/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22532012]

I've been reading Ulysses (I'm a third of the way in) and while its stream of consciousness is intriguing and surprisingly easy to read (differently from Woolfe's, which i couldn't follow for more than 2 sentences without my mind wandering), I'm a bit perplexed.

Before tackling this I've read "Infinite Jest" and while I see why it's a meme, it's also very fun, very thought-provoking, very grim, very everything a novel can be. It pushes the novel format to its extremes. I understand its success. But Ulysses, for now, it's quite bland. From its symbolism and the constant citations from Shakespeare, Dante, the Bible, etc., it's clear that Joyce put an enormous amount of work into this, and yet, the result is meh. I have yet to come across a single truly beautiful sentence or a truly striking concept. And since I've read almost 400 pages, this is starting to get concerning.

My question to its admirers is (without any polemic intent): why do you like it so much? Why do you think it's not only worth reading, but a masterpiece?

>inb4 filtered
Elaborate.

>inb4 you were expecting too much
I was expecting a lot from IJ as well, but it delivered.

>inb4 then stop reading it if you hate it so much!
I don't hate it, I just find it oddly meh and wanted to make sure whether I was missing something or not.

[Anonymous No.22532082]

>>22532012
I've never read it but I've heard from someone who has read it 8 times that you should use a guide.

[Anonymous No.22532098]

>>22532012
To compare a book like IJ to a book like Ulysses is like trying to compare King Crimson to John Coltrane. You're only getting the former because of ideas thrown out by the latter. Ulysses, in the context of the 1920s, is absolutely insane. Its dense, with the entire book's taking of the Odyssey and ramming it into one day in the life of an Irish Jew is beyond inventive. The way the writing style changes up entirely each chapter with Joyce pulling a different shitpost for no reason but because he can is so fun and ridiculous--it gives you scenes like the "romantic" wank in the park, the entirety of Oxen of the Sun, the mathematical description of two drunk dudes pissing on a fence, the change to a psychotic play while at the whorehouse, all capped off by the true masterwork, Molly's soliloquy.

[Anonymous No.22532099]

>>22532082
I'm reading an epub with a shitload of hyperlinks that explain references and citations and I also have a separate guide I occasionally consult. But only occasionally, because I've also read that agonizing over every little sentence is a guaranteed way to lose steam and exhaust yourself halfway through, and that you should simply read it without trying to understand everything.

[Anonymous No.22532100]

I felt the same way too Op. I started with Joyce by reading Portrait of the Artist which is, by contrast, full of beautiful moments and painful thoughts from Stephen. And I expected the same from Ulysses. It was only when I finished the work that I realised why it lacked such things. It's because the book is about two hopeless men wandering around the same city they've always known. One is a cuck who lost his son and feels like his life has no joy other than the miniscule pleasures (eating the innards of creatures, the shaking of a woman's rump, etc.) And the other is a man who wanted to be a great artist free of the church and Ireland but now finds himself shackled to his faith and his homeland (mostly by his own grief). On top of this Stephen is treated by his peers as a thing to be used and as a Dancing monkey. So how can you expect these men to look out at the same tedious little city with hope and love, laced with flowery little verses here and there? Ulysses really is a book about the average, their wars and their struggles, and the potential for the future. This is only manifested fully in Bloom and Stephens meeting and departure at night, and the closing portion (I'd hate to spoil it for you, but the ending reduced me to tears for quite some time and it made the entire work all click together, showing it to be a testament to the fact that there will always be hope, there will always be a grand Yes in the world, as long as you're willing to seek it).

[Anonymous No.22532108]

>>22532098
>>22532100
Interesting posts. I will finish it after all.

[Anonymous No.22532111]

>>22532098
>the mathematical description of two drunk dudes pissing on a fence
Was Joyce a time traveler? This is the sort of shitposting even Vonnegut wouldn't dare. That Joyce wrote it in 1920 is incredible. And they actually published it.

[Anonymous No.22532117]

>>22532111
less a time traveler and more just one who saw the path forward.

It's not like he was alone in it--he had plenty to go by. Ulysses is a clear result from the line of Don Quixote, The Anatomy of Melancholy, Tristram Shandy, and Moby Dick

[Anonymous No.22532118]

>>22532100
I started reading the first few pages of Portrait and it made me feel something I haven't felt in years. It felt like I was experiencing childhood all over again.

[Anonymous No.22532159]

>>22532117
>Moby Dick
That also has chapters in different styles. Maybe Melville wasn't gay after all.

[Anonymous No.22532671]

>>22532159
>the guy who wrote this wasn't gay

[Anonymous No.22532708]

Sers... is it worth it to read it in translation? My english is very good but not enough to get all the nuances and wordplays...

[Anonymous No.22533762]

>>22532708
pls respond.

[Anonymous No.22533811]

>>22532708
No. Just read English if you can. There's enough to focus on narratively to keep you going even if you miss most the references etc... You can always reread or seek out secondary literature if you feel the need. Besides, plenty of L1 English speakers don't know anything about Parnel or the invincibles or what pissabed and kip-house mean

[Anonymous No.22533815]

>>22532708
English, but maybe get a guide.

