/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21318671]

I used to think language should be allowed to 'evolve naturally' but after seeing the way zoomers speak and how English (this is happening to other languages too) is degenerating into a disgusting pidgin of ebonics and meme slang, I now realize that linguistic integrity is something very important that must be preserved and even forced upon the populace at an institutional level.

[Anonymous No.21318674]

>>21318671
Same

[Anonymous No.21318677]

Move to France then, or you could relish of being the one-eyed king among the blind

[Anonymous No.21318685]

>>21318671
Why even bother if our civilization is heading down the drains anyway? It's a fitting evolution for the looming doom over our head. It's like when God released disasters upon the Pharaoh, only instead of bloody water the strange occurrence in our time is young people speaking gibberish

[Anonymous No.21318697]

>>21318671
Ay yo you finna spittin fax no printer fr fr no cap, how do I get into sum of that no sus, no cap, straight bussin straight fire low key high tier language?

[Anonymous No.21318699]

>>21318697
sussin this be oldass millennial

[Anonymous No.21318710]

>>21318671
>I had opinion X swayed by my racism
many such cases, you know where your containment board lies

[Anonymous No.21318714]

>>21318710
Not him but it simply sounds retarded, regardless of who uses it.

[Anonymous No.21318720]

>>21318714
>it sounds retarded
conjure up your best version of English you can speak and anyone from the 18th century would say the same about you

[Anonymous No.21318722]

>>21318710
>bioleninist freakshow baffled by someone not worshiping the bantu totem 24/7
many such cases, you know where your home website lies

[Anonymous No.21318731]

>>21318720
I don't speak like a zoomie so I doubt it.

[Anonymous No.21318733]

>>21318722
next time try using real words that mean something

[Anonymous No.21318740]

>>21318731
>I doubt it
yeah, lol, historical patterns always apply to others and not gigabrained me!

[Anonymous No.21318765]

>>21318740
Why does it make you angry, zoomie? If you don't use retarded language this shouldn't bother you.

[Anonymous No.21318779]

>>21318765
thanks for conceding, maybe next time try better to conceal the shallowness of your dogshit opinions

[Anonymous No.21318791]

>>21318671
We need to go back to the pre jazz ers

[Anonymous No.21318814]

>>21318779
>>21318765
>>21318740
>>21318722
>>21318720
White americans fighting over who loves black cock more

[Anonymous No.21318817]

>>21318779
Conceding what? Historical relativism is for weakies. You're saying we should just accept zoomerspeak as valid because some people in the past might've viewed us as retarded. As if "language evolves bro, just get over it xD" is not the most shallow opinion.

[Anonymous No.21318820]

>>21318671
We should just kill all the niggers. 2 birds, 1 stone.

[Anonymous No.21318825]

>>21318817
>a pattern that has without fail repeated throughout the history of mankind somehow doesn't apply to me because I'm very very smarty smarty

[Anonymous No.21318828]

>>21318814
What does that have to do with anything, coombrain?

[Anonymous No.21318834]

So you used to think language should develop freely, until it decided to develop in a way you don't like, so now you don't want it to develop freely?
Seems like you didn't really want it to develop freely in the first place.

Anyway the "degeneration" is largely just everyday slang that has always existed, always been criticised, and always barely influenced the language as a whole. It is not entering any remotely formal registers of the language, it is used on TikTok and Twitter that favour (overly) compressed expression. This "lowest" level of language usage is always the most dynamic, creating and forgetting new words in an instant, for proof you can check e.g. https://archive.org/details/passingenglishof00wareuoft . Hell, we're literally on a site that built its language around abbreviations and foreign words (desu, tfw, mfw, wojak, ynbaw) and assigning special functions to > which allow simplified grammar for narration.
English has already deeply influenced other languages' vocabulary, especially in the area of technology. But I do not know of any cases where the actual grammar has been affected, or that the traditional vocabulary areas have been replaced by English terms.

Being a non-native English speaker, I'd point out that, listening to my younger brother and sister over the years, I've noticed their usage of anglicisms has steadily been declining. Simply, as they're growing up, being more frequently exposed to other people's language, especially the language of the older generations that don't use English, they adapt and change their habits. So the real issue isn't the language itself, but the more powerful forces that form it - Anglophone cultural and economic domination, socialisation, new tech favouring simple and fast communication. Purity or any other quality of a language doesn't arise in a vacuum, just because someone likes it that way.

