Buddhist literature

[Anonymous No.22442728]

Is Buddhism the original sigma grindset. Read this sutta from the Udana:

Saṅgāmaji had arrived in Sāvatthī to see the Blessed One. His former wife heard, "Master Saṅgāmaji, they say, has arrived in Sāvatthī." Taking her small child, she went to Jeta's Grove. On that occasion Ven. Saṅgāmaji was sitting at the root of a tree for the day's abiding. His former wife went to him and, on arrival, said to him, "Look after me, contemplative — (a woman) with a little son." When this was said, Ven. Saṅgāmaji remained silent. A second time... A third time, his former wife said to him, "Look after me, contemplative — (a woman) with a little son." A third time, Ven. Saṅgāmaji remained silent.

Then his former wife, taking the baby and leaving him in front of Ven. Saṅgāmaji, went away, saying, "That's your son, contemplative. Look after him."

Then Ven. Saṅgāmaji neither looked at the child nor spoke to him. His wife, after going not far away, was looking back and saw Ven. Saṅgāmaji neither looking at the child nor speaking to him. On seeing this, the thought occurred to her, "The contemplative doesn't even care about his son." Returning from there and taking the child, she left.

The Blessed One — with his divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — saw Ven. Saṅgāmaji's former wife misbehaving in that way.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:


At her coming,
he didn't delight;
at her leaving,
he didn't grieve.
A victor in battle, freed from the tie:[1]
He's what I call
a brahman.

[Anonymous No.22442741]

Okay do you have anything interesting to say or are you just going to post a random Hinayana sutta?

[Anonymous No.22442752]

It's actually a great example of how the Mahayana is greater than the Hinayana. The early disciples could not understand the greatness of an all-encompassing teaching, a teaching with profound, cosmological impact. Instead, they have to be taught in a way that does not have boundless compassion and is instead focussed on discipline.

[Anonymous No.22442753]

>>22442741
>Hinayana
>Insulting your own agamas

Why are pure Landers like this? Don't you have some mantra to chant or something?

[Anonymous No.22442758]

>>22442752
>Nooooo the teachings of the Buddha aren't real, this convuloted Chinese text about a sky Buddha who will save all souls even though there are no souls if you just pray hard enough is the true Buddhism
>Why yes it was rescued from the Naga realm 2000 years after the Buddha's life so what? That doesn't compromise it's Authenticity

[Anonymous No.22442765]

>>22442728
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC1QoOWjQvM&ab_channel=HillsideHermitage

[Anonymous No.22442767]

>>22442753
Two choices:

Follow a lesser teaching which takes a huge amount of effort which allows me to only save myself

Follow a great teaching which allows me to save countless beings

Not a hard choice anon

>>22442758
The Mahayana sutras originated in India. Pure Land sutras have been found dating back to 100BC in Pakistan. Mahayana is not a Chinese teaching

[Anonymous No.22442774]

>Hinayana
western larpers always turn everything into protestantism and transplant their dogmatic sectarian strife to unrelated cultural contexts
the three vehicles have the same goal and all three work. There isn't a schism, quit larping

[Anonymous No.22442776]

>>22442767
Buddha never taught that all beings would be saved and instead taught that beings aren't really real . So good luck with that.

[Anonymous No.22442780]

>>22442774
I understand why Theravadans would take issue with Mahayana

But I have no idea why Mahayanists seethe so much at Theravada

[Anonymous No.22442788]

>>22442774
You haven't done any reading at all if you think that sectarianism did not exist until western times

> What does he rely on? Why does he rely on it? How does he rely on it? What Vasubandhu relies on is the sutras. He relies on them because what the Tathagata [taught in the sutras] is the manifestation of true and real virtues. As to how he relies on them, he does so by being in accord with them through practicing the five gates of mindfulness… Sutras refers to the direct teaching among the twelve divisions of scripture; in addition to the Four Agamas or the Tripitaka, the Mahayana scriptures are also called “sutra.” The words relying on the sutras refer to Mahayana sutras not included in the Tripitaka; **they are not the Agamas.**

>>22442776
He literally did teach a way for all beings to save in the Pure Land sutras. He also did not teach that "beings aren't really real". That's a misunderstanding of anatta

>>22442780
Theravadins claim that the Buddha prophesied that a false teaching would come along. I've gotten death threats from Theravadins for this reason, since they wage a so-called "holy war" against Mahayana

[Anonymous No.22442794]

Also the reason to "seethe" at the Theravada (where "seethe" is a word that actually just means "criticise"), because Theravada is hugely dominant in the western push for Buddhism due to British colonialism and aggressive secularisation!

[Anonymous No.22442823]

>>22442794
Theravada isn't more "hugely dominant" than Zen, except maybe in the secular mindfulness community because Vipassana is easier to secularize

[Anonymous No.22442825]

>>22442823
Zentards refuse to even read a single sutra. Hardly a better situation

[Anonymous No.22442830]

>>22442794
>>22442788
Mahayana through zen and Tibetan is the primary type of Buddhism in the west

Theravada is the closest we have to Early Buddhism. It's not perfect but it's better than rejecting early Buddhism for fan fiction

I'm not confusing anatta. Read the kaccanagotta sutta or even mmk. There is no reason to sacrifice your liberation for mental fixations like beings

[Anonymous No.22442838]

>>22442830
Early Buddhism is not "fan fiction", it's just the equivalent of sticking with revising your time tables when we could be learning calculus

It's okay if you are so full of delusion that a bodhisattva has been unable to reach you. Maybe in another life :)

[Anonymous No.22442843]

leaving your wife and son is sigma grindset

[Anonymous No.22442846]

>>22442838
Purelanders are tapped in the head

[Anonymous No.22442850]

>>22442846
How so? Are you saying you reject the Mahayana? If not, why not just accept the Pure Land? Not everyone has the karma to accept it, since they are too attached to their own willpower and think they need to "do things".

Just say the name. Just say the name and accept it. Just say the name.

[Anonymous No.22442856]

>>22442850
I don't even fully reject Mahayana. They have some interesting ideas like Madhyamaka is early Buddhism imo because it's all based on commentaries of the suttas and reflects the Atthakavagga

But pureland or even just standard Mahayana are too far removed from the original teachings

[Anonymous No.22442865]

>>22442856
So yes, you reject the Mahayana. Even Nagarjuna was heavily in favour of the Pure Land:

> There are innumerable modes of entry into the Buddha's teaching. Just as there are in the world difficult and easy paths - travelling on foot by land is full of hardship and travelling in a boat by sea is pleasant - so it is among the paths of the bodhisattvas. Some exert themselves diligently, while others quickly enter Non-retrogression by the easy practice based on faith.

https://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/Nagarjuna_easypractice.html

You enjoy MMK and yet you doubt Bodhisattva Nagarjuna's words

[Anonymous No.22442915]

>>22442865
Later additions

[Anonymous No.22442923]

>>22442915
I mean, yeah, they are higher level teachings that were revealed later

Your attitude is much more protestant than anything about sectarianism. Earlier does not mean better when it comes to Buddhism.

The Buddha in the agamas even outlined specific guidelines by which one can decide what is and isn't legitimate Dharma. Something that you personally will find shockingly absent is the metric of "earliness"

[Anonymous No.22442941]

>>22442923
It's very obvious that in both Mahayana and Theravada traditions there have been embellishments to the original agamas/nikaya.

In Theravada there is the abhidhamma which is likely not authentically rooted to the Buddha
In Mahayana there are the mahayana Sutras which are likely not authentically rooted to the Buddha

[Anonymous No.22442951]

>>22442941
> It's very obvious that in both Mahayana and Theravada traditions there have been embellishments to the original agamas/nikaya.

I mean yes, obviously? That's the whole point of the Mahayana. They are all extra texts

> In Theravada there is the abhidhamma which is likely not authentically rooted to the Buddha

False. He gave the Abidhamma to his mother by bringing her up to Tushita heaven and preaching it to her there

> In Mahayana there are the mahayana Sutras which are likely not authentically rooted to the Buddha

False again. The Buddha speaks in most of them and anyway they are all manifestations of the Dharmakaya i.e. the Buddha's universal Teaching Body

[Anonymous No.22442981]

>"buddhist" chantards
okay
Doesn't even browsing 4chin break half the precepts of the "Noble Eightfold Path"?

sorry. I cannot and will not take you charlatans seriously.

[Anonymous No.22442982]

>>22442728
The Mahayana vs Theravada arguing is goofy
Certainly, the historical Buddha, as far as we know, did not teach Mahayana (and also did not teach all the Theravada commentarial additions, abhidhamma, etc)
But regardless, both traditions are a mixed bag, and both traditions have doubtlessly produced Āryas
The presentation and narrative around what happens after Nirvana (defined as the extinction of the affliction) differs, but everything up to that point is the same
The essence of both paths is the same - the direct gnosis of dependent arising, anatman, āryan insight (emptiness free from extremes a la MMK and kaccayanagotta sutta)
And then the full actualization of this āryan gnosis from stream-entry (or first bhūmi) all the way to full nirvana, extinction of the afflictions and freedom from suffering.

[Anonymous No.22442984]

>>22442981
lol fr, this is the reason to not follow the Theravada. None of us have the discipline required to actually attain enlightenment through the Theravada, but the easy path is easy, so let's take the easy path

>>22442982
What does the "historical Buddha" have to do with anything? You treat him like some kind of walking human God. Really weird.

[Anonymous No.22443002]

>>22442984
no "fr" this is some reddit-tier spiritual-tourism bullshit where you cherry-pick esoteric nonsense to project the idea that you have spiritual depth to others. ongod bruh

[Anonymous No.22443006]

>>22443002
Mahayana is literally the most accessible, exoteric, and popular school in the world but ok pal, gatekeep if you want ;)

[Anonymous No.22443009]

>>22442984
It’s just that a lot of these arguments seem to endlessly revolve around what the historical Buddha taught or didn’t teach.
I’m trying to be ecumenical here.
The essence of what he taught is the full actualization (all the way to Nirvana) of āryan gnosis (of anatman, dependent origination, emptiness free from extremes) and this gnosis has clearly been attained and fully actualized by card-carrying ‘Theravadins’ and ‘Mahayanis’ alike.
And there are many Theravadins and Mahayanis who certainly likewise never attained the path, and remained unawakened commoners to their death.
So being on the right sectarian team won’t free anyone from suffering, rather actualizing the teachings for oneself is what will do it - and this is clearly possible in both Theravada and Mahayana contexts imo. So I suppose the arguing is a bit silly.

