/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22902275]

Did reading Plato make any of you guys profoundly happier?

[Anonymous No.22902279]

>>22902275
>le pretty thoughts
>muh Truth, muh Beauty, muh Goodness, muh soullll
grow up

[Anonymous No.22902282]

I only really liked the parts of Plato that were less Metaphysics and more grounded like the Apology.

[Anonymous No.22902288]

>feel sad
>think of plato
>realize it's literally less plausible that he was just some random guy who happened to be really smart, than that he actually was a providential mystic sent by angels to pave the way for christ
>realize this means some form of hermetic metahistory is literally correct
>no longer feel sad

[Anonymous No.22902289]

>>22902275
When I was 16 I cried while reading the Apology. I was very lonely at that time and put on almost a mini-play of the dialogue for myself. Somewhere towards the end, the words of Socrates were too passionate and piercing for me and I broke down.

[Anonymous No.22902293]

>>22902289
You were chosen anon.

[Anonymous No.22902298]

>>22902275
Honestly yeah.


I might take Intensive Greek this semester because him and Epictetus were so affecting for me.

(I was actually going to come here to ask you guys if I should. It's not necessary and would help massively with grad school applications, but I just feel like it's the kind of quixotic shiny object that I always commit to when it would be easy to and give up when it becomes difficult, and so I feel like maybe I should give up even before I start.)

[Anonymous No.22902300]

>>22902275
yes

[Anonymous No.22902311]

>>22902288
or it just means that humans have always deluded themselves with feel-good transcendental delusions, like free will, the soul, heaven, etc. It’s embarrassing to read Plato talk about the soul, there’s no evidence for it. You literally just have to assume that it’s real. He doesn’t prove that it exists, he proves that it’s immortal.

[Anonymous No.22902312]

The souls returning to mortal life by the lake at the end of the republic is beautiful.

[Anonymous No.22902318]

>>22902311
Determinism is a human-made delusion like any other myth

[Anonymous No.22902319]

>>22902288
>>realize it's literally less plausible that he was just some random guy
Elaborate

[Anonymous No.22902342]

>>22902318
absolute determinism takes some faith, yes, but in practical matters it is much more useful and logical. There are hundreds of questions you could ask about souls and free will and the answers will be unsatisfying. Evolutionary biological determinism is pretty comprehensive and consistent and provides us a way forward for improving humanity on the genetic level. Otherwise you’re just waiting on someone to finally arrive with a good soul or that uses his free will in a good way, for whatever reason. You like these beliefs because they make you feel good, but in the end they will be outcompeted but falsifiable, scientific beliefs.

[Anonymous No.22902354]

>>22902342
Christianity moved on from Free Will a long time ago.

[Anonymous No.22902362]

>>22902311
Here comes the coping, demonic bugman.

[Anonymous No.22902364]

>>22902362
Religion is a cope you fool.

[Anonymous No.22902370]

>>22902364
Why do you feel the need to deboonk peoples "delusions"? I can already picture the smug troon on the other side of the screen

[Anonymous No.22902372]

>>22902342
>Evolutionary biological determinism is pretty comprehensive and consistent and provides us a way forward

[Anonymous No.22902382]

>>22902362
You’re barely above monkeys. You’re not special. Making decisions isn’t magic. Being nice isn’t magic. Wanting to not die but go to an eternal paradise is just a cope, humans invented all these delusions before science. God was invented when humans looked at lightning and said “wtf is that? It’s magic, it must be caused by something greater!” and the rest is history. Religion, like all things, evolved into more robust and comprehensive forms, managing to convince enough people to survive as a belief system. Your unfalsifiable beliefs persevere because they are.. unfalsifiable. But they won’t last forever. Thousands of years of these magical divine knowledge and nothing has been done.. but we are on the verge of genetically engineering ourselves to be much better than God’s “intelligent design.” He feared the Tower of Babel because he knew we would outshine him. That is, if he existed, which he most probably does not.

[Anonymous No.22902389]

>>22902370
>Why do you feel the need to deboonk peoples "delusions"?
I'm taking this to mean that you have never posted a dissenting opinion in response to an athiest's post.

[Anonymous No.22902444]

>>22902372
knowing that our behavior and personality traits are largely the result of genetics, and that humans evolved and STILL are evolving, is pretty fucking useful.

[Anonymous No.22902454]

>>22902382
You are a midwit atheist if you actually think that religion will go away any time soon or believe like Ray Kurzweil that in just a few decades (!) we will be able to reach immortality. Religion is one of the most innate parts of humans and is essential for keeping society together. You atheist bugman think you've surpassed religion yourselves, but you engage in quasi-religious copes yourselves, without which society wouldn't function.
And another thing: materialism is demonstrably false, as proven by the fact that qualia can't be accounted for by the physical sciences!

[Anonymous No.22902458]

>>22902454
>as proven by the fact that qualia can't be accounted for by the physical sciences!
?
Comes from de brain, no?

[Anonymous No.22902465]

>>22902454
>Religion is one of the most innate parts of humans and is essential for keeping society together.
Maybe, bit the fact that many different conflicting religions can get the job done weakens the case for any individual one being literally true over the others.

[Anonymous No.22902470]

>>22902458
Yes, but you can still know everything that the physical sciences tell you about someone's brain, but you still wouldn't know what it's like to have their subjective, first-person experiences.