>>21318677
>Move to France then
French Academy existing is not preventing usage of Anglicisms in French.

[Anonymous No.21318837]

>>21318828
Speak English amerimutt
Don't use ebonics or mutt speak
Defending ebonics and zoom zoom speak is the same as supporting niggers

[Anonymous No.21318839]

>>21318834
>or that the traditional vocabulary areas have been replaced by English terms.
If you only knew.

[Anonymous No.21318843]

>>21318837
But I'm against zoomerspeak. Why did you even reply to me? The retard is the other guy.

[Anonymous No.21318850]

>>21318834
>French Academy existing is not preventing usage of Anglicisms in French.
But it does serve as a reference to correct, standard French.

[Anonymous No.21318865]

>>21318843
I wanted attention

[Anonymous No.21319075]

>romans knew this thousands of years ago
>"They were just being overdramatic
>it happens in front of his eyes
>"Wow that shouldnt be allowed!"

[Anonymous No.21319095]

>>21318671
Move to France then, or you could relish of being the one-eyed king among the blind

[Anonymous No.21319156]

>>21318677
>what is verslan

[Anonymous No.21319169]

>>21318828
Amerikaner gesichtet

[Anonymous No.21319179]

>>21318850
technically it only institutionalized Parisian french

[Anonymous No.21319263]

A question for linguists: do languages always degenerate or in history have some languages improved at some points and gone through new golden ages?

[Anonymous No.21319281]

>>21318671
>I'm getting older and I don't like the way things are changing
Congratulations, you're very special.

[Anonymous No.21319283]

>>21319263
Linguists in universities are always descriptivists (which are the liberals of language). They will never say something like "degenerate" when it comes to language. They will always say that "language is always evolving" and you won't get much from them. This question will never be answered because they don't see it in these terms. See: >>21318674

[Anonymous No.21319292]

>>21319283
Well what would the objective, non-liberal, non -relativist take be? I understand that liberals are very scared to assign value judgments to things because it would make one a loser and one a winner, but lets put the liberals aside. Is older always better when it comes to language or are there cases of languages improving in some way?

[Anonymous No.21319391]

>>21319281
thank you

[Anonymous No.21319402]

>>21318722
you must worship juju bongo, why are you not kneeling before juju bongo?

[Anonymous No.21319655]

>>21318677
Spbp

[Anonymous No.21319756]

>>21318671
>zoomer slang is le bad
>btw goyslop ywnbaw sneed incel troon roastie zoomer doomer coomer oomer booba soiyak sneed oldfag newfag mogging miring waifu kino betabux sneed
(none of the above words are in the bible except for "is" and "bad")

[Anonymous No.21319777]

>>21319756
Using a made up noun or verb while still adhering to grammatical rules is different from a totally bastardized form of language where grammatical rules are not followed at all.
>This nigga mad!
Take this sentence for example, it has no made up 4chan words but it is undoubtedly a worse case of bastardization because the verb "to be" is not necessary in ebonics

[Anonymous No.21319897]

>>21319777
verbs are not necessary in greentext either, and there's for example the widely accepted "can't into" construction which is also entirely ungrammatical

[Anonymous No.21319906]

Mutation which causes evolution is actually the sourcr of many diseases.

[Anonymous No.21319927]

>>21319756
nice strawman faggot

[Anonymous No.21319938]

>>21319777
trips of truth

[Anonymous No.21320029]

>>21319897
Good point, though I would respond that nobody uses greentext grammar when talking in real life or even in any written context outside of a greentext. Whereas ebonics is something that is not limited to text messages or greentext, we see in everyday conversation that people are abandoning certain verbs ("this nigga mad") or ignoring conjugation rules by using the singular form for everything ("those niggas is mad"). I think this is OP's point. Greentexts bastardize english too as you have pointed out, but nobody talks like that so there is no fear of it replacing the rules or hurting the quality of speech or literature. The same cannot be said for ebonics or zoomer slang

[Anonymous No.21320040]

>>21318671
Congratulations on becoming old.

