/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22937536]

>be raised Catholic in a Catholic country surrounded by fellow Catholics
>actually pick up the Bible once and start reading it
>realize that the Prots were right about everything
Did this happen to anyone else?

[Anonymous No.22937550]

>>22937536
protestant bait thread; you fool not a single soul, Presbyterian

[Anonymous No.22937556]

>>22937536
fake news, protestantism doesn't follow logically from Scripture. Anytime I see protestants argue something, quotes are clearly misused

[Anonymous No.22937558]

>>22937536
>be raised Orthodox in an Orthodox country surrounded by fellow Orthodox
>actually pick up the Bible once and start reading it
>realize that the Church Fathers were right about everything
>suddenly become utterly confounded as to how retarded and nonsensical Calvinist exegesis of Scripture is

[Anonymous No.22937565]

>>22937556
I assume OPs point is that catholics don’t follow the bible which is what I imagine the protestant reformation having been all about but I am not religious myself

[Anonymous No.22937576]

Such obvious bait. The Prots were obviously wrong about everything except the invalidity of the office of the Pope. Not a single one of any of the Protestant claims about theology are valid and the question of from where Protestants derive their canonical books is totally devastating beyond repair.

[Anonymous No.22937580]

>>22937565
yeah, but OP is wrong about it

[Anonymous No.22937585]

>>22937536
>be raised Catholic in a Catholic country surrounded by fellow Catholics
>actually pick up the Bible once and start reading it
>also read Greek and Roman philosophers
>realize that Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants are all right and wrong about different things and there is no one tradition I completely agree with

[Anonymous No.22937610]

>>22937536
> be raised Catholic in Catholic country surrounded by fellow Catholics
> actually pick up the Bible, catechism, philosophy, writings of mystics, church fathers, history, stories of saints
> realize that Catholics are right about everything, God is real and good, Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, Catholic Church is His mystical body and living in His grace grants peace that the world cannot give.
In particular, catechism+St. Thomas' explanations, The Epistle to Diognetus, Diary of St. Faustina, writings of Carmelite saints are great reads. Merton, too.

[Anonymous No.22937611]

>>22937536
Yes, born and raised in Catholic country raised by Catholics, except when I was 16 I stopped going to church and told everyone I don't believe in any of it, don't bother me with religious nonsense anymore.

[Anonymous No.22937624]

>>22937611
Congratulations on turning 17! Worry not, you will find things out soon enogh

[Anonymous No.22937638]

>>22937556
Don't they omit 7 books?

[Anonymous No.22937646]

>Be atheist in an atheist country
>pick up the Bible and start reading it after I found one in my grandma's bookcase
>become Gnostic

[Anonymous No.22937657]

>>22937624
Thanks, but I am thirty already

[Anonymous No.22937660]

>be born in Catholic country
>pick up a bible
>throw it into the trash.

[Anonymous No.22937677]

>>22937536
No church on earth is perfect. The Catholic Church does some things well while some Protestant denominations do other things well. All we have is the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Pray daily and deeply.

The biggest difference for me is the Catholic Church claims to have authority, even in their self-admitted flaws. This is why I attend a relatively traditional Protestant church.

[Anonymous No.22937683]

>>22937536
>be raised ? in a ? country surrounded by fellow ?
>actually pick up the ? once and start reading it
>realize that the !? were right about everything

[Anonymous No.22937694]

>>22937576
I'd also add that praying 5 times to Mary before you can pray once to God is not what Jesus teaches you about praying.

[Anonymous No.22937698]

>>22937576
>Wrong about everything except the literal biggest difference between Catholics and Prots.

What did he mean by this

[Anonymous No.22937700]

>>22937565
Catholics created the Bible

[El gordo terremoto No.22937702]

Shut up evangeloco.

[Anonymous No.22937740]

>>22937694
and also not what catholics do

[Anonymous No.22937767]

>>22937536
Ive never met a single person who converted from Catholic/Orthodox to Protestantism

[Anonymous No.22937893]

>>22937698
Half the problem is you thinking that is the biggest difference when in reality the solas and the implications for theology and in particular Christology are the biggest differences. It’s not merely that they accept or don’t accept this office of authority. It’s that they have a totally different conception of what the revelation is, what it means, and the significance of the person of Christ, who is a far more important person than the Pope could ever be. That’s what I meant by that.

