The Shadow of the Torturer by Gene Wolfe

[Anonymous No.22418873]

After years of seeing "The Book of The New Sun" being spammed for years I've decided to give it a try, a couple of hours ago I've finished the first book so far:
>the protagonist is fucking awful
>in the first half of the book NOTHING happens
>nice doggo
>the flashbacks and information being given of the world are presented in the most spastic way possible
>every woman in the book wants to fuck Severian after 12 minutes of conversation
>the rest of the book is Severian telling us how he loved every single woman he ever met

Am I retarded or am I missing something? the thing with the mirrors and the flying fortress seemed interesting but not enough to compensate for the boredom that the book causes me. Does the series improve or stay that way? because for now to say I'm disappointed is an understatement

[Anonymous No.22418878]

>>22418873
Fell for the meme like a retard

read Bakker

[Anonymous No.22418884]

>>22418878
>calls something a meme
>suggests bakker

[Anonymous No.22418896]

>>22418873
Ah, your foray into "The Book of the New Sun" has stirred a tempest of ambivalence, a reaction not uncommon among readers. The labyrinthine narrative penned by Gene Wolfe is indeed a multifaceted tapestry that can elicit a spectrum of responses. It is worth contemplating that the work's opacity and intricate layers may, in part, contribute to your current discomfiture.

The initial volume's languid pacing and enigmatic storytelling might be likened to a slow dance with the nebulous intricacies of Severian's world, a prologue to the narrative symphony yet to crescendo. The richness of Wolfe's prose and the subtle interplay of themes often necessitate a discerning eye for subtlety and a penchant for decoding symbolism.

As you venture deeper into the series, you may uncover the dimensions that lie beyond Severian's romantic inclinations, and the mysteries that enshroud his experiences might gradually unfurl into a more intricate mosaic. While the series does possess moments of enthralling intrigue, it remains wedded to its distinctive narrative rhythm, a cadence that might continue to perplex even as it beguiles. Whether this complexity proves palatable to your literary sensibilities is, of course, a matter of personal predilection.

[Anonymous No.22418899]

>>22418873
OP you don’t get it, it’s not for you. Honestly there’s no need for you to carry on with the series.

[Anonymous No.22418907]

>>22418896
Fuck off with this chatGPT low effort bullshit you can smell it a mile off.

[Anonymous No.22418909]

>>22418873
Was Jolenta asking for it?

[Anonymous No.22418930]

>>22418884
Nice cat
>>22418899
i feel like the book said nothing, I'll try reading the second one.
>>22418909
my nigga asking the real questions

[Anonymous No.22418945]

>>22418873
I also dropped this on the second book. I'm determined to buy and read the whole series at some point because I've never been defeated by a book like this. When I say "defeated", it's not that I don't understand what I'm reading, it's that I don't understand what the hell is supposed to be amazing about it. I share your sentiments OP. It felt to like just a bunch of "this happens, then this happens, then this happens," but not in a good way. I'm especially baffled by the point about the supposedly brilliant prose. I don't find it atmospheric, descriptive or even really remarkable in any way.

[Anonymous No.22418981]

>>22418873
>Am I retarded or am I missing something?
BotNS is pretty much 'Implication: the book' so I would say that you missed maybe the whole thing.

[Anonymous No.22419001]

>>22418981
The entire main story is summed up in the last chapter of Citadel, including the unreliable aspects of his POV. The only implication left to the reader is the identity of his parents.

[Anonymous No.22419013]

>>22418909
Yeah. Let's be real. In no world other than the mind of a radical feminist what Severian did counts as rape.

[Anonymous No.22419233]

>>22418909
Completely.
It always makes me laugh when BotNS-onlies cite an instance of dubious consent as evidence that Wolfe was an evil misogynist when his other books have plenty of scenes and comments (even if they're coming from flawed characters) that are much, much worse.
But most "Wolfe readers" just skim the New Sun Wikipedia page and call it a day. Sad!

[Anonymous No.22419243]

>>22418945
what are some sf/fa books you do like anon?

[Anonymous No.22419305]

>>22418945
As a Wolfe fan I'll freely admit that his storytelling style isn't for everybody. The line you always hear that his books are "meant for rereading" is something I used to scoff at but now completely agree with. All of the Solar Cycle is a fever dream the first time around, I think the factor that determines whether it's for you" is whether you can enjoy the ride.