[Anonymous No.21320449]

>>21319777
That's how the present tense is constructed in Russian, is Russian a dumbed down language without complex grammar? The truth is you just don't like black dialect/slang because you are a racist. I don't even care that much, but I'd respect it more if you just admitted it.

[Anonymous No.21320503]

>>21318733
The irony. You ended up supporting OP.

[Anonymous No.21320511]

>>21320449
What do the rules of Russian have to do with English? I'm not saying anything about the rules themselves, just the fact that slang is ignoring certain rules of its own language, thus making it a devolution. English doesn't have grammatical genders, but am I comparing it to Arabic or French to say that it's dumbed down? Every language has its own rules. English has certain rules and modern slang dumbs them down, simple as that. If the Russian language doesn't have certain rules, then what issue would I have with that? But if someone were to dumb down the rules of Russian, English, Arabic, or anything else, this will be called a devolution.

[Anonymous No.21320529]

The fallacy that defenders of this “descriptivist” approach can’t seem to get past is that not all slang is made equal.
An informal ingratiating rhyming slang developed over a century of a homogenous population sharing cultural reference points is not the same as less than a decade of Twitter memes reshaping the language most people under twenty are capable of articulating their thoughts with.
This was Orwell’s main fear with newspeak in 1984 and people miss the point because there’s no obvious stormtroopers or big brother enforcing it.

[Anonymous No.21320548]

>>21318671
>slang before my time
cool

>slang after my time
fake and gay

[Anonymous No.21320574]

>>21318671
part of the natural evolution of language is a conservative tendency among its older, wealthier, and higher status speakers.
do you think the members of the senate spoke in the same fashion as commoners in rome? of course not.

[× I V R I ࿇ N E M O × !!GgBWHLRiayD No.21320616]

>>21318671


1. Integrity, and evolution, are not mutually exclusive.

2. Ebonics, and Zoomer slang, constitute devolution —one can squirm even whilst falling.

[Anonymous No.21320652]

>>21320616
What would you describe as evolution or good innovation when it comes to language? Can you give examples? I asked earlier in this thread if better just means older when it comes to language, so if there is such a thing as a good linguistic innovation, I will know that better means more than just older.

[Anonymous No.21320678]

>>21320449
>every language is the same!
retard

[× I V R I ࿇ N E M O × !!GgBWHLRiayD No.21320788]

>>21320652
>What would you describe as evolution or good innovation when it comes to language?

Elimination of superfluously aquired meanings, and integration/synthesis of essential meanings —convertive correction, and perfective precision.


>Can you give examples?

Imagine Latin, but also with architextually comprehensive words like: "episence", "syncord", "circuportation", et cetera.

Aesthetical —visual, grammatical, phonetical— harmony is in universal syncord with semantical accuracy; this syncord is what facilitates the poetical realization of the transvertible potential of language, and, therefore, is also formally a constitutive part of what makes the best poetry philosophical, and the best philosophy poetical.

[Anonymous No.21320837]

>>21320788
Good answer, this makes sense. But do you have any specific examples of languages in history where we say that the language improved at a certain point? And due to innovation, not renovation. I don't know enough about poetry to answer this myself, but did any influential poet or playwright like Shakespeare create a golden age of their respective language specifically due to innovations?

[× I V R I ࿇ N E M O × !!GgBWHLRiayD No.21321158]

>>21320788
>Elimination of superfluously aquired meanings, and integration/synthesis of essential meanings —convertive correction, and perfective precision.

Also, and more obvious: elimination of superfluous, and/or ugly elements in language, such as contractions.


>>21320837
>But do you have any specific examples of languages in history where we say that the language improved at a certain point?

Language develops insofar as it is functional —with the optimal end being universality; most languages are/have been globalistically, or regionalistically, not universalistically, developed—; the concomitant evolution, or devlolution, of language is contingent on the degree of virtue of its place of development; from what I know of them, Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, Spanish, and Russian —which is native to me— appear to be some of the most literarily/poetically advanced languages.


>And due to innovation, not renovation.

In concord with the aforementioned —particularly: the principle of convertive correction, and perfective precision—, everything that is optimal tends toward innovation.

