/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20259052]

Admit it, he ruined the fantasy genre.

[Anonymous No.20259070]

>>20259052
H-Howard sama...I kneeru...

[Anonymous No.20259071]

>>20259052
I thought the same as you, until I started reading Modern fantasy and realize that Tolkien was the pinnacle and which no one can surpass. Especially now with fantasy authors making self-inserts of themselves.

[Anonymous No.20259111]

>>20259052
>Admit it, he ruined the fantasy genre.
God, no. If anything, Tolkien is the father of Fantasy for a reason. Compare his works to all the others and you can see why he's so revered. Just taking a look at modern fantasy and you can't convince me that this isn't the worst introduction to a fantasy world ever.

"One cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten.
The citadel of Ishuäl succumbed during the height of the Apocalypse. But no army of inhuman Sranc had scaled its ramparts. No furnace-hearted dragon had pulled down its mighty gates. Ishuäl was the secret refuge of the Kûniüric High Kings, and no one, not even the No-God, could besiege a secret.
Months earlier, Anasûrimbor Ganrelka II, High King of Kûniüri, had fled to Ishuäl with the remnants of his household. From the walls, his sentries stared pensively across the dark forests below, their thoughts stricken by memories of burning cities and wailing multitudes. When the wind moaned, they gripped Ishuäl’s uncaring stone, reminded of Sranc horns. They traded breathless reassurances. Had they not eluded their pursuers? Were not the walls of Ishuäl strong? Where else might a man survive the end of the world?
The plague claimed the High King first, as was perhaps fitting: Ganrelka had only wept at Ishuäl, raged the way only an Emperor of nothing could rage. The following night the members of his household carried his bier down into the forests. They glimpsed the eyes of wolves reflected in the light of his pyre. They sang no dirges, intoned only a few numb prayers.
Before the morning winds could sweep his ashes skyward, the plague had struck two others: Ganrelka’s concubine and her daughter. As though pursuing his bloodline to its thinnest tincture, it assailed more and more members of his household. The sentries upon the walls became fewer, and though they still watched the mountainous horizon, they saw little. The cries of the dying crowded their thoughts with too much horror.
Soon even the sentries were no more. The five Knights of Trysë who’d rescued Ganrelka after the catastrophe on the Fields of Eleneöt lay motionless in their beds. The Grand Vizier, his golden robes stained bloody by his bowel, lay sprawled across his sorcerous texts. Ganrelka’s uncle, who’d led the heartbreaking assault on Golgotterath’s gates in the early days of the Apocalypse, hung from a rope in his chambers, slowly twisting in a draft. The Queen stared endlessly across festering sheets."

[Anonymous No.20259115]

It wasn't his fault though

[Anonymous No.20259141]

>>20259111
same one excerpt LULE

[Anonymous No.20259142]

>>20259111
Yeah he ruined fantasy even though LOTR is good by spawning garbage like that

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.20259159]

He did but not because of lack of quality, he did because his style traveled like an all-devouring infection which took over the style of the majority of fantasy writers, he is the king of their style and originator, I prefer the older style of which he was a member, which required studied of folk tale, fairy tale, religion and often decadent art and even language itself, the imaginations of the old fantasists was born from many cultures and traditions, the imagination of the modern fantasist is by majority a child of Tolkien or an incestual grandchild of tolkiens, maybe with some shades of Robert e Howard-moorcock or lovecraft thrown into depending.

Imo dunsany is far and away the best fantasy writer if we don’t consider the extent of fantasy, if we use the traditional conception of it, the “fairy way of writing “ in which the fantastical and religious and mythic are used, it’s a debate where Dante, Virgil, Ovid, Shakespeare and Spenser tower as titans above all else.

The fact the likes of eta Hoffman, Jean paul richter and, to some degree, Lewis caroll don’t come up when the topic is fantasy literature, shows just how much Tolkien gobbled up the genre, and transformed formed it into a mythic form of writing into incestual replicants fixated on world building.

I don’t even dislike worldbuilding, I just find it nonsense when someone tries to worldbuild, who doesn’t have an appreciation for this world’s cultures and beauties first, which will always result in their worlds being strictly inferior worlds.

[Anonymous No.20259177]

>>20259142
He didn't. Not his fault hacks can't be original in their works.

[Anonymous No.20259183]

>>20259052
nah

[Anonymous No.20259197]

>>20259159
this.

Tolkien's work is the GOAT because he was an Oxford leading scholar on ancient and medieval myth, being the go-to translation on Beowulf until Heaney (and I still prefer Tolkien). He appreciated history and myth. He helped write the Oxford English Dictionary. He was a bloodied infantry officer in the First World War. He was a devout Catholic.
Tolkien's fantasy was absolutely a product of his entire being, a very real but very mystical being.
How can some fat nerd compete?

[Anonymous No.20259287]

He started the fantasy genre.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.20259321]

>>20259287
Nah he didn’t, as it exists now he did, but there’s plenty of authors who wrote fantasy and even fantasy worlds prior to him. E. R. Eddison and Dunsany are both high fantasy pre Tolkien, the first is even pretty systematic. And these Again aren’t the first, and it’s not like that style of writing was invented by him either, whether we go to people like John Mandeville who effectively re-imagine how eastern cultures operate, or reformulate a singular county into a fantasy of theirs like Anthony Trollope.

But again, Tolkien is big for his autistic systemization and standardization mixed with his talent, I do not think him the greatest fantasist but he is undoubtably the father of the fantasy-world-building.

[Anonymous No.20259369]

>>20259052
No, it was millennials.
Who made fantasy a cash cosws for corporations after the succes of the LoRT? And who decided tto mindlessly consume the crappy works corporations spawned? And who calls you a chud and schizo for not liking the lastest fantasy shit inspired by definitively not Rowling starring a purple haired latinx that speaks with ebonics?
Millennials. They are to blame for every woke trend that has managed to make rich men even more richer.