[Anonymous No.22902474]

>>22902470
And yet those experiences cease while comatose etc. Where's the problem?

[Anonymous No.22902475]

>>22902444
Evolutionary psychology is not really considered the end-all by academic psychologists.
It also doesn't deal with moral issues and on what is an improvement.

[Anonymous No.22902480]

>>22902289
im sure your boyfriend loved it when you first told him this story

[Anonymous No.22902481]

>>22902454
>materialism is demonstrably false, as proven by the fact that qualia can't be accounted for by the physical sciences!
Still waiting for your dissertation along with your evidence on this retarded argument

[Anonymous No.22902486]

>>22902474
Nigga, the experiences are caused by the physical parts of the brain, but it doesn't mean that these experiences can be explained in purely physicalist terms.
>>22902465
Most religions worship the same God anyways

[Anonymous No.22902488]

>>22902454
When we genetically engineeer humans to be sinless and perfectly adapted to their environment, there will be no need for religion. Religion has only slowed us down not only scientifically, but genetically, because as you said, it is a part of our nature, because humans were selectively bred to be religious as religion has been so dominant in our culture for millennia. And that’s why atheism and degeneracy correlate so well, because the only thing holding back that degeneracy was religious social pressure and the fear of hell, and of course atheists like to rebel and do the OPPOSITE of what religion teaches. But if there were no religion then the degeneracy would be selected against with time, and people would no longer depend on it. There’s a reason some people are drawn more to religion than others, but religion explains this away as “God’s grace” which is clearly unfair and sadistic.
> materialism is demonstrably false, as proven by the fact that qualia can't be accounted for by the physical sciences!
How poetic. After I explained that religion was invented when the material sciences couldn’t account for lightning (or rainbows, or fire, or a lot of other shit that we now know how to explain and use), now you move the goalposts and do the exact same thing. Your immaterialism can’t explain consciousness either, you just say “we don’t know but at least it’s not materialism!” By the way, materialism is a vague notion and has an atomistic connotation, but it includes things like electromagnetic fields, which may be important in the formation of consciousness.

[Anonymous No.22902492]

>>22902486
>Nigga, the experiences are caused by the physical parts of the brain, but it doesn't mean that these experiences can be explained in purely physicalist terms.
I'm just not seeing the problem. We don't yet know what in the brain is doing it, but we know the brain is doing it because when you shut off the brain, thing stops.

>>22902486
>Most religions
>Most
keyword

[Anonymous No.22902505]

>>22902342
Like what beliefs? I don’t believe in absolute autonomous free will, since that’s also clearly an abstraction. But determinism is a total human-created myth reified just as much as an autonomous self-determining soul is. There is experience of choice, and that is not abstraction, no matter how many myths one invents to explain away and dismiss it.

[Anonymous No.22902511]

>>22902275
I read The Republic and it pretty much reinforced my preexisting anti-democratic thoughts.

[Anonymous No.22902524]

>>22902481
How is it retarded?
>>22902488
>But if there were no religion then the degeneracy would be selected against with time, and people would no longer depend on it. There’s a reason some people are drawn more to religion than others, but religion explains this away as “God’s grace” which is clearly unfair and sadistic.
Interesting argument. You seem to have quite a lot of faith in genetic engineering, but at the end of the day, you're hardly different from other utopians like socialists, who think that there will be no more delinquent behaviour in a socialist society, because everyone's needs will be met. You're using the same logic as socialists, but replacing class/economics with genetics: the cause of all sin (if this notion is even coherent in a mechanistic world) is genetics; ergo, once we genetically engineer away all delinquent behaviour, there will be no more sin. But this view is very reductionist, since you think the cause of all crime is genetics (it's not!).
>>22902492
>but we know the brain is doing it because when you shut off the brain
I'm not disagreeing with that. What I'm saying is that the material causes our non-material experiences. Therefore, it makes sense that in the absence of the brain, there are no experiences.

[Anonymous No.22902529]

>>22902505
>what beliefs
soul, free will, heaven, objective morality, “forms,” etc. If you actually believe in evolution AND take it to its logical conclusions, then all of these delusions fade away. Free will is an illusion, self is an illusion, objective morality is an illusion. All of these things evolved for a purpose, for sure, but once you start trying to build upon them with “logic,” the castle comes falling down eventually.

[Anonymous No.22902530]

>>22902488
>now you move the goalposts and do the exact same thing.
Cope
>Your immaterialism can’t explain consciousness either
How so?

[Anonymous No.22902535]

>>22902529
>Free will is an illusion, self is an illusion, objective morality is an illusion
The three hallmark beliefs of a midwit

[Anonymous No.22902542]

>>22902524
I’m being idealistic for poetic purposes, but there is clearly a causal relationship between genetics and behavior. That’s why some people are born rotten and others are naturally angels. You can’t deny this. It’s not as if some souls mysteriously tend to use their free will in similar ways across their lifetime. Of course we are shaped by our experiences, but genetics is fundamental. You can’t teach a fish calculus. You can’t even teach a chimp geometry. If everyone had more foresight, intelligence, compassion, etc. then the world WOULD be better. It may not be perfect but it would be BETTER.

