash or awkward attempts to make fantasy literary by people like Gene Wolf.

[Anonymous No.5471425]

>>5457498
Thing is, even the economics make sense. It's astonishingly well researched. http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/pdf/EconomyArticle.pdf

[Anonymous No.5471451]

>>5471360
Matter of taste: I don't enjoy Jordan's writing much, and never got into the Wheel.
>>5471316
I could add a lot to that list, but I'd start with Thomas Covenant and Holdstock's Mythago Wood series.

[Anonymous No.5473489]

>>5471334
>implying it didn't make us all the stronger

[Anonymous No.5474229]

>>5470494
>>5470292
>>5460030
>>5457664
>>5457913
>>5461410

Its fucking volcanic winter guys.
The fall of valyria was caused by some super volcano that the nation was built on.
It goes dormant for a little while, then has a catastrophic eruption causing the atmosphere to reflect heat much better, which in turn causes a winter (wikipedia this shit). It's mentioned by sailors that there is 'a red glow' near where valyria was implying that this volcano is still somewhat active.
There may be a bit of magic involved in making sure it has a big enough eruption to cause this shit, or to make sure it doesnt go dormant, but im almost 100% sure that this is what old george is gonna say when it comes to it.

[Anonymous No.5474232]

>>5474229
also look up 'the doom of valyria' on the asoiaf wiki and follow a few links if you want to see for yourself. It adds up.

[Anonymous No.5474235]

>>5474229
There are also legit seasons going in the mean mean time, but they are relatively mild in comparison to the volcanic-ally regulated ones.

[Anonymous No.5474616]

>>5474229

And remember the doomed settlement North of the Wall at Hardhome.

Valyria sounds like a fantasy Pompeii of sorts.