/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20381624]

Ideal in Greek sculpture
>strong, dominant
Ideal in Christian sculpture
>skinny, oppressed
Was he right?

[Anonymous No.20381629]

>>20381624
Not necessarily.

[Anonymous No.20381681]

>>20381624
Firstly, there is no such thing as a sculpture tradition in Christianity. But if compare the general motives of Greek sculpture tradition and Christian painting tradition, I still wouldn't agree with Nietzsche because we are able to see "oppression" motives mostly in certain Biblical motives, not a general tendention.

Secondly, in my opinion, Nietzsche caused a spread huge misinterpretation of the spirit of Christianity through such statements. Christian ascetical ideal doesn't mean turning yourself into a pity subhuman but achieving divine peacefulness through certain meditative experiences. You can compare it to an aesthetical experience if you are familiar with it.

[Anonymous No.20381713]

>>20381624
Yes. Also crying and wearing ugly robes. Biblical aesthetics are fucking ugly thats why they defaced everything Roman and wore the Roman corpse as robes

[Anonymous No.20381833]

>>20381681
>achieving divine peacefulness through certain meditative experiences

New age bullshit
You don't need religion for this anyways

[Anonymous No.20381846]

>>20381624
No. Bullshit like everything else he said.

[Anonymous No.20381858]

>>20381833
>New age bullshit
Doubt you understood what I meant. Prayers are meditative experiences. Concentrating on the existence of God is a meditative experience, as to how would you be able to feel its presence at all. Ascetic and mystical practices are also meditative. I don't mean any questionable made-up practices that go beyond the Christian biblical tradition. And yes, you don't need religion for this, although without at least a complex transcendental philosophical system it would be quite meaningless to practice.

[Anonymous No.20381868]

>>20381624
Jesus christ is always portrayed as handsome and strong. Same with every other biblical figure before the current pozz age

[Anonymous No.20381876]

Slaves in antiquity were able bodied

[Anonymous No.20381886]

>>20381876
>source: my loose butthole

[Anonymous No.20381902]

>>20381886
>the weak shall fear the strong
>roman slaves were greeks

[Anonymous No.20381911]

>>20381902
>doesn't provide one
Yea, that's what I thought.

[Anonymous No.20381914]

>>20381911
How about you stop reading philosophy and read a history book bud

[Anonymous No.20381950]

>>20381911

[Anonymous No.20382003]

>>20381950
Hm? Is this supposed to prove something? Of course a slaver would desire a strong slave. A stronger slave lasts longer, is less prone to disease and fatigue. This is true in any time. But that's not what I'm asking. It's not that you have to prove people desired strong slaves, you have to prove these slaves were stronger or strong as non slaves. That's what makes it significant.

[Anonymous No.20382023]

>>20381846
The Renaissance was literally an emulation of pagan aesthetics, this David isn’t even circumcised

[Anonymous No.20382038]

>>20381624
Yeah, really unhealthy and sad.

[Anonymous No.20382041]

>>20382023
Actually many historians agree that circumcision as we know it wouldn't have been a thing in David's time. Besides, ignoring the statue, the story of David by itself is of will power and strength.

[Anonymous No.20382043]

This is what fascism looks like.

[Anonymous No.20382046]

>>20382003
We were talking bout slaves being able bodied T_T

[Anonymous No.20382048]

>>20382003
>you have to prove these slaves were stronger or strong as non slaves
look at the helots of laconia. they would regularly recruit helots as part of a hunger games selection and actively wanted them to be strong

[Anonymous No.20382054]

So unnatural, so degenerate.

[Anonymous No.20382073]

I am so happy I live in this timeline and not the horrible dystopia that depicted here.

[Anonymous No.20382099]

>>20381624
Jesus and Michael are both pretty jacked. Micheal kicks the shit out of Satan and spears a demon. Jesus also dabs on the money lenders in the temple

[Anonymous No.20382115]

>>20381624
Christian sculpture has skinny and weak figures because it puts the main poetic weight of christianity in the moment of death of Christ himself.
The moment is significant because it is the moment the divine itself suffers, It makes any great beyond free of suffering impossible, and forces meaning down into the mortal, suffering realm. Hegel knew this, and in this unorthodox reading of christianity he is honestly more Nietzschean than Nietzsche himself: God himself rejects a 'hinterwelt' and embraces flawed, suffering existence as it is, and loves it.