[Anonymous No.22902546]

>>22902488
It’s not just that “science hasn’t found the answer yet, but it can and will in the future…” but that science literally cannot deal with consciousness, since its own paradigm excludes it by necessity.
The scientific process, by design, requires stripping & disregarding qualia from its material objects of analysis. What is left after this subtraction, is considered the matter which is the subject of the natural sciences.
You cannot have a method which innately subtracts qualia, to then analyze that same qualia.
It’s like if I took coffee, and then chemically removed all the coffee and purified the liquid until it was isolated to only water, and then I said “okay, now I’m gonna find and study the coffee *within* this pure isolated water, from which I’ve just removed all the coffee.”

[Anonymous No.22902549]

>>22902524
>What I'm saying is that the material causes our non-material experiences

[Anonymous No.22902553]

>>22902530
> Cope
yeah that’s what the ancient priests said when they swore up and down that God made lightning when he was angry
> How so?
explain consciousness then, and don’t be vague. Because I can easily be vague too: consciousness is the product of electrochemically induced fields unified into one EMF. It doesn’t actually explain much, just how your explanation won’t do much. You will just say “uh, the brain is like, a receiver or something. The pituitary gland is the seat of the soul!”
>>22902535
not an argument. But if you want to prove the existence of free will, then be perfect. Then define the self and why it persists across one’s lifetime, and define objective morality.

[Anonymous No.22902564]

>>22902546
That’s a big assumption. One day it may be possible for scientists to manipulate their own consciousness and relate the results to other people. They may find causal relationships between physically verifiable phenomena and the subjective phenomena, and if it holds true for all subjects, then we would have found a significant breakthrough.

[Anonymous No.22902572]

>>22902553
You’ve almost reached a respectable perspectivism but you’re still beholden to the myths of reductionist materialism and determinism.
This tweet:
>>22902529
Absolutely applies to materialism and determinism just as much as every religious view you’re critiquing
These are all explanations of experience which originate *from* experience and therefore do not actually at any point access objectivity or a reality ‘behind’ experience

[Anonymous No.22902585]

>>22902572
I’m simply proposing survival strategies. I think your beliefs are insufficient. I want to defeat the aliens, and the Chinese. And we won’t do that with ancient fairytales.

[Anonymous No.22902600]

>>22902546
This
>>22902553
>consciousness is the product of electrochemically induced fields unified into one EMF
How does this even capture what it's like to, say, feel pain?
>explain consciousness then
All I'm saying is that consciousness can't be explained in materialist terms.

[Anonymous No.22902601]

>>22902572
>arguing with the guy who posts screenshots of his twitter from his iphone

[Anonymous No.22902607]

>soulless memelord edgelord faggot arguing to normalize genetic engineering
Over my dead body, retarded oversocialized cunt. I'm not going to let stuff like genetic engineering and brain-cloud interfaces be normalized.

[Anonymous No.22902611]

>>22902600
> How does this even capture what it's like to, say, feel pain?
It doesn’t. That’s literally my point.
> All I'm saying is that consciousness can't be explained in materialist terms.
Every single unexplained phenomenon can’t be explained in materialist terms, because it can’t be explained at all! Starting with lightning (before we understood it, of course). But let’s assume that consciousness is unique and can never be explained in “materialist” terms or even explained at all. So what? It still wouldn’t prove that there is some sort of platonic realm with souls and gods etc. You’re just using the unknown to insert what you want.

[Anonymous No.22902615]

>>22902611
>But let’s assume that consciousness is unique and can never be explained in “materialist” terms or even explained at all. So what? It still wouldn’t prove that there is some sort of platonic realm with souls and gods etc. You’re just using the unknown to insert what you want.
Nigga, the point is that it breaks us free from the shackles of materialism.

[Anonymous No.22902617]

>>22902607
Fine, don’t complain when the Chinese supehumans are crushing your head with beneath their feet.

[Anonymous No.22902618]

>>22902611
>non-acceptance of materialism = idealism and theism
Lol. Lmao even.

[Anonymous No.22902619]

>>22902618
define materialism. I’ll wait

[Anonymous No.22902626]

>>22902619
Do you actually need someone to spell this out for you?
Materialism is the view that all phenomena can be explained by the physical sciences.

[Anonymous No.22902635]

>>22902275
Plato ruined my life

[Anonymous No.22902640]

>>22902626
Ok some phenomena can’t be explained by physics. That’s not absurd, since it makes no sense to explain physics in terms of physics. But that doesn’t stop us from trying to find out as much as we can, because we can still find out useful knowledge, and use it for our purposes. Just imagine if we knew how to directly affect qualia with physics. Would that count as an explanation? Either way it would be useful. What’s the alternative exactly? Throwing our hands up in the air and doing nothing?

[Anonymous No.22902665]

>>22902640
I would take you a lot more seriously if you didn't post this retarded meathead

[Anonymous No.22902666]

>>22902665
>he’s handsome therefore he’s a meathead
uh thanks for the compliment I guess, but I’m a twink

[Anonymous No.22902674]

>>22902665
>>22902666
desculpe não entendi bem a palavra.

But using insults without arguments is pretty cringe

[Anonymous No.22902677]

>>22902640
>everything has a cause
>except if you go back far enough. then it just randomly stops having causes.
retard alert

[Anonymous No.22902682]

>>22902674
>desculpe não entendi bem a palavra.
eres brasiliano? jajajaa

[Anonymous No.22902685]

>>22902677
if you assume that causality is absolute, then you’re left with the problem of explaining why the law of causality exists in the first place. When we talk about “nothing” this includes the absence of laws of logic and causality, so it’s not absurd that a universe with causal patterns has no cause. The alternative is believing in an infinite regress of causes, or self-causation, which are arguably more retarded.

