/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21355678]

So what's the deal with Evola, Guenon, et al? I tried reading their texts during a speed binge and they seemed needlessly mystical, esoteric, and inaccessible.

It seems to me that the paths of "magic" or "tradition" they're describing are basically rigpa/satori/christ-consciousness/insert your own special snowflake term for transcendental unity here, obfuscated in purposefully obtuse and flowery language. They seem to be conflating spiritual intelligence with worldly intelligence, and seem to imply that to be at X spiritual level, you need to be at a corresponding Y worldly level. It seem obvious when you read something like "Zen at War" that a zen 'master' can achieve unity with the One, the Godhead, however you'd like to describe it, while still viewing the world through his own worldly lens, tainted by the viewpoints of his own culture and traditions.

[Anonymous No.21355734]

>>21355678
filtered
Unironically. They even explain why they're vague, and it's a bit obvious because of the fact that the Universal Truth is necessarily above explanation.

[Anonymous No.21355748]

>>21355678
I keep hearing people say the Trads are vague, but I don't find them to be so at all. Have you people not read any serious philosophy before hand? If Guénon is vague, what would you say if you read Heidegger, or Plato's late works, or Aristotle's Metaphysics?

[࿇ C Œ M G E N V S ࿇ !KNDY/Ar.iI No.21355759]

>>21355678


PRECURSIVE IDEOLOGUES OF THE FALSE RELIGION OF THE ANTICHRIST.

[Anonymous No.21355824]

>>21355734
I think it was obvious that from my mention of a speed binge and the interminable use of "seem" that I haven't delved deeply into their works. Feel free to eviscerate and elucidate.

Why does it need to be vague? The most cogent texts I've read have acknowledged that the idea of Universal Truth/unity with the Godhead/again, insert your own flavour of the same thing here, is indeed vague, and can only be apprehended first-hand. But, they are eminently clear and very practical on the steps to get there, and are emphatic on it being something that requires continous practice and discipline; it's not something you can become attuned with simply from reading flowery words in a book.

[Anonymous No.21355840]

>>21355678
Try crystal next time. I promise you it will click.

[Anonymous No.21355856]

>>21355759
t. escapee from godlikeproductions.com

[Anonymous No.21355871]

>>21355678
>I tried reading their texts during a speed binge
> t. drugged out materialist hylic seeking transcendent knowledge while the dopamine flows but is inevitably filtered once the high withers
This is quite the pathetic attempt anon. Drugs are bad for you and they will do nothing but darken your understanding of the world

>>21355759
Touch grass. You are unwell

[Anonymous No.21356022]

>>21355871
t. has never done speed

[Anonymous No.21356043]

>>21355871
>Drugs are bad for you and they will do nothing but darken your understanding of the world
Do you even transcend but include bro?

[࿇ C Œ M G E N V S ࿇ !KNDY/Ar.iI No.21356091]

>t. escapee from godlikeproductions.com

>Touch grass. You are unwell

[Anonymous No.21356131]

>>21356091
off the charts levels of reprehensibility

[Anonymous No.21356159]

>>21355678
>doesn't understand a controlled vocabulary
>blames the book
ngmi

[Anonymous No.21356174]

>>21356159
>couches inquisitiveness in banal 4chan terms
so this is the power of guenon

[Anonymous No.21356185]

>>21356091
>namefag
yikes

[Anonymous No.21356353]

>>21356174
See? Told you you weren't going to make it

[Anonymous No.21356362]

Haven't read Evola but if anything Guenon is the opposite of vague, he uses terms exactly and when he can't rationally define something further he explains why he can't do so. One of his big points is that the truth is ultimately supra-rational, if you can't accept this then don't bother reading him.

[Anonymous No.21356801]

>>21356174
>doesn't want it in 4chan terms
>asks 4chan
>>21355759
What's the black eye emanating rays on the side?