I think the inability to think the over-man could be a weak, suffering man, and the obsession with a 'strong, dominant' ideal is essentially lapsing back into the last man, a boring, tensionless man comfortable with himself, with is own pleasures, free of suffering. The slave morality is self destructive but the master morality is uninteresting, Nietzsche's goal with his philosophy is not a lapsing back into master morality, but a complex struggle between both master and slave morality. Nietzsche explicitly says this in Geneology of morals.

[Anonymous No.20382147]

[Anonymous No.20382272]

>>20382115
The big problem with your whole point here is that heroes and even gods suffer in Greek thought, offensively throughout their life. If you read Nietzsche you would know his philosophy is all about affirming suffering as opposed to Schopenhauer’s valuation of it as evil

[Anonymous No.20382279]

>>20382003
Slaves had poor diets and often were malnourished

[Anonymous No.20382449]

>>20381681
>achieving divine peacefulness through certain meditative experiences.
But doesn't Christianity put a lot of emphasis on sinning and retribution. I think that's the core concept of Christianity rather than meditation for peacefulness coz even while meditating you are asking for forgiveness.

[Anonymous No.20382879]

>>20382272
Im not saying that all greek culture is somehow bad. Im just saying that the body worship mentioned by OP, of insisting that all good sculpture has to be strong and healthy and should not be weak and suffering is more approaching the last man than it is Nietzsche. As you said its precisely the affirmation of suffering in greek tragedies that Nietzsche bases himself on, and this tragic affirmation is also a core part of Christianity. Contrary to most religions, Christ was not a wise figure that just delivered an eternal doctrine and then cleanly ascended away to the beyond. He affirmed his suffering in an act of love for the world, and left us the holy spirit instead of a rigid doctrine.

I should also specify again that this is based on Hegel's heterodox reading of christianity. Nietzsche is of course correct in saying that in the more standard readings of Christianity, this tragic character tends to degenerate into a hatred of the earthly and bodily rather than a tragic affirmation of it. But in my opinion this standard reading is vulgarizing everthing that makes Christianity different from the philosophy before it. Its this declawed, vulgarized christianity that Nietzsche calls "platonism for the people" but platonism doesnt have the perfect 'One' come down to earth to suffer.

[Anonymous No.20382902]

>>20382023
Wasn’t the Renaissance caused in a roundabout way by some pagan dude in the Byzantine Empire anyway?

[Anonymous No.20382915]

>>20382099
> Jesus also dabs on the money lenders in the temple
telling the one time jesus used violence was to protect the jewish temple on the holy jewish holiday of passover

[Anonymous No.20382927]

>>20381624
no, Spengler dabbed all over him about this

[Anonymous No.20382975]

>dialectics are for the plebs
Was he right?

[Anonymous No.20383032]

>>20382879
>vulgarizing everthing that makes Christianity different from the philosophy before it
nearly unavoidable given that Christianity vulgarized all the philosophy before itself

[Anonymous No.20383111]

>>20383032
lmao yea thats certainly true.

[Anonymous No.20383138]

Nietzsche and all of his followers' contempt for the Holy Church is because they condemn homosexuality and pedophilia.