[Anonymous No.22937899]

>>22937536
>>22937767
Weak Catholics become Protestants.
Strong Protestants become Catholic.

[Anonymous No.22937921]

>>22937657
Time is ticking... :)

[Anonymous No.22937926]

>>22937899
I still have never known any of my family or friends who left the church and became Protestant even if they were lax. If they do fall away they just become irreligious.

[Anonymous No.22937946]

>>22937610
>St. Thomas' explanations
>uh god exists because plato said the shoes i'm wearing have an ideal blueprint in the netherworld

[Anonymous No.22937952]

>>22937946
refute it if you can

[Anonymous No.22937963]

>>22937952
What's to refute? Aquinas is working off a baseless Plato brainfart.

[Anonymous No.22937972]

>>22937963
>Why engage with an uncomfortable idea when I can just dismiss it out of hand

[Anonymous No.22937974]

>>22937946
>>22937963
You haven't read Plato or Aquinas you embarrassing nigger lmao

[Anonymous No.22937975]

>>22937972
ironic post

[Anonymous No.22937976]

>>22937700
roman catholics are a heretical sect of pope worshippers that separated themselves from the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church (today's Eastern Orthodox Church and creators of the Bible Canon) in 1054.

[Anonymous No.22937977]

>>22937974
not an argument, point out your specific issue in a non nebulous manner

[Anonymous No.22937983]

>>22937977
No one is arguing with you as you never made a point. We can all tell you haven’t read either of the authors you mentioned.

[Anonymous No.22937990]

>>22937983
I accept your concession lmao. Usually you guys try to dance around the problem more before just giving up.

[Anonymous No.22938000]

>>22937990
You said it was a stupid brainfart by Plato; well, there you go, we are waiting for an explanation. The one dancing around the edges is you

[Anonymous No.22938010]

>>22937990
Lol usually you leftards at least make some kind of point before you declare victory

[Anonymous No.22938017]

>>22938000
Not how it works. Plato made the claim, which is baseless. I didn't make the claim.
There is no evidence for the world of forms.

[Anonymous No.22938029]

>>22937977
Aquinas' five ways were inspired by the Dionysian corpus, not the idea of the Platonic Forms, you fucking mongoloid. By the time of the Middle Platonists, it was accepted that the Forms were the Divine Thoughts that God contemplates, so if anything it was God that was utilized to establish the existence of a paradigmatic cause in whose image the world was molded. The argument for God preceded the argument for Forms, though in Middle Platonism onwards, the argument in favour of Forms was an argument from design. Anyway, it's still clear you're a philosophical illiterate and dilettante.

[Anonymous No.22938033]

>>22938017
Its not baseless and there is a long line of argumentation about the forms in Plato’s own work and the neoplatonists. Thank you for proving me correct that you haven’t read anything about these topics.

[Anonymous No.22938039]

>>22938029
>Anyway, it's still clear you're a philosophical illiterate and dilettante.
How so?
Aquinas is not doing philosophy, he's attempting to back up something he already believed in without proof, with proof.
All your handwringing above those lines ignores that.

>>22938033
>Its not baseless
Argument?

[Anonymous No.22938049]

>>22938039
This nigga really looked at the entirety of Plato's argument, said "nah this not it", and proceeded to demand that we reiterate everything, instead of supplying his own counter arguments

[Anonymous No.22938056]

>>22938049
Why do I need a counter argument for a baseless claim?
If I say that the invisible people living in the walls are real, do you need a counterargument?

[Anonymous No.22938077]

>>22937556
Christianity doesn't follow logically from the scriptures

[Anonymous No.22938080]

>>22938056
Platonic tradition provides the basis and explanations. Yet, here art thou, oh great philosopher, who refutest most daringly Plato, by producing "nay, thy evidence is but a ruse".

[Anonymous No.22938083]

>>22938080
>thy evidence

[Anonymous No.22938097]

>>22938039
>Aquinas is not doing philosophy, he's attempting to back up something he already believed in without proof, with proof.
You have to be quite the limp wristed little midwit queer to think Bertrand Russell is anyone worth quoting or giving a shit about lmao. Have you ever checked for a pair of balls beneath your penis?

>>22938056
Yes, do go on lecturing us about baseless claims, Mr My Grandpa Was A Monkey.

[Anonymous No.22938103]

>>22938097
>being this mad
Concession accepted.