[Anonymous No.21357255]

>>21355678
pbuh

[Anonymous No.21357900]

>>21356091
>Cumgenus
>Cumgenius
Are you the genius of cum? How does this work? Do you slurp so much of it you are a connosieur now?
CUM-GENUS AHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Anonymous No.21358036]

offtopic post but seeing as this is on page 10 and i dont want to make a new thread ill post it here.
i want to try to understand guenon and sufism as a philosophical beginner
i was thinking of doing it like so:
greeks -> romans -> islamic thinkers (avicenna/averroes/ghazali) -> guenon
is it necessary to delve into the post roman western intellectual tradition like the christian thinkers or can one leave it at the romans?
thanks

[Anonymous No.21358055]

[Anonymous No.21358057]

[Anonymous No.21358058]

[Anonymous No.21358060]

[Anonymous No.21358062]

[Anonymous No.21358241]

>>21355678
Literally just filtered

[Anonymous No.21358322]

[Anonymous No.21359536]

>>21358036
>is it necessary to delve into the post roman western intellectual tradition like the christian thinkers or can one leave it at the romans?
It is not necessary if you want to understand Islamic thinkers but only if you want to understand western theology

[Anonymous No.21359630]

>>21359536
thank you

[Anonymous No.21359650]

>>21355678
>So what's the deal with Evola, Guenon, et al?
They serve a purpose for Westerners who can't understand Eastern philosophical/religious concepts without having them filtered through a Western lens. For people who are intellectually capable of engaging with these ideas directly, just go to the source material rather than wasting your time on middlemen.

[Anonymous No.21360776]

>>21355734
kek, fpbp

[Anonymous No.21362043]

>>21358322
no kshatriya no brama no hierarchy
sorry bro

[Anonymous No.21363492]

>>21355734
This

>>21355748
Ya they aren't vague. Guénon is almost too rigorous and strict in his definitions.

Guénon is more abstract, and Evola is more practical (ex: he gets into technical details for initiatic realization). They aren't vague though.

[Anonymous No.21363497]

>>21355824
>it's not something you can become attuned with simply from reading flowery words in a book.
Both authors emphasize this. The flowery words can help to convey hidden meanings, which come before the plane of rational-discursive thought.

[Anonymous No.21363563]

>>21355678
They're trash. They're shilled here as a psyop to lead White men astray.

[Anonymous No.21363743]

>>21359650
>For people who are intellectually capable of engaging with these ideas directly, just go to the source material rather than wasting your time on middlemen.
Agreed. Everyone should just read the Ashtavakra Gita before becoming encumbered with the traditionalists. The book is incredibly clear, direct, comprehensive yet short, and can be the start and end of your spiritual inquiry and seeking. It near perfectly synthesizes the main point of Advaita and Buddhism, and by extension western traditions like Sufi and Christian mysticism.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ashtavakra_Gita#The_Song
For anyone interested, this translation is good enough. I also recommend the Thomas Byrom translation.

[Anonymous No.21363994]

>>21363743
What's your opinion on the Bart Marshall translation? I can link the epub to you if you haven't read his.

[Anonymous No.21364053]

>>21358241
absolute chad

[Anonymous No.21364457]

>>21363994
I've heard it's good, but I'm still yet to read it in full. I compared several of my favorite sections/verses, some are worse some are better but it seems good enough to recommend. Due to how the original text is, many translations tend to be similar and clear too, but subtle differences of phrasing can still effect your understanding/intuition. In any case I'd say read the Marshall translation if you've got that one in mind, and during or after that compare it with other translations.

[Anonymous No.21364622]

>>21364457
>Due to how the original text is, many translations tend to be similar and clear too, but subtle differences of phrasing can still effect your understanding/intuition.
Exactly. Like any translation, some meaning gets lost (even if only slightly). But since you've read different translations, I'll take your word for it.

>In any case I'd say read the Marshall translation if you've got that one in mind, and during or after that compare it with other translations.
Makes it more difficult to fully compare when one doesn't know the original language. Still, I'll compare and intuitively understand what's the best way.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Here's the link for said Bart Marshall translation (for you and others interested):
https://easyupload.io/1xxofq

[Anonymous No.21364646]

>>21358322
Because you posted this image I can say with 100% certainty that you haven't read Guenon. I know this because I haven't read Guenon either, and that seems like an image I would post.

[Anonymous No.21364653]

>>21364646
lmao
anyway he does differentiate hierarchies. I think images like that are done just for the keks

[Anonymous No.21364698]

>>21355678
Oh ya? Which books did you read anon?