[Anonymous No.22902734]

>>22902524
>How is it retarded?
It has no evidence and just replaces "we don't know how x works" with "it's le magic", everything can be boiled down to physical reactions, the only task is to research and describe how these processes occur and fit together

[Anonymous No.22902735]

>>22902734
>It has no evidence and just replaces "we don't know how x works" with "it's le magic"
You clearly misunderstand
>everything can be boiled down to physical reactions, the only task is to research and describe how these processes occur and fit together
Great, then can you explain to me how the physical sciences can impart to me the knowledge of what it is like to feel pain or feel heartbreak?

[Anonymous No.22902738]

>>22902734
Amnesia? It’s already been explained to you how the scientific paradigm precludes the possibility of ‘researching and describing how these processes fit together’
Science studying qualia is a square circle.

[Anonymous No.22902743]

>>22902735
> the knowledge of what it is like to feel pain or feel heartbreak?
what do you mean? I don’t understand the question

[Anonymous No.22902794]

>>22902275

nope, kant did

[Anonymous No.22902801]

>>22902311
>theres no evidence for it
Does there need to be evidence for the soul? Plato didn't argue for the existence of the soul because Socrates and all the rest of the Athenians he talked to took it as self-evident. It's pretty fuckin obvious that one has free will and can make choices and that we animate our bodies. Most deterministic thinking is really just self-doubt in one's own oherwise obviois autonomy

[Anonymous No.22902823]

>>22902801
>does there have to be evidence for something I try to claim as true
Yes?

[Anonymous No.22902826]

Reading Plato convinced me to convert to Christianity which has made me happier

[Anonymous No.22902827]

>>22902801
Do dogs have souls and free will?

[Anonymous No.22902830]

>>22902342
How is evolutionary biological determinism is pretty comprehensive when evolution isn't even comprehensive

[Anonymous No.22902842]

>>22902481
This book goes into detail about it

[Anonymous No.22902845]

>>22902823
The point is that the existence of the soul should be as obvious to you as the existence of your own smelly asshole. You inhabit your body daily and consciously make choices all the time. Many of which have nothing to do with darwinian instincts at all. What more proof do you need? Rather, what proof are you EXPECTING for a metaphysical concept?

[Anonymous No.22902850]

>>22902830
because the explanation is the same structure for all traits: we have certain traits because we evolved to have them. They gave us some sort of advantage in surviving and reproducing within a certain environment. That’s why we are “selfless,” to cooperate with others, to show off our status, form relationships, etc. Evolution is so simple, so marvelous. That is, if you understand it.

[Anonymous No.22902851]

>>22902311
Reading silly stuff like this makes me smile from ear to ear. Stupid atheist fucks don't understand anything at all lmao.

[Anonymous No.22902856]

>>22902851
You are insecure in your faith.

[Anonymous No.22902857]

>>22902845
how is making decisions impossible in a deterministic universe without souls? Animals make decisions all the time. We’re just smarter and have more variables running in the background. But because you aren’t aware of the variables, you feel as though “you” are making the choice. But you are simply following your greatest desire in the moment.

[Anonymous No.22902859]

>>22902856
Yes. My faith is real.

[Anonymous No.22902860]

>>22902842
pdf?
>>22902845
>The point is that the existence of the soul should be as obvious
So you have no evidence and just assume it to be true
>. You inhabit your body daily and consciously make choices all the time.
And all of these can be boiled down to matter reactions

[Anonymous No.22902861]

>>22902851
Being stuck in the materialist-atheist-bugman mindset after the age of 18 is embarrasing. Nigga, that was me when I was 13. It shows how developmentally behind they are.

[Anonymous No.22902862]

>>22902859
Your last post came off like a guy who gets triggered easily because he knows he "believes" in a load of bs. Which is really a credit to your intelligence that you're even having that battle desu.

[Anonymous No.22902864]

>>22902851
I can explain your delusions in my worldview easily. But you have to believe that I have a soul and yet I don’t believe it exists. How does that happen? Why isn’t my soul telling me to wake up and use my free will so I can go to heaven?

And as I always say, if YOU want to prove free will, then be perfect. So far no one has been able to do it. Will you be the first?

[Anonymous No.22902865]

>>22902861
Ok but where is the proof that God exists?

[Anonymous No.22902884]

Imagine being a human and understanding that dogs were bred to be much more compatible with humans than wild wolves, and not taking this to the logical conclusion that the same process can happen with humans, that we can bred for certain traits. It makes you wonder why God didn’t design us with better traits from the beginning. Sin is obviously not just the result of random “free will.” Even in making fun of me you prove I’m right, since you claim I’m stupid. Then why didn’t God make me intelligent?

[Anonymous No.22902892]

>>22902860
I dont have pdf, I had to had buy it for a philosophy class that centered exactly on this present subject. I'm sure you can find it somewhwre online senpai

[Anonymous No.22902895]

>>22902864
>that pic
>he doesnt know about about abductio ad absurdum

[Anonymous No.22902908]

>>22902895
If our brain is just made of chemicals, and our brain says that it is just made of chemicals, then that is literally true. What part of this do you not understand?