[Anonymous No.22443011]

Friendly reminder that Pure Land Buddhism is the most popular form of Buddhism in the world

[Anonymous No.22443023]

>>22443009
> It’s just that a lot of these arguments seem to endlessly revolve around what the historical Buddha taught or didn’t teach.
I agree, which is weird, because it doesn't matter, since even in the early texts the Buddha did not set that as a benchmark for deciding between true and false teachings

> The essence of what he taught is the full actualization (all the way to Nirvana) of āryan gnosis (of anatman, dependent origination, emptiness free from extremes) and this gnosis has clearly been attained and fully actualized by card-carrying ‘Theravadins’ and ‘Mahayanis’ alike.
Let's let the sutras and our ordained teachers speak for themselves rather than coming up with our own interpretation

> And there are many Theravadins and Mahayanis who certainly likewise never attained the path, and remained unawakened commoners to their death.
The former yes but not really of the latter, since if they recite the nembutsu then just before death Amida comes to save them

> So being on the right sectarian team won’t free anyone from suffering, rather actualizing the teachings for oneself is what will do it - and this is clearly possible in both Theravada and Mahayana contexts imo. So I suppose the arguing is a bit silly.
I'm simply telling others which path will allow us to save more people. If I can convince someone to recite the nembutsu, that's one more person saved. Theravada can only ever save one person at a time

[Anonymous No.22443039]

>>22443023
Is it not true that the entire purpose of going to Amida’s Pure Land - is that the Pure Land contains the ideal conditions for actualizing awakening and attaining to Mahayana’s non-abiding Nirvana and Samyaksambuddhahood (which automatically necessitates attaining the first Bhūmi, becoming an Āryabodhisattva, and then actualizing the path until it is complete)?

[Anonymous No.22443061]

>>22443023
>>22443039
The point being that this:
>The essence of what he taught is the full actualization (all the way to Nirvana) of āryan gnosis (of anatman, dependent origination, emptiness free from extremes)
Remains true even for Pure Land
Pure Landers just expect to do this in the next life, in Amitabha’s Pure Land, rather than in this very life (unlike other kinds of Mahayanis and Theravadins)

[Anonymous No.22443085]

>>22442850
>Just say the name.
>Amida will save you.. but only if you believe that he can save you
>Jesus will save you.. but only if you believe that he can save you
Why do two completely unrelated religions place the same arbitrary restriction on the power of their infinitely compassionate superheros to save beings?

[Anonymous No.22443138]

>>22443085
Why not?

[Anonymous No.22443156]

>>22443085
Humans gonna human

[Anonymous No.22443664]

>>22442753
Hinayana isn't an insult, it's an objective description. Hinayana does not have the goal of becoming a Buddha to liberate all sentient beings from samsara, it only aims for self liberation, so it has a lesser scope than the Mahayana. It is still a valid Buddhist vehicle for people with the karmic affinity for that path.

[Anonymous No.22443725]

>>22442774
Mahayana sutras proclaim themselves superior to Hinayana sutras. Vajrayana tantras proclaim themselves superior to the Mahayana sutras. Dzogchen tantras proclaim themselves superior to the Vajrayana tantras. The lower vehicles consider the higher noncanonical. You can find many lineage holders of these traditions upholding the assertions of their texts of their superiority. Triumphalism of your chosen yana is part of Buddhist tradition.

[Anonymous No.22443756]

>>22442850
Reciting a Buddha's name is still too much effort

[Anonymous No.22443778]

Why should it matter whether or not the historical Shakyamuni Buddha taught a sutra if its methods are effective?

[Anonymous No.22443802]

>>22443039
They also sit in a lotus bud for five hundred before they actually get into the Pure Land

[Anonymous No.22443807]

Brown religions all feed into narcissism

[Anonymous No.22443811]

>>22443802
*Five hundred years
>Source: Three Pure Land Sutras, BDK, p. 59

[Anonymous No.22443938]

>>22443664
Wrong. Common Mahayana slander.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_points_unifying_Theravāda_and_Mahāyāna
>There are three ways of attaining bodhi or Enlightenment: namely as a disciple (śrāvaka), as a pratyekabuddha and as a samyaksambuddha (perfectly and fully enlightened Buddha). We accept it as the highest, noblest, and most heroic to follow the career of a Bodhisattva and to become a samyaksambuddha in order to save others.

[Anonymous No.22443974]

>>22443085
Because the same basic memes are found in both. The world is sinful and wicked, and more importantly too far gone. It's only because of a divine figure's infinite love that we can hope to jump out of our reality and into another. Any religion that holds to that doctrine will end up looking like Pure Land Buddhism and Calvinism.

[Anonymous No.22444021]

>>22442728
I have met one or two people that had something of these qualities. The effect was obvious, people flocked to them.

[Anonymous No.22444091]

>>22442728
lol I actually printed this same Sutra (and translated it to portuguese myself) and showed it to my parents, my mother didn't like it a first untill I mentioned the paralels with what jesus also said

[Anonymous No.22444798]

>>22443664
Sounds like a trick from Mara to stop Amy ever becoming a fully enlightened arahant like the Buddha


Namo Tassa Bhagavato ARAHATO Samma Sambuddhasa

[Anonymous No.22444813]

>>22442728
And then the Venerable Cletus walked away from the trailer park on one morning, picked up his trucker hat and spat out his snuff. His baby momma approached the Sangha with an alimony order from the judge. The venerable Cletus proceeded to ignore the door and the court order along with tax evasion.
The baby momma then went to her other baby daddy, the Venerable Tyrone.
With his magical negro eye, the Venerable Tyrone smiled upon Cletus.

[Anonymous No.22444821]

>>22443807
Im not self absorbed! There is no self! Ha! Checkmate!
Now for my absorption meditation!
This is so much better than that sacred cow flowery words

[Anonymous No.22444826]

>>22443011
The similarities of Mahayana Buddhism and Christianity are uncanny

[Anonymous No.22444838]

>>22442728
I use Buddhism as an excuse to hang around brown pipo who look like my ex wife. Smart like her. Teachin me like her. Its nice. I would not recommend it to others I am simply enjoying it. I told one of the monks and he was disturbed. He thought it was gay. Nigga you look like my son.

[Anonymous No.22444844]

>>22444091
What of Jesus are you thinking of? He who does not hate his father and so on?

[Anonymous No.22444853]

>>22444838
I am still in love with her and am the opposite of this sutta

[Anonymous No.22444856]

>>22444844
I did not come to bring peace but a sword
Let the dead bury their dead
Sell your cloak and follow me

[Anonymous No.22444866]

https://youtu.be/sF5RgXBTxf8?si=OF67FORC36OK3iQ5

[Anonymous No.22444869]

Buddhism is a death cult

[Anonymous No.22444895]

>>22444869
the literal fucking endocrine disruptors and red 40 and xenestrogen and gay cancer onions aids in your blood vessels as you take another sip of mcdonalds sprite and become mysteriously depressed
>buddhism is a death cult

[Anonymous No.22444896]

>>22444798
The goal of the Mahayana is not to become an arhat but to become a Buddha

>>22443974
Buddhism does not say the world is sinful and wicked and if you want to become enlightened by your own power you can certainly do that (eg via Zen)

>>22443938
That literally says the same thing that he said

[Anonymous No.22444919]

>>22444896
>>Buddhism does not say the world is sinful and wicked and if you want to become enlightened by your own power you can certainly do that (eg via Zen)
zen can't get you englithened and is not the teaching of the buddha
>>22444896
>>The goal of the Mahayana is not to become an arhat but to become a Buddha
all buddhas are arhats anyway and they have the same supramundane knowledge and have the same liberation

[Anonymous No.22444924]

>>22444919
>they have
i mean buddhas and arhats

[Anonymous No.22444942]

>>22444919
If you doubt the Mahayana that’s not really my problem. You are only ready for the smaller teaching

[Anonymous No.22444969]

>>22442923
>>I mean, yeah, they are higher level teachings that were revealed later
They were not revealed at all, however they are indeed late, and complete bogus.

[Anonymous No.22444973]

>>22444969
Cope

[Anonymous No.22444976]

>>22443009
>this gnosis has clearly been attained and fully actualized by card-carrying ‘Theravadins’ and ‘Mahayanis’ alike.
That's false even by mahayanists since they claim the initial teaching of both this goal of gnosis and the method were lies.

[Anonymous No.22444980]

>>22444896
Buddha was an arahant thoughever
They aren't mutually exclusive

[Anonymous No.22444981]

>>22444942

This is a mistake. Mahayana texts are generally intended for people with little capacity for understanding, or for people who do not have much ethical capacity.

One of the recurring themes, for example, is the idea of "the end of the law", in which people would not even be able to follow the precepts. Thus, the texts offer easier and more available practices for these people.

The hearers' vehicle would be more suited to those who have wisdom inclinations, greater personal abilities, etc.

This is why Mahayanists often have lay people teaching them, as is the case with the Vimalakirti Sutra and the Perfect Wisdom Sutra.
Including lay people who can't stop being awful, full of lust and hatred, in order to kill Buddhism from the inside.

[Anonymous No.22444987]

>>22444981
Being a Buddha is greater than being only an arhat, therefore the Mahayana is a greater teaching

[Anonymous No.22444991]

>>22444987
Mahayana doesnt lead to buddhahood though. And the buddha is an arhat and claimed it's the goal of the holy life.

[Anonymous No.22444993]

>>22444991
Mahayana does lead to Buddhahood, but again if you can’t accept that it’s okay to stick with the lesser teaching and only aim for arhat

[Anonymous No.22445001]

>>22444993
At best it's the teaching of the buddha which leads to buddhahood an the buddha didn't teach mahayana.
And according to the buddha, you know the one you love and respect to much, the goal of the holy life is to be an arhat and not a buddha. How does that make you feel?

[Anonymous No.22445003]

Many Theravada bhikkus believe that Mara himself authored Mahayana Sutras to prevent anyone from ever becoming enlightened because putting off your Nirvana so that everyone can be enlightened is plain crazy.

[Anonymous No.22445008]

>>22445003
Why is that crazy? It’s crazy to be compassionate?

[Anonymous No.22445010]

>>22445001
The Buddha did teach the Mahayana though. He literally speaks in most of the Mahayana texts lmao

[Anonymous No.22445018]

>>22444987
>>22444991
>>22444993
Buddha was an arhatta.

Buddhas are Arahants who teach the complete Dhamma to their Sangha
Paccecabuddhas are arahants who independently achieve Nirvana but do not leave a Sangha because they don't teach

An arahant like Sariputta is neither because he didn't independently become enlightened (he did through the guidance of Buddha) but he also doesn't dispense a renewed Dharma to a renewed Sangha

[Anonymous No.22445023]

>>22445008
There is 0 guarantee all beings will be liberated. There is no future. There are no beings. So why postpone Nirvana for shadows?

[Anonymous No.22445027]

>>22445023
Why do you cling to the idea of you being a being that can be liberated then? The Mahayana teaches prajnaparamita, emptiness of all dharmas. The diamond sutra tells us there are no beings to save. Therefore it makes it possible to liberate all beings from suffering

Why am I not surprised you don’t understand basic Mahayana though?

[Anonymous No.22445029]

>>22442767
This poster is an excellent example of how the average person is an idiot.
The average person does not genuinely search for Truth. The average person instead chooses to believe in what they WANT to believe in. Oh, this religion lets me be my own god? This religion lets me get magic powers? This religion lets me not have to do anything? And so they'll choose that one.
Reality is reality whether you like it or not. Thinking that one religion is 'better' doesn't make it true.
Also Buddhism is gay and literally demonic. Demons are literally real (4th or higher dimensional beings) and all pagay religions have been made / influenced by demons

[Anonymous No.22445031]

>>22445029
The Mahayana sutras are true though

[Anonymous No.22445032]

>>22445027
I don't cling to any views. Read the Atthakavagga.