[Anonymous No.21364705]

>>21364622
>Makes it more difficult to fully compare when one doesn't know the original language.
I don't want to give you choice paralysis but if you're interested in the original language I recommend this version by Swami Nityaswarupananda too. It has a translation, commentary, and the original Sanskrit with word for word translations.
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.490169

[Anonymous No.21365101]

all the translations of them people recommend on this site are so ass, you need to read them in the original languages in order to really get them

[Anonymous No.21365523]

>>21355871
>t. sober puritanical spiritualist only interested in the divine as a way to feel personally superior

[Anonymous No.21365545]

How does Evola's scheme of the Hermetic Tradition fit in with Guénon's États multiples? i.e. red vs white symbols of completion?

[Anonymous No.21365553]

>>21358322
Another 65 IQ leftist BIPOC-created meme

[Anonymous No.21365567]

>>21365523
Yes.

[Anonymous No.21365570]

>>21359650
>just learn Hinduism in the original language
>just know everything about kaballah and the history of Western esotericism in every language
>just get initiated into multiple Eastern and Western Traditions and study Taoism in ancient Chinese
You idiot. That is why Guénon brings such value yet you fail to see it.

[Anonymous No.21365577]

What is the next step after the Guenon-Evola pill?

[Anonymous No.21365583]

>>21365567
Retarded egoism is the negative aspect of the chad meme archetype, obviously you must be a jung fan

[Anonymous No.21365603]

>>21365567
I'm no philosopher, but if that's the case then you're basically identical to the guy you were criticising, abstaining from drug use for a good feeling is basically the same as engaging in drug use for a good feeling.

[Anonymous No.21365616]

>>21365583
Yeah Jung is pretty cool

>>21365603
I know but I don't care, the weight of my contradictions don't drag me down. That's what it feels like to be a chad, you should try it out sometimes.

[Anonymous No.21365642]

>>21365616
You realize that in terms of spiritual attainment you are merely solidifying the ego and holding yourself back from development? Don't be a child.

[Anonymous No.21365650]

>>21365603
>abstaining from drug use for a good feeling is basically the same as engaging in drug use for a good feeling.
You jerk off to porn.

[Anonymous No.21365651]

>>21365642
Why do you think there is a contradiction, I'm not a buddhist. Ego fulfilment is important for my own spiritual quest.

[Anonymous No.21365731]

>>21365651
>Ego fulfilment
>spiritual quest
Essentially antonyms.

[Anonymous No.21365743]

>>21365731
Which means they are one and the same. Opposites resolve in essential unity, that's basic metaphysics. Contradiction is non-contradiction.

[Anonymous No.21365800]

>>21365743
Categorically false.

To restate:

No.

[Anonymous No.21365813]

>>21365800
Ok, makes sense. Thanks for your input

[Anonymous No.21365963]

>>21355759
>Modern new bad
>Tradition old good
Literally yes

[Anonymous No.21365986]

>>21365642
>holding yourself back
Who is this "yourself"? That would be the ego.

[Anonymous No.21366075]

>>21365650
A few times a week, sure, i also volunteer at a local food bank and pass money to tramps when i meet them, fella named Simon down by my local Tesco, became a born again Christian in 2005, has a pretty nasty rash on his legs.

Even if i am a turbo degenerate (which just by virtue of being here, i'm relatively sure we both count as), both of us are just living for pleasure, my understanding of hedonism isn't just wine filled orgies, it's living your life in a way to maximise pleasure, and in that sense me jerking off to porn and packing up excess stock for carehomes at the foodbank are both attempting to achieve the same thing, it makes me feel like a more moral person to chat to people like Simon and give him a few quid and volunteer at the food bank, and that feeling of morality gives me pleasure (as it does presumably, for you), as does having a wank, openly bragging about your superior morality isn't acting like a chad at all, the whole point of the original meme was mocking people who are neurotically self obsessed to the point where they believe that their walk broadcasts their self-image of being a pathetic virgin to the world.

>>21365616
>I know but I don't care, the weight of my contradictions don't drag me down. That's what it feels like to be a chad, you should try it out sometimes.

