What is the most embarrassing artform and why is it poetry?

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Anonymous Thu Dec 5 20:46:59 2013 No.4340685 [Reply] [Original]

What is the most embarrassing artform and why is it poetry?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 20:47:59 2013 No.4340691 >can't write a novel >can't paint a picture >can't play an instrument >"oh hey, i can do poetry!"

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 20:48:59 2013 No.4340694 >any poetry slam video This is why

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 20:50:59 2013 No.4340696 most novelists. they only have it in them to write one good novel and the rest is just derivations or practice leading up to it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 20:53:59 2013 No.4340701 >>4340694 This >>4340685 I wish poetry wasn't considered so embarrassing, there's some seriously bad-ass poetry out there. >Tennyson >Henley >Ariosto >Homer >Byron >Coleridge etc.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 20:54:59 2013 No.4340702 Poetry sadly. I love poetry. Its sad reading some transit poems on the ad-boards. I always think, this nobody will forgotten faster than those who have never written a single stanza of this garbage.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:08:59 2013 No.4340722 >>4340685 Because no one can fucking write it, no one seems to understand how a metrum works, and thus most poetry is teenage-diary-tier shit. I love poetry and am pretty good at it myself, but fuck do I despise most of this modern free-form "poetry".

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:12:59 2013 No.4340727 >itt: people who don't read or understand poetry attempt to talk about it

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:13:59 2013 No.4340730 File: 18 KB, 250x356, WBYoung.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I despise you all so much.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:14:00 2013 No.4340731 >>4340727 seriously this is like a high school-tier discussion of poetry

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:16:20 2013 No.4340736

>>4340685
because the media portrays "poets" as douchebags who think too highly of themselves, many "poets" are, in reality, try-hard hacks with no business actually voicing opinions on the subjects in which they write and it's painfully obvious through their work. add in the inherent contradictory nature (it's got a shitton of rules, except, not) and you have it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:16:20 2013 No.4340738 >>4340731 No one is discussing, what are you on about?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:16:20 2013 No.4340739 File: 99 KB, 453x590, tumblr_m41m1soMnz1qcl8ymo1_500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4340722 >calling it metrum instead of meter >implying poetry is only good when ruled by the meter fuck you're a real unlearned brute

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:18:59 2013 No.4340747 >>4340738 what? like... what? we are discussing poetry. You're nuts. >>4340736 ya no shit people who consume media are unhappy, unintelligent, and have no idea where to begin actually understanding their life

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:20:59 2013 No.4340750 File: 35 KB, 179x281, 1362869881637.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4340722 >metrum

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:20:59 2013 No.4340752

>>4340739
In my language it is called metrum.
And I didn't say poetry needs a meter to be good, I said that the poet needs to understand how a meter works - or the structure of a poem in general.
Sure, break up with the form, but not without understanding why you do so!

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:22:00 2013 No.4340756 >>4340747 At the point where you made your post we merely talked about poetry. Only now we slowly get a discussion going. That's why I think your comparison with highschool came a little early.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:23:00 2013 No.4340759 >>4340752 What the hell makes you think they need to know meter to not use it. Obviously they don't... meter would be completely irrelevant if they're gonna make poetry based on other rules.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:24:59 2013 No.4340761 File: 17 KB, 210x240, 1365107364397.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4340756 >we weren't discussing poetry! we were merely talking about poetry

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:30:59 2013 No.4340774

>>4340759
Then why choose the form of poetry?
Seriously, having rhymes at the ends of lines but showing no understanding of meter always results in a cringe-worthy poem. And yet people still try to do so.
They should rather drop the whole form altogether, and not try half-assing it. In that moment ignorance of meter really shows.
Sure, there is good free-form poetry (most of it could just be short texts, though), but these mix-ups barely ever bring anything good to the table.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:31:59 2013 No.4340779 >>4340759 >What the hell makes you think they need to know meter to not use it. Because if they don't have a knowledge of meter or rhythm they're just randomly putting words on paper with arbitrary line breaks. I feel trolled for responding, nice1m8

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:32:10 2013 No.4340782 >>4340761 Nope, there was no discussion, just you feeling the need to be smug for the sake of your superiority complex without adding anything to anything.

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:44:09 2013 No.4340805

>>4340747
>ya no shit people who consume media are unhappy,, unintelligent, and have no idea where to begin actually understanding their life

you do understand what media means right? media just isn't fox news some pop songs. media is cartoons, sitcoms, drama tv, movies, fiction, non fiction... that generalization you made is all sorts of stupid, and the assumption it makes that people who dislike poetry and poets because of extremely bad real life reinforcement of stereotypes just makes you ignorant for making the claim. also "understanding one's life" has absolutely noting to do with poetry's enjoyment.

Like it or not it's a legitimate critique, contemporary poets don't have the the legitimacy to speak on what they write about because they're asinine and masturbatory towards "classics" each other, and truly ignorant of nature of their subject matter on which they write, on average, and that the way poetry is taught in academia is highly nonsensical leading to the idea the people get who begin exploring poetry that it's got lots of rules but fuck rules and fuck you because we're jerking it to *author today who was really good.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:49:09 2013 No.4340820 >>4340774 >>4340779 Thank you. What is it with you faggots and defending free verse? It's objectively worse than metered poetry.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 21:51:09 2013 No.4340825 >>4340820 Free-verse can be okay, but if it's done in the absence of knowledge about meter then it's just random arbitrary nonsense 99% of the time.

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:08:10 2013 No.4340869

>>4340759

This is the kind of mindset that separates young poets who are laughable from young poets who were genuinely brilliant like Rimbaud. An understanding of history.

You need to take the time to understand the poetic schema you're attempting to break down if you really want to make anything worthwhile. It's a natural progression.

But no, new poets think they can fucking quirk their way around it, disregarding a much needed contextual understanding of the lineage their art is a part of, paradoxically preventing them from realising any truly original forms they'd want to create for themselves within it. This is why they will always be subpar. Not all of them - but most of them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:14:09 2013 No.4340885 File: 7 KB, 473x454, 1367818865024.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Is all poetry pretentious Or is pretension poetry?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:14:09 2013 No.4340887 File: 135 KB, 497x879, 1385106698576.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] The age of letters has come and gone. Poetry is a relic of the past.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:17:09 2013 No.4340895 >>4340685 It is expressionist dancing actually. Altough poetry slam is dangerously close although I don't don't think that this has much in common with poetry...

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:22:09 2013 No.4340914 >expecting poetry to sound like old ass shakepeare in the year 2013

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:23:09 2013 No.4340918 >>4340887 and this, poetry has no use for modern society. So unless you're an aspiring poet, stop bitching.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:24:09 2013 No.4340919 >>4340914 My poetry sounds more like romanticism actually. Novalis is great.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:25:09 2013 No.4340927 >>4340919 post. I need mouthwash for the shit of Billy Collins I was just subjected to

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:26:09 2013 No.4340934 >>4340927 My poems are german, and I am lying in bed and am on my phone. Maybe tomorrow.

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:32:09 2013 No.4340950

>>4340759
>>4340774
>>4340779
>>4340825
I'm not an expert in poetry, but I have a lot of experience as a musician so I'll elucidate the issue through the comparison. Feel free to critique me.

The complexity of music is akin to that of poetry. The artistic effect of both music and poetry is the gestalt of number of elements including sonority, meter, emphasis, rhythm, tempo, syntax, allegory, metaphor, superficial meaning, underlying meaning, abstraction, clarity, the list goes on and on. Each element has its own meaning, as well as every element's combination with every element, to every degree of interrelation. This complexity amounts to virtually infinite possibilities of effect and meaning. Every choice that is made in composing a poem, like in music, has tremendous impact on the whole. At every step there is a danger of making an artistic choice that contradicts the effect of previous choices or limits future possibilities. It is extremely difficult to conceive of everything at once. Conventions of meter, sonority and rhyme are tempting to dismiss as dogmatic, this dismissal however ignores why such conventions arise. Poetic rules are conceptual tools, standards by which the effect of various choices can be measured in terms of fidelity and deviation. The meaning of a poem, or any of the constituent choices, can thereupon become comprehensible. Ironically, the profound freedom of the poet in his work is only bearable with the help of seemingly rigid rules.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:35:09 2013 No.4340969 >>4340950 Huh, good post.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:36:44 2013 No.4340972 >>4340950 No one needs music theory to play a guitar 0/10 failed.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:40:43 2013 No.4340982 >>4340972 You do if you want to play the guitar well, you fuck.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:42:43 2013 No.4340984 >>4340972 As someone who has taken music theory and plays guitar, I can agree with this post.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 22:44:43 2013 No.4340989 because it it the most honest

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:02:44 2013 No.4341026

>>4340685
>1) there are no entry barriers, any retard can write a poem
>2) you can be opaque as you like, meaning it's often difficult to understand what the hell the poet is talking about
>3)People like to write poetry about dramatic emotions like love and sadness. Being highly emotional seems out of place when there's little build up.
>4) The art school environment which tends to produce them encourages 2deep4u, making 2) worse

From 1, 2 and 3, it can be and often is shitty, nonsensical, overemotional babble. As a lot of poets are shit ugly, live readings only make things worse. Some of the live poetry I've seen is just agonizing.