Even Arya Nagarjuna says sunyata wrongly grasped is like grabbing a snake

[Anonymous No.22445035]

>>22442728
Buddhism is the complete opposite of a grindset

[Anonymous No.22445037]

>>22445032
And neither does the Mahayana teach to cling to the view of a being

[Anonymous No.22445039]

>>22445032
Also, I highly doubt you have eradicated your clinging to views

[Anonymous No.22445046]

>>22445039
I haven't but I know that obvious contenders for views like the view that Nirvana is contingent on 'beings' at some point in the 'future' being 'saved' definitely reeks of Mara.
>>22445037
Why do you cling to being then? You literally cling to being and avoid remainderless cessation until some impossible condition is met.

[Anonymous No.22445053]

>>22445046
The diamond sutra literally tells us there are no beings to save, however I am just a moron. I don’t have any insight and I will never understand no self or emptiness in this life. I have strong attachments to various views, such as wanting to save all beings based on my vow: “sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them”. I want to do this, so I will rely on Amida’s Primal Vow

[Anonymous No.22445062]

>>22445053
>Literally infinite beings
Ie it's logically impossible for them to be all saved by the definition of numberless

So if you hinge your liberation on that you're destined to infinitely go on in samsara. This view is very Mara-like, a nice sounded diversion intended to prevent Nirvana

[Anonymous No.22445065]

>>22445062
I really don’t care about nirvana

[Anonymous No.22445072]

>>22445065
Then what's the point of the Bodhisattva vow?

You are putting off your Nirvana until all beings are beings are Nirvana'd but you don't care about Nirvana?

[Anonymous No.22445093]

>>22445072
To liberate all sentient beings. It’s not that complicated

[Anonymous No.22445102]

>>22445093
>I don't care about Nirvana
>But I do want to assist infinite beings in achieving it
>Except for myself

Mara has done a number on you

[Anonymous No.22445109]

>>22442728
So, should I abandon my wife and child too. I am being serious. I have come to a realisation that my love and desire for them is also the cause of my suffering.

[Anonymous No.22445110]

>>22445102
I really don't care what you think of my path or whether it makes sense to you

>>22445109
100% yes

[Anonymous No.22445112]

>>22445109
If you're willing to become a monk the Buddhist answer is yes

If not probably not

[Anonymous No.22445117]

Yes only if you ordain. Don't try and do it without ordaining. If you can't ordain then the Theravada answer is that you should aim for stream entry and do good karma for a better rebirth. The Mahayana answer is obviously very different

[Anonymous No.22445125]

>>22445110
>>22445112
Thanks. Is there a proper way to become a buddhist monk in USA? I do have the means to travel to other countries and live there too, though.

[Anonymous No.22445126]

>>22445125
You should ask a US-based Theravada monastic

[Anonymous No.22445132]

it's really weird how people in mahayana cling to their narrative they are better than buddhism

[Anonymous No.22445133]

>>22445132
Mahayana is Buddhism, so how can it be better than Buddhism?

[Anonymous No.22445139]

>>22445110
>I really don't care what you think of my path or whether it makes sense to you

>Path shown to be incoherent on two counts (the illogic of expecting infinite suffering beings to undergo a future liberation and the illogic of not being concerned with Nirvana unless it concerns infinite beings)
>Still attached to it
It's over:
Wrong view
Delusion
Mara's plaything

[Anonymous No.22445141]

>>22445139
¯\_(⊙_ʖ⊙)_/¯

[Anonymous No.22445149]

>>22442825
>Zentards refuse to even read a single sutra. Hardly a better situation
That's because they're too busy becoming enlightened through the spiritual awakening of fighting in wars rather than reading books for nerds. You know, what Buddhism is actually about.

[Anonymous No.22445238]

>>22444813
Yasodhara and Rahula both ordained and became arhats

[Anonymous No.22445250]

>>22445003
The goal of Mahayana is to become a complete Buddha as quickly as possible to benefit sentient beings. How would remaining in delusion in samsara benefit anyone?

[Anonymous No.22445255]

>>22445250
It's also just a myth that in Mahayana we put off nirvana. The arhat nirvana is false and prior to the bodhisattva awakening already. The Lotus sutra details how arhats are actually able to be pulled out of their lesser nirvana and brought to full buddhahood

[Anonymous No.22445274]

Mahayanists fail to understand dependent origination. For instance it's impossible to even ''put off nirvana''.
Non enlightened people always want spirituality to be about the will, but it's not. dependent origination is about conditions and once conditions are meant for nirvana, nirvana cannot be prevented nor delayed.

[Anonymous No.22445280]

So for instance a stream winner is bound to final extinction, even he doesn't want it.

>>22445255
>The Lotus sutra details how arhats are actually able to be pulled out of their lesser nirvana and brought to full buddhahood
that's impossible since arhats are extinguished completely, they cannot be grasped nor found, as per the teaching of the buddha.

[Anonymous No.22445295]

Directly encounter one's state
Decide upon one thing
Maintain the confidence of liberation
Simple as

[Anonymous No.22445302]

>>22445295
Deciding and maintaining confidence has nothing to do with liberation. Liberation is about meeting the conditions of liberation, nothing else.

[Anonymous No.22445303]

>>22445280
> that's impossible since arhats are extinguished completely, they cannot be grasped nor found, as per the teaching of the buddha.
As the Lotus sutra explains, he was not being completely truthful in those original teachings, but was instead using skilful means (upaya) to teach them the best he could at the time

>>22445274
> For instance it's impossible to even ''put off nirvana''.
Exactly, that's why it's a Theravada myth that in the Mahayana we "put off nirvana"

> dependent origination is about conditions and once conditions are meant for nirvana, nirvana cannot be prevented nor delayed.
Read the agamas again. Nirvana is unconditioned, it doesn't arise due to dependent origination

>>22445302
Deciding and maintaining confidence are conditions for liberation

[Anonymous No.22445370]

>>22445303
>>As the Lotus sutra explains, he was not being completely truthful in those original teachings, but was instead using skilful means (upaya) to teach them the best he could at the time
not the teaching of the buddha though

>>22445303
>>Read the agamas again. Nirvana is unconditioned, it doesn't arise due to dependent origination
read the suttas gain, niravna doesn't arise because a bodhisattva wants it and nirvana can't be put off because a bodhisattva wants it

>>22445303
>>Deciding and maintaining confidence are conditions for liberation
not the teaching of the buddha though

[Anonymous No.22445380]

>>22445109
>So, should I abandon my wife and child too.
Do you believe in higher realms and rebirth?
Do you believe in all the miraculous, magical and mystical that buddhism also encompasses?
If so, and only if you are truly being honest with yourself, would I advise to do so.
If not try honing skepticism in your life and question all, it's a strong foundation to build from.
Beware hyper-skepticism because it leads to extreme uncertainty and so to extreme dissolution and uncomfort.

[Anonymous No.22445405]

>>22445370
> not the teaching of the buddha though
Yes it is

> read the suttas gain, niravna doesn't arise because a bodhisattva wants it and nirvana can't be put off because a bodhisattva wants it
No one claimed that. That would also be a condition

> not the teaching of the buddha though
Yes it is

>>22445380
Why wouldn't he?

[Anonymous No.22445408]

>>22445250
Don't the Bodhisattvas like avalokitesvara put off their Buddhahood until everyone is saved?

[Anonymous No.22445411]

>>22445408
No

[Anonymous No.22445418]

>>22445405
>>Yes it is
It's not, it's only the teaching of the mahayanists

[Anonymous No.22445420]

>>22445418
The Buddha was a Mahayanist, he taught the greater vehicle, that's why he's speaking in the sutras

[Anonymous No.22445425]

>>22445420
>>The Buddha was a Mahayanist
That's the claim only by the mahayanists though

[Anonymous No.22445426]

>>22445425
And the opposing claim is only made by those opposed to the Mahayana, so what?

[Anonymous No.22445428]

>>22445426
the opposite claim is made by buddhists in general

[Anonymous No.22445430]

>>22445428
No it isn't. Those who follow the Mahayana and Vajrayana are subsets of "Buddhists in general" and they obviously don't make the claim that the Mahayana sutras are fake since they both follow them.

The only ones who would claim that the Mahayana sutras are not truly the Dharma are some subset of Theravada Buddhists, and Theravada Buddhists are already a minority of all Buddhists (most Buddhists follow the Mahayana)

[Anonymous No.22445442]

>>22445430
>Vajrayana
Vajrayana is a subset of Mahayana.
And plenty of buddhists didn't embrace mahayana, even the mahayana texts say that, just by their narrative of the lie about the teaching in the suttas.

Also, even per mahayana texts, there is no indication the buddha is not lying there, ie the buddha may be lying in the mahayana and so it's possible the truth may be in fact the teaching in the suttas.

[Anonymous No.22445446]

>>22445411
>>22445408
Yeah they made up 3 types of boddhisatvas:
King-like bodhicitta – To aspire to become a Buddha first in order to then help sentient beings.
Boatman-like bodhicitta – To aspire to become a Buddha at the same time as other sentient beings.
Shepherd-like bodhicitta – To aspire to become a Buddha only after all other sentient beings have done so.

[Anonymous No.22445447]

>>22445442
> Vajrayana is a subset of Mahayana.
Not really, Vajrayana is a continuation of the Mahayana with extra powerful teachings that allow the attainment of Buddhahood much more quickly

> And plenty of buddhists didn't embrace mahayana, even the mahayana texts say that, just by their narrative of the lie about the teaching in the suttas.
Plenty of Buddhists didn't but now it is the majority

> Also, even per mahayana texts, there is no indication the buddha is not lying there, ie the buddha may be lying in the mahayana and so it's possible the truth may be in fact the teaching in the suttas.
And? That's why we follow the path and see if it works as per the kalama sutta

[Anonymous No.22445450]

>>22445447
>Vajrayana
Vajrayana is a subset of mahayana, the goal is the same, only the method changes

[Anonymous No.22445451]

>>22445447
>>And? That's why we follow the path and see if it works as per the kalama sutta
kalama sutta is a lie as per the mahayana narrative

[Anonymous No.22445455]

>>22445451
The Mahayana does not say that the agamas are lies, just that they are incomplete. Everything in the agamas is a true teaching of the Buddha

>>22445450
Okay, and? Are you just trying to be annoying?

A subset can be a subset of another subset anyway

[Anonymous No.22445458]

>>22445455
again the kalama sutta is part of the hearer collection and per the mahayana narrative it's incomplete and doesn't offer a method leading to full enlightenment

[Anonymous No.22445460]

>>22445458
And? That doesn't mean it's useless. The Mahayana does not exclude the sravaka teachings. You are just making things up because you can't stand not being in an argument

[Anonymous No.22445470]

>>22445460
>The Mahayana does not exclude the sravaka teachings
it doesn't exclude it just says it's not the path to full enlightenment, so according to mahayana relying on those suttas for full enlightenment is a mistake, and in practice even mahayana people don't follow the suttas.

>>22445460
>You are just making things up because you can't stand not being in an argument
so far you are the one not dealing well with your love for mahayana not being justified by any buddhist text nor practice.