Like i said to the last guy, desperately broadcasting yourself for approval from a peer group isn't chad behaviour at all, if you're following a set of precepts because you believe it'll gain you social approval, you're not a chad and you're not a chad and you're not based, you're the exact opposite of what people use those terms to describe.

Like, why post about it? you didn't think you'd genuinely bring OP around to being able to understand, you just wanted to display that you fit the role of "le epic fascist", grow a pair.

[Anonymous No.21366209]

>>21355678
Where does Guénon talk about the environmental crisis?

[Anonymous No.21366412]

You know what party member I want but nobody has talked about? Imperial assassins. Just fucking imagine.

-Culexus assassin would be the strongest anti-chaos party member possible but would debuff your whole team and kill your psykers/Eldar
-Callidus could morph into different races and take some of their traits depending on the battle
-Eversor would be cool as shit but would be impossible to have as a teammate.
-Vindicare could possibly be a better spider than Yrilet

[Anonymous No.21366420]

>>21355678
White boys when they are made to go to church growing up. Just accept the Holy Catholic Faith like a mature grown up man and indulge in Christian mysticism instead of cow worshiping Indian drivel

[Anonymous No.21366805]

>>21355678

[Anonymous No.21366890]

>>21355734
A lot of people aren’t used to apophatic theology/philosophy

[Anonymous No.21366926]

>>21366420
>Christian mysticism
You mean heretics like Giordano Bruno and Meister Eckhart?

[Anonymous No.21367374]

>>21364705
Much obliged for that. Albeit I don't know Sanskrit, I'll read them both and compare.

>>21366926
Heretics against whom, Churchianity? lol

[Anonymous No.21367388]

If Guenon was alive in 2022 he'd be posting on BitChute

[Anonymous No.21367396]

>>21367388
He'd be a schizoposter for sure. Probably a lolcow.

[Anonymous No.21367426]

>So what's the deal with Evola, Guenon, et al?

They used to have angry resentful incels in the previous century as well

[Anonymous No.21368055]

>>21367374
>Heretics against whom, Churchianity? lol
The catholic church? Bruno was burned at the stake and Ekchart was tried as a heretic but died before verdict could be reached.

You have halal mystics like Teresa de Avila, but the stages of prayer she describes are remarkably to meditative states which have been much more thoroughly described and investigated in buddhism and hinduism.

[Anonymous No.21368251]

One of the main criticisms of Guénon's work is that he often relied on a Eurocentric perspective when interpreting Indian philosophy. This is particularly evident in his writings on the Hindu tradition, where he often imposed Western categories and concepts onto Indian philosophical concepts, failing to accurately understand and appreciate the distinctiveness of the Hindu tradition.

Furthermore, Guénon's emphasis on the superiority of the "perennial philosophy" – the idea that all spiritual traditions ultimately converge on a single, universal truth – has been criticized as being overly simplistic and dismissive of the diversity and richness of Indian philosophy. Rather than treating the various Indian philosophical traditions as distinct and unique, Guénon tends to flatten them into a single, unified tradition that conforms to his own preconceived ideas.

Furthermore, Guénon's emphasis on the superiority of traditional, premodern societies has been criticized as being overly romantic and dismissive of the positive aspects of modernity. While it is true that modern societies have their own problems and challenges, it is also important to recognize the many ways in which modernity has brought about positive changes, such as increased individual freedom, democracy, and social justice. By failing to adequately acknowledge and engage with these positive aspects of modernity, Guénon's ideas can be seen as overly nostalgic and out of touch with the reality of contemporary society.

[Anonymous No.21368278]

However, one possible reason for the appeal of Evola's ideas to incels is that his writings often focus on traditional gender roles and the superiority of men over women. Incels, who are often characterized by their resentment and hostility towards women, may find this emphasis on traditional gender roles and male superiority appealing, as it aligns with their own beliefs and attitudes.

Additionally, Evola's emphasis on hierarchy and the idea that some individuals are inherently superior to others may also appeal to incels, who often feel marginalized and inferior within mainstream society. By embracing Evola's ideas, incels may feel that they are gaining access to a superior way of thinking and being, and that they are part of an elite group of individuals who possess superior knowledge and wisdom.