Although >>4340895 this guy has it right that interpretive dancing is some of the most laughable shit I've ever seen.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:03:43 2013 No.4341031 >>4340982 You don't know what you're talking. Like half of all rockstars don't know theory. It's almost glorified.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:04:43 2013 No.4341033 >>4340982 >Being this ignorant I'm sure you were only pretending, right.

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:04:43 2013 No.4341035

>>4340972
>>4340984
There is huge difference between just playing the guitar and being a master of the guitar. If you want to speak through the guitar, you have to know what you're doing. Formal theoretical knowledge is not the only way to know what you're doing but it's certainly the easiest. The alternative is directly experiencing so much of the instrument that you can come to an understanding of the possibilities without the abstract representation of theory. Besides, music theory is not as mystical as people seem to think it is. All it does is provide a language for talking and thinking about the phenomenon of music. It's no different from having an ability to talk about how one writes as opposed to only writing instinctively. Instinct is important and is the vital core of music, but if you're at all interested in legitimately exploring music, and thereby properly RESPECT it as a reflection of the infinitude of the universe, a larger frame of reference is necessary. If you don't think that's important, then you're a fucking egotistical musician who will never know what it means to be liberated by music.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:05:43 2013 No.4341038 >>4341031 And pretty much every bluesman.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:06:43 2013 No.4341040 >>4340736 > the media using this phrase without defining what exactly you mean by it is a great way to get folks to believe you're 15 and not exceptionally bright for your age

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:06:43 2013 No.4341041 >>4341035 And yet most people would say Jimi Hendrix was an innovative guitarist, despite not knowing any theory.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:06:43 2013 No.4341042 >>4341035 >who will never know what it means to be liberated by music. call the fire brigade, we've got a third-degree burn right here

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:11:43 2013 No.4341058

>>4341031
Just because they don't know the formal music theory developed by the European tradition doesn't mean they don't know how to think theoretically. Theory isn't monolithic. That all kinds of music theories developed around the world in different ways (the theory of Hindustani Classical music and West African drumming for example) demonstrates that theory is more than something you either have or don't have. These guys aren't just playing random notes, they grew up listening to tons of music and learned how to reproduce it themselves. By simply noticing patterns and developing a language with which to talk about them, they develop a theoretical understanding of music.

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:12:43 2013 No.4341061

>>4341041
>this is the easiest way of learning music well
>yeah but what about this exception who had been playing guitar since he was a kid before he got famous?
Not sure why you think that disproves what he had to say there. I agree with him too. Learning music theory is a hell of a lot easier than spending a decade playing the blues to understand what makes some things sound good and other things bad in blues, and how you can "break the rules" with something that sounds even better. Otherwise you're just stuck noodling around until you get lucky and find something that sounds good.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:13:43 2013 No.4341064 test

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:34:43 2013 No.4341127

>>4341041
"Formal theoretical knowledge is not the only way to know what you're doing but it's certainly the easiest. The alternative is directly experiencing so much of the instrument that you can come to an understanding of the possibilities without the abstract representation of theory."

Miles Davis tells a story in his autobiography about a time he was hanging out with Jimi and showing a little theory. It turned out Jimi already understood the concepts and that Miles was simply giving him the words to label them and talk about them with.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:36:43 2013 No.4341129 >not photography You're literally not creating anything Wow a picture of a dog, all i had to do was look out my FUCKING window

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:39:03 2013 No.4341142 >>4341061 >thinking Hendrix is the only exception dude >>4341058 >>4341127 He indirectly knew music theory, not directly.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:41:02 2013 No.4341144 >>4341127 the other alternative is being a lazy fuck, sucking forever, and then saying that your playing has soul/"character" because you don't know what you're doing

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:42:03 2013 No.4341146 >>4341041 >people think Hendrix didn't know any theory toplel, he might have not learned it from the book but that's pretty irrelevant when you have perfect pitch and years of experience in transcribing by using your ears

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:44:03 2013 No.4341148

>>4341129
i have to agree. i don't buy into the formalisms of photography that state it decenters our eye by looking at the world in fundamentally new ways by creative framing and perspective. the perspective shifts were predated in 19th ce painting before photography took hold of the image.
i still enjoy looking at photography books though

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:45:02 2013 No.4341154 >>4341129 >lel photography takes no skill I'm such a genius critic

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:45:02 2013 No.4341156

>>4341142
My point was to dispel the myth of music theory. Although it's tempting to say that Hendrix didn't know music theory because he didn't know how to read music or maybe didn't even know the names of notes, he undoubtedly developed a systematic knowledge of music through his experience of it. Theory is nothing more than systemic knowledge + language. Jimi knew more music theory than he could tell you.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:46:03 2013 No.4341158 >>4341146 >he might have not learned it from the book that's the whole point of learning theory numbskull. If you want to get technical anyone who plays a note "knows" theory but that's not what we mean.

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:47:03 2013 No.4341161

>>4341146

This has more to do with the natural intuition that talent affords than an actual understanding of theory.

If we really want to play the semantics game his post is closer to the understanding of "theory" that is being used in the context of this thread than your post is.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:47:03 2013 No.4341162 >>4341146 a good portion of the population is too autistic to realize that theory is a description of something in the real world and not random shit you make up in your head that is entirely divorced from external reality

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:47:03 2013 No.4341165 >>4341156 So it's possible to become a genius poet without ever knowing meter.

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:48:02 2013 No.4341171

>>4341142
If the discussion turns to a formal or informal knowledge of music theory, then why even bring up Hendrix at all as "not knowing theory"? Getting a formal knowledge of theory is still a hell of a lot easier, so far as I know, than having to guess at it yourself.
>okay, these three notes make a so-and-so chord, which sounds good with these other so-and-so chords
As opposed to playing individual notes and trying to figure it out on your own which ones go nicely with which.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:49:02 2013 No.4341173 >>4341165 Possible, but extraordinarily unlikely.

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:53:02 2013 No.4341180

>>4341165
No, it's possible to become a genius poet without ever calling it meter. The same thing happened with Keats.
>spent years of his life studying classical poetry in different languages
>never any formal knowledge
>still used meter and had a clear knowledge of it
This debate of whether you call it "meter" or nothing at all is stupid, and it's a damned stupid point to try and argue about.

As an aside, Keats could be probably be considered the "Jimi Hendrix of poetry" to some degree.

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:55:02 2013 No.4341189

>>4341165
There's no way someone could be a genius poet without recognizing the rhythmic aspect of language that meter describes and prescribes. A genius poet could potentially not understand the specific terminology or could write in a way that didn't adhere to a specific traditional convention, but he would definitely make artistic choices by considering the aspects of language meter deals with.

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:56:03 2013 No.4341192
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>>4341161
not theory
>work in artform for years
>absorb various structures, learn to recognize and reproduce them
theory
>work in artform for years
>absorb various structures, learn to recognize and reproduce them
>learn the vocabulary that the rest of the world uses to describe them at some point

is this seriously the distinction you're trying to argue

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:57:03 2013 No.4341196

>>4341162

And you're too autistic to understand that nothing a person can conceive of will ever be fully divorced from the external realities of conditioning, dogma and impulse that society and the biology of the natural order impose upon us.

Congratulations, fuckface.

Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:57:03 2013 No.4341197

>>4341031
Half of the rockstars that didn;t know theory wrote glorified pop-music. Some of the best rock musicians of all time, like say Can, who were educated by Stochausen, made innovative and beautiful music WITH their knowledge of theory.

There's this retarded stigma that music is "free" and doesn't follow any rules, as if the rules are chains. They're not chains, they're tools.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 5 23:59:02 2013 No.4341204 >>4341196 le angry undergraduate face

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 00:17:03 2013 No.4341239 >>4341192 >individuals universally come to the same understanding of an art as academics if they spend a certain amount of time practicing the art Silly.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 00:20:03 2013 No.4341246 >>4341197 If there are any rules, musicians will violate them and still make enjoyable music, bet on it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 00:21:03 2013 No.4341248 >>4341239 >anyone comes to the same understanding of anything as anyone else

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 00:30:04 2013 No.4341261
File: 1.81 MB, 320x320, cerealextended.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4341246
what is this even supposed to mean
the sort of music that results from "breaking the rules" (ie beginning musicians not having sufficiently internalized the structures of whatever style they're working in then unintentionally not working within them) generally results in garbage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unRldLdllZ8
this is an example

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 00:31:04 2013 No.4341265 >>4341204 le poor toldfag damage control

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 00:42:20 2013 No.4341293 >>4341265 can you explain to me the connection between my post and yours i'm not seeing it

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 00:51:20 2013 No.4341305 >>4341293 I understand that you're still upset after making a little post trying to take an elitist stance and decry others only to get so completely told, but if it's any consolation I only chose to shit on you because it was hilariously easy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 00:52:21 2013 No.4341309 >>4341305 wat

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 01:08:21 2013 No.4341333 >>4341031 Knowing guitar theory doesn't necessarily mean knowing everything it has to offer. If you know a few scales, you know some guitar theory. You don't have to be able to read and write music to know happening on the neck of your guitar.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 05:25:34 2013 No.4341690 >>4340927 If you are still here or interested, have this. I think I already posted this once in some other thread. Will post translation in a bit, though it is kinda tough.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 05:29:35 2013 No.4341695

>>4341690
The world is old and gray these days
And Aphrodite's hair withers white.
By brother Chronos' steady gnawing
The beautiful goddess' youth is old since a long time ago.