[Anonymous No.20259376]

>>20259052
>genre
>>not ruined be default

[Anonymous No.20259389]

>>20259052
To blame Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock or Lewis for the sins of later fantasy authors is downright stupid. You want to know who really ruined the fantasy genre? Philip Pullman. Pullman's His Dark Materials caused the rise of soulless bullshit we have now

[Anonymous No.20259413]

>>20259376
He ruined it by inventing it.

[Anonymous No.20259517]

>>20259052
He began and ended High Fantasy and adapted classic sagas in a way that resonated with millions of people. One of the most important authors of the 20th Century, his works will be remembered longer than those of a lot of other big 20th Century names.

[Anonymous No.20259543]

>>20259052
I'm sad I'll never be as soulful as him. To gain even quarter of it would be amazing.

[Anonymous No.20259549]

>>20259052
In what way, lol?

[Anonymous No.20259611]

>>20259052
Admit it. You ruin /lit/ with this low effort bait thread.

[Anonymous No.20259833]

>>20259321
nope, he invented the genre. Its exists now because he invented it.

[Anonymous No.20259845]

>>20259052
The guy brought class to the fantasy genre which is lacking in many midwit modern fantasy writers.

[Anonymous No.20259945]

>>20259071
>>20259111
>>20259115
>>20259142
>>20259159
>>20259177
>>20259197
>>20259287
>>20259321
>>20259413
>>20259517
>>20259549
>>20259611
>>20259833
>>20259845
Tolkien did not invent the fantasy genre. Fantasy was a genre already established long before tolkien put pen to paper. If we discount gothic fiction then even then we have authors in the british isles such as George MacDonald, E.R Eddison, William Morris, H Rider Haggard and Lord Dunsany who were writing far better material when what tolkien would ever manage to put to paper. Across the pond you had authors such as Lovecraft, Robert E Howard and Clark Ashton Smith who were making waves in the pulps. Tolkien wasn't even that popular until the mid eighties and early nineties when epic fantasy suddenly grew in popularity and eclipsed the novel which at that time had been home to sword and sorcery.
How did this hack author with his work which is HEAVILY influenced by Wagner, Eddison and Morris suddenly grow so popular while pre tolkien authors are basically reduced to a state of utter obscurity?

[Anonymous No.20259948]

>>20259052
Fantasy genre... it was nothing before him.

[Anonymous No.20259950]

>>20259948
wrong
>>20259945

[Anonymous No.20259962]

>>20259945
You are absolutely retarded. It was extremely popular in the 60s and 70s

[Anonymous No.20259966]

If tolkein wrote the exact same stuff he wrote from 1920-1960 today, in 2020 it would be an absolute cringe fest
If you wrote about people smoting hosts of others today, you're a faggot. Absolute pretentious piece of shit
but you aren't if you write that and you're tolkein

[Anonymous No.20259972]

>>20259962
As were elric, conan and countless others but (((tolkienites))) ignore those and subvert them

[Anonymous No.20259992]

If you're over 18, why would you read this? It has no value whatsoever. Every fantasy writer is a failed writer, one that wasnt able to write proper adult writing. Dont be a manchild. Peace faggots.

[Anonymous No.20260052]

>>20259945
No, Tolkien invented it. Before him all fantasy was connected to the real world usually Christian.
Tolkien invented the idea of a completely other fantasy world.
>How did this hack author with his work which is HEAVILY influenced by Wagner
You are an idiot. Repeating the baseless attacks by a Swedish translator of LoTR that had some sort of issue with Tolkien.
Tolkien didn't copy wagner. He had access to the texts that Wagner based his work on.

[Anonymous No.20260055]

>>20259972
>brackets
Complete imbecilic /pol/tard. Tolkien was reportedly a fan of Conan.

[Anonymous No.20260057]

>>20260052
Blah blah, fantasy is shit. Inventing shit is shitty. Tolkien? More like Tolkshit.

I'm out.

[Anonymous No.20260071]

>>20260057
thanks for conceding.

[Anonymous No.20260074]

>>20259966
>smoting

[Anonymous No.20260121]

What causes /lit/ retards to be in a constant seethe over tolkien?

He's basically one the giants of literature and he will be remembered for centuries and I'm 100% sure he will join the western canon at some point.

HE'S THE ONE TO INVENT FANTASY.
His literary influence over one of the biggest literary genres now in terms of books sold can't be denied.

HE'S THE ONE.
Everyone after him tries to debunk him or just try to rip off him.

He's to fantasy what Asimoc, and wells and verne is to sci fi.

Why not make a porn thread instead of talking shit about tolkien on lit?

[Anonymous No.20260126]

>>20260121
Literally because he's popular and /lit/ reads for social capital and one-upsmanship if they even bother at all.

[Anonymous No.20260129]

>>20260121
>What causes /lit/ retards to be in a constant seethe over tolkien?
Because Tolkien is a genre writer who is accepted to be literature.

[Anonymous No.20260139]

>>20260121
probably hiberno-cabalists. They are always secretly attacking Anglo-saxon writers like Tolkien and Rowling.

[Anonymous No.20260175]

>>20260121
/lit/ is full of people who hate beauty.

[Anonymous No.20260221]

>genreshit
>leetratche
heh

[Anonymous No.20260371]

>>20260121
>>20260175
/lit/ is full of pretentious assholes who think they’re clever but are at best, Reddit-tier intelligence

[Anonymous No.20260761]

Calling Tolkien a fantasy author is an insult to Tolkien. Fantasy is juvenile trash.

