/swtgrg/ - Start with the Greeks reading group

[Anonymous No.20982834]

- Brainstorming edition -

Similar to the War and Peace thread >>>20949065 we could have one were we read the Greeks. There is no set plan yet, so we ought to brainstorm what we read (Pre-Socratics? Plato? Aristotle? ...?) and when.

Who would be interested in such a comfy venture?

[Anonymous No.20982840]

am reading antigona ^^

[Anonymous No.20982848]

FUCKING FINALLY WE MAY STUDY HERACLITUS AND FREE OURSELVES OUTTA THOSE PLATONIST PINCERS

[Anonymous No.20982850]

my friend, wait a see what becomes of that reading group; before you endeavour and hope, and it inevitably breaks your heart.

[Anonymous No.20982866]

>>20982834
Pre-socratics should be the place to start. Do you want this to be like an intro to philosophy course? I think that would be pretty sweet since I have a fantasy of starting a rouge online intro to philosophy course.
If not with the pre-socratics I think starting with Plato's Apology of Socrates is a good place to start since it's an interesting story. Then after that move into some of the philosophical dialogues.

[Anonymous No.20982873]

1. Homer - Iliad
2. Homer - Odyssey
3. Hesiod -Works and Days, Theogony
4. Aeschylus - plays
5. Sophocles - plays
6. Euripides - plays
7. Aristophanes - plays
8. Herodotus - Histories
9. Thucydides - The Peloponnesian Wars
10. Xenophon - Hellenica, Anabasis, Cyropaedia
11. Plato - Dialogues
12. Aristotle - everything

That's my list and the books I have in roughly chronological order, I've gone through a couple already and I hope to finish by the end of the year. I also have a volume with poems that I'll throw in there somewhere.

[Anonymous No.20982892]

>>20982866
>>20982873
Going through a lot of books with the same anons would of course be ideal, but I don't know how realistic this is. Also a lot of people will discover it when we already read multiple books and then they are not on the same page as we are.

[Anonymous No.20982893]

>>20982866
The problem is most of the pre-Socratics are not doing philosophy. Most of the pre-Socratic fragments are just statements about how they believe things are, no better than religious prophets. The only exception is perhaps Parmenides because he actually has arguments, even if they're in poetic form. So you might as well introduce your students to philosophy by telling them to read the Iliad (all things fair, this is not necessarily a poor option, but it's not really philosophy as such).

[Anonymous No.20982906]

>>20982893
I hate to suggest a video instead of a book but perhaps a very good lecture on the pre-socratics would be enough.
I think they are a good place to start since you get an idea of how people thought back then. I think lectures for good universities are the best way for plebs to get their feet wet.
But really though I'm not expecting many people to agree with me here.

[Anonymous No.20982916]

>>20982873
This is a good list.

[Anonymous No.20982921]

>>20982893
>just statements about how they believe things are
>exception...Parmenides...has arguments

SHUT THE HELL UP, ADMIT IT YOU BELIEVE IN AN UNCHANGING WORLD AND AN UNCHANGING TRUTH AND THAT THIS COMPRISES WHOLE WORLD. YOU ARE A SLAVE TO LAW AND YOU IMAGINE THE WHOLE OF ART AND IMAGINATION AS LAW.

FUCK YOU ASSHOLE, YOU WON'T DENY ME MY FREEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOMMMMM

[Anonymous No.20982945]

>>20982906
I have the Kirk, Raven and Schofield collection of the fragments from all of the well known pre-Socratics plus quite a few more which I can recommend well enough. So far the figure I have enjoyed the most is Zeno, and I rarely see anyone praise those, namely because they are not arguments for or against anything, but just interesting paradoxes which lead you directly into the problems Plato and Aristotle tried to solve (and why some of the topics they consider, at first sight and without context, might seem wacky or absurd). What I mean to say is that I have found it much better as a simple compendium which I consult when I get bored of slogging through more substantial subject matter; it's relatively light hearted and simple (apart from the academic commentary), and interesting in a different way to later texts. I've found that Plato's comments (although he was criticizing Anaxagoras directly in this case) in Phaedo on the short sightedness of the pre-Socratics in general to be completely valid, in that he states they start off with some attractive premise (in this case, "mind is unmixed and all") and then go on to elaborate some arcane theory of physics which confounds all of the legitimate causes and principles that philosophy proper ought to be investigating, whilst leaving the initial principle basically as some sort of empty retainer. The proper causes are left undetermined, and obviously erroneous causes are put in their place. The criticism of Socrates in that dialogue can even be transposed in a way to some modern philosophical currents and applications of physical theories, which is fairly impressive, at least at first glance (because if you are familiar with Plato, you will understand the actual depth behind what appears at first as perhaps even naive simplicity).

[Anonymous No.20983330]

>>20982834
If my suggestion sounds sound to you i suggest we read strictly the complete dialogues of Plato

[Anonymous No.20984853]

bump

[Anonymous No.20984943]

>>20982873
>Aristotle - everything
Some of Aristotle's major works (like Metaphysics) are nearly impossible to understand without academical help.