[Anonymous No.22419420]

>>22419243
So you can dump on them? Fuck off bozo.
>>22419305
That's why I want to read the whole thing as one book as Wolfe intended before I reach a final verdict

[Anonymous No.22419426]

I feel pity that you had this reaction.

[Anonymous No.22419577]

>>22418873
Honestly? I feel like the Latro books or Long Sun are easier for someone new to Wolfe. The protagonists are much more likable in any case.
Short Sun absolutely goes back to being a fever dream.
You also might consider giving the audiobook version a try too. New Sun seemed to click more when I listened for my reread.

[Anonymous No.22419586]

>>22419577
Retard

[Anonymous No.22419684]

>>22419243
empire of silence was okay
finished demon in white in an all nighter yesterday
know where can i request the next two books anon?

[Anonymous No.22419695]

>>22418873
The aesthetics of this thing is not appealing in the slightest I can almost tell how it's gonna read

[Anonymous No.22419745]

>>22418945
>It felt to like just a bunch of "this happens, then this happens, then this happens," but not in a good way
Precisely my point anon and if you say that this doesn't change in the next book as well then i don't undestand all the hype for this serie
>>22419426
Care to back that up with some argument?
>>22419695
Like what?

[Anonymous No.22420714]

I just finished the first book ealier today. I had a giggle when Severian clips Agia over the head when she starts announcing his name at the duel even though he asked her to.

[Anonymous No.22420735]

>>22418873
BOTN is one of those artsy-fartsy fantasy books that pretentious retards read as to not feel guilty about partaking in a filthy "genre fiction". Other exampels would be Gormenghast and Voyage to Arcturus. Therse

[Anonymous No.22420821]

>>22418873
IME the most highly lauded sci-fi books on /lit/ usually suck. sci-fi fans have the absolute worst taste just look at Asimov and Gibson two of the most generic authors I've had the displeasure of reading yet they're two biggest sci-fi authors ever while great authors go unnoticed.

[Anonymous No.22420953]

>>22420714
I mean if that is the first good thing that comes to mind when you think of the book...fuck
>>22420735
Damn it i was gonna try gormenghast next
>>22420821
Asimov wrote good stuff from time to time, but i see what you mean

[Anonymous No.22421706]

>>22420735
>>Peake
>>artsy-fartsy fantasy book
>>filthy "genre fiction"
Baiting or filtered?

[Anonymous No.22421844]

>>22418873
I really enjoyed the post-cyberpunk book The Fortunate Fall by Raphael Carter. it feels futuristic today even though it was written 30 years ago. I did not enjoy necromancer but loved this cyberpunk

[Anonymous No.22421966]

Shadow and Claw is not good because of its characters or its plot. It's good because of its prose and its world building. As much as I hate that word "world building," that's really the main draw of this series. So many little hints are scattered here and there. They don't ride horses, they ride prehistoric animals that only exist in fossil records. There are aliens and robots, but only the careful reader will pick up on it. Reading the series is like reading a rubrix cube that's unsolved. It's not immediately rewarding, but if you unravel the hints, you can get a clearer picture.

I hate the term "world building" because it often means "irrelevant bullshit," like hinting at past wars and developing complex weather systems for a continent, or a language that's really not a language but a cipher or a funny alphabet or something. World building is how fantasy authors jerk each other off. It's really pathetic. But if you are that type of reader who likes to gush about "world building," you're not going to find a more mysterious and thorough world than the one in The New Sun. No character sits you down and exposition dumps how the world works, you read a chapter about Tarzan holograms and you think to yourself "does this story take place in the fucking future?"

[sage No.22421998]

>>22419420
Can't even name a single book he likes. How pathetic.