>This everyone understands to be God!111!!
Enlightening stuff.

[Anonymous No.22938107]

>>22938103
You're the one who is mad God says you can't have sex with troons. Don't worry, I'm sure Dilatehunty will let you fuck his boyfriend.

[Anonymous No.22938171]

>>22938083
Just have the humility to admit you haven't read Plato, you arrogant buffoon

[Anonymous No.22938173]

>>22938171
FOR THIS WORLD TO STOP HATING

[Anonymous No.22938193]

>>22938173
Disprove the recollection argument

[Anonymous No.22938206]

>>22938193
Prove the world of forms exists first. We take orders in the order they are received here. No dodging.

[Anonymous No.22938211]

>>22938206
God exists. God thinks. Ergo, the paradigm of what He creates must be His Thoughts.

Now prove you've read Plato.

[Anonymous No.22938226]

>>22937536
I thought the catholic church itself always placed more emphasis on the living institution of the church as the primary source of authority rather than the bible itself.

t. Atheist.

[Anonymous No.22938289]

>>22938211
>God exists. God thinks. Ergo
think you skipped a step here

[Anonymous No.22938300]

>>22938289
Disprove the recollection argument.

[Anonymous No.22938304]

>>22938300
>>22938206

[Anonymous No.22938347]

>>22938304
Already did.
Now: >>22938300

[Anonymous No.22938367]

>>22938347
>Already did.
>>22938289

[Anonymous No.22938380]

>>22938367
You are self-evidently too retarded to engage in any argument about the existence of God, yet alone Plato's epistemological argument in favour of the Forms. Stick to Dora the Explorer videos.

[Anonymous No.22938404]

>>22938380
I accept your concession.

[Anonymous No.22938433]

>>22937536
Based

[Anonymous No.22938457]

>I accept your confession

[Anonymous No.22938494]

>>22937550
>>22937556
Sneed

[Anonymous No.22938509]

I don't and will never understand how Catholics can worship the Virgin Mary,
>inb4 they don't worship her
Their churches are full of idols of her, people pray to her, sounds like idolatry to me.

[Anonymous No.22938540]

>>22937610
I'm glad you enjoyed those but it is unbiblcal to say those have anything to do with Christianity. One is saved by belief, not understanding. Man cannot believe in God because man is utterly depraved and his heart only lusts for evil. Only the miracle of the Spirit can make man believe and who shall be given this has been decided from before the foundation of the world. To say otherwise would be to deny God's absolute omniscience.

Salvation is for no reason. It has nothing to do with you, for to say that salvation has to do with man would be to say that man dictates what God does. This would be to say God is not omnipotent, but rather contingent on man. Salvation is based solely on God's eternal will, from the begining of time, through election.

As we can see from our world, most are not elect. Man seeks pleasure and reward and so people pack into pagan temples that pretend to worship the true God. But this is all falsity. Only if they are elect is it a true church. This is Biblical.

"Jacob I have loved, but Essau I hated." All men are despised, yet some have their taint covered by the blood of the Lamb. This is the love, not something owed or determined by the beloved.

[Anonymous No.22938545]

>>22938509
Praying for intercession isn't worship. Veneration is not worship.

[Anonymous No.22938550]

>>22938509
Romans 1:18-23

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

As St Paul says, idolatry is misapprehending the nature of God: it is mistaking His invisible, eternal nature that ought to be evident to all based on natural revelation. Venerating Mary, who is called Mother of the Lord in Scripture (Luke 1:43), does not contradict that. Mary is a type of Eve who helps Christ recapitulate Adam, for while Eve facilitated Adam's sin of disobedience that led to the fall of mankind, Mary facilitates Jesus Christ's obedience that redeems mankind.

But I am Orthodox, and I dislike much of Catholic Mariology as well.

[Anonymous No.22938638]

>>22938540
Not reading allat but Calvinists should be forbidden to post here

[Anonymous No.22938665]

>>22938509
It all flows from the fact that we believe that the saints in Heaven can pray for us in front of God and that God will listen to their prayers and give our requests extra emphasis.

The idea that we should pray for the dead, and theat the "dead" are really alive in the next life, is attested in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Mary has particular pride of place because God both chose her specifically for His plan of salvation, and yet also He needed her willing consent, which she gave. The Immaculate Conception is the idea that she was pre-saved and conceived without Original Sin, so she could be a pure vessel for Jesus. But it all still depended on her consent, hence why it's so important that she says, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to your word."