[Anonymous No.22445473]

>>22445470
Mahayana is justified by the Mahayana texts, just like the Theravada is justified by the Theravada texts. Not every path has to work for every person. Just because you have found the path that works for you doesn't mean that all other paths are wrong

[Anonymous No.22445479]

>>22445473
>Not every path has to work for every person
Again that's only the mahayana narrative precisely because they didn't like what they read in the suttas.

[Anonymous No.22445480]

>>22445479
Don't follow it then ¯\_(⊙_ʖ⊙)_/¯

[Anonymous No.22445482]

>>22445480
Don't claim to be a buddhist then.

[Anonymous No.22445485]

>>22445482
If you don't want me to be called a Buddhist then you can choose to say I'm not a Buddhist and you can even tell other people I'm a fake Buddhist if you like. That really has no relevance to me

[Anonymous No.22445489]

>>22445485
it's not my fault if you don't like it when you are told that what you follow really isn't the buddha's teaching, after you claimed that you follow the buddha's teaching.

[Anonymous No.22445493]

>>22445489
> it's not my fault if you don't like it
As I just said, I don't mind it

[Anonymous No.22445524]

>>22445405
>Why wouldn't he?
Commitment to an ascetic life is very profound and hard. Turning back would be very precarious and might sever any connection to his family for good if he fails to tread this path, both towards and back.

[Anonymous No.22445546]

>>22445489
The Mahayana are the Buddha's teachings.

[Anonymous No.22445872]

TheraCHADa bros we just keep winning

[Anonymous No.22445877]

>>22445872
Being on this website instantly disqualifies you from being a Theravadan.

[Anonymous No.22445896]

>>22445877
Which precept says to refrain from using 4chan, sweaty?

[Anonymous No.22445904]

>“Saved by the inconceivable working of Amida’s Vow, I shall realize birth in the Pure Land”: the moment you entrust yourself thus to the Vow, so that the mind set upon saying the nembutsu arises within you, you are immediately brought to share in the benefit of being grasped by Amida, never to be abandoned.
>Know that the Primal Vow of Amida makes no distinction between people young and old, good and evil; only shinjin is essential. For it is the Vow to save the person whose karmic evil is deep and grave and whose blind passions abound.
>Thus, for those who entrust themselves to the Primal Vow, no good acts are required, because no good surpasses the nembutsu. Nor need they despair of the evil they commit, for no evil can obstruct the working of Amida’s Primal Vow.

[Anonymous No.22445908]

>>22445896
Precepts 4, 5, and 7

[Anonymous No.22445935]

>>22445877
Friendly reminder that you don't have to follow the precepts to "be a Theravadan"

[Anonymous No.22445937]

Yeah even Jains have precepts and they are compatible with pretty much any religion, atheism included.

[Anonymous No.22445945]

>>22445937
Non-violence is a dumb ass precept though. It makes sense that Buddhism dropped it

[Anonymous No.22445955]

>>22445945
It's literally the first precept though... it's just not as extreme as it limits itself to sentient beings that are killed intentionally, since its the intentions around the action which corrupts the mind, not the action itself.

[Anonymous No.22445971]

>>22445955
Yeah and that's an important difference. Jains used to walk around with special shoes and masks on that prevented them from stepping on or swallowing bugs. That's not spiritually relevant

Buddhists don't practise non-violence, they still practise unintentional violence

[Anonymous No.22445998]

>>22445908
>False speech
What did I say that was false?
>Intoxication
What intoxicatant did I imbibe
>7th
Upasakas would only take the full 8 on the poya days

[Anonymous No.22446003]

>>22445935
You just have to take refuge in the triple gem

[Anonymous No.22446038]

>>22444895
>smack mosquito
> -10 KARMA
Gay

[Anonymous No.22446069]

>>22445029
>this religion
This "religion" prefers to be called a philosophy.
T. Been to Temples Vihara Shanghas.

[Anonymous No.22446071]

>>22446038
Islam is the truth

[Anonymous No.22446078]

>>22446071
>smacks woman
>+10 halaal
Based

[Anonymous No.22446093]

>>22445238
How did wandering ascetics pay for that?

[Anonymous No.22446209]

>>22446069
>miracles, demons and magical realms exist
>all based on faith/belief
At its core it’s a religion

[Anonymous No.22446277]

>>22445473
>all paths are heckin valid
Go back, and take your low IQ relativism with you.

[Anonymous No.22446280]

>>22446277
The Lotus sutra teaches the Ekayana which means all the paths lead to Buddhahood anyway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekayāna

[Anonymous No.22446346]

>>22446280
If that is true then the buddha would have said so in the buddhist suttas beforehand.

[Anonymous No.22446611]

>>22445302
So Buddhahood is conditioned? Then how is it not impermanent?

[Anonymous No.22446641]

>>22445109
>I have come to a realisation that my love and desire for them is also the cause of my suffering.
How? Do you think it necessarily has to? Monasticism isn't the only path. Do you currently have a Buddhist practice?

[Anonymous No.22446648]

>>22446093
The Buddha was royalty, his family was rich

[Anonymous No.22446657]

>>22445109
Yes, but only if you're certain your wife and child will be fine (i.e won't starve to death) without you. Be aware that becoming a monk does not absolve from the work you have to do, it just makes it a lot easier because you're in a conducive environment.

[Anonymous No.22446666]

Posting this again since it got ignored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_points_unifying_Theravāda_and_Mahāyāna
>We accept it as the highest, noblest, and most heroic to follow the career of a Bodhisattva and to become a samyaksambuddha in order to save others.

BOTH Mahayana and Theravada believe that the highest path is to become a Bodhisattva. Not an arhat. This was agreeed on at a large inter-denominational Buddhist council.

[Anonymous No.22446685]

>>22446657
>it just makes it a lot easier because you're in a conducive environment
Is it?

[Anonymous No.22446691]

>>22446666
Yeah, Theravadins just believe you have to be in the presence of a living Buddha to enter the bodhisattvayana, so they think it's impossible to practice now

[Anonymous No.22446701]

>>22446685
It depends on the sangha, of course, but even trivial things like keeping the precepts becomes much easier when you are surrounded by likeminded people and are separated from the world. Sense restraint is much easier to achieve when your senses aren't constantly bombarded by stimulation. You live with much fewer responsibilities so there is less to occupy the mind. You never again have to worry about money since you're not allowed to handle it. And with money about 90% of your other worries disappear as well. It's also much easier to achieve the kind solitude necessary for right samadhi practice (which is about withdrawal from sensuality more than any kind of method). It truly is a blessed existence.

[Anonymous No.22446723]

>>22444826
Its the form of religion that speaks to most of people

[Anonymous No.22446733]

>>22443085
I don't remember where I read it, but Amida and pure land school might have some links to middle east, and zoroastrianism particularly. So it might be influence from zoroastrianism.

[Anonymous No.22447930]

It seems what's needed is a mutual recognition of validity and that can be established by finding where the agreements lie with each other's doctrines and constructing bridges out of them for other knowledge seekers to be able to better discern things for themselves.

[Anonymous No.22447944]

>>22444826
Buddhism is just inherently similar to Christianity in being a more ascetic self-denying current than more ritualistic devotional ones.

[Anonymous No.22448002]

>>22446733
Christianity nominally fended off gnosticism/manichaeism (a Persian influence) but in reality kept the idea that the world should be shunned as sinful so there is that. The pure land of Amida, where one prays for rebirth into, where there is no worldly suffering and only pleasant support for the practice of dharma is also the "western paradise," and the relevant sutras introduced to China came from monks who originated from India's western cultural frontier with Persia. Given the extensive and enduring Buddhist practice of baptizing local gods and practices into itself as a conversion/acculturation tactic it seems very plausible for a Persian genealogy to the most devotional Mahayanist practices, though not in the same way Christianity absorbed (Greco-)Persian thought. In a sense Amida is a benevolent demiurge (any buddha-land essentially is like this, not just Amida's), and on the Christian side there is no demiurge per se as the highest (and only) God created both heaven AND earth with no intermediaries. However, since one is meant to renounce the earth for heaven there is that trace of manichaeism, resolved insofar as man is now evil instead of the creator.

[Anonymous No.22448204]

>>22446691
>>22446666
This council is a joke and made in the 20th century lol

[Anonymous No.22448238]

>*ahem*
>"Buddhism you say?"

[Anonymous No.22448267]

>>22446611
>>So Buddhahood is conditioned? Then how is it not impermanent?
You have to start with the beginning. The goal of buddhism is to eradicate suffering. The goal is not to know the true nature of the universe and the usual crap spout out by mahayana like in the daimoku with the knowledge which ''embody the all-pervading nature of the universe that subsumes all phenomena'' when by the idiot here >>22445255 shilled the lotus suttra.
The goal is just ending suffering forever and that's it.
Now it turns out it's possible and it turns out to end suffering forever is done thru ''gnosis'' ie 'rigth knowledge'' ie ''insights'' ie ''wisdom''.
The major point of the Budhda is that the jhanas are cool and all, but they only reduce drastically suffering. It's a huge result by itself, and 99% of all the humans who ever lived will be happy with just that, if they ever get it, but meditation is not enough when strictly speaking the goal is to cut off suffering like a ''palm stump''.

So to get fully enlightened you have to have insights and this makes buddhism the proper ''Gnosticism''. The jewsih version of Gnosticism is a complete joke and comparing other branches of judaism like christianity to buddhim is just embarrassing for judaism.
-Jews' goal is not to end suffering in the first place
-Jews don't have any good meditation practice. In fact they shy away from it, after the mess of their nicaea schism. It's not even they have the wrong meditation, like in many other religions like mahayana hinduism jainism, it's that they really have zero meditation and their little cope about introducing meditation thru the back door with their rosary and jesus prayer is infantile even compared to failures like mahayna hinduism jainism
-Jews don't have the right knowledge. Even if they had the super duper meditation, like the buddha said, it's not enough to kill suffering because insights in to the aggregates are necessary and jews will never ever get those with judaism and whatever branches gentiles made up from it

[Anonymous No.22448269]

>>22448267

It's those insights which define buddhism and the jews just like hindus, mahayanists and so on will never get those and thus will never get fully enlightened. The best those people can do is being good at some wrong meditation and creating a propaganda that their wrong meditation=full enlightenment.

So in buddhism the destruction of suffering happens with ''wisdom''
>(10) “And how is a bhikkhu well liberated by wisdom? Here, a bhikkhu understands: ‘I have abandoned lust, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising; I have abandoned hatred … abandoned delusion, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising.’ It is in this way that a bhikkhu is well liberated by wisdom.