[Anonymous No.22422014]

>>22421966
Are you telling that the guys that come from ships in the sky may be aliens and that the people with metal limbs may be robots? Whoah

[Anonymous No.22422046]

>>22418873
It gets better, trust me. Things pick up once he crosses the bridge into that other part of the city or whatever, sorry I need to re-read. To miss on what the other 3 books have to offer because of the slow start of the first one would be such a shame, anon.
>>22418878
Fuck off. OP don't listen to this guy, he's in bad faith or just doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Anonymous No.22422056]

>>22418945
Those have to be Asheville girls

[Anonymous No.22422091]

>>22421966
Yeah this, it really rewards patience and focus. And once you start to find out WHAT exactly the world is and what exactly happened to make it that way, it gets even more interesting and things you read earlier start to take on new implications and become more clear, and new questions begin to bubble up too. Also the words Wolfe uses as well as his prose, while obviously not earth shattering, definitely make BotNS a lot more rich, colorful, and strange. I found it very intellectually stimulating, in more ways than one.

[Anonymous No.22422148]

>>22422091
>found it very intellectually stimulating, in more ways than one.
What ways?

[Anonymous No.22422193]

>>22422148
In the way that it made me feel like I was putting a puzzle together, in the sense that it forced me to imagine wild and interesting things, it raises interesting epistemological, ontological and ethical questions at points and questions about political theory and sociology at others, I found myself learning new words and concepts as I read through it, and there's other things I could get into but aren't coming to mind right now. It's a pretty rich experience if you let yourself get into it.

[Anonymous No.22422210]

>>22418873
Kino title and cover so I might pick it up just based off that

[Anonymous No.22422217]

>>22420953
Gormenghast is cool. It's not even really SFF, it's more about a bunch of grotesque freaks wandering around a spooky castle. Very atmospheric, and Peake's prose is excellent if you like environmental descriptions.

[Anonymous No.22422221]

>>22421966
I was referring to the fact that nothing fucking interesting happens in the book, not at the hints or the story of the world
>>22422046
I've already started the second book anon, I'm not going to give up yet I'm just disappointed that everyone is raving about this series so much and the first book is (overall) quite disappointing
>>22422091
We'll see anon, we'll see
>>22422210
I unironically did the same thing

[Anonymous No.22422228]

>>22422217
It's in my library so I'll obviously try it out

[Anonymous No.22422246]

>>22422221
>unironically
Oh, so you are just retarded. That's why.

[Anonymous No.22422252]

>>22422221
>everyone is raving about this series so much and the first book is (overall) quite disappointing
Yeah I did have kind of a similar reaction, although not nearly as strong as yours obviously. I don't know if you expected more action or what, but even going forward you're really not going to get a lot of that out this saga, dawg (though it certainly is there). It's a lot more about reading between the lines, appreciating the sounds and guessed-at meanings of words and names and just letting them wash over you, and learning about this fantastical world and its inhabitants. Truly, if the first book was that disappointing to you and none of that sounds that appealing, I would suggest not wasting your time and dropping BotNS because, while it does "pick up", it's not going to drastically deviate from the formula you're seeing in the first book.

[Anonymous No.22422255]

>>22422246
yup

[Anonymous No.22422256]

wtf is this reddit tier thread

[Anonymous No.22422266]

>>22422221
>I've already started the second book anon
Yeah my bad man, I re-read your post and figured that out after I'd posted that. Give yourself another 30 pages or so and then you should honestly just read something else if it's not getting its hooks into you any deeper.

[Anonymous No.22422391]

>>22422252
no I wasn't talking so much about action and fighting but about events related to the story. At the beginning of the book Vodalus is the first element that causes Severian to want to abandon the guild and seems to be the focal point together with the events with Thecla that cause the beginning of the "quest" and the incipit to go from point A to point B. Now about halfway through the book Agia appears, and everything that happens with Agia seems like a set of random and disjointed events disconnected from the plot that continues until the end of the book. My fear, if you can call it that, and that the rest of the series is continuing of "this happens".
It's the best way i can express myself since I'm retarted.
>>22422266
Yea I'm not gonna give up yet since the the wasn't BAD or boring it was just a let down

[Anonymous No.22422439]