This all combined makes her a Big Deal, and her intercession on our behalf carries especial weight.

God also frequently uses her specifically to do His will in the world, as evidenced by the prayers she answers, even miraculously, as well as her apparitions.

[Anonymous No.22938672]

>>22938545
>Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
>>22938550
I don't see how there's anywhere near enough in the New Testament to imply that Mary has the power to be an intercessor to Jesus. I'm curious as to where Mariology started and why but in my opinion it doesn't align with the Bible.

[Anonymous No.22938721]

>>22938540
poor logic, false claims. You wish protestant beliefs had the truth and beauty of true christian teachings

[Anonymous No.22938733]

>>22938672
New Testament+typological reading of Old Testament. If you are curious, why don't you read catholic apolegetics on the matter? Christians started venerating Mary and asking for intercession very early. Read some history.

[Anonymous No.22938749]

>>22938665
>It all flows from the fact that we believe that the saints
That's another argument, why do you believe that and what in the Bible implies that's the case?
>The idea that we should pray for the dead
Can't argue with that
>God both chose her
I can see how she would need to be special and 'pure' to be chosen, I'm not so sure if presented with an angel you would feel like you had much choice in the matter but I suppose she did agree. I believe this does make her special but she was not the daughter of God, merely the mortal mother of the son, she should be revered to an extent but not used as an in-between, why not pray to him directly?
>God also frequently uses her specifically to do His will in the world
This opens up yet another argument, you could pray to anything and claim your prayers are answered, apparitions are clearly a load of shit and on the same level as bigfoot and ufos, you do yourself a disservice even mentioning them.
>>22938733
I'll look into it, but from the NT I struggle to see Mary on the level Catholics do.

[Anonymous No.22938759]

>>22937536
God bless you, anon. I'll see you in Heaven. Your faith and heart for Christ is sincere.

[Anonymous No.22938761]

>>22938545
>>22938550
>>22938665
>Luke 11: 1-5
One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”

2 He said to them, “When you pray, say:

“‘Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3 Give us each day our daily bread.
4 Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation."

>>22938672
It started in the eleventh century with the cult of the Virgin Mary and was emphasized by Francis of Assisi. Catholics don't know this though and think a woman with only a handful of mentions in the Bible should be the FIRST person you mention in your prayer to the Almighty.

[Anonymous No.22938790]

>>22938761
3rd century (and earlier, most likely).
Not the first person that is mentioned in prayers, not sure where you got that idea.
And if you think about, say, the Hail Mary prayer, name of Jesus is at the center of it, with two verses from NT before it, followed by a call for intercession.

[Anonymous No.22938861]

>>22937536
>>actually pick up the Bible once and start reading it
At that point you realise Protestantism is self contradictory, because the biblical canon was decided by the Church's tradition. Thus, sola scriptura (the cornerstone of Protestantism) is a logical impossibility.

[Anonymous No.22938928]

>>22937767
My grandpa did and his mother refused to attend his wedding for that reason.

[Anonymous No.22938938]

Latino thread. I don't need to follow the Pope just my local bishop.

[Anonymous No.22939160]

My analysis of Martin Luther concluded that he was an autistic that was focused on the wrong things for someone living the monastic lifestyle

[Anonymous No.22939206]

>>22938749
>apparitions are clearly a load of shit and on the same level as bigfoot and ufos, you do yourself a disservice even mentioning them.

It's all real, Anon. This is a religion, not some philosophy-reading social club. What kind of religion would it be if there weren't miraculous elements involved? Really, the entire central conceit of Christianity centers around an impossible event: a man rising from the dead. If you're not going to take these sorts of things seriously you might as well not even bother with religion in general.

[Anonymous No.22939217]

>>22938540
>Jacob I have loved, but Esau I hated

Both in Micah and when Paul quotes it in Romans this is about peoples, not individuals. Esau is blessed and becomes wealthy and powerful. His descendent Job is one of the rare people called righteous in the Bible. Romans 9 is talking about how the people Israel were chosen and why it is not somehow "unjust" for God to allow the gentiles to be grafted onto the vine of salvation, as that was God's plan from the beginning.

Calvinist readings rely on totally ignoring the context.