But anyway, the question that’s really being asked here is why should we trust the brain in general? Because we’re assuming that it’s chemicals, so why trust chemicals? Because they WORK. There is no such thing as knowledge, only conviction that comes with experience. We will continue to trust the brain until we die. And why should we trust the brain that it is just chemicals? For similar reasons. When you believe in magic woo woo like free will and souls, there is no progress to be made in neuroscience. If every single western scientist believed in free will and souls, then we would be DOOMED.

[Anonymous No.22902915]

>>22902861
>>22902865
Will I get an answer by the time I get back from work? Stay tuned, folks.

[Anonymous No.22902922]

>>22902915
I’m also waiting :
>>22902827

[Anonymous No.22902926]

>man with blindfold over his eyes feels around with his hands
>"will I ever gain so-called sight by feeling around with my hands like they claim I will?"
>"stay tuned folks"

[Anonymous No.22902931]

>>22902298
you should

[Anonymous No.22902939]

>>22902908
What part of abudctio ad absurdum do you not understand?

[Anonymous No.22902944]

>>22902275
I don't know if I would put it that way, but Plato was a genius who proved that if you seek after Wisdom, God will permit you to find it. I consider Republic among the greatest achievements of mankind.

[Anonymous No.22902947]

>>22902279
That IS growing up, you corpse.

[Anonymous No.22902952]

>>22902939
You’ve been broken, faggot. Crippled to repeat empty statements. You realized you had to be spoonfed basic logic so your brain glitched and repeated the same shit. Dance, monkey, dance.

[Anonymous No.22902957]

>>22902947
Society has been growing up for the past few millennia, and it’s proving your wrong

[Anonymous No.22902960]

>>22902952
Oh I see, you don't understand any part of it

[Anonymous No.22902974]

>>22902960
nothing absurd comes from assuming that the brain is just chemicals you absolute moron. If the brain is chemicals, then we trust them because it WORKS. That’s how evolution works. Everything is a survival strategy. Logic, knowledge, our beliefs, everything. You’re so buried in delusions that you can’t see it.

[Anonymous No.22902975]

>>22902827
Yeah, dogs have souls. Their souls are governed more by instinct and appetite than the human soul is, but they have souls nonetheless. According to Plato, even plants had souls.

[Anonymous No.22902981]

>>22902975
great, now define what a soul is and what it would look like if an animal didn’t have a soul, and why it’s impossible for an organism that doesn’t have a soul to look exactly like an organism that does have a soul.

[Anonymous No.22902989]

>>22902957
No, it isn't at all. I'm surprised that was your argument. It's a bad one--but what could I expect from a corpse?

[Anonymous No.22902990]

>>22902926
I accept your concession.

[Anonymous No.22902995]

>>22902990
I pray God grants you strength and wisdom.

[Anonymous No.22902998]

>>22902995
I pray you actually answer my question the next time this board of 5 people has the same thread.

[Anonymous No.22903003]

>>22902989
You have no arguments either. Literally just
>me became Christian when adult, therefore Christian is mature
ok and? I went from Christian to atheist to Christian to atheist to Christian and atheist again. Might as well say that believing in Santa is growing up because children are annoying when they brag about not believing in Santa. Are YOU one of those soulless Santa atheists that doesn’t believe in the magic of Christmas? Do you see how easy this is?

[Anonymous No.22903021]

>>22902981
I think the problem with that question is that everything has a soul. Plato talked about the tripartite nature of the soul, so even trees might be governed by what he calls epithumetikon or the appetite part but lack the higher faculties of the human soul such as logistikos (reasoning) or thumos (spirited and passionate) part

but basically souls are responsible for animation. if someone died and their body was inanimate, that, to Plato would indicate that their soul was separated from their body. however Plato believed that the soul was eternal and did not die with the body

[Anonymous No.22903023]

>>22902275
I generally find myself suffused with uplifted spirits when reading Plato. I get the same feeling when reading scripture. There was something so elevated and ennobling about Socrates and his associate's perspective on life. In retrospect, they seem like higher beings, a more advanced grade of man.

[Anonymous No.22903037]

>>22903021
unfalsifiable nonsense.
why do plants and animals move?
>they have souls!
This is the classic Kant trick. We can use reason because we have… a faculty of reason! Nietzsche already showed how pathetic this is. You’re not actually saying anything, it’s not falsifiable, and it’s unnecessary in modern science, because we know that chemical reactions and electrical impulses and muscle movements etc. are what cause movement.

[Anonymous No.22903046]

>>22903023
Plato is like the liberalism of philosophy, because it’s purely designed to be “politically correct.” It makes you feel like a good person but there’s no actual logic going on, it’s just pretty platitudes. If Socrates understood the theory of evolution he would agree with me

[Anonymous No.22903049]

>>22903037
Nietzsche would find your knee-bending to pseudo evo-psych ideology, to be utter Herd behaviour
If Platonism and Christianity are myths, so is your determinism
It’s just another way of disowning one’s fundamental responsibility for one’s actions and values
But rather than ‘God’s will’, you can explain away all your actions in terms of nerve impulses and genetic ‘predispositions’

[Anonymous No.22903069]

>>22903037
Many things are unfalsifiable but we act as if they exist anyway. Justice, goodness, virtue, etc are among them. I don't think you will find the proof that you are looking for that free will or souls or God or any metaphysical concepts exist empirically, because such proofs don't. You already knew this, so consider the case closed. What you might consider is an ethical perspective: Many argue against determinism on ethical grounds. If all actions are predetermined, it becomes difficult to hold individuals morally responsible for their actions. The belief in free will is seen as essential for moral responsibility and justice. Even though an idea like moral responsibility and justice are unfalsifiable abstracts, consider whether or not such beliefs elevate your humanity. Does justice elevate humanity? Does virtue? Does the existence of a soul?