[Anonymous No.20984964]

>>20982834
>>20982873
This is a good idea, I'd have to join late as I've read Homer and some plays, but I'm in
>>20982850
It's not the first time, we've read DQ, Moby Dick and Ulysses

[Anonymous No.20984999]

>>20984943
Maybe you're right. It's just my list, I haven't reached Aristotle yet. If OP wants he could select certain stuff only.

[Anonymous No.20985061]

>>20984999
Unlike Plato, Aristotle's works are way more technical. I'd suggest reading an Aristotelian scholar like Ross before his works. Also you might need help in some of the middle/later dialogues of Plato like Theaetetus.

[Anonymous No.20985132]

This would probably be particularly beneficial for Aristotle since he's such a chore to read.

[Anonymous No.20985418]

>>20982834
Were you thinking of philosophy in particular, or are you open to literature?

At least to start with, just so this could get off the ground, I'd avoid longer works for the moment (Homer, the historians, most Aristotle, Plato's longer dialogues). Covering most pre-Socratics is tricky, since a few sparse lines make up quite a bit of them, and while interesting insights can come out, it can feel like squeezing water from a rock. Obvious exceptions are Heraclitus, Parmenides, Anaxagoras, Empedocles, maybe Gorgias' surviving speeches. Though I suppose you could theme threads around several pre-Socratics to fill out discussions (Thales, Anixamander, Xenophanes, all together for example).

If anyone's open to literature, Hesiod's poems are much shorter than Homer's, and Aristophanes' comedies while funny, have a lot of jumping off points for discussions (nature of poetry in the Frogs, communism in the Assemblywomen, ideal cities in the Birds).

[Anonymous No.20985432]

>>20982921
We are all thralls anon. Freedom worship is cringe and dumb. No one wants to be fully free. It's also a nebulous term.

[Anonymous No.20985545]

>>20985418
You can't have a greek reading group without Homer, are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.20985566]

>>20985545
That's not what I said, and since when did it have to be strictly chronological?

[Anonymous No.20985638]

>>20985566
Not chronological, but Homer is the foundation of all things greek

[Anonymous No.20985648]

What's ya'lls opinion on Marcus Aurelius?

[Anonymous No.20985666]

>>20985638
You know we can always read shorter things first and circle back to Homer, yeah?

[Anonymous No.20986496]

>>20985666
Then start with Hesiod.

[Anonymous No.20986672]

It might be good to use the classic chart, I'm not sure how many people have actually gone through it but I've already done it and I would be fine reading everything again or the very least participating in the threads of books I've already read.

[Anonymous No.20987075]

Let me know when you actually start reading. Until then there's no point.

[Anonymous No.20987739]

The thought of reading epic poems causes an epic sleep within me. I rather read the philosophy than about a someone stealing another one's girl, or some similar stupid shit

[Anonymous No.20988032]

>>20987739
kys

[Anonymous No.20988122]

>>20988032
>muh bounty
>muh reparations
>muh war prize
Yea, this is going to be so exhilarating

[Anonymous No.20988128]

>>20988122
see>>20988032

[Anonymous No.20989324]

>>20982834
I started with pic related last year and just wrapped up Plato. It's been life changing honestly. Super stoked to dig into Aristotle next. My favorite book so far though has been Peloponnesian War by Thucycides. So many great speeches and the conflict itself is like a template for current geopolitical events.

[Anonymous No.20989384]

>>20989324
That's a pretty nice list, it also has great mathematicans on it. I started going back into maths (analysis for now) as a side project anyways, I think that's essential for ones philosophical thought.

Should we do this chart, anons? It would be a very long ride, so we need to have semesters. Every two (?) months there will be a new group of people that start at zero. The others keep going.

That would of course cause the problem that there are multiple discussions in the same thread. So maybe we should have our own forum? Maybe even an image board just for this purpose.

What do you think?

[Anonymous No.20989406]

>>20989384
Some of the books on that chart (especially Aristotle) WILL definitely fuck you up without proper pre reading. You might arrange a special reading group only for Metaphysics.

[Anonymous No.20989433]

why would i want to be in a reading group with you retards?

[Anonymous No.20989484]

>>20982834
The Greeks are a meme.

[Anonymous No.20989532]

>>20989406
>You might arrange a special reading group only for Metaphysics.
It will be the same reading group for every book, what do you mean with special?

[Anonymous No.20989536]

>>20989484
and a good one!

[Anonymous No.20989544]

>>20989532
Metaphysics requires an entire reading group just by itself. You'd either try to skim through all of that and waste the book or completely get frustrated and ruin the entire reading pace after spending weeks in some chapters.

[Anonymous No.20990406]

>>20989544
What all would I need to read before metaphysics?

[Anonymous No.20990694]

>>20986672
i just recently bought all of those books and planned to start them once I read picrel.

[Anonymous No.20990739]

>>20982834
what happened to the /lit/ Philosophy project? were there ever any updates to it? it's long been a goal of mine along with a few other things, but life gets in the way. perhaps reading with company ought to provide some extra momentum.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y8_RRaZW5X3xwztjZ4p0XeRplqebYwpmuNNpaN_TkgM/edit

[Anonymous No.20990763]

>>20990739
>I am a Marxist and an atheist
get out

[Anonymous No.20990782]

>>20990763
>i can't read the Greeks anymore because a marxist-atheist has them in his guide
seems silly.