It's like how they role our "no one searches for God, not one," from Psalm 14 and Romans or "their hearts were always after evil," from the Ark story to support their "total depravity," doctrine. In both places, the versus mention the righteous immediately following that, in the very next lines, but this is just ignored.

Or how it says Christ came for all/the world in John, Timothy, II Peter, etc. I John 2 actually says Christ was a propitiation for "the entire/whole world," but this gets read as "the entire partial selection of the elect."

It's remarkable to see bad, simplistic logic manage to bowl over everything Scripture appears to say explicitly, and yet for Calvinists to use the word "Biblical" again and again to describe their false teachings and heresies.

Reformed essentially say that God is evil, but that evil is actually good because God does it, and fail to see how this is blasphemy.

[Anonymous No.22939238]

>>22938749
> I struggle to see Mary on the level Catholics do.

Mary is the perfect response to God, man cooperating with God and bringing God's immanent, incarnated being into the world. It's completely miraculous and symbolizes the ideal of theosis.

Consider that this is not a "Catholic," thing. The Orthodox also venerate the Blessed Virgin, as do the Coptics and the Oriental Churches. It would be more appropriate to say that ignoring the example of Mary is a Protestant things. Just listen to some Orthodox hymns of the Theotokos, look how often the Virgin and Christ Child appear in icons, etc.

[Anonymous No.22939250]

>>22939238
And I should note, Mary in Christian art and literature goes way back. Saint Irenus talks about the importance of Mary and canticles focused on Mary are among the oldest liturgical writings that survive.

[Anonymous No.22939473]

>>22938540

[Anonymous No.22939509]

>>22938509
It's so funny that they worship a woman lmfao.

[Anonymous No.22941162]

>>22939206
I don't trust people, you never know if they actually saw that apparition or are just saying they did for attention. I also believe that the miracles of Jesus were either entirely fabricated or exaggerated by the authors but have no way to prove anything.

[Anonymous No.22941182]

>>22941162
Fabricated for what end, friend? The apostles knew they'd be persecuted to death, nevertheless they not once renounced Jesus in like 40 years and many died at the cross or were tortured, or both. Usually, the Romans would give them the choice of renouncing Christ and be set free, yet none of them picked it so.

[Anonymous No.22941755]

>>22937536
I’m a Lutheran (as all should be) but do consider that Catholics believe in an oral tradition that exists with the written word as divinely inspired so you would naturally feel Protestantism is correct if only the Bible is a source. The decision hinges on accepting the extra-biblical sources as valid or not.

[Anonymous No.22941799]

>>22941182
>The apostles knew they'd be persecuted to death
This argument has never been good. Plenty of people die for their beliefs.

[Anonymous No.22941806]

>>22941755
based

[Anonymous No.22941820]

Why can't we have a constructive mix of Protestantism and Catholicism? Protestants have their own magnificent traditions now, and it shouldn't be forced to cohere with what would only be a superficial exterior of Roman pomp. On the other hand, Catholics should retain every last scrap of their great religious culture, but there are many very silly tenets that only go back to the Catholic Church's lust for power and they should be less restrained its dogma and authority.

[Anonymous No.22941821]

>>22938509
Don’t all you guys worship some German pervert?

[Anonymous No.22941827]

>>22941820
>Protestants have their own magnificent traditions now

[Anonymous No.22941854]

>>22941755
No it doesn't. Catholics and the Orthodox have radically different interpretations of Scripture. The Catechism and other Catholic works cite the Bible like every line. Tradition is not creating the backbone of the theology, but fleshing things out.

Plus, they have different Canons because the Protestants stripped out a bunch of Scripture.

[Anonymous No.22941882]

>>22937536
>be raised Christian in a Christian country surrounded by fellow Christians
>actually pick up the Bible once and start reading it
>realize that it's a cheap rip-off off Plato, and that Nietzsche was right about everything.

[Anonymous No.22941903]

>>22941799
Aye, lay people. But what is the reason behind making up a cult for no material gain whatsoever, knowing that persecution is at hand, and keeping at it for several years? When you look at all the circumstances of the fact, you see that nothing of the sort happened before or since, in such awe and peculiarity. I herein but scratch the surface

[Anonymous No.22941916]

>>22941882
>Be raised in Neitszchean county(USA)
>Actually pick up beyond good and evil
>Realize its just a cheap rip-off of the Talmud

[Anonymous No.22941919]

>>22941903
post normally please
Anyway, as I said, it's a non argument otherwise suicide bombers are evidence for the truth of islam. They plan their attacks over long periods of time as well.

