/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.23049674]

Was Jesus Christ a platonist?

[Anonymous No.23049716]

No, he was a hindu with postmodern characteristics.

[Anonymous No.23049724]

>>23049674
pol told me he was a national socialist

[Anonymous No.23049787]

no, Plato was a Jesusist

[Anonymous No.23049850]

Philosophy and religion are different realms. Philosophy and science attempt to formulate truth in a propositional way, within a specialised linguistic context. Religion formulates truth with symbols, stories, images.

[Anonymous No.23049858]

>>23049674
Techinically the platonists just cracked part of god's code before god himself had to come down and confirm that it was, in fact, his code

[Anonymous No.23049860]

>>23049674
No, Plato and Christianity are two entirely unrelated things.

[Anonymous No.23049883]

>>23049674
A theologian confronted with the mystery of God is like a man standing on a beach gazing upon and seeking to traverse an infinite ocean. They use the best tools they have to hand, including the conceptual tools of analysis devised by philosophers like Plato and Aristotle. The tools don't define the mystery, they merely serve, in some limited way, to comprehend it.

[Anonymous No.23049967]

Above all else, He was a bodhisattva.

[Anonymous No.23049973]

>>23049860
i will pay someone 500 dollars to stop all the lies?

[Anonymous No.23050094]

Christianity is so beautiful, bros. How can other religions even compete?

[Anonymous No.23050129]

>>23049973
Skitz

[Anonymous No.23050432]

>>23049674
He doesn't teach reincarnation, so that's a "no" right off the bat. He's also no a philosopher; He's God. He's the object of philosophy.

There's stuff in Plato that's similar, but if you want to see how different they are just look at Saints John Chrysostom, Basil the Great, and Maximus the Confessor. St. John of Damascus' "An Exact Exposition on the Orthodox Faith" is probably the best 1st millennium qrd though.

Verification not required.

[Anonymous No.23050451]

>>23049858
Then why did he say he was fulfilling Hebrew prophesies instead of Greek wisdom.

[Anonymous No.23050757]

>>23050129
I have to listen to that nonsense until the very day I die. If only they put that effort into reading a book not aimed at four year olds. With many years work you could maybe read Book 1 of the Republic or a fragmentary Heraclitus poem.

[Anonymous No.23050759]

>>23050094
Christianity is false. I love to stick bananas up my ass and shriek like a complete ingrate that Christianity is false to all who listen. Sometimes I forget to skip a meal I hate Christianity so much.

[Anonymous No.23050785]

>>23049674
It's more likely that Plato and Socrates were Jews. Socrates by blood and Plato by conversion.

[Anonymous No.23050793]

>>23049858
Jesus Christ was damage control after leaks confirmed

[Anonymous No.23050817]

>>23050432
is a new life on a plane of existence different from our own not just reincarnation? albeit the final one.

[Anonymous No.23050824]

>>23050432
>He's also no a philosopher; He's God
God is a platonist, since platonism is true and God is Truth Itself.

[Anonymous No.23050936]

>>23050817
Not in any sense relevant to this conversation, no. Plato taught the pre-existance of souls in the world of forms and reincarnation as the foundation for his doctrine of learning as remembering. That's alien to Christianity.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.23050951]

>>23049716
jej

[Anonymous No.23051283]

>>23049674
>>23049716
>>23049724
Why are you people so intellectually incapable of grasping Scripture? Are you actually trying? Also, "platonist" should be "Platonist." A platonist is one who believes numbers are an intrinsic feature of the natural world, separate from human intellect. A Platonist is one who ascribes to Plato's Realm of Forms or other Platonic ideas.

>>23049850
They are more interrelated than you think.

>>23049787
This is closer to the truth.

>>23049860
Plato, by reasoning, came to many conclusions which are quite comparable to Scriptural rule. It is for this reason that Nietzsche supposedly called Christianity "Plato to the people"--one of the many foolish thoughts he spread. One I've seen the dilettantes of learning clutch at.

>>23049967
No, he wasn't. And neither ever has any man been.

>>23050094
By preying upon the sensuality and vanity of men, but in the end, they all come to nothing.