[Anonymous No.20260771]

>>20260121
>What causes /lit/ retards to be in a constant seethe over tolkien?
Mostly anglophobic chuds who can't handle the fact that their 'opressor' and the 'most evil nation' wrote so much literary KINO.

[Anonymous No.20261351]

>>20260052
>No, Tolkien invented it. Before him all fantasy was connected to the real world usually Christian.
LOTR is connected to the real world.
If LOTR is somehow a completely different fantasy world then R E Howard's Hyboria is and that was written 30 years before tolkien ever put out LOTR. Clark Ashton Smith, Robert E Howard, even Edgar Rice Burroughs invented fantasy which isn't connected to the real world years before tolkien
Tolkien just ripped off william morris and e r eddision you delusional tolkienite fanboy

[Anonymous No.20261364]

>>20260121
>He's basically one the giants of literature and he will be remembered for centuries and I'm 100% sure he will join the western canon at some point.
>HE'S THE ONE TO INVENT FANTASY.
>His literary influence over one of the biggest literary genres now in terms of books sold can't be denied.
>HE'S THE ONE.
>Everyone after him tries to debunk him or just try to rip off him.
Nope
Howard, Lovecraft, Ashton Smith, Eddison, Burroughs and Morris invented fantasy long before t*lkien

[Anonymous No.20261395]

>>20259052
D&D autists ruined the fantasy genre. That's why it's all now the same derivative shit. Those smelly fucks pushed out anyone with an ounce of originality or creativity and that's why you have the same shit with a different label. Same thing happened with the gooks and their webnovels.

[Anonymous No.20261406]

>>20259287
*enlightens ur path*

[Anonymous No.20262252]

>>20259945
You're a fucking midwit. Of course tales of fairie already existed before. Tolkien is very frank on where he got his inspiration and even his works speak for themselves. (example: Túrin Turambar = Kullervo)
Tolkien did invent the Fantasy Genre as we know it today (in which before had already declined and regarded as infantile; solely for children), as the majority of fantasy books draw from Tolkien; be it in admiration, like Bakker, or in subversion, like George Martin. Indeed others helped in the revitalisation of the genre, like CS Lewis or Michael Moorcock. But none had the same impact as Tolkien.
The Hobbit, which had been published in '37 was already a popular success. Such much so that an equally popular sequel had been made.
>HEAVILY influenced by Wagner
Fucking what?

[Anonymous No.20262296]

>>20260121
I have literally never read any of Tolkien's books. I haven't seen any of the films either. It doesn't look all that impressive from the outside.

[Anonymous No.20262355]

>>20260121
People who don't like Tolkien are people really, -really- hate classicism of any sort, and tend to lack patience. Tolkien spends more time telling you the lore and culture of his world than focusing on the inner struggles and minds of the characters.

Tolkien is -soaking- in aesthetic appreciation, which drives character-driven story lovers up the frigging walls. There is no better way to get the little ADHD ratbrains upset than have them have to look at and sit still in a story for five minutes, and LotR spends -hours- telling you how gorgeous a single house, be it ever so humble can be.

[Anonymous No.20262373]

>>20262355
I "hate" Tolkien because I am a classicist. He's too infantile and simple minded.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.20262428]

Tolkien is kino and his songs are very nice. It’s not an either or question, you can enjoy both the pre-Tolkien writers and see value in him also.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRVIVJjuaHE

[Anonymous No.20262499]

>>20262373
Pray tell what exactly is simple-minded about The Silmarillion?

The Hobbit is written for children, so I'll grant you that, but for the rest of the Legendarium you have no legitimate excuse, anon.

[Anonymous No.20262603]

>>20262499
>Pray tell
Neck yourself

[Anonymous No.20262862]

>>20259052
Tolkien is only so visible because he's the only one to write a decent fantasy in over a hundred years. It's your mediocrity that compels you to see him in your own emptiness.

[Anonymous No.20263673]

>>20262252
>Of course tales of fairie already existed before
Midwit detected
Robert E Howard wrote no faerie tales. the wor mouroborus is not a fairie tale, nor is the house of the wolflings, neither are hp lovecrafts or clark ashton smiths works. you've never read any work of pre tolkien fantasy you delusional fanboy midwit
>dude fantasy was for children and only cosisted of fairy tales before muh tolkien came around
try reading some conan or some solomon kane and tell me it's for children. they make tolkien look like teletubbies in comparison

[Anonymous No.20263684]

>>20262862
>Tolkien is only so visible because he's the only one to write a decent fantasy in over a hundred years. It's your mediocrity that compels you to see him in your own emptiness.
>he has never read r e howard
>he has never read hp lovecraft
>he has never read clark ashton smith
>he has never read william morris
>he has never read e r eddison
>he has the gall to say tolkien is the only one to write decent fantasy
off yourself tolkien fanboy

[Anonymous No.20263936]

>>20262499
>pray tell
I cringed so hard when I read this

[Anonymous No.20264043]

>>20263673
You fucking idiot. You mention Howard, Lovecraft and Ashton Smith as if they weren't Tolkien's contemporaries. In the case of CAS, he knew of Tolkien and certainly had read The Hobbit.