Though may time drive pale scars further
Into life - that may end, but not the world!
Rather the canvas loses its colours
And shows itself pallid, and real, and undisguised.

The worldsbody has never known the youth.
It just wore colourful masks, wore makeup.
The original gift of man, artist's virtue.
A brushstroke - but old colour stinks.

And now?
________Does children's laughter, mothers' crying
Count with nothing but boring sound in light smoke?
As what does the animal now have difference to rocks?
A rock that stuffs the empty stomach?

However soon it wishes again the wish in delusion,
A rock that thinks that it can think.
It paints - and swings - the new sense as a banner
And looks at the world, that shines again.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 05:35:34 2013 No.4341700 I don't know, I find performance arts pretty embarrassing.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 05:41:34 2013 No.4341709

>>4340950
>Poetic rules are conceptual tools

This. People who don't know a damn about meter are probably people who are completely out of touch with the things the word "meter" actually represents, rhythm in language.
When somebody says "nobody understands meter anymore" they mean that a ton of free verse poetry is basically not for the ear at all. I don't mean, not in iambs or anapests or whatever, I mean the poet clearly is paying no attention to where stress and unstressed words fall in relation to the meaning of the poem. A lot of poetry is just quirky verbal stuff and imagry heaped under a load of obscurity or stock confession.
The reason this is important is because a lot of the haunting quality of good poetry comes from the meter. It's why a shit-load of Tennyson and Shakespeare entered common language. It's partly why you have bits of Prufrock or Plath, whatever stuck in your head. This, and rhyme, is why people remember pop-song lyrics.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 05:41:34 2013 No.4341710 >>4340685 Because you have to be really fuckin' good at it for it to work. No wiggle room in a poem.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 05:43:34 2013 No.4341714 >>4341709 What's the best manual/guide for getting into meter and rhythm? Is there a good one with lots of examples?

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 05:48:34 2013 No.4341721

>>4341714

I'd suggest you read a lot of somebody working in iambs, somebody like Frost, Yeats, or Larkin, in conjunction with reading a manual. The reading is really the best way to tune your ear. Also, reading Hopkins really helped me for some reason.
Wikipedia's Iambic article is fine, or you could try All The Fun's... by Timothy Steele. Also a website called For Better Verse.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 05:50:35 2013 No.4341725 >>4341721 Nice, thanks.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 05:51:35 2013 No.4341726

>>4341714
Honestly, I am not sure if that is something you can learn. As someone who wrote "poetry" since an early age (if you want to count stuff a second-grader products poetry), I think it is just a thing that you've gotta have in you.
Read a lot to get a feeling for it. Read out loudly aswell, don't forget that! Rhythm isn't just a thing you can pin down by reading with your eyes.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 06:37:04 2013 No.4341765 >mfw reading the student poetry published in my University Newspaper

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 06:39:03 2013 No.4341766 File: 621 KB, 500x267, 1386329990937.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >mfw reading the student poetry published in my University Newspaper

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 07:27:03 2013 No.4341837

Frederick Seidel is the only poet I can stand:

I’m Mussolini,
And the woman spread out on my enormous Duce desk looks teeny.
The desk becomes an altar, sacred.
The woman’s naked.

I call the woman teeny only because I need the rhyme.
The shock of naked looks huge on top of a desktop and the slime.
Duce! Duce! Duce! is what girls get wet with.
This one’s perhaps the wettest one’s ever met with.

Mussolini often did this,
Boots on, on the desk he worked at.
I’m sitting in my desk chair staring at IT and Oh she likes that.
She likes me staring at her box office.

Isn’t everything theatre? That’s what’s real.
I’ve got the face of an anteater
That sticks out like a penis to eat a meal.
I’m a chinless, cheater, wife-beater attending the theatre.

It has to be someone else’s wife.
Of course!
I live alone with my life.
One divorce for me was enough divorce.

I think of the late Joe Fox and his notion
That he couldn’t sleep without a woman in his bed.
He also loved the ocean
And published Philip Roth when filthy Philip first got read.

When pre-spring March snow soft-focuses the city,
And the trees express their branches like lungs showing off their bronchi,
And the lined-up carriage horses stomp their hooves and whiten patiently,
I stay chained to my desk, honky honking honky.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 07:34:03 2013 No.4341855

/lit/ has, or had recently, some really good poets. We used to have "best of /lit/ poetry threads and these same poems would pop up on them. There was one about Jesus in belfast, one about a cat dying or something, one about a little girl whose friends were all dying or something, and a couple from the gomorrah poem guy that sort of haunt you and you remember them later the way you do really good poems from famous poets. I haven't seen a lot of good stuff on here lately, but they should all be in the archive somewhere.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 07:55:03 2013 No.4341891 Free form is okay, but I have yet to read a good poem from a poet that hasn't had a proper understanding of metrics, rhymes and alliteration, forms and where and when things are best used.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 07:56:03 2013 No.4341895 >>4341855 Gomorrah and Belfast was the same guy, ie. you. Your belfast poem was alright though. Are you still writing?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 07:58:03 2013 No.4341901 File: 2.39 MB, 3264x2448, IMG_6501.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4341129 I took this lately. Like it? Poetry is the most embarrassing medium though. Just looking at the early stuff I wrote leaves me cringing constantly.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 08:05:03 2013 No.4341914
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>>4341901
I like how you say that seriously, while you showcase a black and white photo.

Here's a picture of my faux-artist afterparty shit. It's still ten times better than yours.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 08:07:03 2013 No.4341918 >>4341914 Jesus what the hell was going on at that place?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 08:08:03 2013 No.4341920 File: 884 KB, 2048x1365, shit2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4341918 What you've never had an afterparty?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 08:08:03 2013 No.4341922 >>4341895 Did the gommorah/belfast guy write anymore? does he have a blog or anything?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 08:20:03 2013 No.4341934 >>4341690 >>4341695 lol this is awful

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 08:26:03 2013 No.4341936 >>4341922 he might have stopped coming here, it's a shame though he should do something

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 08:27:03 2013 No.4341940 >>4340739 >implying that a good understanding of meter isn't essential in writing without one

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 09:03:40 2013 No.4341984

>>4341940
To be honest, most people think metre is about writing in strict form and not understanding the intricate way you sound and shape words with syllables and how they are structured in the line.

The guy you wrote to has obviously never understood the point about metre.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 10:08:39 2013 No.4342098 >>4341934 What about it is awful, anon?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 10:16:27 2013 No.4342112 >>4341936 Pretty sure someone stands a better chance of doing something if they leave here than if they stay.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 10:31:28 2013 No.4342137 >>4340694 I cringed at the mere thought of a hypothetical one.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 10:38:27 2013 No.4342147 >>4341690 >>4341695 absolut widerwärtig. 1720 ist leider schon ein Weilchen vorbei.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 10:42:27 2013 No.4342153

>>4342147
Du weißt aber schon, über welche Zeit du redest, oder?

Außerdem, was hat Zeit überhaupt damit zu tun? Hast du irgendwelche literarischen Kritikpunkte, oder ist deine einzige Beschwerde, dass es nicht "zeitgemäß" ist? (Zeitgemäße Dichtung ist total langweilig, aber das nur am Rande.) Und macht die Erwähnung antiker Götterbilder ein Gedicht selbst veraltet?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 10:46:28 2013 No.4342159 >>4342153 die Verwendung antiker Götterbilder an sich ist ein Merkmal jugendlicher Kantigkeit, der man entwächst, so wie auch zB Nihilismus.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 10:47:28 2013 No.4342160 Can someone repost the now famous Gomorrah and Belfast stuff?

