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/lit/ - Literature

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20512145 No.20512145 [Reply] [Original]

Is Achilles an incel?

>> No.20512157

>>20512145
I wonder if 8 year olds are calling each other incel.

>> No.20512159

>>20512145
he was fugging a cute femboy so obv not???

>> No.20512172

>>20512145
no, he's gay

>> No.20512193

>>20512159
>>20512172
This, him and Patroclus were obviously homos

>> No.20512303

>>20512159
>>20512172
>>20512193
t. male with no friends or woman with a yaoi-fried brain

>> No.20512308
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20512308

>>20512145
Yes anon, the greek hero Achilles was an incel.

>> No.20512309

>entire story happens because he loses his fuckslave
>is he involuntarily celibate

>> No.20512347

>>20512309
If he lost his fuckslave and their relationship was monogamous and he honors monogamy, then until he finds his fuckslave he is, technically, involuntarily celibate.

>> No.20512363

>>20512309
>loses fuckhole
>im not contributing anything until you give her back
>im going to go sit in my room crying and beg the gods to make your life harder until I get a whore
sounds like an incel to me

>> No.20512424

>>20512347
tempcel

>> No.20512439

Robert Fagles or Richmond Lattimore translation?

>> No.20512472

>>20512424
A shocking number of heroes in literature are tempcels. Great way to avoid writing sex scenes. I think my favorite is John Carter of Mars. Dude's bitch gets lock in a jail that opens once a year. How's that for blue balling your hero? I'd conquer Mars too.

>> No.20512503

>>20512309
>>entire story happens because he loses his fuckslave
???

>> No.20512754

>>20512503
anon thinks that paris stole helen from achilles

>> No.20512760

>>20512503
Chryseis

>> No.20512767

>>20512760
the events were already set in motion before he lost her and events continued despite losing her
i'm not following

>> No.20512775

>>20512503
The first lines of the book literally tells you that Achillesis crying for losing his girl.

>> No.20512783

>>20512767
The Iliad is about Achilles, anon.

>> No.20512791

>>20512783
in the same way that shakespeare's julius caesar is about caesar, then

>> No.20512795

>>20512791
brother what is the first line of the iliad

>> No.20512796

>>20512795
>Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning

>> No.20512797

>>20512795
>Tthe Greek army is led by Agamemnon (son of Atreus). It is besieging

>> No.20512817

>>20512791
Book starts with:
>Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus’ son Achilleus
>and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians
Compare how Homer starts The Odyssey:
>Tell me, Muse, of the man of many ways, who was driven
>far journeys, after he had sacked Troy’s sacred citadel.
If that is not enough to tell you what the book is about, you should read it again.

>> No.20512830
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20512830

>>20512817
the illiad is not about achilles; it is about ilium
it is even in the name which you read before even the first line of the book

>> No.20512846
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20512846

>>20512145
Achilles wasn't even conscious

>> No.20513084
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20513084

>>20512846
The mere fact of this book's existence, without the author having been captured and summarily executed by his local authorities, is justification for the sissification, grooming, and subsequent bloody erotic sacrifice of the West's children.
West is a nidus of decay

>> No.20513108

>>20512193
Women have no concept of loyalty or strong friendship so they literally cannot imagine Achilles and Patroclus being just friends.

>> No.20513111

>>20512791
The Iliad is literally about the rage of Achilles. It's in the first few lines of the fucking poem.

>> No.20513155

>>20512363
Achilles was kino.

>> No.20513158

>>20513084
Ok drama queen

>> No.20513531

>>20513084
im curious as to what about this book led you to that conclusion

>> No.20513593

What does this even mean? Why do you disgusting Americans ruin everything with your stupid fucking meme vocabulary? Is Achilles an incel? Is Achilles a fucking incel? What next, was Odysseus a simp? Say these questions out loud so you realise how fucking stupid they sound, you absolute waste of oxygen. God I fucking hate you so much

>> No.20513682
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20513682

>>20512172
>>20512193
>>20512303
>>20513108
4chan weakling: NOOOO WOMEN DONT UNDERSTAND CAMARADERIE!!!! THEY WERENT LOVERS!!!
meanwhile actual greek warriors and war heroes like aeschylus, plato, etc. thought they were lovers... hmmm,, who should i trust?

>> No.20513683

>>20513593
he has an incel vibe, end of
He cried in his boat for 23 books because he lost his whore, the same as people on this site who make stupid frog threads about how they hate the world, laugh at the all the negative things that happen to society and are going to stay neets for their entire life out of spite because a girl they liked didnt suck their dick because they have small wrists or they are only 5 foot 11.

>> No.20513743

>>20512817
I'm not a native English speaker but somehow this English translation is far easier to understand than the translation to my native language. It's tedious to read the text in my native language because I can't understand expression here or there. Wildly different style from any modern poetry, literature or spoken language.

>> No.20513788

He already had a son by the start of the war, didn’t he?

>> No.20513789
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20513789

>>20513683
You are autistic

>> No.20513811

>>20513788
Yes. His son goes to fight in Troy after he dies. He was proud to learn his son was great warrior in The Odyssey.

>> No.20513815

>>20513682
i literally said they were gay in my post.