[Anonymous No.20264068]

>>20262603
>>20263936
>ad-hominems when shown to be blatantly wrong

[Anonymous No.20264117]

>>20264043
They literally wrote before Tolkien you delusional tolkien fanboy
The hobbit was released in 1937, a year AFTER Howard had shot himself, and Conan had been writing stories set in the Hyborian age since the early thirties.
This isn't even mentioning William Morris and E R Eddison, the worm ouroborous having been released in 1922, or lovecraft's The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath
which was written in 1927.
None of these authors had any contact with tolkien by the time they were writing them. Stop coping and accept the fact that your shitty author did not invent the fantasy genre and just plagiarised eddison, morris and wagner

[Anonymous No.20264129]

>>20264043
They literally wrote before Tolkien you delusional tolkien fanboy
The hobbit was released in 1937, a year AFTER Howard had shot himself, and Howard had been writing stories set in the Hyborian age since the early thirties, and had been writing in the stories with set in the thurian age with king kull as the protagonist before the thirties.
This isn't even mentioning William Morris and E R Eddison, the worm ouroborous having been released in 1922, or lovecraft's The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath
which was written in 1927.
None of these authors had any contact with tolkien by the time they were writing them. Stop coping and accept the fact that your shitty author did not invent the fantasy genre and just plagiarised eddison, morris and wagner

[Anonymous No.20264179]

>>20264117
Of course they didn't have contact, being a continent apart. They're still contemporaries.
But if you want to go by 'who wrote what and when' first, then hear. The Hobbit was indeed published in 1937, but you forget that he'd been working on his Legendarium for a couple of decades, by then. The Tale of the Fall of Gondolin had been written in 1916, while he was still serving in WW1. The Tale of Tinuviel had been written between 1916/17. The Tale of Turambar and the Foalókë had been written in 1919. By the early 1920's Tolkien's Book of Lost Tales had been finished was already working on a newer version of his world; the Quenta Noldorinwa.

[Anonymous No.20264183]

>>20264179
being an entire Ocean apart*

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.20264208]

>>20264179
Don’t do this man it’s not a winning game, caroll wrote before Tolkien was even born, same with George Macdonald. Dunsany and Macdonald both were direct influences on Tolkien and simply wrote before he did. You can respect Tolkien for being good and being innovative in the terms of mechanical systemization of his world and linguistics in a way the other fantasists weren’t.

But again, you’re not gonna get Alice in wonderland. (Nor the elder tales of fairy-land which so much folklore and poetry have been written concerning, again, Shakespeare is without a doubt a king of fantasy literature if we count the older material.)

[Anonymous No.20264220]

>>20259111
B-Bakker sisters????

[Anonymous No.20264227]

>>20264179
>But if you want to go by 'who wrote what and when' first, then hear. The Hobbit was indeed published in 1937, but you forget that he'd been working on his Legendarium for a couple of decades, by then. The Tale of the Fall of Gondolin had been written in 1916, while he was still serving in WW1. The Tale of Tinuviel had been written between 1916/17. The Tale of Turambar and the Foalókë had been written in 1919. By the early 1920's Tolkien's Book of Lost Tales had been finished was already working on a newer version of his world; the Quenta Noldorinwa.
The house of the Wolflings was literally published in 1889, before tolkien had even been born.
"B-but it's set in the ancient past and not in a different world"
Tolkien's middle earth is explicitely set in earth's ancient past. Even Tolkien admitted that the house of the wolflings was a huge influence to him and that he would never be able to match it.
There's also a A Princess of Mars, which was first published in 1912, set in a fictional version of mars featuring kingdoms, different races, architecture, technology, science and even a Barsoomian language. Long before tolkien had ever put anything about middle earth to paper.
Tolkien did not invent fantasy you delusional tolkiendrone. Tolkien took from better fantasy writers and made it worse and more palatable to the general public

[Anonymous No.20264319]

>>20264208
It's not about winning. It's about clarification.
I'd previously mentioned that indeed fantasy books had existed before Tolkien; Carol, Dunsany, the Brothers Grimm. All of these wrote before Tollers. All of these influenced him in one way or another.
>Macdonald
Having a brainfart. Whom is he?
My point (which I might have wandered with the talk?) was that Tolkien saw the state of the Fantasy genre and how it was regarded back then; as Fairie stories, with children as the appointed audience and in danger of disappearing. (The other anon had mentioned authors of Tolkien's lifetime, yet Tolkien and most in Europe would not have initially known of, or without enough time to culturaly inspire).
From the state in which the fantasy genre was, be it in North America, be it in the UK and the rest of Europe, books were deleveloped somewhat independently from one another. But as time shows, Tolkien had the bigger influence. Indeed people like Howard still gathered popularity, to give credit where it is due; the term 'Sword and Sorcery' does come mainly from his stories of Conan and of Kull. However it is to Tolkien that most people think when the modern concept of "Fantasy" comes to mind. As examples: his idea of the Elves supplanted any previous idea of that imaginary race; the name "Dwarves" (pl.), rather than the now rarely used "Dwarfs", comes singularly from Tolkien.

[Anonymous No.20264425]

>>20264319
Why are Tolkien fanboys like this?
Pre Tolkien fantasy was not all fairy stories. There are the authors and tales i have listed in the thread, NONE of which wrote fairy stories and all of which wrote tales which are far more violent and bloodsoaked than anything tolkien write. Again, you keep pushing muh fairy stories myth and ignore authors like Edgar Rice Burroughs and his barsoom series, which, written in 1912, feature a red handed hero set to a martian world of vying kingdoms, races, climates, weapons, technology and a Barsoomian language. All you can do is ignore this because you've been consistently blown the fuck out and shown that your father figure tolkien was not original and did not invent fantasy

[Anonymous No.20264434]

>>20264319
>>20264425
There's also the fact that Tolkien did not grow in popularity until the late sixties, and did not explode in popularity until the late eighties. Yes, he was popular, but he was regarded alongside Howard, Meritt, Burroughs, Dunsany and others. He was not the god of fantasy like you tolkienite scum regard him as. Sword and Sorcery was more popular than tolkien until the mid eighties, and Conan was more widely known than frodo or gandalf or aragorn

[Anonymous No.20264975]

>>20262252
>Fucking what?
Yes Wagner was a huge influence on Tolkien, this is obvious to anybody who has read Wagner, Tolkien and the medieval source material.

[Anonymous No.20266287]

Why do trannys hate tolkien?