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 10:49:27 2013 No.4342165

>>4341261
you're a fucking idiot. rules are defined retroactively based on what sounds good. the blue note is "breaking the rules" but today you have a blues scale and everyone knows it sounds good. this discussion on music and theory really proved how many degenerate retards are on /lit/

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 10:51:27 2013 No.4342168 >>4342159 Nö, sie ist ein Stilmittel, das besonders im späten 18ten Jahrhundert Europas populär wurde. Und jetzt gib mal bitte ein bisschen literarische Kritik ab, anstatt dich an sowas aufzuhängen.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 10:53:27 2013 No.4342170 >>4342165 they're prescriptivists. The conservatives of literary studies >>4342168 es ist fade. Nichts Neues. Weltschmerz halt.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 10:58:27 2013 No.4342180

>>4342170
Du scheinst dich ja echt gut mit Lyrik auszukennen.

Einfach nur den Inhalt zusammenzufassen ist nicht das, was man bei einem Gedicht macht, wenn man es kritisiert. Darüber hinaus ist lustig, dass du erst Nihilismus als Schlagwort kritisierst, ihn dann aber in diesem Text nicht einmal zu erkennen scheinst.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 11:01:28 2013 No.4342185 >>4342180 meine Stilkritik sitzt noch nicht fest genug. Aber wenn es schon fade und austauschbar klingt, ist es auch egal, ob das Versmaß ein Daktylus oder ein Iambus ist oder wie wunderschön geschliffen die Reime sind. So ein Fach ist das.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 11:05:27 2013 No.4342191

>>4342160
When Jesus walks in Belfast
He wears his collar up
he keeps his blessings to himself
and stoops before his cup

when Jesus comes through Belfast
he spends his wisdom dear
And when his name is spoken
he makes as not to hear

He keeps well back in company
and shuts his fuckin mouth
and when he can he does his trade
a measure further south

When Jesus walks in Belfast
He keeps his cap pulled low
his step away he quickens
and those returning slow

He'd have a merry welcome
if he should take the whim
to ask the sods he suffered for
to suffer more of him.

that's Belfast. i think I've got Gomorrah somewhere. I'll see. Anybody else have it?

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 11:06:27 2013 No.4342198

>>4342185
Was genau ist daran fade und austauschbar? Was ist ein vergleichbares Gedicht?

Außerdem habe ich von Metrum und Reimen gar nicht gesprochen, sondern von Satzkonstruktionen, Wortpositionierungen, Stilmittel, etc. Was das angeht, hat das Gedicht nämlich einige, wie ich fnde, recht geschickte Nuancen. So beginnt das Gedicht etwa in der vierten Strophe ein Gespräch mit sich selbst, je nach dem, wie man die Worte betont. Das hat nicht ohne Grund diese verschrobene Form und die beiden Enjambements.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 11:54:19 2013 No.4342303 Deutsch fight going down ITT! I agree with the critic, that poem was insipid.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:34:07 2013 No.4342387 >>4342303 Just as insipid as countless poems of the past, actually. In poetry, if you don't make a masterpiece, you make nothing. To the German poet: sum up your whole poem in just one verse. Then you'll have the first verse of a decent poem.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:37:06 2013 No.4342397 >>4342387 lol no it was just lacking in aesthetic intensity

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:37:06 2013 No.4342398 >>4342303 What about it? I assume you didn't read the german version, right?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:42:06 2013 No.4342407 >>4342191 As an Irishman I nearly shed a tear. This is fantastic.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:43:06 2013 No.4342410

I'm a huge fan of the Gomorrah poet. I've got four poems on my HD that I believe were written by him. Conversed with him a bit too. Good guy. Best writer I've seen on /lit/ by some distance. I'll post the poems of his, other than the Belfast one which has been posted:

A man has told me god is good,
and stands above all men,
that he will never cast us forth,
though drenched with lust and sin,
That though we heed him little,
and pursue our own accord
he will not seek our bane nor yet,
unsheath his deadly sword
that he forgives excesses
and will not our prayers reject.

There was rumor in Gomorrah,
to that very same effect.

A friend avers that government,
has all our cares in mind.
And will not neglect the comfort of
the poor, the halt, the blind.
he maintains unreservedly,
his faith in policy.
to bring the fruits of honor to
the strong the just, the free.
he says the great in power seek
the profit of all men

It was mentioned in Treblinka,
but I did not heed it then.

Technology will save us,
i have heard a stranger say.
The wonderment of science,
skill, and tools will win the day.
Our comfort and our safety
we may leave to wise devices.
And men who build and train them up,
will coddle all our vices.
they'll see the futre clearly
and avert all waiting dooms.

I think I heard it spoken in
Titanic's smoking rooms.

The forgiveness of the strong is great,
I'm sure most meen agree.
The wisest and the best of us
will surely all be free.
the bold men, wise in letters
with their eye on public weal.
will never be cast out or forced
their knowledge to conceal.
Time alters soon the hearts of kings,
and all will be put right.

I heard it in the Gulag
almost every single night.

So go forth with the banner
of of redemption wafting high
and shout the slogan "Liberty!"
in land and sea and sky.
Of justice, peace, forgiveness, love,
proclaim the coming reign.
And cry the truth to power,
and the vanity of gain
That mercy always triumphs,
and that men will all be free.

Go tell them in Gomorrah,
but you didn't come from me.

>>4342407
Same. I honestly find myself thinking of this guy's poems time after time. They're a thing of beauty.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:45:08 2013 No.4342414

>>4342410
Here's another great one that I assume to be his. The style of writing is similar, and it has the familiar uncapitalised writing. I reckon it was his. Either way, it's another excellent poem.

Travelogue

"Pray What is the news from Babylon?
Does Xerxes ancient town,
Still hold inside the Lion's Pride?
where once the world bowed down?"
"There is no tale of Babylon,
that great long-storied land
The Lion's gates are broken now.
The fields are choked with sand"

"You Tread the Path from Illion
Where gods and men did greet,
Does Priams mighty fortress still,
Show all assault defeat?"
"What gods have sown, the raven reaps,
I offer you no joy
neath broken stones her treasure sleeps
I bear no news of Troy."

"Speak, pilgrim, of Jerusalem,
I know you passed that way.
The palmer's badge adorn's you yet:
does David's line hold sway?"
"Where prophets sowed the seed of love,
the weeds of hate now grow:
the peace that was Jerusalem
was broken long ago."

"well, traveller, What of Camelot?
does Arthur's blood still reign?
Do boldy go the shining knights
across the feudal plain?"
"A trusted friend's betrayal;
a bastard's vaunting greed.
The moon that watches camelot
sees stones upon a mead."

"Good host, I beg you, ask no more
you waken in my mind
the shadows of vain, fallen hopes
I fain would leave behind.
You long for comfort; this i know,
that grandeur might abide,
that strength of stone and arms and hearts
can bear the waxing tide,
And Gilgamesh the strong yet stands
upon his mighty wall.
That works endure the waning sands,
that towers might not fall.
Content yourself that legends live
where men are just or brave,
and deeds of lives may yet survive
their castles in the grave.
I will not comfort you with hopes
that Rome may live again;
don't ask me of Tenoctitlan,
I've no news from Berlin.
In sorrow i depart you now;
regretting lenten cheer.
But the road is long
towards London town,
i cannot linger here."

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:47:06 2013 No.4342419

>>4342414
In fact this post
http://fuuka.warosu.org/lit/thread/S2463616#p2465003

Just confirmed to me that he was in fact the writer of "Travelogue". Really though, I know some anon is about to come in and shit on everyone and declare that /lit/'s resident bard isn't good at all for some reason or other, but does anyone else admire this guy's writing?

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:49:06 2013 No.4342422

>>4342419
And I must thank the guy's who reminded me of him by discussing him earlier, for I've just found one I hadn't seen before. I like to keep my favorite /lit/ poems. I'll add this to the collection on my Kindle.

A Walk in the Wind

Out in the northwoods the weather freezes
and winters blast is like summer breezes
there's a bundeled up girl, that laughs and teases
and for a walk in the wind we go.

She's a tender bit, with the smallest smile
That you'd think would the coldest of hearts beguile
And it might be so, for the first bright mile
as we dance through the sighing snow

And the second mile is a merry lark
and the old pine wood isn't all that dark
and the drifting white hides the least foot mark
why should aprehensions grow?

Why we're almost there, so we'd best behave
see the big iron pot? see the axe by the cave?
why i guess it does look a bit like a grace
but its oh so much deeper, you know

She shivers then, and stares around
At the deep white snow on the trackless ground
at the pines that swallow the loudest sound
as the flames neath the kettle grow

be a brave girl now, no time for tears
see there's things far worse than your darkest fears
and I've told that tale for years and years
It would have helped you a touch to know

now she's mostly gone, though unforgotten
partly eat, and partly rotten
a fate for which we were all begotten
and a gnawed pile of bones below

so I must venture out and seek another
sister sweet or tender brother
perhaps her fearful, anxious mother
will follow me through the snow

When for a walk in the wind,
for a walk in the wind,
for a walk in the wind-i-go...

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:52:06 2013 No.4342428

>>4342397
Be more precise. Did you read the german version? Do you know the ambigue meaning of a Pinselstreich? The whole theme with the colours? Schall und Rauch? The poem starting a dialogue with itself in the fourth verse?