[Anonymous No.22903078]

>>22903049
I’m thinking about humanity and how to go forward. Believing in God and free will just leaves you in the dark ages, fighting wars with Muslims for millennia after milennia until we evolve into something greater. I say we speed up the process with actual understanding of how the world works and what exactly influences human behavior. Otherwise the Chinese will do it and destroy us all.
>>22903069
Punishment exists in many species. It’s an evolved behavior. It’s not that complicated. We have certain conditions that we want to bring about, so we deter people from acting certain ways, or we try to correct their natures when they act wrongly. Punishment makes less sense with free will. Why punish them if their behavior isn’t determined by nature and nurture, but completely unpredictable by some soul with free will? If someone commits a crime, there’s no reason to think they’ll do it again, so why put them in jail? Do you see how free will just makes everything confusing and retarded as soon as you investigate it beyond the knee-jerk sensation of “I MAKE CHOICES SO I HAVE FREE WILL DURRR”

[Anonymous No.22903089]

>>22903078
>Punishment makes less sense with free will. Why punish them if their behavior isn’t determined by nature and nurture, but completely unpredictable by some soul with free will? If someone commits a crime, there’s no reason to think they’ll do it again, so why put them in jail?
nigga you actually retarded wtf

[Anonymous No.22903095]

>>22903089
you niggas think that free will means anybody can just be a psychopath serial killer one day and an angel the next day, they just have to CHOOSE it. By punishing them you’re implicitly affirming determinism because you’re trying to literally determine their beliefs by deincentivizing crime.

[Anonymous No.22903098]

Materialists getting BTFO here

[Anonymous No.22903101]

>>22903078
Choice is the most concrete reality imaginable. Every experience is characterized by some choice I am making. Free will is a loaded term with theological baggage attached, but choice is totally impervious to doubt. To deny choice is as absurd as denying that one is conscious.
Every ‘higher world’ or platonic immaterial realm, is an abstraction that doesn’t have anything to do with life as it is actually concretely lived, no doubt. So is determinism, equally so. Total abstraction. I have never seen this view-from-nowhere billiard ball realm of neural puppeteering that you say fully determines choice. It is an abstraction, just as imaginary as the Forms

[Anonymous No.22903104]

>>22903046
I don't know what to say to this other than that I am unmoved by your lowly opinion.

[Anonymous No.22903112]

>>22903098 >>22903089
>>22903069
>>22903049
>>22902995
>>22902960

If you want to prove free will, then be perfect.

Until then, I’ll continue to believe that your actions are just evolved deterministic mechanisms. I’ll wait :)

[Anonymous No.22903123]

>>22902288
insightpilled
follow the light within anon

[Anonymous No.22903143]

>>22903112
Notice that the actions/choices are given, and the ‘belief that they are just evolved deterministic mechanisms’ only comes second, occurring parasitical on the given reality of choice. Choice and action require no belief, they are given.
The gratuitous *belief*, being secondary, and altering nothing of the initial given fundamental phenomenon of choice, remains totally arbitrary.
And for that reason, it can be no more or less true than a soul or immaterial force, likewise arbitrary and gratuitous additions to what is given.

[Anonymous No.22903144]

>>22902311
>I can’t see it; therefore, it doesn’t exist.
The blindness of rationalism is staggering.

[Anonymous No.22903147]

All these feel-good delusions are like “return to monke” but in the psychological domain. You seek comfort, which has traditionally been these simple delusions. You are afraid to adapt to your new environment, you are afraid. The unwillingness or inability to adapt to new information is peak unintelligence. You WILL be replaced.

[Anonymous No.22903150]

>>22903143
holy word salad go to sleep ESL

[Anonymous No.22903151]

>>22903143
elaborate way of coping for not being able to use your so-called free will and align all of your behaviors with your most rational desires.

[Anonymous No.22903154]

>>22903147
atheism is pathological precociousness

[Anonymous No.22903159]

>>22903150
You will never explain away choice
Explaining away choice by reducing it to mechanism, is itself a choice.
Explaining away consciousness by reducing it to mechanism, is an act being engaged in by a conscious subject.

[Anonymous No.22903164]

>>22903151
Common thread with you of ‘if you’re not my extreme, you must be the opposite extreme’
>if you’re not a materialist… you must be an idealist!
>if you’re not a determinist… you must believe in fully self-determining rational free will!

[Anonymous No.22903168]

>>22902975
>Their souls are governed more by instinct and appetite
Literally all human behaviour is instinct, retard, everything you do/say/think is just shit your atoms learned from basic instinctual behaviour

[Anonymous No.22903175]

>>22903168
You’re not even arguing anymore, you’re just stating your conclusion

[Anonymous No.22903177]

What special sort of attention seeking retard/spiritual woman do you have to be to post your owm screenshots of your own tweets alongside your posts on this anonymous forum.