[Anonymous No.22941924]

>>22937536
sola scriptura led to troons

[Anonymous No.22941925]

>>22941903
>But what is the reason behind making up a cult for no material gain whatsoever
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modes_of_religiosity#Imagistic_mode
"The often dysphoric and highly emotional nature of these types of rituals activate the episodic memory system, resulting in detailed autobiographical memories. These dysphoric rituals can produce an extreme form of cohesion with the group, known as identity fusion.[19] DMR posits that fusion with other group members will also motivate the individual to act out extreme forms of altruism, especially when the group is threatened."

[Anonymous No.22941936]

>>22941919
It's not just their deaths, anon
>>22941925
> jeepers gang we've got wrecked by facts and logic
you cant possibly be serious

[Anonymous No.22941949]

>>22941936
Both of those responses are just terrible. I'm guy 1 and that isn't a response to my post at all.

[Anonymous No.22941954]

>>22937536
>be Catholic
>read bible
pick one

[Anonymous No.22941970]

>>22941936
>you cant possibly be serious
You've been answered: martyrs are by-products of ape group cohesion techniques. You are in a mechanical assemblage with your environment, and it is what is triggering all the inputs. Rationality is a myth.

[Anonymous No.22941985]

>>22941925
Sci-tards use more faith based arguments than religious people lol. Im sure all this psycho-babble is very real! Christians=owned by facts and logic.

[Anonymous No.22942006]

>>22941985
>Sci-tards use more faith based arguments than religious people lol.
Unlike your scripture, however, those can be empirically tested and, if need be, updated.

[Anonymous No.22942019]

>>22941916
>Neitszchean county(USA)
" “And why is it not with the rich?” asked Zarathustra temptingly, while he kept back the kine which sniffed familiarly at the peaceful one.
“Why dost thou tempt me?” answered the other. “Thou knowest it thyself better even than I. What was it drove me to the poorest, O Zarathustra? Was it not my disgust at the richest?
—At the culprits of riches, with cold eyes and rank thoughts, who pick up profit out of all kinds of rubbish— at this rabble that stinketh to heaven,
—At this gilded, falsified populace, whose fathers were pickpockets, or carrion-crows, or rag-pickers, with wives compliant, lewd and forgetful:—for they are all of them not far different from harlots—
Populace above, populace below! What are ‘poor’ and ‘rich’ at present! That distinction did I unlearn,—then did I flee away further and ever further, until I came to those kine.” "

[Anonymous No.22942020]

>>22942006
Sure they can. The magic lab coat men put numbers on the page and it becomes a fact. Just like when Santa puts the presents under my tree.

[Anonymous No.22942026]

>>22942020
>The magic lab coat men put numbers on the page and it becomes a fact.
Better to just pray and not ask questions, yeah. Jehovah knows best! Computers bad!

[Anonymous No.22942028]

>>22941936
>>22941949
I accept your concession.

[Anonymous No.22942031]

>>22942026
This but unironically

[Anonymous No.22942034]

>>22942028
It must be the same poindexter that keeps declaring victory in every religious thread lmao. Funny as hell

[Anonymous No.22942035]

>>22942031
you are on a computer

[Anonymous No.22942037]

>>22942034
?
I said that because you had been responding quickly and then igonred me after posting a non response. What else is my takeaway supposed to be?

[Anonymous No.22942055]

>>22941882
>heckin Platos bros
Out of all things you faggots say, this is the goofiest. It's almost as if you learned history and theology from tiktok and youtube.

[Anonymous No.22942058]

>>22942037
*ignored
which I predict this post will be too of course

[Anonymous No.22942062]

>>22942055
>this is the goofiest
wat?

[Anonymous No.22942083]

>>22942055
>Out of all things you faggots say, this is the goofiest.
Same sequence, same phrasings... Totally a coincidence, yeah!

[Anonymous No.22942094]

>>22938545
Yeah this is just a semantics cope. I grew up Catholic, studied theology at a Catholic university, and yeah maybe the 130 IQ theologians appreciate the difference between intercession, veneration and worship, but the regular practicing Catholic sure doesn't. I've talked to many professors who privately admit that they disagree with the Mary cult in the Catholic Church, precisely because they know how close it is to actual idolatry. The only separating line is basically some wordcel semantics game.