[Anonymous No.22533827]

>>22532098
When I read it the only chapter I couldn’t understand at all was Oxen of the Sun. Every other chapter I was fine with for the most part but I had no clue what was happening in that one.
>>22532708
Honestly you’d need an encyclopaedic knowledge to get everything in Ulysses, it’s a matter of personal experience and learning as well as English skill. I imagine it would be difficult to translate in the first place. I would try reading it in English, it is a hard book to read regardless

[Anonymous No.22533842]

>>22533827
I haven't a clue what happens in Oxen and the Sun and I've read it three times

[Anonymous No.22534303]

>>22533842
Use this
http://m.joyceproject.com/chapters/telem.html

Although Joyce's English can be fairly complicated occasionally, most of the time it's a matter of knowing the reference.

[Anonymous No.22534563]

>>22532012
is it any different that Proustian "stream of consciousness"?

[Anonymous No.22534622]

>>22534563
Very different. in fact I can't even think of a single similarity.

[Anonymous No.22534718]

>>22533842
That’s so reassuring. I remember feeling so lost even after reading a plot summary. I did notice the sequential parody thing but couldn’t get any messing out of it. Maybe it’ll make more sense next time

[Anonymous No.22534867]

>>22534718
>I did notice the sequential parody thing but couldn’t get any messing out of it.
It tracks the development of the English language throughout history, and ends with the incoherent yowling of drunks. That's the punchline.

[Anonymous No.22534879]

>>22534622
I got you man: they are both called "stream of consciousness".

[Anonymous No.22534910]

>>22534879
No I wouldn't even call what Proust does stream of consciousness. Never seen it referred to that way before either.

[Anonymous No.22534916]

>>22534910
What does he do? What would you call it?

I've been meaning to read him for ages but there's always some other book in the way. Convince me to take the plunge.

[Anonymous No.22534935]

>>22534916
Reflective narrative interwoven with essayistic digressions. Bit of a mouthful can't think of anything pithy

[Anonymous No.22534940]

>>22534935
>Reflective narrative interwoven with essayistic digressions + faggotry
Sounds delightfully autistic. Alright, I'm sold.

[Anonymous No.22534953]

>>22532012
Infinite Jest is absolute dogshit.
I guess you enjoy shit.

[Anonymous No.22534957]

>>22534953
>I said it mom, I said le edgy thing, now they will think I'm cool!

[Anonymous No.22534965]

>>22534940
>faggotry
His writing can be a bit turgid at times but when he gets to the gay shit the prose absolutely soars- especially the cruising scene at the beginning of book four

[Anonymous No.22534972]

>>22534965
>there is actually, honestly gay shit in one of the most highly regarded books ever written
Between this, Shakespeare fart jokes and Joyce's piss jokes I'm starting to think you need to be 10% retarded to be a genius.

[Anonymous No.22535167]

>>22532012
>I've been reading Ulysses (I'm a third of the way in

Nobody really reads that book. Get the summary from Wikipedia and just tell everyone you've read it.

[Anonymous No.22535187]

>>22535167
Based. That's what I'm doing.

t. someone a third of the way in the summary.

[Anonymous No.22535649]

>Leopold Bloom
More like Leocuck Bloom amIright?

[Anonymous No.22535672]

>>22535187
>can't even finish the summary

[Anonymous No.22535693]

>>22535672
Nobody really reads the summary. They all read the summary's summary written by some anon on /lit/.

[Anonymous No.22535774]

>>22535693
Nobody really reads the summary's summary. They all look at a meme some spastic on 4channel did without even reading the book, simply using the information in this thread and guessing the rest.

[Anonymous No.22536015]

>>22535774
>prepuce
Mr Bloom is uncircumcised, though

[Anonymous No.22536435]

>>22536015
>Mr Bloom is uncircumcised
We know that for sure? It's in the text?
Also, why? He's a jew.

[Anonymous No.22536645]

>>22532012
>why do you like it so much? Why do you think it's not only worth reading, but a masterpiece?
because it's the best use of the stream of consciousness writing style there is. Woolf is trash. That third person SoC is bullshit and Woolf doesn't have much to say about human psychology. And Proust gets lumped in too but all he's doing is telling a story with beautifully digressive sentences. He's great at it but it's not stream of consciousness

If you like Joyce's writing style here then be sure to read We'll to the Woods No More

[Anonymous No.22536778]

>>22532708
EFL here. Don't you dare read it in translation. The style alone will carry you along. You've got this. I've read this: http://m.joyceproject.com/chapters/telem.html

[Anonymous No.22536793]

>>22536778
>EFL
So you're a native speaker? You will never understand my pain.

[Anonymous No.22536797]

Damn, I was about to make the exact same thread.

I got the same problem.
I'm at like page 50 something and as far as I understand the ongoing plot at that point, the character is walking down the beach.
But I don't even know.
There's so much obscure ranting about topics that feels like it's just supposed to be a circlejerking nod to 19th century literary aristocrats.