Furthermore, Evola's emphasis on spirituality and the rejection of materialism may also be appealing to incels, who may feel disillusioned and unhappy with their inability to find success in the workforce.

[Anonymous No.21368344]

>>21368251
>>21368278
is this the AI bot everyone is freaking about lately?

[Anonymous No.21368450]

>>21355759
Tradfags are nothing but hindrances on the world. I can't think of anything more cowardly and uninspired than trying to drag society back to a bygone era that you romanticize.

[Anonymous No.21368488]

>>21368251
>it is also important to recognize the many ways in which modernity has brought about positive changes, such as increased individual freedom, democracy, and social justice
>increased individual freedom, democracy, and social justice
lmfao
AI was a mistake

[Anonymous No.21368774]

I tried reading Revolt by Evola and found it needlessly overtly-metaphysical mumbojumbo like OP, what else should I check out by him, or preferably where should I start with Guenon?

[Anonymous No.21369182]

>>21355678
It's meme literature for the terminally online.

[Anonymous No.21369740]

>>21368774
Start with Multiple States of the Being, Intro. to the Hindu Doctrines, or Man and his Becoming.

To understand the doctrine of the multiplicity of the states of the being, it is necessary before considering anything else to return to the most primordial notion of all, that of metaphysical Infinity, evisaged in its relationship with universal Possibility. The Infinite, according to the etymology of the term which designates it, is that which has no limits; and if we are to preserve this word in its strict sense we must rigorously limit its use to the designation of that which has absolutely no limits whatsoever, excluding here everything that only escapes from certain particular limiting conditions while remaining subject to other limitations by virtue of its very nature, in which these limitations are essentially inherent - as, from the logical point of view which simply translates in its fashion the point of view that can be called "ontological", are those elements implicated in the very definition of the things in question. As we have already mentioned on many occasions, these latter include number, space, and time, even in the most general and extended conceptions we can possibly form of them, which far exceed our ordinary notions;* all of this can really only be in the domain of the indefinite. It is to the indefinitude, when it is of a quantitative order as in the examples just mentioned, that some people improperly apply the term "mathematical infinity", as if adding a fixed epithet or qualification to the world "infinity" did not itself imply a contradiction pure and simple. In fact, this indefinitude, proceeding from the finite of which it is only an extension or development (and therefore always reducible to the finite), has no common measure with the true Infinite, any more than an individuality, human or otherwise, even considered in the integrality of the indefinite prolongations of which it is capable, can ever be commensurate with the total being. This formation of the indefinite from the finite, of which we have a very clear example in the production of the series of numbers, is only possible on condition that the finite already contain the indefinite potentially, and even were teh limits extended so far as to be lost sight, so to speak - that is , to the point at which they escape our ordinary means of measurement - they certainly are not abolished thereby; by reason of the very nature of the causal relation it is quite obvious that the "greater" cannot come from the "lesser", nor the Infinite from the finite.

*It should be observed that we are careful to say 'general' and not 'universal', for here it is nothing more than a question of the particular conditions of certain states of existence, which should suffice to show that there is no question of infinity since these conditions are obviously as limited as the states to which they apply, and which they help to define.

[Anonymous No.21370158]

>>21368251
Literally every single point in this bot post is incorrect and sounds like someone who read a 2 page overview of Guenon's thought by someone else who just skim read one of his books.

[Anonymous No.21370187]

>>21355678
>So what's the deal with Evola
Zionist

[Anonymous No.21370219]

>>21355678
I hate it because the only "mystic" thing about it is it's concealment of any truth or lack thereof through confusing, entangled language. The movement itself didn't exist before Guenon and Evola made it up. Beforehand, it was cronies such as Levi who hated other similar cronies. In fact, Guenon hated other people such as the Theosophists.

>>21367374
>Churchianity

Another shortcoming is that these imps define what's religion and what's not. You'd think they're talking about universal truth spread throughout but they're not. They're just nitpicking certain aspects of every religion in order for them to make a coherent picture, usually through the devices of hinduism. Kabbalah is the "true" judaism even though most jews reject it. Zen is the true buddhism and nothing is mentioned about Theravada or concepts like Anatman just because. Meister Eckhart is the main guy in Christianity, not Augustine or St. Basil. This is just LARP and it'll die out within a few generations.