For example, how can you tell from a distance whether someone is merely venerating or actually worshipping Mary? What would Mary worship look like? Quite the same as the "veneration" that is going on. Calling it something distinct doesn't make it so.

[Anonymous No.22942099]

>>22942055
>>heckin Platos bros
Also a bit of Homer.

[Anonymous No.22942111]

>>22942058
You are right. Victory is yours

[Anonymous No.22942132]

>>22942062
Plato is from an Iron Age Hellenic culture, which is significantly younger than anything from Mesopotamia. Much of their worldview and religious ideas came via the Hittites first, whom themselves were influenced by earlier Mesopotamian society. Greece is not even Sumer's sloppy seconds. And this is the same society Abraham emerged from and broke from.
As for these passages from Genesis, they were a polemic against the Mesopotamian pagan world using their own language. But the main difference is where the pagan Garden of Eden was a pleasure zone meant for the gods and the men were just jannies to keep the garden in shape, the bible is an inversion and the garden is made for man instead. While their God had no need of such things. And where only kings were in the image of God in the ancient world, the bible says all men are in the image of God. And where the sun and moon and stars were given deity names before, the bible just calls the sun and moon and stars as lights in the sky. Just objects and creations.
Instead of appreciating the lesson you're being taught here to not enslave yourself to tyrants, you somehow want to give credit to an actual friend of tyrants like Plato.

[Anonymous No.22942143]

>>22942132
>Plato is from an Iron Age Hellenic culture, which is significantly younger than anything from Mesopotamia.
How fortunately for us, that Bible has actually little to do with actual Mesopotamia.
Must be a hell of coincidence, to have so much common with greeks, right?

[Anonymous No.22942146]

I still find this new wave of 4channoids/13 year olds LARPing as Christians (and in some cases even muslims) really strange. Do you willingly get circumsised as well?

[Anonymous No.22942168]

>>22942132
>you somehow want to give credit to an actual friend of tyrants like Plato.
Because it's literally Plato's "Laws" all over the damn book.

[Anonymous No.22942177]

>>22942143
I've explained the Word of God to you. The wise thing to do is rejoice and give thanks that he loves you enough to create you in his image. That he loved you enough to not make you a janny. Even you. Plato would never tell you this. His ideal society was founded on jannies.
But if you want to continue disfiguring yourself, have at it. Even then, it gives glory to God, as an example of who not to be.

[Anonymous No.22942249]

>>22942177
>I've explained the Word of God to you.
You've been explained that your Word of God is actually the Word of Plato.

>His ideal society was founded on jannies.
Sucks to be you, then.

[Anonymous No.22942338]

To the Catholics, my brethren in Christ:
>Mary is dead
>She doesn't exist anymore
>No really, she's plain gone
> No spirit, no ghost to pray to
>If Jesus wanted us to ask Mary's help in praying for us to Him (or His Father) you think he'd have said so. Instead we have "no one comes to the Father except through Me"

So tell me how you justify believing in ghosts. Also please identify the part of the bible that recommends Christians to commune with spirits.

[Anonymous No.22942342]

>>22937536
Read bible again.
Good riddance ( meaning get back to bussines)

[Anonymous No.22942365]

>>22942062
>>22942083
>>22942099
>>22942143
>>22942168
It's actually quite cute you think spamming this shit proves anything. You've barely read your own screencaps lmao.

[Anonymous No.22942381]

>>22942338
>>Mary is dead
Asherah lives, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah


>To the Catholics
To the Orthodox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(wisdom)#Christology
"In the theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church, Holy Wisdom is understood as the Divine Logos who became incarnate as Jesus;"
"There is a hagiographical tradition, dating to the late sixth century,[12] of a Saint Sophia and her three daughters, Saints Faith, Hope, and Charity."
"In Russian Orthodox mysticism, Sophia became increasingly indistinguishable from the person of the Theotokos (rather than Christ), to the point of the implication of the Theotokos as a "fourth person of the Trinity"."

[Anonymous No.22942385]

>>22942338
Consider Revelations, where the saints are shown offering up the prayers of the faithful to God.

[Anonymous No.22942395]

>>22942168
Parts of numbers have been found engraved on silver from before Homer's time. Don't you think there is a bit of a chronology problem here. If anything, the Greeks would have been influenced by the Jews, but there isn't good evidence for this either.