>>23049858
God had already revealed Himself considerably in the Tanakh. He had to, so that He could be recognized by those who awaited His coming. I suspect, but this is pure speculation mind you, that God, in His wisdom, knew the Greeks and Romans would be the first gentiles to recieve the Gospel, and Socrates, who likened himself to a gnat on the back of Athens, was instead used by the Lord to prime the Greco-Roman psyche to receive Christ Jesus. The gnat and his pupils were utilized by God to form the foundations for all of Western society, as the pillars of the West are built upon a Christian worldview and ethical system, and a Greek philosophical and academic tradition. In any case, the Lord promises in both the Old and New Testaments (Proverbs in the Old; James in the New) that those who seek Him for Wisdom as for hidden treasures will discern the Fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God--which is the beginning of Wisdom. While a pre-Christian pagan, astranged from the Wisdom of God which was preserved in the Jewish people, Socrates sought after Wisdom, and was permitted, I believe, to find as much as any pagan could probably hope to--though Nebuchadnezzar seems to have ultimately exceeded him.

[Anonymous No.23052078]

>>23051283
>No, he wasn't. And neither ever has any man been.
What do you mean by that? That Buddhism is a "false religion?"
>much Christianity GUD
>Muh Buddhism BAD
Is that it, anon? This is where Wisdom brought you?

[Anonymous No.23052121]

>>23051283
>God had already revealed Himself considerably in the Tanakh.

[Anonymous No.23052140]

>>23052121
>egyptian, sumerian, assyrian, babylonian and greek knowledge all in a crucible of struggle in the harsh wastes
Yes

[Anonymous No.23052144]

>>23050759
Talk to your dad lately?

[Anonymous No.23052162]

>>23049674
Augustine said that Socrates actually had significant contact with the Jews and read sacred Scripture and that's where he got his ideas about God. is that true? i dunno but i choose to believe it.

[Anonymous No.23052170]

He had a platonic relationship with your mother

[Anonymous No.23053290]

Bump

[Anonymous No.23053310]

>>23051283
homosexual

[Anonymous No.23053337]

>>23052162
I think it's more likely that Jesus came into contact with Greek Diaspora and Buddhists during his wanderings and absorbed some of their beliefs

[Anonymous No.23053374]

>>23053310
>anon gives a long, earnest post
>reply with a shitpost
Please go shit up some other board

[Anonymous No.23053393]

>>23052140
This is an interesting way of framing it. However a big problem with this view is that the jews were totally intellectually impoverished. Their sacred texts show no interest in philosophical thought or in understanding immaterial reality.

[Anonymous No.23053595]

>>23052078
That was more the starting point for me, you see; I was a Buddhist mystic for several years before I became a Christian.

>>23052121
Of course. How could it have been any different? And, honestly, I think anyone reading Scripture with an unbiased critical eye will notice. I've mentioned it once before on this board, but I was shocked the first time I read the Iliad, which I had looked forward to, that the Greek notion of Wisdom, personified by Athena and whom I had always built up in my mind (no doubt thanks to poets like Tennyson in his Tiresias), was largely just a young, manipulative woman! She busies herself with getting involved in plots against her father on behalf of her mother, shapeshifts to deceive this man or that, etc.,. It was an astonishing disappointment to see Victorious Wisdom depicted as merely a young meddling woman with superpowers, for the Biblical Hebraic depiction of Wisdom is a true personification of something beyond the Human sphere. It depicts exactly what it says Wisdom is--something more desirable than gold, jewels, or anything else--a high and lofty thing prized even by the unfathomable Creator before creation was begun. Imagine being influenced by such beautiful ideas as that and then seeing the base, sensual, and all too human depictions of "gods" in the Greek tradition. It was a real let down. Now with that said, I enjoy the Greek tradition and several others. What's more, I have been shocked in the reverse manner. For instance, in Aeschylus' Agamemnon, the moment which seals Agamemnon's doom is a Luciferian moment--a moment in which he is tempted to set himself as an equal of God. It is when returning home, they roll out the red and golden tapestries for his feet to honor him, and wisely he says,

>"Seek not to make me soft in woman’s way;
Cry not thy praise to me wide-mouthed, nor fling
Thy body down, as to some barbarous king.
Nor yet with broidered hangings strew my path,
To awake the unseen ire. ’Tis God that hath
Such worship; and for mortal man to press
Rude feet upon this broidered loveliness …
I vow there is danger in it. Let my road
Be honoured, surely; but as man, not god."