>>4342387
But that would mean giving up many of the nuances that the current form makes possible. The slow descent from gods to rocks would also feel very rushed and with less impact.
Can you show me a poem with as much expression in just one verse?

I don't want to come off as smug. I honestly want to know, because as everyone I want to improve. But I don't think you guys fully understood my poem.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:52:06 2013 No.4342434

A poem I wrote the other day. Could lit tell me how it could be improved? Fell free to tear it to shreds, I'm not terribly experienced with verse, I'm more of a prose guy generally. I just fell like I've gotten to a place I'm comfortable with thematically and now I really need to hammer out my style and form

It centres around the Gaelic God Oenghus who fell in love with a woman that appeared to him in a dream.

The Dream of Oenghus

He tossed and turned
On bed of iron and bone
Cold fret and sweat
All burst into the Boyne

And woke with start
Still half asleep
Half-wrapped in long, white tender she
Half ghost, half vision burned
Into his soul

Her foxglove lipped
And freckled face
Came fevering to a head
Upon his brow
Sweat bead did swell
And break his sleep of lead

He came upright
Hugged gilded cloth
And tore it at the seam
His fingers slipped
Through perfumed smoke
A Maiden? Vision? Dream?

And now awake
He stood as iron
All braced against the cold
And shook the sheets
And felt her flesh
Ran fingers through the fold

So there he lay
And closed his eyes
And wished her back to substance
And lay till light
Pooled on the stone
And glutted on her absence

He shouldered sun
And kicked at leaves
And froze his veins in Winter
The ground grew frost
And like a bird
He fatted on his hunger

The God grew light
His bones exposed
His ribs she’d strike in order
He breathing in
Her ghostly chords
That played at dreaming’s border

An age had passed
He hungered still
And sought the Gods’ physician
Who stretched him out
And saw his flesh
All marked with love’s attrition

He took a jar
With leeches full
And offered God as host
And though they held
And drank his blood
The youth loved still her ghost

And so the healer
Knew the cure
And sent for the ollathair
Who crept like mist
‘round Erin’s hills
To find his young son’s lover.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:53:06 2013 No.4342435

The Ninth Life

he is careful of dogs now:
he makes shorter leaps
and he stays on the inside,
when frost starts to creep

round the borders of windows.
he still walks the ledges
but nowadays two or three steps
from the edges.

The mice whom his forays
would terrify nightly
he just looks on and nods
as they pass him,
politely

When he dreams of the kitten
of eight lives before
he shudders, and takes
a slow stroll to the door

And I rise and assist him
out into the sun
and he shuffles along
where he once used to run

And I take shorter steps
and I take smaller breaths
and I want to inquire
about his other deaths

But he'd just raise an eyebrow
and look up to heaven
and say "I wouldn't worry
till you get past seven."

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:54:06 2013 No.4342437

>>4342434
Second Part

The Daghda fell
Among the fey
Their voices rang like bells
He stepped across
The sandy shores
He sang unto the shells

His song it rang
From coral’s depth
And sailed on to the south
It skimmed the lake
And found a girl
Inside the Dragon’s Mouth

So Oenghus rushed
The youth took wing
To lakeside green and shady
And there he found
Thrice-fifty swans
Where once had stood a lady

The God’s eyes fell
His form still gaunt
He reckoned now her bane
To strip off skin
And sprout white wings
A royal bird to feign

He heard her chord
He heard her cry
That same haunting note
It leapt unto
His heart again
But now from feathered throat

He shimmered there
He sailed across
And bade the flock disperse
He wrung his hands
He stroked her wings
And freed her of the curse

And so they met
And they embraced
In glow of passion’s hearth
And lost their form
And turned to dreams
They sleep now in the earth

ENDS

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 12:55:06 2013 No.4342438 How do I go about learning poetry? The basics, I mean, I've been interested in it for a while but I've never been sure where to start.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:09:06 2013 No.4342457 >>4342438 Stephen Fry's The Ode Less Travelled

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:17:56 2013 No.4342472 >>4342457 Bah, can't find it on /rs/, isohunt, tpb or gutenberg. Will have to wait for a while for the money.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:17:56 2013 No.4342473 >>4342457 can anyone get me a pdf or kindle file of this? I can't find it anywhere

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:17:56 2013 No.4342475

>>4342434
I want to say a slightly more --Irish lyric style might serve you better, though i'd make it you're more than halfway to it already.

"on bed of iron and bone
all night he tossed and turned
and cold and pent
in fret and sweat
he from his dream returned

Astart he wakes,
and upstart grasps
the fading form
that erst he clasps,
a-vain and arrant: all is mist
and that fair form
that late he kissed,
now burns, a vison in his breast.
and from his mind there flies all rest."

Something along those lines.

but i think you've got something good going here.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:22:55 2013 No.4342486

>>4342165
you're a fucking idiot because there aren't any rules. theory is descriptive. you even acknowledge this in your post, then continue to imply that you can somehow break the rules by playing something the people around you aren't generally doing.
guess what: blue notes (you would know why this is plural if you knew anything about the history of them) have been present in african music since forever. there was nothing "new" about them.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:23:55 2013 No.4342492 >>4342475 As an Irishman I would hope that my lyrical style is somewhat "Irish" ha! But thank you very much, your suggestions have been taken into account and I'll be tweaking it a bit. Thanks again!

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:26:55 2013 No.4342498 >>4342492 As a fellow Irishman I don't like it. You've obviously got ability but I don't like the mention of abstract concepts where a physical metaphor could substitute. I just think physical or literal things carry far more power in them.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:30:55 2013 No.4342510

>>4342498
I understand entirely where you're coming from. I totally get the appeal of grounding work in the physical, it does give one's writing a gravity and weight that is advantageous.

But I've also been fascinated by more abstract descriptions, I find their beauty and dreamlike nature gorgeously intangible.

Different strokes I guess.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:31:55 2013 No.4342512 >>4342510 Indeed, it is different strokes. It was probably wrong of me to suggest that one style was necessarily better than the other. i'm just quite partisan about what I like.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:34:56 2013 No.4342520 >>4342512 Not at all friend, we all have our preferences and a little grounding and physicality works wonders every now and then. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, I can keep it in mind now and really spice it up in my next piece

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:34:56 2013 No.4342521

>>4342492
Well, you have a decent harp ballad structure going if you conventionalize it a bit.

A good irish harp ballad has a steady, rhythmic style with a lot of predictability, and it shows your skill by how cleverly and meomorably you work evocative phrases in while telling your story.

also, duals will help you. There are a few already in there, and you seem to have the grasp of what they're for, but you want your reader/hearer to be able to half predict them.

tossed and turned, iron and bone, fret and sweat, all good, and the "fatted" and "glutted" bits have work nicely too, though they would be hard to sing with a lilt.

You do the verbs right, and neglect the articles as you should though. i'd like it better if it it fit the traditional mold a bit closer, but i don't fault it for innovation.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:37:01 2013 No.4342529 >>4342473 Seconding this question.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:41:41 2013 No.4342535 >>4342521 Criticism very much appreciated and taken on board.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:47:41 2013 No.4342547 Without overvaluing him, the Gomorrah guy is good, a real poet. Does he have some kind of name, a mail, a hideaway or something?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:47:41 2013 No.4342548 >>4342435 is this the gomorrah guy's?

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:48:41 2013 No.4342551

How does everyone here feel about definite structure and rhyme scheme in poetry

I know I (I'm the guy who wrote the Oenghus poem above) tend to write with a definite structure, rhythm and usually a fairly consistent rhyme.

Many of the other poets I know tend to be more free verse which I understand. But I just feel like there's a beauty to constraint and traditional form. There's a beauty that comes from working within definite borders and it can often make it a more enjoyable experience for the reader.

Now they are free verse poets that I like (Whitman and Ginsberg are particular favourites) but I just feel that in writing my own poetry I can't help but sense an arrogance in free verse. Definite rhyme was good enough for Keats and Shelley but I'm somehow above it?

How do you guys feel?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:48:41 2013 No.4342555 >>4342457 This a thousand times. It's fun and has all the basics. Definitely worth the money.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:51:41 2013 No.4342565

>>4342551
Well, it's definitely much harder because there is so much good structured poems. You have to be well read and unique. The words have to roll of the tonque yet not feel constrained at all. Keep the structure, keep the form but make it "feel" like free verse.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:52:41 2013 No.4342567 >/lit/ trying to talk about poetry kek

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:53:41 2013 No.4342568 >>4340685 there is a lot of embarrassing music too.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:56:42 2013 No.4342579 >>4342567 Since you're not identifying with /lit/ i'm thinking you are from /mu/, are you saying that you're better?