And it turns out the knowledge is has a proximate cause, and the cause of this knowledge has itself a cause, and this cause has gain a cause and so on. The whole path is triggering causes to get their effects,
>“Bhikkhus, (1) for a virtuous person, for one whose behavior is virtuous, (2) non-regret possesses its proximate cause. When there is non-regret, for one possessing non-regret, (3) joy possesses its proximate cause. When there is joy, for one possessing joy, (4) rapture possesses its proximate cause. When there is rapture, for one possessing rapture, (5) tranquility possesses its proximate cause. When there is tranquility, for one possessing tranquility, (6) pleasure possesses its proximate cause. When there is pleasure, for one possessing pleasure, (7) right concentration possesses its proximate cause. When there is right concentration, for one possessing right concentration, (8) the knowledge and vision of things as they really are possesses its proximate cause. When there is the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, for one possessing the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, (9) disenchantment and dispassion possess their proximate cause. When there is disenchantment and dispassion, for one possessing disenchantment and dispassion, (10) the knowledge and vision of liberation possesses its proximate cause.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.3/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false

and like the buddha said, this entanglement is the same for all fully enlightened people, ie arhats, solitary buddha, complete buddha. All those people have the same liberation and don't any new liberation afterwards.
>“Bhikkhus, whatever noble ones in the past abided in noble abodes, all abided in these same ten noble abodes. Whatever noble ones in the future will abide in noble abodes, all will abide in these same ten noble abodes. Whatever noble ones at present abide in noble abodes, all abide in these same ten noble abodes.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.20/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false

Of course this kills mahayana and make the mahayanists seethe to this day, ie this guy >>22444896
.

[Anonymous No.22448273]

>>22448267
It's those insights which define buddhism and the jews just like hindus, mahayanists and so on will never get those and thus will never get fully enlightened.
The best those people can do is being good at some wrong meditation and creating a propaganda that their wrong meditation=full enlightenment.

So in buddhism the destruction of suffering happens with ''wisdom''
>(10) “And how is a bhikkhu well liberated by wisdom? Here, a bhikkhu understands: ‘I have abandoned lust, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising; I have abandoned hatred … abandoned delusion, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising.’ It is in this way that a bhikkhu is well liberated by wisdom.

And it turns out the knowledge has a proximate cause, and the cause of this knowledge has itself a cause, and this cause has gain a cause and so on. The whole path is triggering causes to get their effects,
>“Bhikkhus, (1) for a virtuous person, for one whose behavior is virtuous, (2) non-regret possesses its proximate cause. When there is non-regret, for one possessing non-regret, (3) joy possesses its proximate cause. When there is joy, for one possessing joy, (4) rapture possesses its proximate cause. When there is rapture, for one possessing rapture, (5) tranquility possesses its proximate cause. When there is tranquility, for one possessing tranquility, (6) pleasure possesses its proximate cause. When there is pleasure, for one possessing pleasure, (7) right concentration possesses its proximate cause. When there is right concentration, for one possessing right concentration, (8) the knowledge and vision of things as they really are possesses its proximate cause. When there is the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, for one possessing the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, (9) disenchantment and dispassion possess their proximate cause. When there is disenchantment and dispassion, for one possessing disenchantment and dispassion, (10) the knowledge and vision of liberation possesses its proximate cause.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.3/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false

and like the buddha said, this entanglement is the same for all fully enlightened people, ie arhats, solitary buddha, complete buddha. All those people have the same liberation and don't need any new liberation afterwards.
>“Bhikkhus, whatever noble ones in the past abided in noble abodes, all abided in these same ten noble abodes. Whatever noble ones in the future will abide in noble abodes, all will abide in these same ten noble abodes. Whatever noble ones at present abide in noble abodes, all abide in these same ten noble abodes.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.20/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false

Of course this kills mahayana and make the mahayanists seethe to this day, ie this guy >>22444896#

[Anonymous No.22448396]

>>22448267
The "all-pervading nature of the universe that subsumes all phenomena" is just emptiness, the fact that nothing exists independently. Knowledge of emptiness is the gnosis that ends suffering.

[Anonymous No.22448452]

>>22448273
>>22448267
Google “prajnaparamita”. Thank me later

[Anonymous No.22448485]

>>22448204
Most extant copies of dharmic religious texts date from the middle ages to the early modern period.

[Anonymous No.22448507]

In the suttras the buddha says that:
-he speaks the truth
-the arhats are fully enlightened

In Mahayana, they say that
:
-the suttras are true, ie the arhats are fully enlightened according to the buddha
-but the arhats are not fully according to the same buddha
-because the buddha lied
-but then the buddha doesn't lie it was just an ''incomplete teaching''
-so it means arhats are indeed fully enlightened but they are not because... THEY AREN'T OKKAYYYY

The mental gymanistics is preposterous.

[Anonymous No.22448539]

>>22448267
According to traditional narratives, Buddhism arose during a period of popular śramaṇa asceticism which seems to parallel the rise of various Messianic and mystic currents in classical antiquity which had conflict existing between their beliefs and those of more mainstream Jewish traditions, as did between śramaṇa movements and Vedic Brahmanism.

[Anonymous No.22448559]

>>22448539
Aditionally state-sanctioned cults were also at the time losing their popularity to other foreign eastern cults and mystery schools.

[Anonymous No.22449551]

So there we have it, buddhism triumphs once more over Mahayana. Literally cannot be stopped.

[Anonymous No.22449889]

>>22446209
>all based on faith/belief
Wrong. Recurring testimony. Timing it requires faith to communicate but there is no INFALLIBLE TEXT that if you edit you go to hell. That is sola fide. Sola scriptura. I trust the spiritual experience of myself and my comrades and I know we sound superstitious to the laiety and I do not care about that laiety's concern. Scooby Dooby Biku is my life. I need no external consulting to corroborate but I appreciate the text's similarities to my experience.

[Anonymous No.22449895]

>>22449889
See for yourself is the standard of proof in Buddhism

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
This recurs over and over again in Angutara Nikaya and Mahjima Nikaya and I assume even more Nikaya I have yet to study

[Anonymous No.22449927]

>>22448396
> Nothing exists independently

How do practices work then? You have no control over whether you practice or not, as that will only happen if the external circumstances drive you to that?

[Anonymous No.22449928]

>>22449889
Buddha kept the psychic life and higher aspects of the Dhamma low key to the laiety. He wanted the focus and lionshare of the lion's roar to be for ethics not cool flare of higher superhuman supernatural states of consciousness and interactions. He was running the Sanghas like a business with prudence. It isn't like Christianity where heretics among the plebs are up for inquisition. Plebs gonna pleb. A bad dhamma speaker is a dhamma speaker. The absolution of views is seeing what is for what it is. Moments. There isn't a quest for complete education for all as much as a state of mind to aim for in training.
T. Reader of the Nikayas
ChatGPT will back me up on all this with textual specificity caviats for exact rephrasing.

[Anonymous No.22449938]

>>22449895
That's bullshit, observation and analysis leads to the rejection of every religion and spirituality as a whole.

[Anonymous No.22449978]

>>22449938
Welcome to the puzzling world of Zen Koans and frustrated High Rank monks who cannot even find out what Buddha means about the afterlife or Nirvana. If there is no self what is reborn? The usual confusing Buddhism.
Swami Sarvapriyananda goes on a whole academic journey from his background as an Advaita Vedanta Indian scholar to connecting common arguments (his the ones that make sense) with the various schools of Buddhism (none of which make sense or cohere).
Buddhism's standard of proof is through their traditional debate tactic of absolving all views and statements in reverent silence and emptiness. Listening itself is one major convention but still a convention that can be spoken of. Surprise. Mundane. These are the helpful meditative conventions but there is always beyond and beyond beyond. There is emptiness of emptiness so empty it cannot be spoken of or called. An unknown unknown if you will.
Buddhism shit tests itself recursively into frustrating self refuting paradoxes that destroy the stating power of language assertion and discernment with this exact express purpose.
There is a double entendre in self refuting. The Diamond Sutta sounds much like Wittgenstein's meditations on language games. However it has analytic propositions that sound near Euclidean in antiproof.

[Anonymous No.22449985]

>>22449938
As a whole
And as a hole
Wink wink
>hits gong
>bows
>levitates away

[Anonymous No.22450014]

>>22449938

[Anonymous No.22450052]

>refuses to elaborate
Westerners lack the interpersonal cultural basis for interpretation of these texts
https://youtu.be/vAZPWu084m4?si=v8kkQIfaR5XahEoR
This is why I love Indian culture so much. Chinese Buddhism itself shows how weird and foreign implant it is much like Christianity in Europe. Seeing Swami SPN lecture humanizes these arcane tomes into cohorts and schools of thought in continuity with history. Its so relatable to me its a fraternity.
https://youtu.be/vAZPWu084m4?si=v8kkQIfaR5XahEoR

[Anonymous No.22450230]

>>22449927
Only buddhas understand the workings of karma, so there's no reason to not behave as if we have free will. It is good to understand how all our preferences and inclinations are conditioned by our circumstances though. Even an interest in practicing dharma is a sign of a karmic connection.

[Anonymous No.22450239]

>>22449978
>their traditional debate tactic of absolving all views and statements in reverent silence and emptiness.
Lol. Lmao.
https://youtu.be/Vo3VDzb2onk?si=bl1GeEwuaicnkYUx

[Anonymous No.22450287]

How do I even start navigating Buddhist teachings? Abrahamic religions are pretty straightforward since there's usually just a book and Hinduism has autistic anime-tier lore you can sift through, but Buddhism feels like I can't get a solid foundational grip on anything

[Anonymous No.22450297]

>>22450287
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/formulae/sekha.html

[Anonymous No.22450301]

>>22450287
To me Buddhism only makes sense in Hindu context. Hindu context makes sense to me because I am THAT anime character

[Anonymous No.22450324]

>>22450287

[Anonymous No.22450339]

>>22450287
Start with the 'Jeets. No Japs and no Tibetans till you've read the 'Jeets

[Anonymous No.22450346]

>>22450339
>No Tibetans
>Posts Indian works with Tibetan commentaries
Reminder that Tibetan Buddhism is a direct continuation of the Indian Buddhist tradition of the great monasteries like Nalanda and Vikramashila

[Anonymous No.22450388]

>>22450301
>si
>ji

[Anonymous No.22450445]

>>22450346
Well the Indians don't have them anymore, the Tibetans do. My point should be obvious—not to start with Tibetan or Japanese sectarian Buddhisms which themselves are digestions of the Indian material you wouldn't have read yet

[Anonymous No.22450693]

I posted this before, I've been listening to dhamma talks by Venerable Dhammavudho Thero and editing out certain suttas I found intriguing. This far I have the anguttara, samyutta, and digha nikayas done (got sloppy with the anguttara Nikaya, I'll have to redo it), here's the link

https://mega.nz/folder/o10V1YTA#t05Ijm2VHPuW0fzp39CxPw

Link to the original talks:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1SR3MO-cLmaPaAB7KGgGqfg-k7NHy2RI3

I appreciate this monk because 95% of the time he's just reciting the suttas, and then explaining the more convoluted parts. It's about as authentic as it can get, via the Internet anyway. Excellent intro to the earliest available teachings of the Buddha, enjoy.

[Anonymous No.22450769]

>>22450693
How much do you feel you've understood by listening to these talks? E.g can you tell me what dukkha is with respect to your own present experience?

I've found that reading suttas is helpful but only when you stop after every question and try to construct an answer by yourself before hearing the Buddha's answer.

[Anonymous No.22450837]

>>22450769
Everything you experience is dukkha

[Anonymous No.22451011]

>>22450769
A lot, I've always had some pretty severe existential depression, or rational depression you could call it (what's referred to as samvega in the suttas), and have been trying to find answers about such existential quandaries my whole life. And a lot of personal guilt-tripping about not being good enough, not being able to help people, getting upset with people not caring, etc. Every so often a sutta exactly addresses what I'm bothered about, and does so in such a remarkably thorough way.