>>22422391
>no I wasn't talking so much about action and fighting but about events related to the story. At the beginning of the book Vodalus is the first element that causes Severian to want to abandon the guild and seems to be the focal point together with the events with Thecla that cause the beginning of the "quest" and the incipit to go from point A to point B. Now about halfway through the book Agia appears, and everything that happens with Agia seems like a set of random and disjointed events disconnected from the plot that continues until the end of the book. My fear, if you can call it that, and that the rest of the series is continuing of "this happens".
It's the best way i can express myself since I'm retarted.
Nah man I know exactly what you're saying, and no, I would say things become much more tied together in the last two books, although maybe not in the way you'd want or expect. Part of this is because A) Severian is a human being writing from memory, B) That just seems to be Wolfe's writing style in these books, things that seem arbitrary and disjointed now are often revealed to be much less so, and C) There is an element of "naturalism" and "fate" in these stories, so yes there truly are events that are just arbitrary and there for the sake of them happening at all, but I wouldn't say that's the majority of what happens in the books by all means.

[Anonymous No.22422616]

Thanks anon for giving me your opinion, for now i think i'll keep reading (as i said it's neither bad nor boring), it's nice to find here someone who is actually interested in books and is able to write more than four words. Have a good one anon

[Anonymous No.22422630]

>>22422616
yo anon to whom are you responding, my bro?

[Anonymous No.22422716]

>>22422630
To >>22422439 but it applies to everyone in here who actually tried to talk about the book

[Anonymous No.22422744]

>>22422716
Oh nice, nice, I figured as much but I just had to get that sweet little (You) dopamine hit my sir. Anyway yeah no problem, I hope you enjoy your journey. Coincidentally, I actually just got Shadow and Claw in the mail about 10 minutes ago. I've never actually taken a fine toothed comb and read the books, only heard them on audio, so I'm very excited to really dissect this bitch.

[Anonymous No.22422823]

>>22421706
>Baiting or filtered?
Take a wild fucking guess.

[Anonymous No.22422894]

>>22422744
Good reading then anon

[Anonymous No.22422976]

>>22422744
>only heard them on audio
Goes without saying

[Anonymous No.22423083]

>>22422976
Kek

[Anonymous No.22423126]

>>22422256
Oh no people are actually talking about literature and not being needlessly aggressive or bitchy towards each other. Must be reddit.

[Anonymous No.22423159]

did i get it

[Anonymous No.22423197]

>>22423159
Why did you just slapped together a collection of scenes?

[Anonymous No.22423287]

>>22418873
>Am I retarded or am I missing something?
Both. Stick to comics.

[Anonymous No.22423310]

>>22418945
>this happens, then this happens, then this happens
Nothing of the sort. The books are a veritable tapestry of plot threads which are all resolved beautifully ... just not in the same volume in which they're started.
In reading this series, you must often refer back to earlier volumes to remind yourself what happened.
>I don't find it atmospheric, descriptive or even really remarkable in any way.
Name a more evocative, atmospheric or original sci-fi novel. I'll wait.

[Anonymous No.22423320]

>>22420735
>Therse
What did he mean by this?

[Anonymous No.22423325]

>>22423159
Yes you did anon, yes you did.

[Anonymous No.22423331]

>>22423159
LOL kind of. Also I would say I didn't get the Dune comparison until I finished the entire Book of the New Sun. Once you read all 4 books, you realize that you just read Dune: But Better and actually well written. I love the idea of Dune but Frank Herbert couldn't write his way out of a toilet (he was retarded and we feel very, very sorry for him).

[Anonymous No.22423344]

>>22422252
>I don't know if you expected more action or what, but even going forward you're really not going to get a lot of that
There are executions, a duel, a taxicab race, an assault on a castle, a battle with a giant, encounters with alien predators and hostile fauna ... oh, and a fucking war.
If there's one thing this series does not remotely lack, it's action.

[Anonymous No.22423385]

>>22423344
Yes, but I would say it doesn't get more action heavy until at least the second book. And even then Gene Wolfe's writing style is such that there are callbacks and diversions and allusions to things from the past or the future in the middle of action sequences. So the action isn't always fluid and frenetic like I think most readers are used to. It'll be something like "the alzabo drew back its bloody head and I saw something. There are times in a man's life when he realizes that fear is the messenger, which brings to mind one particular event...2 pages later...I noticed the alzabo had been bleeding from where I wounded it in its throat...". That's just an example I made up, but do you know what I mean?

[Anonymous No.22423391]

>>22423385
Sounds like you don't like reading at all.