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:57:42 2013 No.4342581

>>4342547
I find his stuff on blogs and things sometimes, but it's always been somebody who copied it from here. I think this is his, but not sure.:

Walking at the mall on a Snowy Evening

Whose store was this, was this old Bens?
Sold flavored popcorn packed in tins?
He will not mind me resting here
to watch them put the Starbucks in

My college friends say only queers
when they could be home drinking beers
and watching football glumly trudge
past Gap and Deb and empty Sears

But my cholesterol is high
My doctor told me, "walk, or die."
And so I stalk up wheelchair ramps
in Nike trainers, suit and tie

The mall is humid, loud and bright
And "Jersey Shore" is on tonight
And now I'll probably miss the fight
I guess I'll miss the fucking fight.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 13:58:41 2013 No.4342584 >>4342579 >thinks I have to identify with a board to criticize another kek

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:00:41 2013 No.4342589 >>4342548 I think so too. >>4342581 Nah. That's an obvious Frost parody. Not his style I think. He told me once he was from Dublin and in his 30s but that was about it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:01:41 2013 No.4342591 >>4342584 are you criticizing? which critiques are yours?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:04:42 2013 No.4342592 tbh I don't see how that gomorrah guy is so good. He talks about really trite stuff in his poems with very little interesting things to show it with

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:05:42 2013 No.4342599 >>4342592 I'm nearly the guy's fucking agent at this point with the amount I praise his stuff. You may as well tell me what you don't like in his poetry. I'm interested by that post.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:11:41 2013 No.4342616 >>4342599 I don't care enough to go in depth but all his stuff just reads like overly-sentimental crap on my mom's fridge.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:12:41 2013 No.4342617 >>4342616 Why not? I think I could give a thousand reasons why it's very original poetry indeed, devoid of almost any "tropes" of poetry and with some wonderfully memorable diction. Your criticism is quite lazy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:16:30 2013 No.4342623 >>4342617 Because I'm posting on 4chan, tired, and have no inclination to not be lazy. You seem personally offended. You could go in depth about how it's good though, I'll read it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:18:29 2013 No.4342628 >>4342623 I'm not personally offended at all, it ain't my stuff. What lines in particular do you find sentimental? Particularly in Travelogue or Jesus in Belfast, which are his best IMO.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:27:30 2013 No.4342651 >>4342473 http://forum.mobilism.org/viewtopic.php?p=1182923 Testing it now.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:29:17 2013 No.4342659 >>4342651 Scanned for viruses, checked content. It's good. Sorry about the shitty file hosting.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:31:14 2013 No.4342666

>>4342414

yall are confusing limericks with poetry

rhyme hasnt been an essential part of poetry for many many years

in fact the quickest way to spot an amateur is to read a poem that rhymes, an example john ashbury is arguably the greatest living poet. one of his poems...
Just Walking Around
What name do I have for you?
Certainly there is not name for you
In the sense that the stars have names
That somehow fit them. Just walking around,

An object of curiosity to some,
But you are too preoccupied
By the secret smudge in the back of your soul
To say much and wander around,

Smiling to yourself and others.
It gets to be kind of lonely
But at the same time off-putting.
Counterproductive, as you realize once again

That the longest way is the most efficient way,
The one that looped among islands, and
You always seemed to be traveling in a circle.
And now that the end is near

The segments of the trip swing open like an orange.
There is light in there and mystery and food.
Come see it.
Come not for me but it.
But if I am still there, grant that we may see each other.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:32:14 2013 No.4342669

>>4342666

>Just Walking Around

>What name do I have for you?
>Certainly there is not name for you
>In the sense that the stars have names
>That somehow fit them. Just walking around,
>An object of curiosity to some,
>But you are too preoccupied
>By the secret smudge in the back of your soul
>To say much and wander around,
>Smiling to yourself and others.
>It gets to be kind of lonely
>But at the same time off-putting.
>Counterproductive, as you realize once again
>That the longest way is the most efficient way,
>The one that looped among islands, and
>You always seemed to be traveling in a circle.
>And now that the end is near
>The segments of the trip swing open like an orange.
>There is light in there and mystery and food.
>Come see it.
>Come not for me but it.
>But if I am still there, grant that we may see each other.

Just Walking Around
What name do I have for you?
Certainly there is not name for you
In the sense that the stars have names
That somehow fit them. Just walking around,

An object of curiosity to some,
But you are too preoccupied
By the secret smudge in the back of your soul
To say much and wander around,

Smiling to yourself and others.
It gets to be kind of lonely
But at the same time off-putting.
Counterproductive, as you realize once again

That the longest way is the most efficient way,
The one that looped among islands, and
You always seemed to be traveling in a circle.
And now that the end is near

The segments of the trip swing open like an orange.
There is light in there and mystery and food.
Come see it.
Come not for me but it.
But if I am still there, grant that we may see each other.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:32:31 2013 No.4342674 >>4342666 It doesn't matter. Many people reject modern and post-modern poetry for the confessional shit the vast majority of it is. If Yeats, Frost, Tennyson and Kipling could rhyme, then fuck it it's not a bad example to follow.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:36:30 2013 No.4342681

>>4342623
well, the Travelogue poem contains a verse where the guy is wearing a palm leaf, the "palmer's badge" refered to by the inquirer which shows that he's been to jerusalem. David's line is referred to, and jesus is supposed to have been in david's line, and the question is sort of is jerusalem christian? Then there's the name: jerusalem" means city of peace, so "the peace that was jerusalem" was broken, as the city was broken, into different sections that hate one another. this is all pretty elaborate for a single verse in a poem on 4chan, and the author doesn't bother pointing out the depths, and you don't need to know any of that stuff to get the point of the verse. I'd call that pretty clever.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:38:31 2013 No.4342685 >>4342651 epub doesn't open on kindle ;_;

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:40:30 2013 No.4342691 >>4342685 Jesus christ you noob. Just use Calibre or Aldiko (app)

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:40:30 2013 No.4342693 >>4342685 Do what I did, convert it to .mobi in Calibre.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:41:30 2013 No.4342697 >>4342681 That's fine and all, but cleverness doesn't make good poetry...

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:41:30 2013 No.4342698

>>4342666
not saying rhyme is essential exactly. There are lots of good poets that never use it, or any kind of scansion. But it's one of those tricks that if you can do it well, by all means do it: It makes a good poem easy to remember and shows your versatility and imagination in a way that might be harder to see in a free verse poem. You can see it as setting artificial limits on yourself, like telling a story while also juggling and riding a unicycle, but the reason of rhyme and rhythm is still valid. Just not as vital to master as it used to be.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:43:30 2013 No.4342704 >>4342697 That's a lazy dismissal of an in-depth explanation of why it was good. You seem rather determined to dislike it to be honest.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:43:30 2013 No.4342705 Why is everyone praising that gomorrah guy so much? I can't help but feel like you people haven't read much poetry or something.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:43:46 2013 No.4342707

>>4342697
No, I admit it would still be an excellent poem without the cleverness. That's what I meant when I said you could still appreciate the poem even if you didn't know any of that. The cleverness doesn't intrude or distract, which is one of my chief complaints with a lot of free verse or traditional poetry.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:44:46 2013 No.4342711 >>4342704 I don't know what you mean with that last statement. But I don't read poetry for clever little worldplays to get at a statement as bland as "well Jerusalem was broken into many factions and no longer at peace!" It's all rather insipid to me.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:46:46 2013 No.4342715

>>4342705
I majored in English lit and poetry was my specialty. I studied the works of 16-17th century poets the most, particularly the British poets with allegiance to the Whigs, but I'm a huge fan of poetry and read it more than prose.

It's not because we don't read. The guy is genuinely talented.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:49:46 2013 No.4342723 >>4342715 Emmet?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:49:46 2013 No.4342726 >>4342715 To be honest I'm not interested in your merits, but your merits should allow you to make a in-depth argument as to why this guy is good. Please, let me understand your reasoning.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:49:46 2013 No.4342727 >>4342723 Yes?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:49:46 2013 No.4342728 >>4340685 >why is it poetry Because love, and rhyming d-bags Apart from that, dancing.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:51:46 2013 No.4342731

>>4342705
well, nobody's saying he's Carl Sandburg or William Carlos Williams. Just that he's the best, or at least one of the best, we've seen on /lit/. And while that might be sort of like being the hottest chick on The View, he's still worthy of a look. I do see things he could change in a few places, but in general, I have very little negative to say about his stuff. It's fun, doesn't take itself that seriously and is actually pretty memorable.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:53:32 2013 No.4342739 >>4342731 I have no idea how "what if jesus was one of us" is very memorable.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:56:31 2013 No.4342747