All innovation entails renovation, but not all renovation implies innovation.


>I don't know enough about poetry to answer this myself, but did any influential poet or playwright like Shakespeare create a golden age of their respective language specifically due to innovations?

1. Research who are the best poets of the aforementioned languages, and there you have your answer.

2. Shakespeare is a mediocre poet, and English is incapable of having a "Golden Age".

[× I V R I ࿇ N E M O × !!GgBWHLRiayD No.21321186]

>>21321158
>[...]the concomitant evolution, or [devolution], of language is contingent on the degree of virtue [—or on the lack thereof—,] of its place of development[...]

[Anonymous No.21321265]

>>21321158
>English is incapable of having a "Golden Age".
why?

[Anonymous No.21321322]

>>21318671
>>21318674
not listening to people calling others niggers. simple as.

[Anonymous No.21321546]

Linguistics are an art much like drawing. If you want to break the rules effectively, learn them first.

[Anonymous No.21321564]

>>21318677
>you could relish of being

[Anonymous No.21321570]

>>21319179
There's historical precedent for that largely influenced by Paris having a lot of water access and being nearly equidistant from many traditional centers of population. Paris was and is the maypole around which many diverse threads of French culture are spun. Regional dialects continue to exist but Parisian French is a cultural touchstone that served to unite the people through a common medium of ideas.

By contrast, the English have historically taken pride in not understanding their immediate regional neighbours ways of speaking so English has forever remained a language without any real institutional standardization. This is exaggerated throughout the Anglosphere, especially in the United States and the self-described (but not actually) liberal academia.

[Anonymous No.21321573]

>>21318671
>should
>ought
Yeah nah

[Anonymous No.21321659]

>>21318671
What are you going to do about it?
It's not like you can control language.

[× I V R I ࿇ N E M O × !!GgBWHLRiayD No.21321756]

>>21321265


It is a chimerical language.


Maybe a "Golden Retriever Age".

[Anonymous No.21321779]

>>21318671
so what you gon do??? Force people not to use slang??? Are you 15 or something. This is not possible.
Also there is no degeneration and you know it. There has always been slang. Only difference back in the day nobody could speak what you would call normal English. Everyone spoke like a retard. At least now most people don't use slang.
This board is so shit. Ohhh no zoomerspeak bad. Yeah who cares. If you listened to a young person from the 40s he would just be speaking another version of zoomerspeak.
You are a loser. If you said any of this somewhere irl you would be ridiculed for being a faggot.
Do us a favour and get of the internet and speak to normal people and you will see that everyone is normal.
Also start studying actual sciences and drop that linguistic pseudo intelectuall bs.
Ohh no my language is changing. Yeah and there is nothing you can do about it.
Ohh no meme slang. You are just being terminally online. Nobody irl uses this shit. It's you fault for being on the net too much.

Noooo you can't speak like that. This is the type of shit some 60 yo English highschool teacher looser would say.
We should bring back bullying just for people like you.

Language has been always evolving. Nothing new.

[Anonymous No.21321845]

>>21318677
relish IN being*, nice ESL prepositions

[Anonymous No.21322364]

>>21321158
>Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, Spanish, and Russian —which is native to me— appear to be some of the most literarily/poetically advanced languages.
In what ways are these the most advanced languages? Also I noticed that you have Latin and Spanish but not the other Romance languages, is this only out of familiarity or a purposeful exclusion? Same for Sanskrit, do you view Bangla for example as a devolution?

[Anonymous No.21322415]

>>21319402
Ooga chaka ooga ooga

[Anonymous No.21322488]

>>21318671
I realise that objectively there is no way to ever achieve true prescriptive language, but I just hate zoomerspeak so much that I will spend the rest of my life stubbornly denying that fact and fighting against incorrect English.

[Anonymous No.21322524]

>>21320837
>But do you have any specific examples of languages in history where we say that the language improved at a certain point?
The closest thing I can think of to an "objective" improvement in a language is a development of new words to describe concepts which previously didn't exist or couldn't be described, e.g. a language that previously had no word for "zero" developing such a word as mathematical understanding became more sophisticated. This can happen by borrowing a word from another language, by repurposing an existing word, or by deriving a new word through compounding, suffixes, etc. Note that this only applies to vocabulary; any change in a language's grammar will be seen by some as an improvement and by others as a degradation (e.g. many native English speakers think grammatical gender in nouns is stupid and are glad that English doesn't have it, whereas speakers of gendered languages commonly see their system as more sophisticated).