[Anonymous No.20266289]

>>20264975
you are retarded stop being fucking retarded. Tolkien was inspired by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied

Not Wagner. This was a slanderous smear directed at him by an idiot translator.

[Anonymous No.20266316]

>>20266287
>You cannot pass

[Anonymous No.20266318]

who was Tolkiens target audience? the neckbeard did not exist

[Anonymous No.20266323]

>>20259945
>HEAVILY influenced by Wagner
This has to be bait, otherwise you're a massive retard

[Anonymous No.20266328]

>>20259321
tripfag opinion discarded

[Anonymous No.20266334]

>>20264129
Anon, don't bother, fanboys will never listen.

[Anonymous No.20266335]

>>20264434
Your hateboner for him must on another level to willfully ignore what I said. You keep saying "[Tolkien] did not invent fantasy" and "he was not original". I did not claim otherwise. Keep bashing your strawman for all I care.
>There are authors I have listed in the thread.
Yes, you keeps bringing them up, as if they're good examples of "Pre Tolkien fantasy"; all Americans whose works of more fame were published and popularised in the first half of the 20th century. Again, all of them contemporaries of Tolkien.
>Sword and Sorcery was more popular than tolkien until the mid eighties, and Conan was more widely known than frodo or gandalf or aragorn
Really much doubt it. Calling your bullshit. Indeed by the late 60s his works were as popular in America (since that seems like your sole basis) as Howard's.

[Anonymous No.20266346]

I read a lot of [retards] try to appropriate Tolkien but he very deliberately wrote this for English people and based on Anglo-saxon myth and culture. He says this he wrote an Anglo-saxon fantasy myth world. The names in LoTRs are literally Anglo-saxon.
Legendary Elf Mariner Eärendil (Anglo-saxon name)
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/E%C3%A4rendil
His Anglo-saxon descendant Ælfwine
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/%C3%86lfwine

Anglo-saxons had Elf themed names.

[Anonymous No.20266349]

>>20266346
It's not that simple, he also took direct inspiration from beyond the Anglo-Saxon world. Some of his greates influences were Homer, the Bible, the Kalevala, the Eddas and sagas, and he Tolkienized names and concepts from these.

[Anonymous No.20267640]

>>20266335
>I did not claim otherwise
You stated that all fantasy before tolkien was fairy stories. Please tell me how Edgar Rice Burrough's barsoom is a fairy story even though it's set in a fantastical mars with constant warfare, different cultures, races, climates, nations and even a barsoomian language. And it was written in 1912.
>Yes, you keeps bringing them up, as if they're good examples of "Pre Tolkien fantasy"; all Americans whose works of more fame were published and popularised in the first half of the 20th century. Again, all of them contemporaries of Tolkien.
Yeah, they are good examples of pre tolkien fantasy
And tell me how George Macdonald, E R Eddison and William Morris were "Americans" you dumb tolkientard. and they were not contemporaries of tolkien. They had literally no contact with tolkien in the slightest. The Lovecraft circle had never heard of tolkien when they were writing for weird tales and william morris died when tolkien was four years old. You're delusional, tolkientard
>Really much doubt it. Calling your bullshit. Indeed by the late 60s his works were as popular in America (since that seems like your sole basis) as Howard's.
A.Meritt was the most popular american fantasy author in the 60's. Sword and sorcery was more popular than tolkien, that's a fact.

[Anonymous No.20267880]

i like teh hobbit

[Anonymous No.20269047]

>>20260129
All fiction is genre. You're all retarded.

[Anonymous No.20270071]

>>20259052
No

[Anonymous No.20270177]

>>20260121
>He's basically one the giants of literature and he will be remembered for centuries and I'm 100% sure he will join the western canon at some point.
based. so will Rowling

[Anonymous No.20270201]

>>20266289
Tolkien was inspired by both, this is basically a non-question. Btw the 'both ring's were round' quote was more in response to the stupid translator than to the idea of an influence.

>he links the Nibelungenlied wikipedia article
Who tf doesn't know about the Nibelungenlied??? No one here has denied Tolkien and Wagner have the same mythological influences, but Wagner was also an influence. We can be sure Tolkien's Ring wouldn't exist without him.

[Anonymous No.20270876]

>>20270201
No he wasn't stfu already, he hated Wagner. He was inspired by similar texts that Wagner loosely based his work on.
This accusation was deliberately created by the provocative translator who had obviously something wrong with him, he publicly said Tolkien was a bad writer and his fans were into witchcraft.

[Anonymous No.20270976]

>>20259071
Unlike nu-fantasy, Bakker strongly honours Tolkien. And that is not his self-insert. You haven't even read him if you believe such nonsense.

[Anonymous No.20270985]

>>20259052
>t. can't into philology

[Anonymous No.20270989]

>>20260052
Wagner wasn't original either. He based the Rent cycle on the Nibelungenlied and other texts.

[Anonymous No.20270991]

>>20260121
I love Tolkien but he did not invent fantasy. Fantasy has existed since antiquity.

[Anonymous No.20271009]

>>20270876
>This accusation was deliberately created by the provocative translator
Yeah everyone who has come to this conclusion like Scruton was definitely influenced by some nobody translator. We know Tolkien studied (even attempted translating) Wagner's Ring with the Wagnerite Lewis shortly before writing The Lord of the Rings. And there's quite a few records of 'profound discussions' about Wagner's Ring at the same time as well.

If you're familiar with all three sources (which you're obviously not) then this is obvious.

[Anonymous No.20271014]

>>20266346
>Anglo-saxons had Elf themed names.
They're not elf-themed. Germanic names are certain 1-2 words and they are recycled generationally. Alfred also has 'elf' in it. It doesn't mean some being or creature. It just means fairy generically and it may not have any meaning in a name because names typically don't evoke meaning, even if meaning can be read from them, they evoke a person. They become mindless objects of custom.