[Anonymous No.22423405]

>>22423385
also, and I think more importantly, the best this series has to offer does not come in the form of action or violence or gore. It's not cheap. The best of it is the themes, the poetic dialogues and passages, the strange, phantasmagoric and anachronistic descriptions and word choices, the atmosphere and the world, the confusion and resolution, the questioning of the tale that Severian is spinning. It's not something I would recommend for its action.

>>22423391
No you're right, I hate it.

[Anonymous No.22423574]

>>22423405
>No you're right, I hate it.
I don't know if you're being sarcastic or what, but I think that anon has a point. Every time I begin thinking the way you are right now, I take a break from reading, and when I come back, I enjoy it a whole lot more. The way you're describing the book makes it sound awesome, and yet you somehow want to make it come across as the worse for it?

[Anonymous No.22423629]

>>22423574
>yet you somehow want to make it come across as the worse for it?
What? When did I say that? Go back to my original post where I said "I don't know if you expected more action or what, but even going forward you're really not going to get a lot of that". I was defending the book but I was just pointing out that it's not first and foremost about action, and that Wolfe's style of writing action sequences isn't always the most straightforward. How did you get that I was trying to make it come across as worse?

[Anonymous No.22423662]

>>22423629
My bad, I thought you were OP.

[Anonymous No.22423690]

>>22423662
Oh yeah no problem, we were both confused. Yeah nah man I love BotNS and can't wait to re-read it again and get on to Urth of the New Sun then to the other Solar Cycle series. It's become probably my favorite science-fiction/fantasy series, although that's not saying much because I really haven't read that much sci-fi.

[Anonymous No.22423776]

I love it so far (been listening to the audiobooks narrated by Roy Avers). Only trouble I have is recalling character's names (I know and can differentiate the characters just fine) and realizing what exactly is being described when Severian explains what he's witnessing of old technology, for instance the towers being rockets or the painting being an astronaut.
I'm on Sword of the Lictor now.

[Anonymous No.22423847]

Anyone want to share a paragraph or two of the novel? I hear he has a very impressive prose style but have never stumbled upon the book.

[Anonymous No.22423910]

>>22423776
That was me too, Roy Avers made a great show of it. Guy's got a very good voice for it, methinks. Did you also listen for free on Youtube? Cause FYI there are some pretty high quality free recordings of all 4 books on there.

[Anonymous No.22423913]

>>22423910
Yup! It's been pretty good so far!

[Anonymous No.22423952]

>>22423913
Based. Doesn't it feel so damn good to find an actual good quality audiobook of a good quality book for FREE on YOUTUBE? Damn dude we live in blessed times, no? It's cool that you're having the same introduction to it as I did. Do you think you'll re-read afterwards to get a better feel for the book? At least for me, the audiobook format doesn't really allow for really chewing on the words, and in a series like this, I think that's mighty important

[Anonymous No.22423963]

>>22423952
>>22423910
>audiobook
You people disgust me

[Anonymous No.22423966]

>>22423952
I'll definitely re-listen. I have trouble focusing and reading for long spans of time, which leads me to getting distracted as I read. I listen during my work hours as I'm often left alone. What's nice about the audiobook format is I can just rewind the 10 or 20 seconds I zoned out and relisten to grasp what's just happen and draw context from there. Eventually I'm sure I'll go back and do note-taking, but purely for leisure I've been having a good time listening.
>>22423963
I fucking knew the moment I posted that somebody would come in to call me a secondary.

[Anonymous No.22423985]

Ive 30 pages left to finish the first book and Im liking it so far. As people here are saying, the main value of it is the poetic element. Im even writting some sentences down just because how good are they to describe some stuff happening.

I didnt really get hook until the main character leaves the tower but they dark atmosphere of the places were really cool. For some reason every scene of the book that runs in my head is set at night, like some destroyed earth where you cant see the sun. I dont know how far im from the truth. I guess there will be more lore explanations in the rest of the books.

Also I didnt understand at all that chapter where they are being chased away by chariots or something like that. At all.

[Anonymous No.22423990]

>>22423963
I spit on you. You're gatekeeping at the inner gates. Gatekeep the outermost gate if you want to keep normies out so bad. We're enjoying the book same as you, scum. Hell I just bought the actual book so I can read back through it for a deeper experience. But for a first run of a fun, unimportant book like BotNS, I'm gonna listen for free, fucker.