[Anonymous No.20383251]

>>20381624
The problem with this thought, that I’ve seen a lot here and other boards, is that you’re merging a ton of different cultures and time periods together into one vague general stereotype. You’re doing that for both Pagans and Christians
The pagan gods aren’t all Zeus and Thor. What about Geras, the Greek god of old age? He is depicted as a bent-over, emaciated, shriveled old man. What about aphroditus, a male Aphrodite depicted as a woman with male genitals. The conception that the Greek gods are all mighty muscular men is painting with a VERY broad brush.
Same with Christianity. In medieval times, Jesus was depicted less as a meek humble redeemer, and more as a mighty victorious king. He was depicted leaving the stone tomb carrying a banner of victory. You read things like Done is the battle on the dragon black, or the dream of the rood, and these poems depict Christ in that way. Ezra Pound hated the depictions of Christ as meek or effeminate, so he wrote a poem in that old style called The Goodly Fare.
This isn’t to say “actually pagans are the weak ones and Christians are strong,” please don’t let me be misunderstood. What I’m saying is this talk about “pagans are x, Christians are y” requires huge simplifications. Often people specifically need to discount obvious counter-examples to this claim, with copes like “oh, but those strong Christians were influenced by paganism” or “but those pagan texts were copied and preserved by Christians.”

[Anonymous No.20383901]

..

[Anonymous No.20384216]

>>20381624
The sculpture tradition in Christianity is both. It’s strong, dominant and skinny, oppressed all at the same time. So you get things like a strong, dominant person holding the crucifix which is of skinny, oppressed Jesus.

[Anonymous No.20384241]

consider this is the kind of sculpture christians in germany were making

[Anonymous No.20384272]

>>20384241
So it’s no different from the renaissance depiction of Mary holding Jesus?

[Anonymous No.20384273]

>>20383251
The gods that actually have a substantial mythos and public veneration tended to have athletes model for their statues

The Middle Ages were not big into statues especially as they were still associated with paganism but there are some, often wood

[Anonymous No.20384281]

>>20381624
but nietzsche couldn't exist without the Reformation.

[Anonymous No.20384296]

>>20381624
Strength is more than the physical, the greatest strength is to sacrifice oneself for the greater good.

[Anonymous No.20384306]

>>20384296
>greater good

[Anonymous No.20384314]

>>20381624
Christian artwork is fucking embarrassing. When I was in college I went on a tourist trip to Paris and Rome and hit the famous museums, and all the paintings are of pathetic old men getting tortured or executed. Legitimately more than two-thirds of them.

[Anonymous No.20384318]

>>20381624
People just don’t understand the mindset of the past, especially the medieval one. The modern person is a weakling so looking at a crucifix, he immediately projects his own feeling of weakness and inadequacy onto it, so it naturally disgusts him like it does Nietzsche. To the medieval person, who was by nature strong, the depiction of Jesus on a crucifix naturally inspired other emotions.

[Anonymous No.20384327]

>>20384296
How does Chad's cum taste when you lick it out of your crush's pussy you literal cuck pseudo philosopher. You might as well say
>It's the thought that counts
>It's not about winning, it's about having fun
>All the races are equal
>Oh you don't like me back? Oh.. it's okay. I don't want to be an inconvenience

[Anonymous No.20384328]

>>20384314
Seething shit. It’s better than homo nazi art trying to imitate classical art and failing.

[Anonymous No.20384332]

>>20384328
Yet your entire lives are spent trying and failing to imitate Christ.

[Anonymous No.20384335]

>>20384327
> might is right
> loses

[Anonymous No.20384337]

>>20384241
soul

[Anonymous No.20384344]

>>20384314
>>20384332

So people literally think that nazi art is better than this kind of art >>20384328

Look at how muh strength and dominance makes good soulless, homo art.

[Anonymous No.20384348]

>>20384344
>So you're saying...

[Anonymous No.20384373]

>>20384335
>might doesn't make right
>you lost, therefore you are wrong
nice self-own shit for brains

[Anonymous No.20384378]

>>20384335
Based retard

[Anonymous No.20384379]

>>20384344
>So people literally think that nazi art is better than this kind of art
yes, because you picked a specifically hideous piece.

[Anonymous No.20384385]

>>20384344
I unironically admire Brekker’s sculptures.
I wish I lived in a culture like the Third Reich’s, a culture that made feel proud of myself, with figures such as this to inspire me to reach my highest potential instead of a Judaized demoralizing culture of period blood paintings.
The former is spiritually invigorating, inspiring virtues such as strength and stoicism, the latter is spiritually hollow, encouraging decadence and vice.