[Anonymous No.22903179]

>>22903175
I just started arguing with you, there's more than one person in the thread, you know

[Anonymous No.22903185]

>>22903164
>>22903159
Everyone knows we make decisions. But decisions are just the result of following our strongest desires. Every animal does this. Humans aren’t special, we’re just a little more abstract, that’s it. If by “free will” you mean the ability to make a decision then we literally agree. I just think the decision is predetermined with the ILLUSION that it is not. You don’t even know how to define free will without simply saying “much choices” which is vague and compatible with determinism

[Anonymous No.22903186]

>>22902288
>rationalize findings into pre-existing worldview
>internal conflict resolved
crazy how this works

[Anonymous No.22903194]

Your time is coming to an end, platonists. It may take a few centuries but it will happen. All of your ideas will become obsolete. It’s already happening.

[Anonymous No.22903197]

>>22903185
>I just think the decision is predetermined with the ILLUSION that it is not.
Unfalsifiable gobbledygook

[Anonymous No.22903199]

>>22902492
>but we know the brain is doing it
Kek

[Anonymous No.22903200]

Your argument? Yeah, unfalsifiable gobbledygook.

[Anonymous No.22903204]

>>22903197
neuroscientists showed the decision is made before the person is aware of it. Yawn.

[Anonymous No.22903205]

>>22903200
You primarily appeal to science for ‘proving’ your view
It being unfalsifiable, means your appeal doesn’t work

[Anonymous No.22903210]

>>22903204
But your atoms are aware of it, thus you are aware of it

[Anonymous No.22903215]

>>22903210
If you want to prove free will, be perfect. Why follow your monkey urges? Always act rational. What’s the matter? Predetermined?

[Anonymous No.22903218]

>>22903215
both
sorry if too complicated

[Anonymous No.22903220]

>>22903205
I'm nta

[Anonymous No.22903225]

>>22903215
>Why follow your monkey urges?
Because I can
>Always act rational
Define rational
>Predetermined?
Only within the confines of all the possible states of reality, yes, things behave a certain way, thus they have certain outcomes, but to say that you have no choice in influencing outcomes which extend beyond basic laws of physics, such as atom bonding, is ignorant, the universe is too chaotic of a system for a specific position of a hydrogen atom some 3 billion years ago to cause the holocaust, it was through the influence of a human being that this occured

[Anonymous No.22903230]

ITT: determinist anons don’t understand transcendence vs facticity
to acknowledge facticity doesn’t destroy (not pre-determined) choice

[Anonymous No.22903231]

>>22903037
>chemical reactions and electrical impulses and muscle movements etc. are what cause movement.
And what causes chemical reactions and electrical impulses?

[Anonymous No.22903244]

The determined/material side of things is Satan, the soulful/spontaneous/good/conscious/free-will side is divine. It's quite simple to grasp if you aren't a retard.

[Anonymous No.22903245]

>>22903231
the laws of physics, everything eventually boils down to an infinite loop of reactions or there's some hard limit (aka god), but that also creates a predicament as to where that limit came from, basically reality is a clusterfuck and you'll never find out since you'll die and be thrown into the void for some quadrillion years before you're vomited out again as some semi-conscious being vaguely aware of its existence in some larger system and the ride begins again, enjoy your eternal damnation

[Anonymous No.22903249]

>>22903245
So you don’t know. But you do know i’ll be vomited back. Rick and morty tier iq.

[Anonymous No.22903251]

>>22903245
this is the core of it - but I don't think you should get so caught up in that last bit. I'd end it at direct realism, accept that the topology of our universe -is-, has been, and will be for an amount of time you can't really process, that you have 90 years give or take, and go from there.

[Anonymous No.22903272]

>>22903037
Claiming the principle of falsification is necessary to have knowledge is also unfalsifiable

[Anonymous No.22903273]

>>22903249
>So you don’t know. But you do know i’ll be vomited back
Well you've already been dead, all consciousness is fundamentally the same thing, the only thing that separates us is our forms, there is no real "you", you are whatever the universe wants you to be
>>22903251
>that you have 90 years give or take, and go from there
Only this current form, but there is fundamentally no difference between me or anything else, I am just made from a collection of things which will eventually dissolve and coalesce into something else and another consciousness is formed, just as I awakened in this form I will awaken in some other at some other time and the ride begins again, I'm not sure if there will ever be a conscious being in the history of all reality which will figure everything out, just a loop of creation and destruction

[Anonymous No.22903278]

>>22903273
>there is fundamentally no difference between me or anything else
proofs

[Anonymous No.22903281]

>>22903245
Intention cannot be explained by this worldview

[Anonymous No.22903352]

>>22903278
Prove what, after this body ceases to function all the memories (aka consciousness) goes with it, the atoms dissolve and get redistributed, eventually matter coalesces again to form new memories and some other consciousness, but there is no difference between my consciousness or another, there is nothing that dictates I couldn't have been anything else, a virus, amoeba, trilobite, your mom or even you, perhaps, within these billions of years of existence I could've lived out a thousand lives and I wouldn't know, for everything that I know is only what this form knows, but I know I was dead once and there was nothingness, not the sort you see when you go to sleep, you're still conscious then, but an incomprehensible void of absolutely nothing, no feelings, no memories, no time, no space, just nothing, maybe the "soul" is the universe itself, a simple primordial consciousness semi-aware of its existence (aka god if you will), because for something to exists there must be information of its existence, for there to be information of its existence there must be something to retain and process that information, which means that whatever holds that information has to be fundamentally aware of it to some degree and if it is aware of it it has to be, on some level, conscious, perhaps we are just an extension of that, instinctual behaviour of bare elements combined to achieve what they can not individually, to better understand themselves and figure out where they came from and what their purpose is, but of course whatever we come up with is ultimately fictitious and can't be proved beyond our immediate senses, even existence itself can be falsified to the point where everything just boils down to it being an illusion, since you can just enter entire realities every time you go to sleep and just a drop of acid can manipulate your consciousness to the point where unimaginable vistas open up before your eyes which feel as real as anything else in your waking dream. In the end it's all just a funny play and we have no choice but to roll with it.