Off the top of my head:

It's better to help yourself before helping others

Buddha said his finding enlightenment was by sheer chance (inferring the world is truly chaotic, there is no great plan behind it all, you can only get out on your effort alone)

Buddha defines the world as the six senses (mind or intellect being the sixth). Everyone lives in their own world, defined by their senses. Only by transcending your six senses will you see the universal truth (done via the 4 body and beyond-body jhanas)

Uhh... yeah basically just hearing that true peace is found outside worldly aims, which is 99.99% what our current hypersensational culture is all about, was extremely invigorating for me, and the fact the suttas are so autistically thorough about it, yeah I've yet to get tired digesting all this very pertinent information. Currently doing a lot of reflection on dependent origination and the factors behind my own birth. Helps me quell a lot of anger towards my parents.

And Buddha basically said the self (the five clinging-aggregates) is dukkha, https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/dukkha.html

Dukkha is just a very generic word, used to describe anything that is inherently unsatisfactory. Which is pretty much anything outside nibanna if I understand it correctly. If it's conditioned, it's unstable, and therefore dukkha.

Could write more but I never enjoyed blogging. Ask better questions.

[Anonymous No.22451049]

>>22451011
One of my favorite suttas, I've taken the liberty of altering the English translation a bit because fuck you, I can:

AN 6.42:
"I have naught to do with homage, nor has homage anything to do with me. There are those who cannot obtain this bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of awakening when they want, without trouble or difficulty like I can. Let them enjoy that useless happiness, that inane, foolish happiness gotten from gains, favors, and flattery."

Along with the attached pic. A lot of the Buddha's teaching revolve around basically telling the world to go fuck itself, loosely speaking. Which I can very much appreciate.

[Anonymous No.22451052]

>>22450287
Start with What the Buddha Taught, then read the Heart Sutra.

[Anonymous No.22451140]

>>22450239
thirdie sovl

[Anonymous No.22451148]

>>22451140
Sane energy

[Anonymous No.22451157]

>>22442774
sectarianism exists where there are separate or competing schools or even institutions (in which case can be thought of as separate religions). buddhism very much has institutions- temples, dogma, and hierarchy. and separations between them. it is also deeply involved in the establishment and politics in non-commie buddhist countries, namely thailand and japan.

what i mean to say is it is not some religious or philosophical habit or notion, it is inherent competition that will always exist except where breaking off into sects is not allowed.

[Anonymous No.22451284]

>>22451011
Do you listen to Ajahn Nyanamoli’s teachings? I think you would love his stuff. Search ‘Hillside Hermitage’, it is a goldmine for someone with the attitude you describe in yourself

[Anonymous No.22451351]

>>22451284
Yeah I'm subscribed to their channel, also took some clips of Nyanamoli, along with a bunch of others:
https://mega.nz/folder/ZslCkapJ#xWXHDss_wOgtaUTPpEjnVw

Nyanamoli is solid, but he tends to be overly dominant in conversation. Any monk (renunciant rather) who keeps the patimokkha is worthy of respect, but I've always had trouble putting my faith in any because they all have obvious quirks and defilements still. Recognizing that, my main irritation was that very few would directly reference the suttas their viewpoints were based on. I eventually found myself spending most my time on Dhammavudho's lectures, and realized the only truly trustworthy source were the suttas themselves, and the conclusions that I personally draw from them. Getting over pain is a 100% DIY experience, and the suttas are the most trustworthy material there is to work with. That's how rare and valuable a Buddha is, and why monks still take refuge with him even though he died forever ago.

But yeah, take whatever inspiration you can get. It's a long, gradual path.

[Anonymous No.22451441]

>>22451351
There's also some Dalai Lama stuff in there, which isn't true dhamma, tibetan Buddhism is a later school. Good stuff, but not really 100% accurate with the nikayas. For one he shouldn't be making as much laughter as he does, there's a sutta against that, as it's excessively distracting from the message being given.

[Anonymous No.22451743]

>>22451351
Since the day of the death of the buddha, most monks are lost just like other people. It's pretty normal to need a buddha to get it.

[Anonymous No.22451762]

>>22451049
I love the question by the normie. It's typically what women think first and foremost when they see people not at at their feet.

[Anonymous No.22452200]

>>22442728
How do Buddhist reconcile that there hasn’t been a Buddha since the original Buddha?
The effort seems to last over several lifespans and it is therefore impossible to discover the Truth at least in this one.

[Anonymous No.22452569]

>>22452200
The have been plenty of other buddhas, and it is possible to attain buddhahood in this life

[Anonymous No.22452582]

>>22452200
buddhists accept the teaching disappears from time to time

[Anonymous No.22452584]

>>22452569
My favorite Buddha is the Flash and Naruto

[Anonymous No.22452590]

Bodhimax'd:
can walk on water,
Can read minds,
Firebending,
Water bending,
Antman size power,
Shadow clone jutsu,
Flying,
Speedforce

But no thats not the focus of the religion follow the rules and get good grades. Namo avuso. Praise Israel.

[Anonymous No.22452656]

>>22452584
Do shounen characters have a buddha nature?

[Anonymous No.22452703]

[Anonymous No.22453487]

Please give me Sutta's and books on mediation and quieting the mind. I need to find a way to stick to it as a daily habit as well as knowing if I'm "doing it right".

[Anonymous No.22453605]

>>22452569
All made up

[Anonymous No.22453684]

>>22453487

I like this Dzogchen inspired one:

https://www.evolvingground.org/opening-awareness

Also, start giving to charity, as authentic spiritual development is done for other people, and you can start benefiting others right now.

[Anonymous No.22453833]

>>22453684
You can't practice Dzogchen without transmission from a qualified teacher

[Anonymous No.22453986]

>>22445139
This anon makes good points. Stream entry CONFIRMED

[Anonymous No.22454448]

>>22453487
Search "meditation" in those clips I linked, there's some good advice.

To be honest meditation has become a massive meme, both in the east and west. It is far more important to work on your day to day behavior. If you have any latent lust, anxiety, hatred (the hindrances) within you, your meditation obviously isn't going to be successful. You have to unburden your mind of grief, regrets etc before it can be properly poised for developing deep insight.

The priority for a layman is the development of mature behavior (sila) and the development of right view. Proper meditation can only occur afterwards. Until then it's mostly just a calming exercise, still useful, but not true "samadhi" as taught by the Buddha.

[Anonymous No.22454909]

>>22442728
>Statement: Is Buddhism the something. Read this kitu from the Oogáboogá.

>Jūmanjî, Dharmä, and Greg approached their moshe during Sugurumanipanushadalm, etc. etc.

[Anonymous No.22455401]

>be hedonist
>go to burning man to coom 24/7 without being told you're a piece of shit
>dies being eaten alive by whores and coomers

>be buddhist
>stay comfy in jhanas
>comm infinitely more than any hedonist ever
>nothing bad ever happens to you

buddhism wins again

[Anonymous No.22455406]

>be hedonist
>go to burning man to coom 24/7 without being told you're a piece of shit
>die being eaten alive by whores and coomers

>be buddhist
>stay comfy in jhanas
>coom infinitely more than any hedonist ever
>nothing bad ever happens to you

buddhism wins again

[Anonymous No.22455408]

>>22455401
Got nothing to do with Buddhism. If you wanted to bump the thread, just bump would have sufficed. Also very compassionate view on suffering of others.

[Anonymous No.22455452]

And just like that buddhism is killed forever.

[Anonymous No.22455484]

>>22443778
methods for what. can't get enlightened through methods or everyone would've done it already.

[Anonymous No.22455489]

>>22445149
Not zen.

[Anonymous No.22455545]

>>22442752
and vajrayana is greater than mahayana

[Anonymous No.22455576]

>>22455545
No it isn’t, they both lead to the same goal

[Anonymous No.22455582]

>>22455576
yes but way quicker

[Anonymous No.22455588]

>>22442752
>>22442752
>The early disciples could not understand the greatness of an all-encompassing teaching, a teaching with profound, cosmological impact.

This is false according to mahayana by the way >>22444981

[Anonymous No.22455687]

>>22451351
>Nyanamoli is solid, but he tends to be overly dominant in conversation.
What do you mean by this? Do you sense a selfishness in that? I've also sensed an impatience in him when he listens to others speak. It's an impatience I've sensed in myself, and it always troubles me to see it in dhamma practitioners and priests.

[Anonymous No.22455873]

>>22455687
Of course there's some selfishness, only an arahant is truly free of conceit. Nyanamoli certainly is on the right track, but probably his desire to manage his Sangha/Hermitage is overwhelming his desire to transcend dukkha (something I notice in Ajahn Sona as well). It's probably the most common hangup, certainly is for me, wanting a healthy society to live in, someone having your back, rather than going off into seclusion and dismantling your ego via sheer willpower alone. It can be done quickly with fierce concentration, or slowly over lifetimes, but it still must be done, and whatever desire you have for a social support network, friends, et cetera must be moved on from. Because all those things are conditioned, subject to change. Only nibanna is unconditioned.

Probably there are a lot of genuine arahants out there, and they know better than to make themselves public lol. The best of the best would make their way to them, and then they would teach. Otherwise it's easy to get tangled up in politics, homekeeping, etc. See AN 9.1.7 and DN 29.26, nine things an arahant cannot do, "acting wrongly through attachment" implies a lot.

I spent a lot of time trying to find a flawless example to follow, and it's frustrating, and scary, when you realize how rare it is and that you'll have to move on into the darkness alone. Abstaining from the ten evil kammas covers most of the ground though. Really just developing a general wisdom about life is the primary necessity. Listen to those talks.

[Anonymous No.22455893]

>>22455545
And Dzogchen is greater than Vajrayana

[Anonymous No.22455970]

>>22455873
I do consider this incessant need to communicate insights a fetter. You do have to move into the darkness alone. I am always grateful to talk to people like you in these threads. I haven't had read this thread all the way yet, would you mind providing a list of some of your favorite Buddhist resources? Lectures, figures, etc. Even if this reliance on this material is a fetter for me. I am just so hungry to listen to people who understand what you're telling me.

[Anonymous No.22456030]

I don't think anyone who browses 4chan should be taken seriously when they expostulate on what they think the dhamma is lol. 4chan is a clear manifestation of the defilements and a net negative on the mind. It'd be one of the first things to go if a 4channer decided to practice Buddhism in earnest.

[Anonymous No.22456125]

>>22456030
Engaging with 4chan can be a tantric practice

[Anonymous No.22456127]

>>22453833
Huineng tore the sutras and you should too.

Besides, you can get transmission from anywhere if you know what's what.

[Anonymous No.22456188]

>>22455452
> idiot who does not understand the hard problem of consciousness

Meanwhile, actual neuroscientist Erik Hoel is talking of scientific incompleteness, the possibility science cannot be finished.

[Anonymous No.22456199]

>>22455970
Authentic spiritual development is done for the benefit of others, so one should communicate whatever insights one posesses. Buddha himself considered simply enjoying nirvana in seclusion until Brahma straightened him out. Not communicating insights is something Buddha himself rejected, in short.