[Anonymous No.20384388]

>>20384379
I didn’t. Nazi art literally all looks like that.

[Anonymous No.20384399]

>>20384385
So you admit you’re a loser in life just like the original Nazis?

[Anonymous No.20384406]

>>20384385
Here’s your invigorating and inspiring nazi sculptures brah.

They couldn’t even sculpt horses properly like the classical Greeks.

[Anonymous No.20384414]

>>20384399
weak retort

[Anonymous No.20384418]

>>20384385
That’s nice but Nazis never reached their highest potential because they were losers and their belief in might wasn’t enough to carry them through. People who are naturally weak like the Nazis need to overcompensate through their art.

[Anonymous No.20384420]

>>20384388
Ion know b kinda goes hard no cap

[Anonymous No.20384431]

>>20384388
>>20384399
>>20384406
>>20384418
Shut up Jew, those pieces evoke Germanic myth specifically the Ring of the Nibelung.
Siegfried is the blue eyed and fair haired heroic archetype that appeals to the European racial soul.
Of course you wouldn’t understand, the Jewish racial soul unironically loves to stew in filth and decadence.
I’ve seen your sculptures, a bunch of ugly cubist and postmodern pieces that say nothing and inspire no noble feelings in anyone. You also insert your revolting fetishes in them and any honest white person will admit they find that creepy as hell.

[Anonymous No.20384433]

>>20384385
Nazis were Judaic. In fact, Nazism should be called judeo-Nazism. Just as Jews believe in the chosen race, the nazis believed in the master race.

[Anonymous No.20384437]

>>20384433
I unironically can't tell if this is sublime bait or if you really are that retarded

[Anonymous No.20384442]

>>20384437
he sounds like the average hispanic tradcath on /his/ tbqh

[Anonymous No.20384446]

>>20384431
>a bunch of ugly cubist and postmodern pieces that say nothing and inspire no noble

You do realise that’s European, right? That type of art literally comes from 19th century France. All the earliest and greatest modernist artists were Europeans. Have you never heard of Picasso?

[Anonymous No.20384449]

>>20381624
>Greeks were gay muscle loving queer boys while Christians respected humility
Yeah

[Anonymous No.20384451]

>>20384418
>dismisses the nazis and their opinions purely based off that they "lost"
>this proves that might isn't right
you genuinely need to admit yourself to a mental institution

[Anonymous No.20384457]

>>20384437
>>20384442

How am I wrong? How is chosen race different from master race? Nazism literally has more in common with Judaism than communism does.

I’m not Hispanic or even a Christian. I hate Nazis and since the original Nazis hated Christians, I like Christians.

[Anonymous No.20384459]

>>20384385
Nazism and its art were kitsch and you're a low IQ faggot naturally drawn to kitsch.

[Anonymous No.20384473]

>>20384446
Yeah, I know Picasso. He was depressed and movements like cubism and Dada were born because Europeans got demoralized by WWI.
Obviously the product of diseased minds plagued by depression.
Jews have no excuse, what do they have to be demoralized about?
The only answer is that Jews live to make demoralizing art because they LIKE it.
Whites don’t, at least not the ones that are actually healthy.
Only demoralized, guilt-ridden whites could go to a NYC art gallery featuring ugly art about abortion and call it beautiful or inspiring.
>>20384459
Jews use that word to disparage anything noble, beautiful or sincere.
>oy vey goy, don’t you know beauty, decency, nobility and all that old-fashioned crap is passé? Ugh, how kitsch!

[Anonymous No.20384476]

>>20384473
>don’t you know beauty, decency, nobility and all that old-fashioned crap is passé?

No one said that. We just said that nazi art has no beauty, decency or nobility. It’s shit. Nazis were soulless hacks.

[Anonymous No.20384479]

>>20384473
>Jews use that word to disparage anything noble, beautiful or sincere.
t. 16 years old

They're hideous and gaudy, I don't even consider it art.

