[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 26 KB, 300x300, epic-fantasy-scene.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2230787 No.2230787 [Reply] [Original]

Is there any well-written epic fantasy?

I've tried ASOIAF and Prince of Nothing and both were pretty awful (for different reasons).

Is there anything that's good in this genre?

>> No.2230796

Define epic.

>> No.2230795

People who know how to write don't waste their time writing about dragons and dwarves and shit.

So,no.

>> No.2230798

>>2230795

That's a shame. Becuase dwarves and dragons and kings and winzards and shit are kinda fun, but I can't stand reading something so awful.

I'd settle for above average, honestly.

>> No.2230801

>>2230796

Like, politics, worldwide (or at least far-reaching) significance to the plot, that sort of thing.

>> No.2230808
File: 21 KB, 268x400, gormenghast.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2230808

Only read the first two. They stand alone perfectly, and form one of the greatest works of fantasy literature you'll ever read. After that, Peake intended to launch into a full series spanning the length of the main character's life, so the third book starts down that road. Not to be considered a 'trilogy' at any rate.

But yeah.

Peake is purple prose done right, and some of the best use of omniscient perspective you'll ever encounter.

>> No.2230809

>>2230801
There's really nothing. You can try some extended Tolkien or surrealism or magic realism, but I've never heard of straight up well-written sword/dragon fantasy.

>> No.2230817

How 'bout actual epics?

Paradise Lost
Chapman's translation of the Iliad & Odyssey
Gavin Douglas's translation of the Aeneid

The vocabulary is a little archaic in these, especially the latter two, but epics are supposed to be about a grand, distant and idealised past, and archaism adds to that.
Here's a taste of what the Odyssey is like, a section translated by Ezra Pound:
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15426

>> No.2230823

>>2230808

OP here

Gormenghast is brilliant, yes, but not really what I had in mind with the term 'epic fantasy'.

But yeah, I've read 'em. Good stuff.

>>2230809

Huh. That's a shame. That seems kind of strange. You'd think at least a few would be able to explore this genre and write it well. Ah well.

>> No.2230826

>>2230808

Basically, there's this massive sprawling castle-city called Gormenghast, which is lorded over by the line of the Groans. Gormenghast is heavily caste-stratified, and everything that anyone does at pretty much any waking hour is heavily codified in exacting centuries-old 'Rituals'.

Into this comes an upstart kitchen worker, named Steerpike, with designs at power -- and throughout the course of the books, we're working our way through the adolescence of the latest and last of the Groan line, Titus, for whom all the endless ritual isn't enough.

Lots of very likeable larger-than-life characters (Prunesquallor and Flay are the fucking shit), excellent prose, amazing atmosphere, etc etc. Check it out.

>> No.2230834

>>2230823

Oh. Okay then.

You might check out a book called "Thunderer", by Felix Gilman. It's not exactly ASOIAF-level armies-on-the-march "epic", but it stuck in my mind as pretty damn good when I read it a few years ago.

>> No.2230836

>>2230817

I suppose that's an option. I've read excerpts from all three for classes and I remember them fondly. Particularly Paradise Lost.

>> No.2230840

>>2230834

Hm, I've never heard of this. It sounds interesting. It's the only fantasy novel I've ever read about described with the term "Dickensian" anywhere near it, so that's something.

Might check it out.

>> No.2230850

>>2230840

If you like Dickensian, you could also check out Susanna Clarke's "Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrell". It's one of those few books that's new and lauded by critics because it's genuinely good. Manages to pull off the Jane Austen-style prose without ever getting too obnoxious or twee with it.

...I've just realized my favorite fantasy books are almost all these comedies-of-manner set in some kind of stratified urban environment.

Huh.

>> No.2230858

>>2230836

I loved Paradise Lost. It's worth the hassle. A good annotated edition (plus or minus critical essays) is the way to go. Inferno is also great.

>> No.2230859

>>2230850

Ah yeah, I've actually heard good things about that too. Forgot about it.