As an aside, you'll notice our Freemasonic Hollywood types have taken this as their fundamental honor and honor themselves more besides--all for memorizing some lines no less. Anyway, there are other moments of wise metaphor and insight in both Homer and Hesiod, so don't think because I am a Christian I cannot appreciate anything to be found therein, yet God has revealed Himself to and through the Jews, and now, interestingly, after having brought we gentiles into the fold, our time will close, and He will reveal Himself to Israel once more--I wonder whether we will be the means by which this is done, but Scripture makes it plain that it will be, at least in part, supernatural.

[Anonymous No.23053638]

>>23053310
No, actually. Despite of Papal endorsement, that sort of thing is forbidden. I actually have a funny story from my early days as a Christian regarding crossdressing and Scripture.

I had been a big fan of what was called Visual Kei Japanese rock bands--even going so far as to travel numerous times and see them play and meet them, but once I was a Christian I felt that the Spirit of the Lord was convicting me to get rid of my vast collection--which even included a fan thrown to me by a then deceased lead singer of a band, and a signed albums from a favorite band I'd met and so on. At the time, I was so desensitized to notions of the Satanic, I didn't really realize the obvious and pervasive blasphemy running throughout the genre--I had lived too long not believing in a literal God or Satan. Yet feeling the conviction of the Lord, but not wanting to get rid of my collection, I went to pray about it and hoped to get out of it somehow. I took my Bible upon my lap as I knelt and prayed to the Lord that if He wanted me to get rid of my collection He would confirm it to me through His Word. I flipped open the Bible at random, and the first verse my eyes laid on was one in the Torah which I did not even know, being a new Christian, existed: "A man in a woman's clothing is an abomination." Ha! As if it could be any more plain than that! In Visual Kei rock bands, crossdressing is fairly common, whether the crossdresser is straight or gay, you see.

[Anonymous No.23053642]

>>23052078
That was more the starting point for me, you see; I was a Buddhist mystic for several years before I became a Christian.

>>23052121
Of course. How could it have been any different? And, honestly, I think anyone reading Scripture with an unbiased critical eye will notice. I've mentioned it once before on this board, but I was shocked the first time I read the Iliad, which I had looked forward to, that the Greek notion of Wisdom, personified by Athena and whom I had always built up in my mind (no doubt thanks to poets like Tennyson in his Tiresias), was largely just a young, manipulative woman! She busies herself with getting involved in plots against her father on behalf of her mother, shapeshifts to deceive this man or that, etc.,. It was an astonishing disappointment to see Victorious Wisdom depicted as merely a young meddling woman with superpowers, for the Biblical Hebraic depiction of Wisdom is a true personification of something beyond the Human sphere. It depicts exactly what it says Wisdom is--something more desirable than gold, jewels, or anything else--a high and lofty thing prized even by the unfathomable Creator before creation was begun. Imagine being influenced by such beautiful ideas as that and then seeing the base, sensual, and all too human depictions of "gods" in the Greek tradition. It was a real let down. Now with that said, I enjoy the Greek tradition and several others. What's more, I have been shocked in the reverse manner. For instance, in Aeschylus' Agamemnon, the moment which seals Agamemnon's doom is a Luciferian moment--a moment in which he is tempted to set himself as an equal of God. It is when returning home, they roll out the red and golden tapestries for his feet to honor him, and wisely he says,

>"Seek not to make me soft in woman’s way;
>Cry not thy praise to me wide-mouthed, nor fling
>Thy body down, as to some barbarous king.
>Nor yet with broidered hangings strew my path,
>To awake the unseen ire. ’Tis God that hath
>Such worship; and for mortal man to press
>Rude feet upon this broidered loveliness …
>I vow there is danger in it. Let my road
>Be honoured, surely; but as man, not god."