[Anonymous No.22456220]

>>22442728
While you read,
think of a better version of same.
Also remember that Nirvana is a resort trap; a hedonistic abyss for the Last Man to perish and resurrect from to transcend the Eternal Loop and become Greater than One.

[Anonymous No.22456225]

>>22456220
wrong book,
>same
Sam
Imagine an Improved Sam and spread what you think that Sam would look like and how he would win the book better/faster.

[Anonymous No.22456230]

>>22456220
On the topic, remember that you are Maxwell's Demon sorting through the story and will have to reach externally (see Post-Modern referents/mechanics) to get more out than you put in. That's how you suck from metaphysics (Hyperreality), and create energy in physics (the Real World)

[Anonymous No.22456234]

>>22456220
Long story short.
Don't be a mere number.
Be more.
Be many petals on one lotus.

[Anonymous No.22456243]

>>22456220
>a hedonistic abyss for the Last Man to perish and resurrect from to transcend the Eternal Loop and become Greater than One.
false it's the opposite

[Anonymous No.22456247]

>>22456230
>>On the topic, remember that you are Maxwell's Demon sorting through the story and will have to reach externally (see Post-Modern referents/mechanics) to get more out than you put in.
Atheist cringe.

[Anonymous No.22456306]

>>22455970
The desire to communicate would be a fetter, but I'm not sure relying on the suttas/the wisdom of others could be considered as such, certainly very different categories. Buddha states the two factors for steam-entry are careful attention and "another's utterance" (MN 43), so taking that literally means listening to wise elders is mandatory.

Also, desire is a necessary part of the path (SN 51.15). It's just desire that will lead to nibanna, rather than leaving you roiling in samsara. A good analogy I've heard is likening it to homesickness, if you're trying to get somewhere new, ie become a different person, but can't get over your homesickness, then you'll never make it to the other destination. A lot of dreams have to be left behind.

Also bruh I just posted two years worth of audio edits. Listen to them. I'm most impressed with Jayasaro, Amaro, and then Dhammavudho's lectures. Even just leaving it on in the background, over time you'll hear things that "stick" with you, over time more things stick, you'll ruminate on them as they build up, which will lead to epiphanies that are strong enough to convince you to change your habits.

Probably the most important sutta in those links for laypeople is SN 12.41, where Buddha explains the criteria of a stream enterer, which is keeping 7 precepts, conviction in Buddha (possibility of enlightenment), dhamma (that there is an objective reality/truth to become enlightened to), and Sangha (that there are people who care to figure it out), and then a basic recognition of the law of dependant origination, that all things are conditioned. I tend to think of it as the rule that nothing occurs in a vacuum. Everything that you are, your behavior etc, came into existence in reference to something else. A very simple rule with extreme depth, apparently divisible into 12 steps, there are many suttas where the Buddha goes into DO in depth.

Also a note on dependent origination, when I hear Mahayanists talk about it it's usually as "inter-being", that we all somehow need each other to live. But the Buddha taught DO for the sake of breaking *out* of it, to break free from such conditions, to become truly unconditioned, nibanna. So that's an important distinction to understand.

But yeah, a layperson's goal should be the epiphany of stream entry, which is also the factor of Right View. After that you're guaranteed never to fall into the woeful planes of existence, and a good deal of your fear or samvega can then properly dissipate.

Listen to those talks.. I'm really just repeating them here. It's 95% of what I know.

[Anonymous No.22456355]

>>22456306
I will. Thank you very much.

[Anonymous No.22456534]

>>22456306
Dependent origination has different meanings in different contexts. There's the meaning that nothing exists independently, everything depends on everything other than itself for its existence. Then there's the 12 links of dependent origination which are what cause sentient beings to be continuously reborn in samsara. The goal of all Buddhist traditions is breaking the 12 links of dependent origination.
https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Dependent_origination

[Anonymous No.22456605]

>this thread

[Anonymous No.22457700]

Ok but does it fight crime?

[Anonymous No.22457829]

>>22457700
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Buddha

[Anonymous No.22458338]

>>22457829
based

[Anonymous No.22458340]

>>22457829
Holy shit

[Anonymous No.22458351]

>>22455452
If our consciousness is but a specific series of atoms, then it means that consciousness will be revived when this specific series of atoms is replicated after death.
However small the chance of something like that happening may be, if time and space are infinite, it will happen.
According to laws of physics, time and space are infinite (if by time we mean everything that was before Big Bang and everything that will be after the death of the universe and if by space we mean not only what constitutes our universe but also what is beyond it). Thus, series of atoms will be replicated, consciousness will be revived, and there is life after death.
The direct conclusions of this guy's believes.

[Anonymous No.22458647]

>>22456030
>4chan is a clear manifestation of the defilements and a net negative on the mind. It'd be one of the first things to go if a 4channer decided to practice Buddhism in earnest.
This is brought up in any thread about religion, which I never get. What is the point of bringing this up, it adds nothing or is opens no fruitful dialogue. If this place is filthy, isn't this the place to speak about religion and make anons better? Like the monk living in the whorehouse, who instead of being defiled, made whores into monks. You're confusing observation of religion with bourgeois social posturing. You technically could spend your life in a monastery, and never become closer to enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.22458748]

>>22456030
Literal slave mindset. But that's exactly what you need to be a "buddhist". Don't forget to praise jesusbuddha!

[Anonymous No.22458784]

>>22458748
>muh slave morality
There's nothing more slavish than selfishly pursuing your own desires

[Anonymous No.22458950]

>>22458647
Levels of cope:
>The internet itself is bad for you, but at least 4chan has free speech
>4chan is bad for you, but I'm addicted to (you)s
>4chan is bad for you, but there's nowhere else to go
>4chan is bad for you but I'm trying to save other anons <-- you are here
>4chan is bad for you, but its fine in moderation
>Actually, 4chan is good for you

[Anonymous No.22459022]

>>22458950
You're dodging the question. Never said I practice Buddhism, or any other religion. You're whole post is just a list of your own assumptions. Want to try again?

[Anonymous No.22459037]

This Sutta is sinister. Based. I've already understood its meaning. But.... is still dark as fuck.

[Anonymous No.22459091]

women just can't stand that men stop being at their feet 24/7

[Anonymous No.22459154]

>>22456534
Thanks for the clarification, I obviously don't spend as much time on Mahayana than I do on Theravada. The handful of mahayana talks on DO that I've listened to tend to gloss over the deeper meaning and make it out as something warm and fuzzy.. though now that I think about it most Theravadans, or monks who call themselves Theravadans anyway, don't do a very good job explaining it either.

It's just hard to find a good teacher, period. The suttas really are as good as it gets. At least, knowing them helps a lot in knowing who's full of shit and who isn't, as in any religious dialogue.

DN 12, types of blameworthy teachers
"Lohicca, these three kinds of teachers in the world are blameworthy, and if anyone blames such teachers, his blame is proper, true, in accordance with reality and faultless. Which three? Here, Lohicca, is a teacher who has gone forth from the household life into homelessness, but who has not gained the goal of asceticism. And without having gained this goal, he
teaches his disciples a doctrine saying: "This is for your good, this is for your happiness." But his pupils don't wish to hear, they don't listen, the don't arouse the thought of enlightenment, and the teacher's instructions are flouted. He should be blamed, saying: "This venerable one has gone forth...his instructions are flouted. It is just as if a man were to persist in making advances to a woman who rejected him, and to embrace her though she turned away." This I declare to be an evil doctrine based on attachment, for what can one man do for another? This is the first teacher who is blameworthy..."

Interestingly Buddha also goes on to say that even if a monk attains enlightenment and tries to teach, but others don't want to listen, then that too is blameworthy.

DN 16, the suttas supercede all teachers
"Suppose a monk were to say: "Friends, I heard and received this from the Lord's own lips: this is the Dhamma, this is the discipline, this is the Master's teaching", then, monks, you should neither approve nor disapprove his words. Then, without approving or disapproving, his words and expressions should be carefully noted and compared with the Suttas and reviewed in the light of the discipline. If they, on such comparison and review, are found not to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is not the word of the Buddha, it has been wrongly understood by this monk", and the matter is to be rejected. But where on such comparison and review they are found to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is the word of the Buddha, it has been rightly understood by this monk." This is the first criterion."

[Anonymous No.22459177]

>>22459154
Another one of my favorites, Buddha roasts an uppity young brahmin, calling his teacher out as a big ol poofter.

DN 3, teacher has let you down
"Ambattha, in the pursuit of this unexcelled attainment of knowledge and conduct there are four paths of failure. What are they?

In the first place, an ascetic or Brahmin who has not managed to gain this unexcelled attainment, takes his carrying-pole and plunges into the depths of the forest thinking: "I will live on windfalls." But in this way he only becomes an attendant on one who has attained. This is the first path of failure. Again, an ascetic or Brahmin...being unable to live on windfalls, takes a spade and basket, thinking: "I will live on tubers and roots." This is the second path of failure. Again, an ascetic or Brahmin, being unable to live on tubers and roots, makes a fire-hearth at the edge of a village or small town and sits tending the flame...This is the third path of failure. Again, an ascetic or Brahmin, being unable to tend the flame, erects a house with four doors at the crossroads thinking: "Whatever ascetic or Brahmin arrives from the four quarters, I will honour to the best of my strength and ability." But in this way he only becomes an attendant on one who has attained to unexcelled knowledge and conduct. This is the fourth path of failure.

What do you think, Ambattha? Do you and your teacher live in accordance with this unexcelled knowledge and conduct? "No indeed, Reverend Gotama! Who are my teacher and I in comparison? We are far from it!" Well then, Ambattha, could you and your teacher, being unable to gain this...go with your carrying-poles into the depths of the forest, intending to live on windfalls? "No indeed, Reverend Gotama." Well then, Ambattha, could you and your teacher, being unable to gain this...live on tubers and roots...sit tending the flame...erect a house... "No indeed, Reverend Gotama."

And so, Ambattha, not only are you and your teacher incapable of attaining this unexcelled knowledge and conduct, but even the four paths of failure are beyond you. And yet you and your teacher the Brahmin Pokkharasati utter these words: "These shaven little ascetics, menials, black scrapings from Brahma's foot, what converse can they have with Brahmins learned in the Three Vedas?" - even though you can't even manage the duties of one who has failed. See, Ambattha, how your teacher has let you down!"

[Anonymous No.22459230]

>>22459154
Should I be feeling bad about trying to convey the Dhamma on 4chan?

[Anonymous No.22459252]

>>22456534
>>Dependent origination has different meanings in different contexts.
this is absolutely false lol
there is only 1 dependent origination

[Anonymous No.22459287]

>>22459252
Claiming there is only one dependent origination implies there is a single unity to which everything can be related which contradicts dependent origination. This is the classic Hindu mistake. Are you one of these Indian nationalists trying to infiltrate Buddhist spaces?

[Anonymous No.22459351]

>>22459230
I dunno, probably. I can tell you that it's a massive waste of time, a very inefficient why to undergo bhavana, personal transformation. You'd be far better off spending that time on yourself, cultivating your own knowledge, and as you become a more mature individual people will be more easily impressed with you, and that simple impression does a lot more for both yourself and the world than preaching dhamma. Live it, don't preach it.