>>4342711
well there's no accounting for taste. I like the fact that "city of Peace" was broken, Peace was broken, and "the piece (peace) that was "the city of peace" was broken. granted it can seem overly clever if you look at it, but you might know none of those things and it would still work. Shakespeare did that a lot. Not that this guy is shakespeare, but he's also not just some guy with a rhyming dictionary and a word processor.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:58:31 2013 No.4342756 >>4342739 Are you talking about the Belfast poem in that post?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 14:59:31 2013 No.4342758 >>4342739 Hmmm. What do you know about Belfast? I have a feeling some of this may be going over your head.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:00:53 2013 No.4342762 >>4342758 Exactly what I was thinking. That poem has a brilliant profundity to it. Wonderful way of dealing with the sectarian tensions.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:03:31 2013 No.4342773 I used to write poetry and compose a lot of piano music. I know none of the terminology or common theory for either artforms but was able to compose both soundly. I think some people are naturally adept. Dunno.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:03:31 2013 No.4342774 >>4342758 >>4342762 yeah politics sure lends itself to great art

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:04:31 2013 No.4342778 >>4342774 Really? I mean, really? Have you ever read.. anything? Do you realize how much of Shakespeare's work was influenced by political affair?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:07:31 2013 No.4342789 >>4342726 If you're not interested in his merits then why did you question them?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:08:32 2013 No.4342795 >>4342774 At this point it has become wholly clear that this individual is trolling. Everyone please move along.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:08:32 2013 No.4342796 >>4342778 There's a difference between making a play to display some mythic image of a past king and making a poem about current politics.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:09:31 2013 No.4342800 >>4342796 >current You mean the entire history of a country going back over 500 years.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:11:31 2013 No.4342805 >>4342789 I want his argument not his merits, how is that hard to understand? I'm hoping that his mertis will lend itself to a good argument that is well formulated and thought out.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:12:31 2013 No.4342807 >>4342796 What? I think you might have misunderstood Shakespeare here. It was very much current for its time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:12:31 2013 No.4342808 >>4342805 How can you ask him to give a well thought out argument when you said yourself you just weren't arsed to give one as to why YOUR opinion is so staunchly against the opinion of pretty much everyone else on his poetry.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:13:31 2013 No.4342813 >>4342800 I don't see yhour point.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:14:31 2013 No.4342814

>>4342567
So often does the cold wind blow
Bringing rain or with it snow
I cannot help but want to know
From where it comes and where it goes
And so I don my winter clothes
A hat and scarf to warm my noes
And leather boots
With silver toes
A gun that shoots
Big fat hoes
Like you
#rekt

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:14:31 2013 No.4342816 >>4342813 Your point that politics has no place in art is laughable anyway. I don't need to elaborate on why. It's obvious that you're trolling.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:14:31 2013 No.4342817 >>4342808 He's not the same person lol. And maybe he expects a good argument because you seem really heated and impassioned about this.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:15:31 2013 No.4342818

>>4342808
I haven't given my opinion at all. I think you might be thinking that you are arguing against someone else entirely (probably the person who thinks himself an agent of the Belfast poet). So what I'm saying is that i'm very much INTERESTED in his opinion.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:15:31 2013 No.4342819 >>4342817 I'm not the impassioned guy either. Just a watcher of people claiming they think the guy's poetry is shit not elaborating on why because they're too tired.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:15:31 2013 No.4342820 >>4342816 Politics is transitory and unimportant, it has no place in art and the aesthetic. Fucking deal with it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:17:31 2013 No.4342825 >>4342820 Tell that to Pope, Shakespeare, Yeats, Frost, Tennyson, Heaney, Kipling and Goldsmith off the top of my head you fuck.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:17:31 2013 No.4342826 >>4342819 And you're also a watcher of people claiming they think his poetry is great and not elaborating. You still seem a little assmad about this. Starting to think this is just the gomorrah dude samefagging his stupid paddy shit into oblivion.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:18:34 2013 No.4342830 >>4342825 Yeats actually claimed that he was above politics. He explicitly stated it was unimportant in comparison to his esoteric and spiritual studies, which he said were the basis of his art and aesthetic.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:19:34 2013 No.4342833 >>4342826 Nah. There's far too many posters for any of them to be him in my eyes. >>4342830 >above politics That's why he was a fucking senator then eh?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:20:33 2013 No.4342839 >>4342825 Yep, all people who could make good poems about real aesthetic bliss and timeless human issues. Sure wish that other guy could do that, but instead he just wrote shit limericks about muh religion and muh ireland.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:21:33 2013 No.4342841 >>4342839 Yeah. Those great timeless human issues explored in Easter 1916 and September 1913, Yeats' two most famous poems. Dickwad. And the Dunciad. I need not even ask you if you're trolling.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:22:33 2013 No.4342843 >>4342833 >That's why he was a fucking senator then eh? Well that doesn't disprove my point. He definitely thought it unimportant compared to the more spiritual aspects of Irish nationalism and this is probably why he was a fucking fascist.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:22:33 2013 No.4342846

>>434282

Interesting. I honestly never heard that opinion expressed before. and the opposite quite a few times.

I'm not sure anybody is passionately defending the Belfast poet or gommorah guy or whatever. It's more of a "we like his stuff, we think he's pretty good, and here's why" Nobody has said he's better than Byron or anything. He's mostly just good and memorable and one of the best original writers on /lit/. Or I'll go so far as to say , on the internet in general. I bet we hear more from him someday, and possibly in a professional venue. He might not be perfect, but he's got something. And i wouldn't mind seeing more of it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:23:33 2013 No.4342847 This thread seems derailed, so I might as well ask. What would be a good way to start writing poetry? Who are essential poets, and how can I better understand what makes a poem good?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:23:34 2013 No.4342849 >>4342841 Yep, great poems about timeless issues. Nothing of the shitty and insipid nature of the jesus in belfast poem.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:23:34 2013 No.4342850 >>4342843 >fucking fascist. Jesus Christ. You know absolutely nothing about Yeats. Read September 1913 again you uncultured philistine. And he thought politics incredibly important, hence the rage that permeated so many of his political poetry.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:24:34 2013 No.4342853 >>4342849 Nah. That's blatant trolling right there. The issues are interchangeable.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:25:34 2013 No.4342855 >>4342839 hmmm. Limericks? did I miss something?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:27:33 2013 No.4342859 >>4342847 Start by understanding poetry, it's structure, it's complexity, themes, plots and enviroments. It's not easy. You need a book (ode less travelled is a good start.)

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:27:33 2013 No.4342862

>>4342850

Yeats was an elitist who believed in eugenics and the degeneration of modern society. He was pretty close to a fascist.

In fact, the poem you reference, September 1913, has plenty of fascist sentiments.

He raged at the degeneration of his society, this is true - mainly because everyone paid so much attention to petty things like their politics instead of muh aristocratic and romantic values.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:28:33 2013 No.4342866 >>4342862 read the poem or read the author

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:30:33 2013 No.4342869

>>4342862
>September 1913, has plenty of fascist sentiments

It really doesn't. The poem stemmed from rage about philistines hating on based art. From there it grew to the aristocrats rejecting art in favour of commerce and developing a false connection to their religion.

If anything the poem is a lament of the loss of pride in the art, the identity, the love of our country.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:30:33 2013 No.4342871 >>4342849 why not walk us through the reasons you think it's shitty and insipid? It's not long, and I'd really like to know. I'm not seeing the insipid here, though shitty is probably a matter of opinion.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:31:33 2013 No.4342872 >>4342859 thanks for the input! I just needed someone to point me in the right direction. I'll read it this week.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:32:33 2013 No.4342875 >>4342869 >If anything the poem is a lament of the loss of pride in the art, the identity, the love of our country. Dude that's really fucking fascist. Maybe you don't understand what fascism is.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:33:33 2013 No.4342880

>>4342875
No. You've seen love of country and immediately equated that with jingoistic attachment. Yeats hated romanticised heroes and their blunt self sacrifice, as he said about Wolfe Tone and co. Hence his love for John O'Leary. Your reading of September 1913 is very superficial.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:33:33 2013 No.4342882

>>4342872
>thanks for the input! I just needed someone to point me in the right direction. I'll read it this week.

For me that was the starting point, after that you need "The Book", the one that lets you really get it. It could be anyone, for me it was a russian soviet communist named Mayakovsky. Since that moment I never turned my back on poetyr.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:34:33 2013 No.4342884 >>4342871 I don't have anything to point out - exactly because it is fucking insipid. It's bland, it has nothing at all to contribute. It's clearly the product of an individual raised on television and movies with a brain dead to artistic drives.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:36:33 2013 No.4342888 >>4342884 >>4342419 >". Really though, I know some anon is about to come in and shit on everyone and declare that /lit/'s resident bard isn't good at all Called it

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:38:34 2013 No.4342890 >>4342880 You're speaking nonsense at this point. You don't know a thing about Yeats or the cultural climate that created fascism.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:38:34 2013 No.4342891

>>4342884
See, I get exactly the opposite impression. There's a quiet humor, a bit of ire, and a lot of sympathy. It's never saccharine, maudlin or overtly sentimental and it makes a pretty harsh point with appropriate delicacy without losing the bluntness appropriate to the topic.