As an aside, you'll notice our Freemasonic Hollywood types have taken this as their fundamental honor and honor themselves more besides--all for memorizing some lines no less. Anyway, there are other moments of wise metaphor and insight in both Homer and Hesiod, so don't think because I am a Christian I cannot appreciate anything to be found therein, yet God has revealed Himself to and through the Jews, and now, interestingly, after having brought we gentiles into the fold, our time will close, and He will reveal Himself to Israel once more--I wonder whether we will be the means by which this is done, but Scripture makes it plain that it will be, at least in part, supernatural.

[Anonymous No.23053647]

>>23053337
Jesus really didn't wander that far

[Anonymous No.23053658]

>>23053642
>Hesiod and Homer
We're talking about Plato. Also this seems disingenuous; the vast majority (and perhaps all) of the old testament texts were written after the 5th century BC. So why do you bring up 8th century Greek poems rather than compare them with contemporary Greek works?

[Anonymous No.23053672]

>>23049674
>Was Jesus Christ a platonist?

Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true? I believe that here we can see the profound harmony between what is Greek in the best sense of the word and the biblical understanding of faith in God. Modifying the first verse of the Book of Genesis, the first verse of the whole Bible, John began the prologue of his Gospel with the words: "In the beginning was the λόγος". This is the very word used by the [Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus]: God acts, σὺν λόγω, with logos. Logos means both reason and word - a reason which is creative and capable of self-communication, precisely as reason.
John thus spoke the final word on the biblical concept of God, and in this word all the often toilsome and tortuous threads of biblical faith find their culmination and synthesis. In the beginning was the logos, and the logos is God, says the Evangelist.
The encounter between the Biblical message and Greek thought did not happen by chance. The vision of Saint Paul, who saw the roads to Asia barred and in a dream saw a Macedonian man plead with him: "Come over to Macedonia and help us!" (cf. Acts 16:6-10) - this vision can be interpreted as a "distillation" of the intrinsic necessity of a rapprochement between Biblical faith and Greek inquiry.

In point of fact, this rapprochement had been going on for some time. The mysterious name of God, revealed from the burning bush, a name which separates this God from all other divinities with their many names and simply asserts being, "I am", already presents a challenge to the notion of myth, to which Socrates' attempt to vanquish and transcend myth stands in close analogy... This new understanding of God is accompanied by a kind of enlightenment, which finds stark expression in the mockery of gods who are merely the work of human hands (cf. Ps 115).
Today we know that the Greek translation of the Old Testament produced at Alexandria - the Septuagint - is more than a simple (and in that sense really less than satisfactory) translation of the Hebrew text: it is an independent textual witness and a distinct and important step in the history of revelation, one which brought about this encounter in a way that was decisive for the birth and spread of Christianity. A profound encounter of faith and reason is taking place here, an encounter between genuine enlightenment and religion. From the very heart of Christian faith and, at the same time, the heart of Greek thought now joined to faith, Manuel II was able to say: Not to act "with logos" is contrary to God's nature.
-Pope Benedict, Regensburg Lecture

[Anonymous No.23053679]

>>23053337
This is a common modern fiction. It has no basis in Christ's story, save to place all hopes at his childhood in Egypt, and contradicts that which Christ taught and lived--which was that he was a pious Jew and the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy, not some guru seeking pagan refinements he leaned among the sitters. In fact, King David, of whom Christ is the inheritor of his lineage and rulership, mocks the ascetic meditators,

>Psalm 135:15-18 NASB
>The idols of the nations are but silver and gold, The work of man’s hands.
>They have mouths, but they do not speak; They have eyes, but they do not see;
>They have ears, but they do not hear, Nor is there any breath at all in their mouths.
>Those who make them will be like them, Yes, everyone who trusts in them.

I quite literally burst out laughing when I first read that verse, as it was a very personal roast. I had spent a great many hours in seated meditation chanting this mantra or that with some or other buddha in my minds eye, or else nothing at all. So, you see, it doesn't make sense to paint Christ as the proselytizer for the Asiatic methodology. He, a fervent student and teacher of the Torah of God, would have had no interest in the pagan ways--being a good Jew.