[Anonymous No.22423998]

>>22423985
>Also I didnt understand at all that chapter where they are being chased away by chariots or something like that. At all.
That's part of the fun of it. There will be a lot of moments where you're going to be like "what the fuck? I don't understand what just happened at all" even if you go back over it again. Just go with it, let the confusion and wonder wash you down river to the next page and the next and the next. In time things will take on a new light.

[Anonymous No.22424008]

>>22418873
I am definitely enjoying this book so far, but it hasn't been as good as Fifth Head of Cerberus IMO. Does it get better?

[Anonymous No.22424121]

>>22424008
First book is a bit of a drag compared to the rest. A lot of the latter half seems like filler but it all pays off.

[Anonymous No.22424132]

>>22424008
>Does it get better?
Yes. Without hesitation, without equivocation. Granted I haven't read the FIfth Head of Cerberus, I have read all of BotNS and it's gooder than hell, boy.

[Anonymous No.22424175]

>>22423966
I called you nothing. You know you are retarded just by using audiobooks in general.
>>22423990
I'm not gatekeeping shit, retard. Try to get your (you) 's somewhere else.

[Anonymous No.22424183]

>>22424008
If you really liked the first one then it gets better.
There is very little to like in the rest of the series if you didn't love at least one or two aspects of the first one.

[Anonymous No.22424184]

>>22424175
Don't be facetious you know what you were doing. Quit trying to stir shit, either make an argument or get the fuck out.

[Anonymous No.22424191]

>>22424175
You just gave me one, fool. Hobbit brain. Now, since this is a thread about Book of the New Sun, let's not get off topic and turn this into a boring back-and-forth of insults, such is the fate for many a /lit/ thread, but it won't be this one's. What about Gene Wolfe's masterpiece do you feel makes it not good for a first time listen-through?

[Anonymous No.22424218]

>>22424184
Can't even argument with someone who didn't even read the text. If all you want is more topics to shitpost about then all you have to do is read the wikipedia summary (which you did, of course).

[Anonymous No.22424253]

>>22424191
You wouldn't even get it. It would be like explaining color to a blind person.

[Anonymous No.22424394]

>>22424183
I would definitely say i like aspects of the first book, but it hasnt all clicked together yet.

[Anonymous No.22425045]

>>22423159
Kek

[Anonymous No.22425051]

Can we try to not ruin one of the few good threads on the board with petty insults?

[Anonymous No.22425585]

Gene Wolfe is less popular than Barthelme....

[Anonymous No.22425746]

>>22425585
grim.

[Anonymous No.22426580]

>>22423985
>every scene of the book that runs in my head is set at night
You're correct, the sun had dimmed to the point where day is more like dusk and night is pitch-black. IIRC there are mentions of the stars always being visible. I think it gives the story a lot of flavor when you remember it all takes place in a murky rusty hue due to the sun being red and the moon green.

[Anonymous No.22426767]

>>22425585
Barthelme is widely read in universities.

[Anonymous No.22427407]

>>22425585
>less popular
>graph shows in recent years Wolfe is more popular than Bathelme

[Anonymous No.22427446]

>>22418873
You're not missing anything. BOTNS is overrated trash for people who think books should be an intellectual puzzle to be solved.

[Anonymous No.22427449]

>>22424183
disagree, was bored by the first but still find the third or fourth to have been one of his best

[Anonymous No.22427668]

>>22427449
Then you liked it for all the wrong reasons to begin with.

[Anonymous No.22427879]

>>22427668
>>22427449
Care to articulate?

[Anonymous No.22427994]

>>22427879
There are very specific things to like about the book. Liking it for other reasons would be to misread the book or to be an insufficient reader.

[Anonymous No.22428118]

>>22427994
Ao you decide the right reasons from the wrong ones?

[Anonymous No.22428130]

>>22427994
So you decide the right resons from the wrong ones?

[Anonymous No.22428135]

>>22428130
The reasons are self evident once you read the book.

[Anonymous No.22428168]

>>22428135
>he doesn't understand text, context, and subtext
SAD

[Anonymous No.22428183]

>>22428168
Sure