[Anonymous No.20384504]

>>20384476
>>20384479
>I-is that a statue of a hero of Germanic myth, promoting physical as well as spiritual beauty and purity, stoicism and duty to the fatherland? Ugh, how gaudy and soulless, it would have been a better use for all that metal to make a sculpture of a bleeding vagina

[Anonymous No.20384509]

>>20384504
>>I-is that a statue of a hero of Germanic myth
Literally "wewuz" tier i.e. kitsch.

[Anonymous No.20384547]

>>20384431
>Siegfried is the blue eyed and fair haired heroic archetype that appeals to the European racial soul.
Enculé de boche larpeur, ta mère est pas ma mère...

[Anonymous No.20384549]

>>20382043
So shit?

[Anonymous No.20384566]

>>20382115
The greatest significance of the crucifixion is not the death, but the resurrection. Christ tramples down death by death

[Anonymous No.20384590]

>>20384549
> I hate the outdoors and have never had any innocent fun with others. I also probably hate animals.
ok fag.

[Anonymous No.20384664]

>>20384457
>I hate Nazis and since the original Nazis hated Christians, I like Christians.
your lazy, stupid kneejerk response is a perfect reflection of your shallow, unthinking worldview. Honestly, people such as yourself shouldn't even be literate

[Anonymous No.20385062]

>>20384566
To some degree this true, but you gotta admit we dont hang our houses and churches and jewlery full of icons of open tombs

[Anonymous No.20385244]

>>20384457
>hurr any ethnocentrism = Judaism
Han Chinese are Jews too now.

[Anonymous No.20385413]

>>20384566
> The greatest significance of the crucifixion is not the death, but the resurrection. Christ tramples down death by death

You would think this would be obvious…

[Anonymous No.20385426]

>>20384273
Aphroditus had substantial public veneration

[Anonymous No.20385460]

>>20384457
>How am I wrong? [Error Does not Compute]. How is chosen race different from master race? [CALCULATING....... A != b?] Nazism literally has more in common with Judaism than communism does. [Analysis: N > J; C ≫ J] Nazism literally has more in common with Judaism than communism does. I’m not Hispanic or even a Christian. [me != H or Y]. I hate Nazis and since the original Nazis hated Christians, I like Christians. [ N = BAD because, N != Y, because Y=GOOD, bad !=good, bad cannot equal good, therefore I like good].
Amazing.

[Anonymous No.20385466]

>>20381846
Do you know nothing about the Renaissance?

[Anonymous No.20385478]

The ideal of men form greeks was srong and dominant and full of muscles because they were all fagg0ts

[Anonymous No.20385978]

>>20381624
Yes he was. Then the renaissance came and they rediscovered ancient greco-roman statues which made them realize how cringe those emaciated tortured christian sculptures are.

Michelangelo made them all look powerful. Not a coincidence the reformation also came around this time.

>>20381846
Read history. Also, ask yourself who promulgated gargoyles - not greeks.

[Anonymous No.20386242]

>>20385478
tell that to your bull

[Anonymous No.20386309]

>>20385978
Gargoyles are cool

[Anonymous No.20386522]

>>20385978
>Also, ask yourself who promulgated gargoyles - not greeks.
Actually, yes, the greeks, but they put lions heads traditionally. The Egyptians also did it before them, but it was mostly pushed as a thing in medieval ages by the French.

[Anonymous No.20386564]

Greeks had three ideals of masculinity, Hercules, Odysseus, and Perseus, that in today's parlance roughly translate to Bear, Wolf, Otter.

[Anonymous No.20386683]

>>20384431
you sound like the a seething, weak minded little rat.

[Anonymous No.20386704]

>>20382054
>>20382073
>I wish I could've lived in the Age of Ignorance before Christ, when I would have been utterly incapable of attaining salvation and eternal life
Ummm Pagansister????

[Anonymous No.20387372]

>>20382043
No it doesn't because fascism only existed in modernity. The hippies would be a more accurate depiction.

[Anonymous No.20387388]

>>20384335
oops

[Anonymous No.20387581]

>>20386704
Read your Catechism mate, anyone who has lived according to the Spirit of God will be saved.

[Anonymous No.20387623]

>>20384241
DYEL