[Anonymous No.22942412]

>>22942395
It's funny how the faggot alleges that the Bible has nothing to do with the ancient Middle East when research comparing it to works from Sumeria, Babylon, etc. all show that the Bible utilizes distinctively Mesopotamian tropes, and the Pentateuch is even extraordinarily accurate when it comes to depicting second millenium BC Middle Eastern legal customs and economic conditions.
https://library.biblicalarchaeology.org/article/the-patriarchal-age-myth-or-history/

[Anonymous No.22942425]

>>22941827
Yeah dude Catholic societies are sooooo much better. And it's TOTALLY in line with Protestant traditions to allow women and faggots into church! This is a completely sincere argument!...

[Anonymous No.22942428]

>>22942395
>Parts of numbers have been found engraved on silver from before Homer's time.
doubtable.

>If anything, the Greeks would have been influenced by the Jews
What is more likely:
-that all of the Greeks throughout the centuries held a fucking conspiracy to plagiarize the bible, occluding the sources? (an opinion held by Eusebius, who also noticed a lot of peculiar similarities)
-that the jews got access to the Greek lit in the 3-2 century BCE through hellenized Egypt, and then wrote their damn book?


>>22942412
>all show that the Bible utilizes distinctively Mesopotamian tropes
Through Berossus, the Hellenized Babylonian priest. That's why the 'utilization' is so fucking crude.

[Anonymous No.22942429]

>>22942083
That's quite literally not the same sequence, though.

Also, how would this explain similarities between Second Temple Jewish and Christian thought on the one hand, and the teachings of the Hermetic corpus that probably influenced Plato on the other?

[Anonymous No.22942440]

>>22942428
>That's why the 'utilization' is so fucking crude.
"It's crude because I le said so." Clearly you haven't read anything about this topic whatsoever beyond your schizo niggerbabble.

[Anonymous No.22942446]

>>22942429
>how would this explain similarities between Second Temple Jewish and Christian thought on the one hand, and the teachings of the Hermetic corpus that probably influenced Plato on the other?
The same way it would explain The Elephantine Papyri, that showed that in the 4th century BCE the Jews had no idea about the bible, despite direct contacts with Jerusalem Temple. (Hence, the bible being written in the 3-2 century BCE)

[Anonymous No.22942462]

>>22942440
>"It's crude because I le said so."
Watts J.W. - Understanding the Pentateuch as a scripture (2017)

"The Pentateuch’s laws and instructions include a remarkably wide range of topics. Readers find here rules for cooking and eating, for punishing thieves and murderers, for making ritual offerings, and for sexual relationships. In ancient Middle Eastern cultures, such material was usually divided between the genres of wisdom teachings, ritual instructions, law codes, and international treaties. Each of the Pentateuch’s three major law collections mixes them together."

[Anonymous No.22942541]

>>22942111
I'd rather hear a coherent counterpoint, but i'll take it.

[Anonymous No.22942548]

>>22937565
It was actually a politically motivated rebellion against the teachings and authority of the Church.

[Anonymous No.22942602]

>>22942462
>>22942446
Read:

Exploring the Composition of the Pentateuch (edited by L. S. Baker Jr., Kenneth Bergland et al.)
Empirical Models Challenging Biblical Criticism (edited by Raymond F. Person Jr. and Robert Rezetko)
The Formation of the Hebrew Bible: A New Reconstruction (David M. Carr)
On the Reliability of the Old Testament (Kenneth Kitchen)

[Anonymous No.22942786]

>>22942425
>Yeah dude Catholic societies are sooooo much better

No tranny priests tho but keep coping

[Anonymous No.22942926]

>>22942385
>No mention of Mary
That would be something, wouldn't it. Considering John actually knew the woman.

[Anonymous No.22943246]

>>22942338
If you actually read your Bible you would see there are “ghosts” throughout.

I know you guys don’t actually believe in the text tho

[Anonymous No.22943249]

>>22942926
Nice shift of the goalpost

[Anonymous No.22944848]

>>22938665
>This all combined makes her a Big Deal

[Anonymous No.22945857]

>>22937698
He might be eastern Orthodox or something I dunno

[Anonymous No.22945869]

>>22942338
>>Mary is dead
>>She doesn't exist anymore
>>No really, she's plain gone
Holy shit, you don't even believe in Souls or Ghosts? You're no Christian