Man I sound like I'm the guy's publicist now. I'm beginning to wonder if you're the author and are just egging us all on to get more compliments.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:40:33 2013 No.4342894 >>4342888 No one thinks he's the resident bard except for the writer and two other people at most. He's mediocre at best, and everyone else knows it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:41:33 2013 No.4342899 >>4342894 That's completely wrong. Look through the archive. Many, many people like his poetry.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:41:33 2013 No.4342900 >>4342891 You may think it is humorous or angry or sympathetic. But it never made me feel humorous or angry or sympathetic. Because it was boring shit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:42:33 2013 No.4342902 >>4342899 >You're wrong! A lot of people like him! They do! My dad could beat your dad up! you're a pathetic commoner

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:48:33 2013 No.4342916 >>4342882 Hmm, I suppose once I read Ode less traveled I'll understand what kind of book to look for.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:50:06 2013 No.4342920 >>4342902 see, this is trollery. "i don't like it" or "i find it trite" is a valid statement. Now you're just attacking the other posters. Got anything you like better from /lit/? I'd be surprised.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 15:58:05 2013 No.4342945 >>4342916 Not really, I found my book and that is what brought me to ode less travelled and furhter. An important point is not to make poetry a political statement, read and consider. I love both sides for the own and unique reasons.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 16:02:06 2013 No.4342958 >>4342773 You're not trained enough to realize your work is unoriginal shit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 16:04:05 2013 No.4342962 >>4342958 are you familiar with his work or is this more trollery?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 16:09:05 2013 No.4342976 >>4342962 It's trollery, but seriously, I've met many "self taught" pianists whose music is completely uninspired. They think what they wrote is beautiful, when really they just stumbled on a scale that sounds okay.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 16:09:06 2013 No.4342974

Is this the belfast guy? I saved it a month or two ago from a peotry thread but don't rmemebr the context, but it seems to be similar to some of his stuff posted here.

I sing the god carcinoma
devourer of beggar and saint.
across all our tissue
the bulls he gives issue
make every is into an ain't

I sing the mighty sarcoma
Consuming the daft and the wise
In the pallid lymph courses
he marshalls his forces
Decembering all our Julys

Come give us the hymn "melanoma"
the bane of both pauper and prince
when the cool probe insults
and we wait the results,
and the specialist cannot but wince

we sacrifice things on their altars
a lobe or a limb or an eye,
that our doings without
may appease them no doubt
that this bribe might just let us get by.

But the comfort of friends is not cheering
and the struggle does not give release
and the glance of an eye
and the tremor and sigh
and the long dismal wait for decease

Oh drink you the health of Lymphoma:
requiter of dread and despair
and the step on the scale
as it tells a new tale
of a soon to be vacanted chair

But we had some good laughs with him didn't we?
and he made a good run of it though;
have another small round,
he won't wake at the sound.
take the bottle back home as you go.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 16:20:07 2013 No.4343005 Is there any reason to write a poem instead of a novel or short story, besides they're more emotional, and therefore contemptible?

>>	Fandroid !p6ktXMpsfc Fri Dec 6 16:22:07 2013 No.4343014 >>4342976 Do you only hang around middle school kids or what? also >anectdotal evidence

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 16:23:07 2013 No.4343017 >>4343005 A poem is a short memorable way to get an idea across. At its best poetry is elegant, concise, to the point and evocative. A good poem is also easy to spot most of the time. Whereas a novel's quality is more open to debate.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 16:27:07 2013 No.4343027 >>4343005 A poem is using the form of the text to help expressing the ideas of the text.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 16:28:07 2013 No.4343030 >>4342974 Yeah, I think that's his too. Forgot to post that one. Great poem.

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 16:54:07 2013 No.4343092

>>4343005
>Anonymous 12/06/13(Fri)15:09 UTC-6 No.4342974Replies: >>4343030
>Is this the belfast guy? I saved it a month or two ago from a peotry thread but don't rmemebr the context, but it seems to be similar to some of his stuff posted here.
>I sing the god carcinoma
>devourer of beggar and saint.
>across all our tissue
>the bulls he gives issue
>make every is into an ain't
>I sing the mighty sarcoma
>Consuming the daft and the wise
>In the pallid lymph courses
>he marshalls his forces
>Decembering all our Julys
>Come give us the hymn "melanoma"
>the bane of both pauper and prince
>when the cool probe insults
>and we wait the results,
>and the specialist cannot but wince
>we sacrifice things on their altars
>a lobe or a limb or an eye,
>that our doings without
>may appease them no doubt
>that this bribe might just let us get by.
>But the comfort of friends is not cheering
>and the struggle does not give release
>and the glance of an eye
>and the tremor and sigh
>and the long dismal wait for decease
>Oh drink you the health of Lymphoma:
>requiter of dread and despair
>and the step on the scale
>as it tells a new tale
>of a soon to be vacanted chair
>But we had some good laughs with him didn't we?
>and he made a good run of it though;
>have another small round,
>he won't wake at the sound.
>take the bottle back home as you go.

for starters, you dont normally write a poem in place of a novel. you write a collection of poems. the reason most writers dont write poetry is because it is by far the most difficult type of writing. think about all the great novelists throughout history, then think about the number of great novelists who wrote poetry. there aren't very many. because writing good poetry is a difficult thing to do.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 6 17:21:07 2013 No.4343152 >>4341726 (this is bullshit, meter in poetry can obviously be learned, just as composition through music theory can be learned)

Anonymous Fri Dec 6 17:42:07 2013 No.4343222

Just read the thread. Belfast guy is very good. I think the detractors are trolling. Might be the best poetry I've come across online, which says something for /lit/ I think. But then i like this place so go figure. Out of curiosity, are there any other places online with really good poets? I never find anything memorable except here.

Anonymous Sat Dec 7 08:19:42 2013 No.4344883

>>4343152
It can be learnt to analyse, but to write in meter requires a specific talent. That's what I was trying to tell. I know plent of people who know how a meter works, how poems utilize it, how to analyze it, but none of those people can actually write poems themselves, which they all admit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 7 08:29:42 2013 No.4344891 >>4342890 'The cultural climate that created fascism' =/= fascism, for very obvious logical reasons.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 7 08:33:42 2013 No.4344892 >>4342589 >He told me once he was from Dublin Heh, figures. Why is Ireland so literate, bros?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 7 08:36:42 2013 No.4344897 File: 32 KB, 514x352, 1375126641001.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4342428 Tobi ist gut jetzt s'reicht

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 7 08:47:42 2013 No.4344909 >>4344897 Then give proper criticism.

Anonymous Sat Dec 7 08:50:42 2013 No.4344914

>>4343152
well, part of the problem with writing good poetry is that it is sort of easy to learn the basics. When there's something everybody can do, still not everybody can do it well. and it might be hard to tell you're not doing it well. Think how many fiction writers fill their stories with the same characters, events and descriptions that they see in other works, but can't tell that there's a big difference between Lord of the Rings and their silly elf fest. You need more than just skill and understanding of the rules, you need imagination and discernment. Taste, if you like. You have to be able to tell good from bad, and the easier it is to do something, the harder it is to make yours stand out.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 7 11:08:33 2013 No.4345078 Good thread guys.

Anonymous Sat Dec 7 11:47:33 2013 No.4345130

So, /lit/, which is the best introduction to metre, rhyme and how to into poetry?

This thread mentions The Ode Less Travelled and All The Fun's In How You Say A Thing. Googling also suggests Paul Fussell's Poetic Meter and Poetic Form, John Hollander's Rhyme's Reason, and Derek Attridge's Poetic Rhythm: An Introduction.

Anyone read more than one of these? Care to venture an opinion about which wins for the beginner?

Anonymous Sat Dec 7 11:49:33 2013 No.4345136

>>4345130
The Ode Less Travelled. Look, there's not much difference between them all. But TOLT is the best because it makes certain things about poetry that may sometimes seem facile very interesting. It's invigorating, the exercises are good, and it's a great book not only for writing poetry but for understanding and appreciating it.

Anonymous Sat Dec 7 12:05:33 2013 No.4345171

>>4345136
Good to know,I downloaded it when it was linked earlier. Feeling oddly guilty about that, though, so I might try it out and pay for it if it's good.

It just occurred to me that a book which is a combination anthology/how to into poetry would be pretty sweet (as in having plenty of whole poems as examples, instead of just sections or lines). Haven't checked The Ode yet to see if it does this.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 7 14:41:01 2013 No.4345608 >>4342974 Anybody know how I would get permission to use this in a reading? Supposed to be poems about accepting death. should i just credit anonymous?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 7 14:45:04 2013 No.4345629 >>4345171 It doesn't really have whole poems. It does quote a multitude of poems to demonstrate certain techniques/styles though. 'In Flanders Fields' is one that I think is quoted in its entirety.

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/lit/ - Literature