>> No.2230871

the genre is varied and there's discussion as to which fantasy books can be considered

a few sure ones:
Stormlight Archives series (Way of Kings)
Wheel of Time series
Mistborn trilogy
gritty and pulpy but I think it can be considered epic fantasy because of scale: Black Company Chronicles

other debatable epic fantasy works:
The Name of the Wind (the author claims he doesn't view it as epic fantasy)

>>2230823
you're dumb as bricks if you draw conclusions on one single post

>>2230795
people who know how to write and aren't pretentious enough to scuff at an amazing genre that allows for world-building and elements that affect social structures, architecture, so much

stop being a hipster and read them, then give me reasons why the ones I just mentioned are anything other than very well written books

>> No.2230876

>>2230871

Your attitude and defensiveness makes me weary of your suggestions.

>> No.2230880

Can't we just have one thread about fantasy without some arrogant fuckwit flying over and dropping rotten eggs?

>> No.2230881

>>2230876
what defensiveness? that I'm tired of faggots on this board shitposting in any thread related to this genre, saying fantasy is not literature?
got me there
it's fucking stories, and there are good authors

the same people that do this are those that post their own never-to-be-published novellas here asking for "valid criticism"

>> No.2230882

>>2230871
>wheel of time

disregard this mouthbreather op, he has clearly no idea what well-written means.

>> No.2230886

>>2230882

Yeah...

>> No.2230889

>>2230881
>what defensiveness?

>> No.2230892

OP I'll go ahead and assume you've read Discworld stuff?

>> No.2230895

>>2230882
It's cool that you have your opinions but let OP make his own.

I think it's what he's looking for, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it.The only "quality" argument against this series I've ever seen mentioned was its lenght. But whatever

>>2230889
>greentexting

>>2230892
they're more satire, I love them myself but again, didn't post it because I don't think it's what he's asking for

>> No.2230896

>>2230892

Some, yeah. They're charming, but I don't think I could read very many.

>> No.2230899 [DELETED] 
File: 30 KB, 420x690, 1095-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2230899

Pic Related. It's like a cross between the Narnia books and LORT, only better than both.

>> No.2230903

>>2230895
You obviously like it, so what argument can I possibly present that you would consider "quality"? Thankfully, OP can recognize shitty writing. OP, just read the first page of that shit series and you'll see.

>> No.2230905
File: 30 KB, 420x690, 1095-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2230905

Pic related. Its like a cross between the Narnia books and LOTR, only better than both.

>> No.2230909

>>2230795
>he thinks fantasy is dragons and dwarves
oh wow

OP, you should probably read some Robert E. Howard, Lovecraft, Moorcock, Cook, Leiber, etc. Google "low fantasy", "sword and sorcery" if you want some cool stuff that isn't stereotypical.

>> No.2230911

>>2230895
>>2230896

Yeah pretty much. I only brought it up because I'm sitting here looking at my shelf going, "What's fantasy and isn't mediocre."

>> No.2230916

>>2230909

Appreciate the post, but what I'm looking for is high fantasy. From what I've come to understand, the terms epic and high fantasy are interchangeable.

At least according to Wikipedia. I'm a novice when it comes to all this stuff.

>> No.2230923

>>2230903
I don't want to call you a hipster but just because it's popular doesn't mean it's gratuitous filth like what Goodkind gets published

Personally I got into reading thanks to the Wheel of Time and I'd like to re-read it.

I'm not saying it's the best but I think you're just calling it as a reaction to it being commonly recommended.

>>2230916
the most clear example of what I think you're looking for is The Wheel of Time

as you can see from this thread opinions vary, and it's pretty long but if you like it you can easily enjoy that

>> No.2230927

I can't really think of anything that fits directly into your definition of epic fantasy that's particularly excellent.

The "Winds of the Forelands" series, for example, fits your definition of epic fantasy but isn't anything special. Of course, it also isn't a bad series - it's fun, with quite a few enjoyable characters. It won't make you sit up and take notice, but it's pleasant enough.

There's the Farseer and Tawny Man trilogies, which are actually very well-written with some great characters, but the politics in those are more political intrigue than huge schemes with far-reaching ramifications.