[Anonymous No.23053706]

>>23053658
My good man, you're grasping at straws. Plato is related to Hesiod and Homer, and isn't it obvious I brought up the other Greeks--Aeschylus as well, merely conversationally to further illustrate my own point? This isn't a formal presentation at a seminar of academics you know. It was just an anecdote. Your information on the Old Testament is very inaccurate. The Torah well predates the Greeks, as does the books of Joshua, Judges, Job, and probably others. Even the Davidic and Solomonic texts are written either slightly before or roundabout the same time. The entirety of the Tanakh was finished at minimum 300 years before Christ. As for Plato, I've already made my comments on him. Is there some point you're trying to make about Plato, or are you just grasping at straws in hopes to get out of having to have a genuine discussion? Because, right now, you look simply evasive. I made some interesting comments and all you can say is, "I think your timeline is wrong?" Very feeble.

[Anonymous No.23053714]

>>23053672
Very excellent post.

[Anonymous No.23053719]

>>23053706
I'm not trying to glib, and I do appreciate your thoughtful responses. But when we're talking about the Greek understanding of immaterial reality, we aren't talking about Homer or Hesiod. It's in Platonism that we find the most accurate construction of reality. Not in subsequent jewish texts!
>the Torah well predates the Greeks
Even if this is true (I have doubts), there is no wisdom in the Torah. It can't possibly compare to the divine beauty of the Greek literary and philosophical tradition.
>Joshua, Judges, Job
Same as above.
It is with the Greeks that we find the fullest expression of God's nature, not with the jews.

[Anonymous No.23053728]

>>23053672
This is a very excellent post, and it amuses me that here Psalm 115 is cited, when I was just writing of Psalm 135 for similar reasons without knowing you were creating your own post here, but the way this ends, being a Papal lecture, I am still concerned for the growing trend within the Catholic tradition of unification of faiths. An excellent post, but I worry for my Catholic brothers in Christ, that they may not be led astray into "higher truths" when there is in fact no higher truth than the I AM of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who has revealed Himself to us in Jesus.

[Anonymous No.23053757]

>>23049674
No.

/thread

[Anonymous No.23053777]

>>23053757
/thread

[Anonymous No.23053792]

>>23053719
You have no reason to doubt the timeline. Google will easily confirm it, as for the rest, I simply disagree. The primary difference between Plato and The Bible in in completeness. The revelation of God and Truth in Scripture is complete--it is merely also veiled, whereas the Greek philosophical tradition which we find in Plato attempts to unveil truth by means of logical enquiry. It is a noble effort, but cannot attain what it attempts, and the existence of the many philosophers since confirms this fact. Meanwhile, the Bible remains as is, studied as is, for it needs no additions. The truth lies within. Ironically, the Jews--even to this day, are excelling in revelation within your Greek tradition, for it is the Greek tradition which birthed modern science, and time and again we find, as the Lord promised, that it is in Abraham's seed we are blessed with such prominent names as Einstein, Feynman, Pauli, Bohr, and now Witten. This will continue to occur, as God will continue to show Man He is true to His Word. But I do not despise your perspective. I respect your love of Plato and your thoughtfulness, yet I think your journey will find its end in God through Christ, the Jew, if you continue to its end.

[Anonymous No.23053842]

Actually he was Jesus not Plato, Two different guys but I can see how you can get them mixed up

[Anonymous No.23054272]

>>23053777
checked, thanks anon for confirming

[big pp No.23054334]

>>23051283
1 Corinthians 1:18-19

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. In fact, it is written:

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nothing."

[Anonymous No.23054340]

Read laruelle future Christ, hylic

[Anonymous No.23054865]

>>23051283
>NebuCHADnezzar

[Anonymous No.23055765]

>>23049674
He was more like Socrates.