AN 6.7.68, you have to be okay with being alone
“Bhikkhus, it is impossible that a bhikkhu who delights in company, who is devoted to delight in company...will find delight in solitude. It is impossible that one who does not find delight in solitude...will acquire the object of the mind. It is impossible that one who does not acquire the object of the mind will fulfill right view. It is impossible that one who does not fulfill right view will fulfill right concentration. It is impossible that one who does not fulfill right concentration will abandon the fetters. Without having abandoned the fetters, it is impossible that one will realize nibbāna."

[Anonymous No.22459387]

>>22459351
Another one of my favorites

I need to take the time to visit an authentic monastery, there's one in West Virginia a few hours away from me. Tbh I'm a little scared to go. Still got a lot of personal anxiety to iron out.

Inb4 some chode whines about the sutta where the Buddha states that a good friend is the whole of the holy life, I'm 99% certain that's largely an error in translation and is elucidated upon in a later sutta. One of the suttas I frequently hear being thrown around by pseudo-buddhists who're really just hippies in denial.

[Anonymous No.22459395]

>>22459351
I'm deeply depressed. It's over for me. I can spend all day talking to the wind.
>Why haven't you reached Nirvana yet?
Bad Karma?
Buddhism doesn't cure depression.
But it's okay.

[Anonymous No.22459410]

>>22459395
>>Buddhism doesn't cure depression.
depression is purely mental and buddhism removes mental impurities

[Anonymous No.22459414]

>>22459387
>>I need to take the time to visit an authentic monastery, there's one in West Virginia a few hours away from me. Tbh I'm a little scared to go.
If you are scared, wait for an Doors Open Day, or some buddhist holiday where the public is always allowed.

[Anonymous No.22459425]

>>22459395
Buddha used Shonen Jump to avoid Angulimala's "finger lickin' good" ™ attacks

Captcha: RRRGJJ

[Anonymous No.22459444]

>>22459410
No, my friend. It's no use. I've tried everything. I understand a lot about Buddhism, and I respect the Buddha very much, but no.
I've heard of others who have tried monastic life and their symptoms have gotten worse.
The Theravada monastery closest to me already knows about my autism. The teacher there... You know, if I told you that I had already attained some jhana, you might be more sympathetic and explain why I hadn't...

[Anonymous No.22459449]

>>22459425
Kek

[Anonymous No.22459560]

>>22458950
>4chan helps me articulate my thought in the least predictable yet least consequential space around for interaction
>/lit/ gives me writer muscle gains

[Anonymous No.22459575]

>>22459387
>hippies in denial
Boomers hide the Buddha to our time.
I almost forgot English because anglophone discourse is so hostile to purge heathens and enforce some categorical conformity. You people type like you're the internet's antibiotic with the sole objective of spreading Anglo autism. The world is not your suburban family or tantrum campus. There are beautiful temples and villages with different ethnic histories and linguistic frameworks that do not revolve around leftish losers propped up by bureacrats to do drugs as the cool kids.

[Anonymous No.22459579]

>>22459575
Worse I see Buddha statues most often IRL by smokeshops and leftist business cards.

[Anonymous No.22460211]

>>22450324
Are these any good?

I keep trying to dive into the works of the Metta Forest Monastery and Theravada as a whole but I keep wanting to come back to Vajrayana as it was my first "encounter" with Buddhism.

[Anonymous No.22460453]

>>22459444
Have you tried psychoanalysis?

[Anonymous No.22460499]

>>22460453
That’s obscurantist quackery at worst and wishful thinking at best.

[Anonymous No.22460722]

>>22459444
You know, I had an epiphany during my own depression that if I was just going to sit around feeling like killing myself, but not making the effort to understand exactly why I felt that way, then I was being de facto selfish. There's no argument otherwise. If you have the time and intelligence to investigate your depression but choose not to, that is plain and simple selfishness. Choosing to wallow in self-pity rather than make the very real effort to change it. It's not easy, but it's far from impossible.

Other people who are living good lives, but don't make the effort to perpetuate the favorable conditions they were born into, are living on borrowed time. Those favorable conditions will wear out if not properly maintained, and those people will grow ugly and die miserable. In fact, the Buddha states in AN 1.19.2 that most humans reincarnate in the lower woeful planes.

Anyway, for me it was contemplation of dependant origination, and then kamma and reincarnation that made the most difference. You won't understand kamma and reincarnation until you first recognize the law of dependant origination, that everything is conditioned. How you choose to live changes those conditions. After you die the conditions you left behind condition the next being to arise (which is due to craving, which I suspect may be the law of atomic attraction).

Anyway, you're clearly just being a self-absorbed weenie, maybe eventually you'll decide to act differently and address that dukkha. Not like you really have a choice, even suicide won't end this mess. Listen to those tapes, you'll figure something out.

If you spend most your time indoors get a UVA/UVB reptile bulb off Amazon, the 80w one for ~$25. I found it helpful for combating seasonal depression.

Also stop fapping. I bet you are fapping, fucking whiny faggot who the hells gonna take you seriously if you can't even keep your hand off your junk? Jesus.

[Anonymous No.22460780]

>>22459252
There's the dependent origination of inanimate objects, which is the lack of inherent existence, and there's the dependent origination of sentient beings, which is the twelve links that lead to continuous samsaric rebirth. Obviously since sentient beings lack an inherently existing self the first type also applies to them. This is common to all Buddhist traditions. The twelve links are in the pali suttas as well as the description of all phenomena being entirely dependent on other phenomena for their existence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da

[Anonymous No.22460942]

>>22460722
>fucking whiny faggot
So this... is the power of noble right speech. Namo tassa bhagavato

[Anonymous No.22461055]

>>22460942
Yeah and it totally invalidates everything I said too, gg

[Anonymous No.22461084]

>>22461055
All it does is reveal your hypocrisy.

[Anonymous No.22461120]

>>22459395
I'm pretty sure I would've killed myself by now if it weren't for Buddhism

[Anonymous No.22461235]

>>22460722
>>22461120
Yes, I also owe my life to the Buddha. Finding the Suttas was like finally finding someone who understood me like no one else could.
It's like the Buddha said, even the mind doesn't belong to you, and I'm proof of that.
Life is very difficult, depression is not to be trifled with.
I don't know what to say. I'm very grateful to Buddha, the awakened one, the enlightened one.

[Anonymous No.22461704]

>>22450230
this

[Anonymous No.22461718]

>>22450052
The Laṅkāvatāra sūtra discusses the difference between the hindu self and the no-self:

"Similarly, that tathagatagarbha taught in the sutras spoken by the Bhagavan, since the completely pure luminous clear nature is completely pure from the beginning, possessing the thirty two marks, the Bhagavan said it exists inside of the bodies of sentient beings. When the Bhagavan described that– like an extremely valuable jewel thoroughly wrapped in a soiled cloth, is thoroughly wrapped by cloth of the aggregates, ayatanas and elements, becoming impure by the conceptuality of the thorough conceptuality suppressed by the passion, anger and ignorance – as permanent, stable and eternal, how is the Bhagavan’s teaching this as the tathagatagarbha is not similar with as the assertion of self of the non-Buddhists?

Bhagavan, the non-Buddhists make assertion a Self as 'A permanent creator, without qualities, pervasive and imperishable.'

The Bhagavan replied:

'Mahamati, my teaching of tathagatagarbha is not equivalent with the assertion of the Self of the non-Buddhists. Mahamati, the Tathagata, Arhat, Samyaksambuddhas, having demonstrated the meaning of the words "emptiness, reality limit, nirvana, non-arisen, signless", etc. as tathagatagarbha for the purpose of the immature complete forsaking the perishable abodes, demonstrate the expertiential range of the non-appearing abode of complete non-conceptuality by demonstrating the door of tathagatagarbha. Mahamati, a self should not be perceived as real by Bodhisattva Mahasattvas enlightened in the future or presently. Mahamati, for example, a potter, makes one mass of atoms of clay into various kinds containers from his hands, craft, a stick, thread and effort. Mahamati, similarly, although Tathagatas avoid the nature of conceptual selflessness in dharmas, they also appropriately demonstrate tathagatagarbha or demonstrate emptiness by various kinds [of demonstrations] possessing prajña and skillful means; like a potter, they demonstrate with various enumerations of words and letters. As such, because of that, Mahamati, the demonstration of Tathagatagarbha is not similar with the Self demonstrated by the non-Buddhists. Mahamati, the Tathagatas as such, in order to guide those grasping to assertions of the Self of the Non-Buddhists, will demonstrate tathagatagarbha with the demonstration of tathagatagarbha. How else will the sentient beings who have fallen into a conceptual view of a Self, possess the thought to abide in the three liberations and quickly attain the complete manifestation of Buddha in unsurpassed perfect, complete enlightenment?"

[Anonymous No.22461899]

>>22461718
>"Similarly, that tathagatagarbha taught in the sutras spoken by the Bhagavan, since the completely pure luminous clear nature is completely pure from the beginning, possessing the thirty two marks, the Bhagavan said it exists inside of the bodies of sentient beings. When the Bhagavan described that– like an extremely valuable jewel thoroughly wrapped in a soiled cloth, is thoroughly wrapped by cloth of the aggregates, ayatanas and elements, becoming impure by the conceptuality of the thorough conceptuality suppressed by the passion, anger and ignorance – as permanent, stable and eternal, how is the Bhagavan’s teaching this as the tathagatagarbha is not similar with as the assertion of self of the non-Buddhists?
god mahayanists are awful at making suttas.
Those people just can't stop being pompous.

>>22461718
>completely pure luminous clear nature
also this is wrong, a buddha doesn't have a nature, let alone the brahminical luminous nature that brahmins are desperate to pass as the atman

[Anonymous No.22462059]

>>22461899
How is that pompous exactly? To me it seems as clear as it could possibly be written

[Anonymous No.22462200]

>>22461899
>“Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that—for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones—there is development of the mind.”
https://suttacentral.net/an1.51-60/en/thanissaro?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false

[Anonymous No.22462204]

>>22461899
>let alone the brahminical luminous nature that brahmins are desperate to pass as the atman
buddha is rejecting the idea that the luminous nature is an atman/Brahman in that sutra tho

[Anonymous No.22463132]

So, uhh, how come there's still all this suffering and whatnot? Can this Buddha character hurry it up already

[Anonymous No.22463141]

>>22442741
>Hinayana sutta?
It's a canonical sutta in mahayana too.

[Anonymous No.22463158]

>>22459395
>Buddhism doesn't cure depression.
Try telling that to the plethora of idiots who think transcendental teaching is self-help advice or psychotherapy.

[Anonymous No.22463814]

>>22460942
Toplel

[Anonymous No.22463883]

>>22445029
>all religions have been made / influenced by demons
FTFY

[Anonymous No.22464083]

>>22459395
>Buddhism doesn't cure depression.
it can help to make depression a mere aspect of you and not a source of suffering and something that defines you, have faith in yourself, you're not a lost cause

[Anonymous No.22464190]

>>22463132
The Buddha only shows the path, you have to do the work