[Anonymous No.20271027]

>>20270989
>Wagner wasn't original either. He based the Rent cycle on the Nibelungenlied and other texts.
The Ring is an entirely different world from the original sources, it's the equivalent of the Faust myth and Goethe's Faust. The all-powerful cursed Ring was, for example, Wagner's invention.

>the lord of the ring as the slave of the ring.

[Anonymous No.20271045]

>>20270976
I doubt a seething leftist atheist could ever honor Tolkien. But you already knew that.

[Anonymous No.20271066]

>>20271014
>they aren't
>but they are
The fuck is your problem?
They do have Elf themed names, Like Elf-friend or Elf-beauty.
Elf does not mean fairy. It means Elf as in the Elf from Germanic myth, what Tolkien based his work on.
Fuck off with your shitty lies.

[Anonymous No.20271069]

>>20271014
I don't know of you are retarded but Anglo-saxon names like generally all names have meaning,

[Anonymous No.20271075]

>>20271009
Stop lying. This is a common lie that is levelled at authors who draw inspiration from the source material.
LotR is nothing like Wagners work. Tolkein who had access to the original myths didn't copy a contemporary author. It doesn't make any sense

[Anonymous No.20271079]

Who are Tolkien equivalents for Spain, Italy and France?

[Anonymous No.20271082]

>>20271027
stop lying
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andvaranaut

Its disgusting how much you lie.

[Anonymous No.20271094]

>>20270991
No he invented fantasy. The key difference is that pre-fantasy authors before Tolkien always based their world in the real world.
Tolkien created an original world, its a novel concept.

[Anonymous No.20271103]

>>20259287

[Anonymous No.20271104]

>>20271103
see>>20271094

[Anonymous No.20271114]

>>20271103
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_tale
Not fantasy.

[Anonymous No.20271116]

>>20271075
>This is a common lie that is levelled at authors
Nice cope. No one's denigrating Tolkien here, they're only saying he was strongly influenced by Wagner, just like he was by any of his other influences. I don't even see what you're calling a 'lie', the well documented evidence? Your arguments are basically schizophrenic at this point and have no foundation.

>It doesn't make any sense
So contrary to the hard evidence that Tolkien was interested in Wagner, and the many similarities between the works which are to be found no where else, you have a feeling that it's not in Tolkien's character?

>>20271082
>all-powerful ring
You're literally retarded. Typical Tolkienfag doesn't even know the medieval sources yet wants to talk about them.

[Anonymous No.20271134]

>>20271116
he wasn't influenced by Wagner
>strongly
You are a fucking weasel, go fuck yourself you lying turd.
Your lies are so flimsy they can EASILY be debunked with a 5 second search.

The ring was self-referencing, he used the Hobbit as the source.

>y-you Tolkien fan!
You are a lying trolling biased faggot.

[Anonymous No.20271160]

>>20271116
This is the equivalent of saying you have two stories titled roughly "the ring" inspired by similar material (rings frequently appear in myth and invisibility rings aren't even in wagner, most likely inspired by Plato.

Wagner's was a retelling of Nibelungenlied. Tolkien is partially drawing inspiration from things like Volsung.

You can't build an argument with lies.

[Anonymous No.20271171]

>>20271116
if you actually both to compare both works Tolken's statement, "they are both round, thats where it ends" Is true. Since the stories are nothing alike as is the function of the ring.

[Anonymous No.20271174]

>>20271171
actually bother*

[Anonymous No.20271187]

>>20271116
educate yourself halfwit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Sigurd_and_Gudr%C3%BAn

Tolkien was a leading expert on Germanic myth.
he could read Icelandic.
Wagner based his work on a latter 18th century text.
Now why would someone trying to write English myth use a 19th century work based on a 18th century work based on an older saga. When he can just read the Saga? that is closest to his Old English story.

[Anonymous No.20271189]

>>20271134
Lmao look at the freakout. Not an argument in sight.

>>20271160
>Wagner's was a retelling of Nibelungenlied.
No it's not, try actually knowing anything about Wagner if you want to discuss him.

>>20271171
Once again, no one has denied Tolkien's originality. He hasn't ripped off Wagner, but there are numerous things which could obviously only come from Wagner. The ring is the most iconic since both series are literally about that, but it's far from the only influence. They're different stories, but throughout Tolkien's story there are things taken from Wagner.

[Anonymous No.20271199]

>>20271189
You realise everytime you start your posts like thus you are just admitting you are a troll.
>No it's not, try actually knowing anything about Wagner if you want to discuss him.
Caught lying again
>Background and context

Wagner had long been interested in early Norse and German heroic poetry, including the medieval German epic Nibelungenlied (“Song of the Nibelung”), when he sketched out a prose version of the Nibelung myth in 1848. His first libretto to use that version was called Siegfrieds Tod (“The Death of Siegfried”), which became the basis of Götterdämmerung.

>there are numerous things which could obviously only come from Wagner.
How? when all the things come from BEFORE Wagner.

This reminds me of a case when two authors wrote
a murder mystery, the first claimed the second copied them.
Even though the first essentially used cliche murder mystery plot devices and both authors drew from these.

Can i ask are you Finnish?

[Anonymous No.20271200]

>>20271187
Wagner could also read Icelandic and adapted Iceland's verse in a very complex manner. His main sources were a variety of Germanic and Scandinavians myths, not an 18th century text. Again, why don't any of you Tolkienfags do some research on Wagner before talking about him?

I at no point denied Tolkien being influenced by the original sources. Look who's being a weasel now.

>When he can just read the Saga? that is closest to his Old English story.
Because he's an artist and is concerned with more than just an adaptation? He saw the potential in elements of Wagner, and made use of them for his own interests. Wagner in his romanticism had a similar aim to Tolkien, to write a national myth.