There's the First Law series, which is . . . interesting. Its major theme, "no one gets what they deserve," makes for some unpleasant reading at times. I feel I should recommend it, without ever being quite certain how I feel about it. It squeaks along the edge of what you're looking for.

>> No.2230930

>>2230923
>I'm not saying it's the best but I think you're just calling it as a reaction to it being commonly recommended.

No, I'm saying it as a reaction of having read the first book and seen the shit writing, which is exactly the opposite of what OP asked for. You can enjoy it all you want, but that doesn't make the prose good.

>> No.2230934

>>2230930
then I recommend you skip to where Sanderson picks up the story after Jordan died, he's definitely better

>> No.2230942

>>2230916
Terry Pratchett

>> No.2231620

A Name of the Wind is excellent as well as The Way of Kings and The Wheel of Time series.

Also you could try thomas covenant the unbeliever I like the writing but the main character is so twisted it makes it hard for me to read.

>> No.2231627

Also the Lies of Locke Lamora is excellent and different from most modern fantasy.

>> No.2231641

>>2230787
>Is there any well-written epic fantasy?

define well-written

>> No.2231643

>>2231641

Up to the standards of literary fiction. Comparable to well-regarded authors.

>> No.2231646

To truly enjoy the fantasy genre I suggest you entertain the mindset of a 15 year old boy.

Your main requirements should be swordplay, boobs, magic and dragons.

Anything else is trivial and lame.

>> No.2231655

>>2231643

That's not a definition, that's actually very meaningless appeal to the masses. You might as well ask a teenage girls what they think is the best if you simply use other people's opinions instead of your own

Well-regarded authors? Well-regarded by whom? And what makes them well-written?

Joyce is well-regarded by many, not by all....
Here is an example:
>Sir Tristram, violer d'amores, fr'over the short sea, had passen-core rearrived from North Armorica on this side the scraggy isthmus of Europe Minor to wielderfight his penisolate war: nor had topsawyer's rocks by the stream Oconee exaggerated themselse to Laurens County's gorgios while they went doublin their mumper all the time

This is what critics and academics love. Is this good writing to you?

>> No.2231661

>>2230916

High Fantasy doesn't even necessarily have dragons and dwarves and shit, its more about the scope of the story. High Fantasy tends to be about the fate of the world and nations, focusing on wars and suchlike through the eyes of characters who are important in such things.

As to the Wheel of Time, I enjoy it a lot but I wouldnt say the writing is particularly stellar (same deal with SoIaF for me). I'm generally indifferent to the quality of "writing" if the story, characterisation and such are well executed, though.

Way of Kings is definitely worth checking out. I wouldn't say Name of the Wing and it's sequel (Kingkiller Chronicles) are High Fantasy. Although there is magic and shit, it's more about the personal adventures of one extraordinary individual and, so far at least, he doesn't really affect much of the world beyond himself.

>> No.2231676

>>2231655

I'm not trying to give a definitive definition. I'm trying to give you a better idea of what I regard as well-written in order to make recommending things easier. Trying to actually define "well-written" concretely, without appealing to resemblance or what-have-you, is way outside the scope of this thread and my abilities.

>Well-regarded authors? Well-regarded by whom?

Academics.

>And what makes them well-written?

I don't know or I can't explain it. Possibly both.

>This is what critics and academics love. Is this good writing to you?

Yes.

>> No.2231693

>>2231676
>This is what critics and academics love. Is this good writing to you?

>Yes.

Why? It's stupid gibberish. Do you simply follow what the high-priests tell you?


Anyway, you should read the Gormenghast trilogy, or "Little, big"

they are all very well written...they may put you to sleep, but they are fantasy and literature

>> No.2231714

>>2231693

>Why? It's stupid gibberish.

No it isn't. It's difficult to parse, but it isn't gibberish.

>Anyway, you should read the Gormenghast trilogy, or "Little, big"

Already read Gormenghast as I said earlier. I'll look into Little, big.