[Anonymous No.23056395]

>>23049674
Jesus Christ is God, Amen

[Anonymous No.23056590]

>>23049674
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus#Cynic_philosopher

[Anonymous No.23057771]

>>23053642
Homer was 8th century, His views on life and death, his cosmology and theology represents a late bronze age view. Fast forward half a century to Plato who builds on classical Greek philosophy with infusions of knowledge from the Persian Magi priests in the East who in turn gained their knowlede from the Vedic far East. His ideas then become so popular and well spread throughout the entire Greek empire centuries after Plato that they are infused into the local religious consciousness wherever they go.

The entire OT book of Moses were composed after Plato, around 270BC. This is why you see Wisdom personified in an entirely "good" sense more reminiscent of later Greek philosophical attitudes and views on the Logos etc. Read Plato's Timaeus and I guarantee, if you know Genesis well, almost every page will jump out at you as having been inspired by Plato.

When Paul talks of Christ crucified and buried then risen again on the third day "according to the scriptures", is it possible that the scriptures he is talking about are what modern Christians today would disparagingly call "Pagan"? There is no single reference in the OT to a crucified and risen saviour, but there is for instance a whole mythos surrounding cosmic saviours in the Greco Roman and Persian as well as Egyptian world to which this could apply.

The worst thing to ever happen to Christianity was the council of Nicea stapling the Jewish Torah to the front of the Christian canon and thereby associating the two and deceiving many billions in the process.

t. fellow believer in the Lord Jesus Christ

[Anonymous No.23057931]

>>23057771
Moses lived 2000BC. The Torah is far older than the Greek tradition. Modern scholastics assert we can only verify a completed Mosaic text post-Homer and Plato, but this is a strictly modern, academic, and, therefore, corrupted view. If you trust modern scholastics on Scripture (or much else), you're doomed to be led into false belief.
>Genesis inspired by Plato's Timaeus
Ha! Are you sure you're a believer? You sound like a follower of the world-system, rather than a man of faith. You've adopted the retrohistories of the narrative-changers. I am sorry, but in all of your views, you neither seem like a Christian, nor a student of Scripture. You sound no different than an academied atheist.

[Anonymous No.23057957]

>>23057931
>Moses
Not real

[Anonymous No.23058187]

>>23057931
There is no greater world system than that which is promoted and perpetuated by religion. In fact, the word itself comes from a Latin root word meaning to "bind up". Christ came to free us from, among many things, religious dogmatism and the false assurance of truth and knowledge that comes with it.

In regards to the so called Law of Moses, even this can be attibuted to Plato such as the "Republic" and of course "Laws". After the Jewish elite returned from Babylonian captivity they essentailly had to start again with building back their society and a sense of cohesion. One of the best ways to do this is by promoting a mythical origin to the Jewish people to solidify their sense of being a chosen race. Plato's republic asserts that law and order is essential for any modern civilized poeple and the best way to make people follow said laws is to convince them that they were originally given from a god. Hence why Cretan Zeus supposedly taught King Minos the laws of the land in a cave on a hill (very similar to the story of Moses).

We have a loving Father and great benefactor who is all love and all light brother. Rejoice in your freedom to grow in wisdom and knowledge of God without the restriction's of religious dogma and you will flower into the person you were born to be. At least that is my hope for all of us sojourning here. Peace.

[Anonymous No.23058289]

>>23049724
If you're a real National Socialist, you reject Christianity and embrace Germanic Neo-Peganism. Christianity spreading through Europe was an invasion of a Jewish god and an erasure of their culture. Or at least, that's what Himmler and the Black Metal guys believe.

[Anonymous No.23058309]

>>23058187
Oh, please. You do not believe in Christ. You're no different than a Freemason, and it is from Freemasonic institutions that the doctrines in which you trust come from. Disgusting.

>>23057957
>>/x/

[Anonymous No.23058316]

>>23058289
National Socialism is for evil fools, but at least you're 100% correct, finally, that Nazism and Christ have nothing to do with one another.

[Anonymous No.23058328]

>>23058316
>National Socialism is for evil fools
I didn't say I agreed with it, I'm just saying you can't be Christian and a National Socialist. However, you can be Christian and Fascist. See Mussolini.