[Anonymous No.20271205]

>>20271189
Can you name one thing Tokien took from Wagner? you can't. The Ring is not an example. Cursed invisibility rings and powerful artefacts exists before Wagner in the myth Tolkien was an expert in.

If you are even casually familiar with Anglo-saxon myth and Tolkien, you can tell his main inspiration was Beowulf

[Anonymous No.20271209]

>>20271200
Wagner explicitly got his inspiration from Nibelungenlied.
An 18th century text BASED on Volsunga saga.
You got caught lying again

[Anonymous No.20271215]

>>20271200
>Because he's an artist and is concerned with more than just an adaptation
Hes a scholar you anti-intellectual dog shit brained prick.
He was an expert in language and myth. He was creating his own myth to a painfully specific design and specification.

[Anonymous No.20271220]

>>20271200
I swear you must be one of these idiots that think because Tolkien was a Germanic expert he was focused on Germany.
This is so utterly moronic, fuck you.

[Anonymous No.20271230]

>>20271200
So, /lit/ really doesn't read.

[Anonymous No.20271234]

>>20271200
Why would Tolkein who wanted to write an ENGLISH myth use German modern shit?

[Anonymous No.20271244]

>>20271199
>>Background and context
You're just making a fool of yourself. Only the second half of the Ring used the story of the Nibelungenlied, and even then it's basically a different story. Much closer to the Volsunga Saga. But the originality with which Wagner combined his sources and added makes it it's own unique story. Just as much as Tolkien's, if not more.

>How? when all the things come from BEFORE Wagner.
No, they didn't. There are countless we could focus on, but to continue on what has already been mentioned, I know of no previous story with an all powerful ring which has been cursed by a powerful evil being to whom if the ring were returned it would basically make unstoppable and dominate the entire world. The specific lines Alberich curses it with are 'the lord of the ring as the slave of the ring'. Alberich who is doing everything he can to get back the ring in the rest of the story was split into two for Tolkien, Sauron and Gollum (who is much closer in his pathetic obsession and short goblin-like visage). Plus it was gained at one point by one brother murdering another shortly after they have found it, and then he sits on it for a large part of the story. Secondly there are the industrial undertones to both Alberich and Sauron, and in general the symbolism of power uprooting nature.

This is only one of many things.

>Can i ask are you Finnish?
Yes I am Finnish and hate Tolkien for stealing our legends.

>>20271209
No he didn't, you're just lying at this point.

>>20271215
Oh okay so because he's a scholar he can't be an artist? Do you seriously think reading myth as a scholar is the same as creating myth?

>>20271220
Well he was deeply familiar with Tolkien because of his Wagnerite friend Lewis.

>>20271234
This is a ridiculous complaint and basically says Tolkien could have no influences. But Wagner was trying to create an authentic myth as well, except for Germans. So perhaps you may also ask why a foreigner would want to use Tolkien ('modern English shit') when trying to create a mythology for their country?

[Anonymous No.20271258]

>>20271116
The One ring is called a master ring in LotR because it controls Twenty other rings.
And Saurons ring is like a phylactery because Sauron is a lich an Old English creature, his previous title was necromancer (could also cone from Beowulf)

This is obvious to anyone that actually gives a damn about this stuff.

[Anonymous No.20271269]

>>20271258
Wow okay this contradicts nothing I said.

[Anonymous No.20271272]

>>20271244
You need to stop.
>i am Finnish
Thats all i needed to know typical Finnish lying piece of shit trying to appropriate Tolkien's work out of jealousy.
You "people" are mentally ill and dishonest like Gollum.
Its clear you are just here to smear Tolkien out of jealousy.
>hate Tolkien for stealing our legends.
You are severely mentally ill. Tolkien didn't steal anything from Finns he drew some minor inspiration and borrowed some language for Quenya.

I should hate YOU for trying to appropriate my culture you lying rodent.

[Anonymous No.20271277]

>>20271269
Kys finn fag.

[Anonymous No.20271281]

>>20271244
Let it be known that NO ONE should ever refer to finland ever in their work or finns will do this.
Try to we wuz it like the faggot no culture forrestnaggers they are.
I bet you think Herbert's Dune is also Finnish.

[Anonymous No.20271292]

>>20271244
The irony here is the Kalevala was created in the 19th century.
So is complete bullshit, just a made up collection fictional stories lifted from other sources, like Germanic myth. For a national romanticism revival.
Its horseshit that Tolkien "stole it" more that he was inspired to create his own work of fiction

[Anonymous No.20271294]

>>20271244
>Tolkien's work is mostly inspired by Anglo-saxon and Icelandic myth
>mentions he liked some Finn myth
>Finns: WE WUZ LOTR U STOLE IT

[Anonymous No.20271314]

>>20271272
>>20271277
>>20271281
>>20271292
>>20271294
Lol trolled.

[Anonymous No.20271337]

>finnish fag makes a fool out of himself and embarrasses his country
Maybe if you were creative you could write your own book.

[Anonymous No.20271342]

>>20271244
>we wuz elves n sheet

[Anonymous No.20271455]

Reminder, finnish are NOT white.

[Anonymous No.20271463]

>>20271292
>>20271294
>>20271337
We Finns are in a constant state of cultural insecurity so Tolkien's efforts are quite commonly appropriated to claim a modicum of Finnish cultural achievement
This of course creates more insecurity since an Englishman has used our myths far more skilfully than we ever have
Tolkien is a pretty bad writer, especially when compared to his predecessors, and his only addition to fantasy is also the most controversial one - the obsession with deep, large-scale worldbuilding, created languages, etc., which has hugely damaged the literary quality and reputation of the genre
His partisans are usually those who are not acquainted with older fantasy works, of you only read Eddison you would make nothing of old JRR

[Anonymous No.20271481]

The saga of the Finnish man is gonna get a screencap isn't it?