>> No.20514085

>>20512783
>>20512817
>>20513111
The Iliad is LiTERALLY about the Sun, i.e. Helios. It's in the name.

>> No.20514088

>>20512795
It was the best of times it was the worst of times

>> No.20514099

>>20512796
lol

>> No.20514152

>>20513683
>t. 5 foot 9 skinny wristed virgin

>> No.20514157

>>20512439
Are both better than R. Fitzgerald's ?

>> No.20514313

>>20512439
>Richmond Lattimore translation
That is the superior translation.

>> No.20515010

>>20512145
Yes

>> No.20515503
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20515503

>>20514085

>> No.20516029

>>20512145
No, he was just a bratty teen

>>20512159
bro he was the cute femboy

>> No.20516071

>>20512439
Lattimore

>> No.20516283

>>20512193
delusional

>> No.20516361

>>20512795
>Once upon a time there was a lovely princess, but she had an enchantment upon her of a fearful sort, which could only be broken by loves first kiss

>> No.20517458

>>20513682
Read the primary text, degenerate

>> No.20517465

>>20512347
>monogamy
Why are you, and, apparently, everyone else, even OP, posting in a literature board, in a thread about The Iliad, without ever reading it?
Go ruin another board.

>> No.20517494

>>20512303
>>20513108
Guys the greeks were weird and would fuck eachother. It wasn't seen as "gay"
Time-period historians even thought they were gay. There's actually a very interesting story where Alexander visits the tomb of Achilles and his supposed lover visited the tomb of Patroclus nearby, all but confirming that Alexander was giving some sloppy toppy.

>> No.20517613

>>20517465
I wasn't talking about the Iliad and never claimed to have read it. I read the Odyssey and that was enough Greek heroic poems for me. I was just talking about the general case. If you have a fuckslave and your fuckslave is missing (i.e. cannot be fucked), then either you are temporarily celibate or you fuck something or someone else, depending on your belief in and commitment to monogamy. That's just logic.

Which I learned from Aristotle, by the way.

>> No.20517644

>>20512767
>>20512797
Lmfao do you think the Illiad is actually concerned with the long-term strategy of the Illyrian war? Motherfucker it's an episode of a few days within a 10 year span. Anons are right, Achilles and Hector are the loci of the action.

Wait, did you read it? Did you think the horse happened in the Illiad? Lmao

>> No.20517681

>>20517494
>"Greece" is one culture, time and place.

The Athenians who practiced Pederaesty were farther removed from Homer than we are from Shakespeare. But, looking around I noticed that our culture is markedly different than Shakespeare's.
This would be like if aliens in the future read our news and assumed Amber Heard was a man because they had read that Elizabethan actors were all men.

This isn't to mention Homer himself was anywhere from a few hundred to a thousand years removed from the events of his narrative .

>> No.20517711

>>20517681
>>20517458
Not that anon and I'm not claiming it was practiced in Homeric times, but pederasty wasn't restricted to the Athenians nor to the classical era, which it predates by several centuries. There are tantalising hints that maybe it was practiced in Homeric Greece, like Homer's invocation of the Ganymede myth, and the comparison Phoenix makes between Meleager and his wife and Achilles and Patroclus, as well as Thetis' metrical emphasis on the word 'woman' when she tells her son to have sex to get over his grief of Patroclus. But the only solid evidence comes from the archaic era.

>> No.20517745

>>20517711
Good information, thank you.

I do wonder, allowing that they were homosexual, if the relationship between the two would have been anything like the Athenian ideal. As some of the anons in this thread have already shown, people often interpret Achilles as being the "beloved" of the relationship due to being younger, and this being the case in Athens.

I find the passage (to lazy to open my book) where Achilles fantasizes about just murdering everyone besides Patroclus and having liberty together to be pretty solid evidence that they had a very deep love - but it also makes it hard for me to imagine Achilles being a passive bottom, to use the language of the current day.

>> No.20517754

>>20517681
I should ammend, since I look like a total myopic for fixatedly saying "Athenian" in spite of your post.

I wonder if, even if they were homosexual lovers, if the nature of that relationship would have been at all like what later Greek (and hs by proxy) would envision.

>> No.20517767
File: 20 KB, 555x152, Screenshot 2022-06-13 at 13-11-58 Achilles and Patroclus in Love on JSTOR.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20517767

>>20517745
>>20517754
Yes, it's difficult to say, because at this point we'd be stacking hypotheticals on top of hypotheticals. I know that some people have idealistically read Achilles and Patroclus' relationship as a looser, more equal kind of romance, which then degenerated into the more structured, hierarchical form visible in classical Athens. There might be something to that, or it might be nonsense, I'm not sure. Certainly it is *different* from classical pederasty, whether because it is not erotic, or a different kind of eroticism, or a different presentation of the same sort of eroticism. Pic related, from W.M. Clarke's paper 'Achilles and Patroclus in Love', shows some of the nuances involved. I'm not sure I agree with the confidence of his thesis, and I have no idea what the majority of classical scholars would say about it, but it brings up interesting points. Here's the JSTOR link:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4476069

>> No.20517932

>>20517767
Thanks anon. Have a good one.