[Anonymous No.22903370]

>>22903352
What a massive cope

[Anonymous No.22903379]

>>22903370
Cope with what, there's, quite literally, nothing to cope with

[Anonymous No.22903445]

>>22903379
What a fantastical worldview built on many unreliable assumptions.

[Anonymous No.22903460]

>>22902311
> can't prove the foundation for empirical observation through empirical observation
Aristotle proves the immateriality of the soul from the irreducibility of concepts into matter

[Anonymous No.22903486]

>>22902685
> The alternative is believing in an infinite regress of causes, or self-causation, which are arguably more retarded.
No. The last option would be that the original cause doesn't exist, it isn't a thing. There is then nothing to cause.

[Anonymous No.22903499]

>>22903352
>all the memories (aka consciousness)
This is plain wrong. Consciousness has nothing to do with memories. It is the pure act of being conscious, it isn't restricted by anytjing you do, it is always present. Memories are built through experience with material objects. Consciousness is the ground for all of them, but transcends all of them.

[Anonymous No.22903516]

>>22902275
I honestly feel that way when Socrates hits on a cute servant twink. The ancient gayreeks had a far superior culture

[Anonymous No.22903525]

>>22902685
>then you’re left with the problem of explaining why the law of causality exists in the first place
because if causes don't exist then nothing happens.
>why does something happen?
gee idk, million dollar question.
>why does causation have consistency?
if it didn't, we wouldn't be able to have knowledge of anything.
>The alternative is believing in an infinite regress of causes, or self-causation, which are arguably more retarded.
any argument that holds "spontaneous generation and collapse of causation at any random time" as a premise is profoundly more retarded. it turns every instance of claimed knowledge into a massive case of special pleading
>infinite regress of causes, or self-causation
you can have both with the same theory.

[Anonymous No.22903538]

of course. the whole deal of the greeks were that profound truth to life gave the highest pleasure possible to the human mind, that's why they chased and documented it.

[Anonymous No.22903587]

>>22902311
>Physics can't even explain how a traffic light works because it can't explain perception.
>But it says I don't exist and only it does, so that must be true.

[࿇ I V S E I ࿇ !!GgBWHLRiayD No.22903662]

To believe in the illusion of happiness is to stray from the reality of sorrow.

[Jon Kolner No.22903705]

>>22902275
I’m not a Platonist by any means but the Rossellini adaptation of the Apology brought me to tears and was what initially brought me to the western canon after watching it on tv when I was 22. The part where Socrates says “I now go to die and you to live. Who goes to the better place is only for the gods to know” had me sobbing.

[Anonymous No.22903981]

>>22902957
you* or you're*
t. ESL and I speak better English than you

[Anonymous No.22904174]

>>22902288
This is how I feel except about ancient architecture. Look at ancient Roman architecture and ancient Japanese architecture, how did men get the ideas to design these things back then? I just thought about this today, and it made me wonder if all the gods they believe in really exist and gave them the ideas for their beautiful and elaborate architectural styles.

[Anonymous No.22904198]

>>22904174
Read a few history books lol

[Anonymous No.22904409]

>>22903003
>I went from Christian to atheist to Christian to atheist to Christian and atheist again
So basically you're not a person anyone should listen to and, of course, you still speak like a confident retard. Got it.

[Anonymous No.22904556]

>>22902685
At least start with the Greeks if you're going to facefag. How embarrassing can you get?

[Anonymous No.22904675]

>>22902944
Agree but it's not even his best dialogue. (Tim. more genius by far)

[Anonymous No.22905095]

Why would getting into philosophy make me happy? Gee, all this time spent reading and thinking sure did wonders!

[Anonymous No.22905114]

>>22904675
I haven't read that one yet. I consider several of his dialogues major achievements. I'll put Timaeus on my list for this year.

[Anonymous No.22905126]

>>22905114
Timaeus is forefront to Plato because it is the one Christians claimed as theirs during the Middle Ages.

[Anonymous No.22905821]

>>22902275
I worship Plato as a god, as did all the wise men of the Mediterranean of the past two and a half millennia.
Deport all /his/tards btw.

[Anonymous No.22906758]

episteme =/= gnosis
Zoomer anti-intellectualism will be unlike anything we’ve seen before.

[Anonymous No.22908200]

>>22902389
Thats so cute, you didn't answer his question because you have no answer, instead you tried to attack him, you're such a midwit and it's hilarious.

[Anonymous No.22908276]

>>22902382
> we are on the verge of genetically engineering ourselves to be much better than God’s “intelligent design.” He feared the Tower of Babel because he knew we would outshine him.
The Satanism always comes out

[Anonymous No.22909359]

>>22902288
Based Post.

[Anonymous No.22909373]

>>22902372
>Tranime poster
Kys