[Anonymous No.21322702]

[Anonymous No.21322758]

>>21318671
It's not the Language, it's the People.
It's Participation Mystique ; Formulations of Sensible Intuitive Concepts "no cap" "fr fr" "caught you lackin" .

>>Another thing that struck me [in the American] was the great influence of the Negro, a psychological influence naturally, not due to the mixing of blood. The emotional way an American expresses himself, especially the way he laughs, can best be studied in the illustrated supplements of the American papers; the inimitable Teddy Roosevelt laugh is found in its primordial form in the American Negro. The peculiar walk with loose joints, or the swinging of the hips so frequently observed in Americans, also comes from the Negro.[3]
>>American music draws its main inspiration from the Negro, and so does the dance. The expression of religious feeling, the revival meetings, the Holy Rollers and other abnormalities are strongly influenced by the Negro. The vivacity of the average American, which shows itself not only at baseball games but quite particularly in his extraordinary love of talking – the ceaseless gabble of American papers is an eloquent example of this – is scarcely to be derived from his Germanic forefathers, but is far more like the chattering of a Negro village.
>>The almost total lack of privacy and the all-devouring mass sociability remind one of primitive life in open huts, where there is complete identity with all members of the tribe.

[Anonymous No.21322782]

>>21321779
devolving*

[Anonymous No.21323230]

>>21322782
whatever the case is. Yall should get some real interests and stop whining about something you cannot change. Also linguistics is huge scam and people who fall for it a huge faggots.
Also I like how everyone is so concerned about English when in reality English is the most primitive language as far as poetry/literature goes. Sure there is mad volume of shit written in it but you can't compare it to other European languages.

[Anonymous No.21323515]

>>21318671

Okay it is changing just like it always has and will continue to do so. It's literally nothing

[Anonymous No.21323536]

>>21319777
Absolutely this. I notice it most in constructions such as "they phone"

[Anonymous No.21323537]

I don’t mind new speak or slang or word salads as much as I hate words changing meaning to something worse, best example for me is the phrase “hot take” because it’s become synonymous with “unpopular opinion” when it’s more like “first draft opinion based on initial perspective”

[Anonymous No.21323544]

>>21323230
> Yall
Ah, so you're one of them and you feel called out?
>English is the most primitive language as far as poetry/literature goes.
Not even remotely true.
>Sure there is mad volume of shit written in it but you can't compare it to other European languages.
Actually you can and I'm not sure why you would think otherwise. I'm not even an Anglo.

[Anonymous No.21323820]

>>21320029
it's not an ebonics thing really, I'm reading some Victorian novels about street children in Liverpool or other shithole, and they used almost every butchery of grammar that ebonics is doing today and sometimes worse, ain't, they is, ax (instead of ask), none of it is new (and by extension doesn't belong to niggers as niggers like to claim)

[Anonymous No.21324000]

>>21323820
>ax (instead of ask)
This is an extremely old variation. Even Chaucer wrote "ax." Today, it's died off among almost all white English speakers, but it's still used in New Orleans by both whites and blacks.

[Anonymous No.21324016]

>× I V R I ࿇ N E M O ×

[Anonymous No.21324501]

>>21321322
you will learn nothing on this website

[Anonymous No.21324553]

What a funny thread. fpbp per usual >>21318674, that screencap really says it all.

[Anonymous No.21325301]

>>21321756
But doesn't Spanish for example have a lot of Arabic loan words? Genuinely asking, I don't know if Spanish is comparable to English. It also raises the interesting question of which Spanish. Would a speaker of Castilian view Cuban Spanish as a devolution?

[Anonymous No.21325571]

>>21318677
Spbp

[Anonymous No.21325923]

>>21325301
>Would a speaker of Castilian view Cuban Spanish as a devolution?
yes, lol, Spanish people hate Latin Americans and the way they speak Spanish