[Anonymous No.21370223]

Atheists try to cope with the fact that their religion is debased consumerist hedonist nihilism in 2 ways. First with Nietzsche's retarded idea to create and fight for your own values. The other cope by atheists is ''traditionalism'', ie ''everyday I want a bureaucratic daddy to tell me what do to in his fascist republic while I am pretending to be wicca witch doing magikkk in my sparetime like Evola an Guenon''. Whoever takes Nietzsche or Evola or Geunon seriously is completely lobotomized by atheism.

[Anonymous No.21370812]

>>21368774
If you found Evola's writing too dense, you are not going to get Guenon. Check out Evola's essay collections.
>>21370187
>posts a quote from the book of some catholic schizo
wow bro, you really owned evola

[Anonymous No.21370823]

>>21363563
astray from what

[Anonymous No.21370838]

>>21370223
let me guess the answer is to begome catholic am i rite

[Anonymous No.21370846]

>>21368344
yeah

[Anonymous No.21371063]

>>21370812
You have no idea of the crap you are talking.
0) you clearly have not read the book
1) Frank Julian Gelli, and he demonstrates this amply in his book "Julius Evola The Sufi of Rome," is a writer completely sympathetic to Evola, guenon and Sufism in general. The book contains conversations between the author Gelli and his friend Evola. Gelli considers Evola a "crypto-sufist."
2) the book does not focus on Catholicism, and what little is written about it is only aimed at making people believe, as evola and crowley believed, that the Tridentine Catholic mass is a magical act and a system of enchantments
3) so your "catholic schizo" happens to be an evola fan just like you.
4) quoting statements by evola that a friend of his faithfully reports in a book does not disqualify their veracity

[Anonymous No.21371109]

>>21371063
>blahblahblahblah
No, I won't read your gay retard Catholic book. No, I don't care about your Evola fanfics. No, I won't become a based and epic america first tradcath incel.
Cope and seethe, me ne frego, etc etc.

[Anonymous No.21371127]

>>21371109
Frank Gelli is Anglican not Catholic, he's even actively engaged in inter-religious dialogue (ecumenism) between Islam and Christianity, something that "traditional Christians" don't do.

[Anonymous No.21371133]

>>21355759
This is true. They take ancient propaganda for word, feeding the souls of seekers to their slavemasters.

[Anonymous No.21371141]

>>21371127
I don't give a shit homo, the one I find fascinating is Evola, not Fredo Gelli or whoever the fuck.

[Anonymous No.21371185]

>>21371141
>the one I find fascinating is Evola, not Fredo Gelli or whoever the fuck.
The book contains conversations between the author Gelli and his friend Evola. Julius Evola: The Sufi of Rome is basically Evola's Tables Talks
>>21371063
>>21371063
>>21371063

[Anonymous No.21371189]

>>21371185
>"you don't get it bro, it's like- it's like the Table Talks!"
Yep, another item of dubious authenticity! Thanks for the contribution bro.

[Anonymous No.21371528]

>>21370223
It's always unsettling and a bit cringe when followers of a religion try to convince you to join them...
Guenon converted to Islam, by the way, non-lobotomized theist.

>>21368450
You never read a book by Evola or Guénon.

>>21368774
You should probably start with Introduction to the Hindu Doctrines, or, if you wanna get into Evola, with the prefaces of The Hermetic Tradition / The Mystery of the Holy Grail, as they explain the motivations and the worldview of Evola.

[Anonymous No.21371616]

>>21371185
A dubious source at best. Not worth reading imo.

[Anonymous No.21371625]

>>21370187
Sounds like he was being tongue in cheek

[Anonymous No.21371631]

>>21367426
You sound pretty angry and resentful , are you referencing yourself?

[Anonymous No.21371635]

>>21358241
revoltchad hope you've been well brother

[Anonymous No.21371648]

>>21358241
Keep lifting. Now show shins sometime so we know you aren't skipping leg day.

[Anonymous No.21372733]

>>21370187
The main reason I think this quote is fabricated is because he would never conflate the spirit with the soul.