Does it get any better?

[Anonymous No.22536849]

>>22536797
>a circlejerking nod to 19th century literary aristocrats.
Worse. From IRISH literary aristocrats.
I'm 450 pages in. It gets worse. A lot.

[Anonymous No.22537101]

>>22536797
Stephen chapters are brutal. Can't remember page count but the first 3 chapters are Stephan chapters. You can't really start to judge the book until the Bloom chapters, he's a lot more relatable. Not an educated smartass etc

[Anonymous No.22537143]

>>22536793
I thought it means English as a Foreign language, but now I realize it might mean as a First language. I'm of the former kind. Use the link I gave you.

[Anonymous No.22537151]

>>22537101
Really, I thought the Stephen chapters were some of the best and I'm certainly not very educated. His SoC is just so much more captivating.

[Anonymous No.22537187]

>>22537143
Yeah, you meant ESL (english as second language).

[Anonymous No.22537271]

>Stately, plump Leopold Bloom ate with relish the inner organs of beasts and fowls.
Prose game on point. I like IJ too but Wallace has never written a single beautiful sentence in his life. Just dense preachy ones.

[Anonymous No.22537292]

is the cucking in this book a big part of the story? The prevalence of this shit in classic lit is starting to get on my nerves. I don't enjoy reading about it at all. I would rather read the shit sucking scene from GR.

[Anonymous No.22537322]

>>22536435
Yes, he mentions having to pull back his foreskin at some point in the text.
>why? He’s a jew
His father was a Jew who converted to Protestantism, his mother was a Catholic, and Bloom himself is a lukewarm Catholic after having married Molly. He was not raised as a Jew at all. This is half the irony of Bloom’s identity, especially because according to traditional Jewish law Jewish descent is matrilineal, not patrilineal (one’s mother has to be Jewish for one to be a “Jew” — of course, this is more of a nicety of traditional Jewish law and not particularly always cared about, but it’s still a fact Joyce was undoubtedly referencing). So Bloom isn’t even “Jewish” enough to be a proper Jew and wasn’t raised Jewish, yet to others he has half-Jewish blood, which is enough to make him a Jew, an outsider. This furthers the parallel of Bloom as “exiled,” like Odysseus.

>>22537292
Maybe being an 18-year-old obsessed with 4chanz memez isn’t the ideal audience to get something out of a book like this. May I recommend something more up to your speed, like smoking methamphetamine and jerking off for 12+ hours and sharing sõy-wojak memes on Twitter instead?

[Anonymous No.22537337]

>>22537322
>the 4channel autist lashes out in fury at having his beloved cuckoldry insulted

[Anonymous No.22537340]

>>22537292
The cucking is relentless

[Anonymous No.22537388]

>>22537337
maybe the next Joyce will write a classic about fapping to tranny porn so you can relate

[Anonymous No.22537444]

>>22537388
Here's to hoping.

[Anonymous No.22537452]

>>22537388
>the next Joyce
I'm not planning to, but maybe the next Pynchon will.

[Anonymous No.22537527]

>>22537322
>Maybe being an 18-year-old obsessed with 4chanz memez isn’t the ideal audience to get something out of a book like this. May I recommend something more up to your speed, like smoking methamphetamine and jerking off for 12+ hours and sharing sõy-wojak memes on Twitter instead?
Relax, guy, I just fail to appreciate cucking stories because it's normally about the inner turmoil of some guy getting cucked and that's boring to me. You got cucked? Okay, move on and get over it. Maybe it's something you relate to more than me? Also you're the one who just spat out like 50 buzzwords so you can make a 'point' (which you didn't) so maybe save the /pol/tard shit for people it actually applies to.
>>22537340
ffs

[Anonymous No.22537578]

>>22537527
He enjoys getting cucked tho. Hasn't himself made love to Molly in ages

[Anonymous No.22537603]

>>22537578
if this is true that's what I feared. If the cucking is a small plot point then who cares but if the entire book revolves around it then I've lost some interest. In the Odyssey Penelope is completely faithful and it's a huge aspect of her character, so is this some sort of subversion that Joyce undertakes?

[Anonymous No.22537657]

>>22537603
Yeah, and instead of fending off the suiters, he tries to find a better more congenial one.
But really, if you like the Odyssey you'll get atleast something out of it. Would put your reservations aside and go in with the notion that it's a comedic work and the subversions are played for jokes and not wantonness.

[Anonymous No.22537681]

>>22537657
Okay, I'll probably get round to it just to finish off the /lit/ trilogy. Yeah, I loved the Odyssey so there is likely something for me there and I'll probably care less about the cucking if the book is good - which obviously isn't up for argument.

[Anonymous No.22537689]

>>22537681
>isn't up for argument.
I've read the opinions of lots of professional writers. Half seem to love it, the other half hates it. So there is some debate.

[Anonymous No.22537693]

>>22537689
Interesting, makes me want to read it more.