>> No.2231719

>>2230787
Paradise Lost is what you are looking for op.

>> No.2231720

>>2231714

I dunno, but for me if something is written so as to be difficult to understand it is poorly written, if something is written in a way that is easy to understand, and conveys the events/feeling/tone of the scene well it is well written. I understand that with older works there is some evolution of language and such, but still...

I'm not an Academic or anything though

>> No.2231721

>>2231714
>It's difficult to parse, but it isn't gibberish.

It's poorly written is what it is.
He could have said that much clearly and much more eloquently instead of using gutterspeak.

>> No.2231727

>>2231720

That's a really low standard. One that says Twilight is well written but Ulysses isn't. You're probably okay with that, I'm just trying to illustrate for you what it is you're saying.

>>2231721

>He could have said that much clearly and much more eloquently instead of using gutterspeak.

I don't know what you mean by gutterspeak.

>> No.2231732

>>2231727

>One that says Twilight is well written

No it doesn't at all. Clearly you have never suffered through twilight in order to know what you are complaining about.

Also: Something can be a good book, novel or story and still not be written well

>> No.2231743

>>2231732

>No it doesn't at all. Clearly you have never suffered through twilight in order to know what you are complaining about.

Seems pretty clear to me:

>"You know Bella, Jacob?" Lauren asked—in what I imagined was an insolent tone—from across the fire.

>"We've sort of known each other since I was born," he laughed, smiling at me again.

>"How nice." She didn't sound like she thought it was nice at all, and her pale, fishy eyes narrowed.

>"Bella," she called again, watching my face carefully, "I was just saying to Tyler that it was too bad none of the Cullens could come out today. Didn't anyone think to invite them?" Her expression of concern was unconvincing.

>Also: Something can be a good book, novel or story and still not be written well

But if it's written terribly I can't enjoy it. That's why I said earlier that I'd settle for above average. I can't stomach terrible writing like ASOIAF though. It's distracting and just... bad.

>> No.2231758

>>2231727

Not the guy you were responding to, but I'd argue that good works can be either easy to understand or subtle and challenging. Great works are both, and are a source of inspiration regardless of a person's expertise in the given field.

Twilight is bad for reasons that have little to do with the clarity of its prose.

>> No.2231762

Strongly seconding Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, in terms of quality writing. Reads like a good 19th century novelist, ala Robert Louis Stevenson. Maybe not *quite* as epic as you're looking for however.

Also throwing Harry Turtledove's Darkness series out there. Essentially an analogue of World War II, but in a fantasy setting. Highly epic but not amazingly well written... but better than ASOIF (and I'm in the camp that can't get through one of those books, they're terrible). Keep in mind most critics and academics will decry fantasy writing as poor, period.

>> No.2231826
File: 152 KB, 299x506, Three_Gardens_of_the_Moon.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2231826

has anyone ever read or even heard about this series?

i keep having it recommended to me.

>> No.2231842

>>2231826

They talk about it all the time on /tg/, or at least they used to.

It can be hard to get into, as there is an already pre established world that the characters are, obviously, very familiar with and Erikson doesn't hold your hand at all in helping you figure out just what is going on. For example, even with how many books the series is now how magic even works is a bit unclear.

This can make it kinda hard to get whats happening, although it does make the books excellent to re-read as you will pick up on many subtleties you missed the first time round. Also every character is EPIC in some fashion. if they dont start out as gods or whatever they will attain some level of incredible power as the book series goes on. The Deck of Dragons and Ascendant thing is also probably one of my favourite god/pantheon concepts I've ever read.

All in all though the series is fantastic and I recommend it to anyone who enjoys fantasy, it just takes a bit of effort to get into.

>> No.2232779

A new day, a new bump.

>> No.2232786

Derp, doesn't know at all if this is the kind of thing you mean, but I guess I'd recommend His Dark Materials, by Philip Pullman? I guess it's sort of fantasy. Pretty original though, not dragons and elves generic-fantasy-ish.
I haven't read the whole thread so maybe I'm being a moron posting something again or missing the whole point of the thread, but yeah, good luck.