[Anonymous No.20271492]

>>20259071
inserting rape aliens into a ~twisted~ copypaste of first age arda mixed with the crusades is edgy and subversive, even more so than gurm's hollywood grimdark. hey i like the aspect emperor books as much as the next sffg autist but bakker's edgy late-modernist materialist nihilism gets quite tedious

tolkien however is eternal
he accessed something magical and no one has really ever been able to capture after him

[Anonymous No.20271498]

>>20271481
It would only memorialize the stupidity of Tolkienfags.

[Anonymous No.20271506]

>>20271463
but it isnt your myth. Its Anglo-saxon myth. Repeating this puts you in the same category as the Irish people that believe LotR is Irish.

[Anonymous No.20271517]

>>20271463
Do you Finns realise the use of Fin- in Tolkien's work isn't Finnish?
It's a Germanic name.

[Anonymous No.20271521]

>>20271506
It is mostly Anglo-Saxon myth yes (I'm a different anon), but the slightest Finnish influence is enough for Finns to claim it as their national achievement
The other guy is just acting out an ancient finnic cope strategy, pay him no mind

[Anonymous No.20271523]

>>20271521
>The other guy is just acting out an ancient finnic cope strategy, pay him no mind
kek this
seething is the highest form of flattery

[Anonymous No.20271528]

>>20271492
Surprised you read it since I dropped it after the author couldn't hide his /r/atheism beliefs, and his communistic ideals.

[Anonymous No.20271530]

>>20271517
We do not call ourselves "Finns" or anything relating to that so it of course has no relation, which goes for most of Tolkien

[Anonymous No.20271536]

>>20271530
You call yourselves Suomallinen* i lived there once

[Anonymous No.20271543]

>>20271521
>>20271523
>pay him no mind
>seething is the highest form of flattery
Bit late no?

[Anonymous No.20271555]

I keep reading Finfags say LoTR is ripped off Finnish myth. Where? I've seen no evidence of this.

[Anonymous No.20271574]

>Wagneranon makes reasonable argument
>gets insults in return

[Anonymous No.20271577]

>>20271574
>wagner argument
>reasonable
Two years before his death, Ohlmarks blamed Swedish Tolkien fans for a fire to his house, and wrote Tolkien och den svarta magin, "Tolkien and the Black Magic". In it, he concocted a conspiracy theory that claimed Tolkien, and The Tolkien Society, practised black magic and Nazi occultism.[8]

[Anonymous No.20271579]

>>20271577
Uhm, kino.

[Anonymous No.20271580]

I'm a bored hacker. If you want the password to someone's Snapchat account, like you think your partner is cheating on you, or curious about something else, I don't mind trying it out

Ask me on Snapchat at CDigby2

[Anonymous No.20271581]

>>20271577
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhlLvL0HQoc

[Anonymous No.20271582]

>>20271577
Not an argument.

[Anonymous No.20271729]

You know whats funny is Tolkien was never trying to redefine the genre. All he wanted to do was have fun writing his books. He himself was even surprised at the cult following he had amassed in America and even seemed skeptical of it. His greatest fear was people would look too deep into his works, and now we have people on both sides over analyzing why LOTR is good or bad

[Anonymous No.20271746]

>>20271729
I never said LOTR was bad, just that he was influenced by Wagner as a casual fact. It was his cultish followers who took problem with this fact.

[Anonymous No.20271762]

>>20259071
That's beautiful

[Anonymous No.20271806]

>>20271746
stop lying, you said that multiple times itt. is that really what you want finns to be known for?

[Anonymous No.20271895]

>>20271806
>stop lying, you said that multiple times itt.
Show me.

[Anonymous No.20272048]

>>20259052
Fantasy is fake and gay. He grounded it in folklore and myth so you actually learn interesting ancient cultures rather than some faggots gay self insert fantasy. Skyrim drew on the old norse myths with draugr rather than doing oblivions superficial omg zoooombbbies

[Anonymous No.20272089]

>all this talk about Wagner
>not a single mention of Lewis’ obsession
>only just now realizing I’m the sole anon on this board that has read Surprised by Joy
You really need to, for your health, sanity, and salvation

[Anonymous No.20272132]

>>20272089
There's one mention, and the implication for the knowers that Tolkien's study and attempted translation of Wagner was done with the Inklings.

Surprised by Joy has been on my to read for quite some time.

[Anonymous No.20272193]

>>20272132
Descriptions do it no justice and belabor the wrong point. Christianity is barely a set piece in the book, the actual journey is the /literal/ pursuit of Joy — Theism is merely a plot point by necessity.
Unexpectedly hilarious read, found myself cackling multiple times, and the penultimate chapter (“Checkmate”) had me screaming alone in my bedroom out of frustration with my arrogance (though entirely in good spirits and humor). He puts Alexander to serious work in two world-shattering pages, it’s a hell of a ride.

[Anonymous No.20272596]

>>20259052
Being singlehandedly responsible for a genre being shit and creating the best examples of it aren't mutually exclusive.
Example: pic related

[Anonymous No.20273457]

>>20271762
If you think that's beautiful, then you should read more.

[Anonymous No.20273604]

Wasn't good with Tolkien, and became worse after him.

>Cope fantasytard

[Anonymous No.20273610]

>>20273457
Based

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.20273619]

>>20271762
How do you feel about this? It’s from dunsany.

And when Alveric could no longer come near the fire, and the witch was some yards from it shouting her runes, the magical flames burned all the ashes away and that portent that flared on the hill as suddenly ceased, leaving only a circle that sullenly glowed on the ground, like the evil pool that glares where thermite has burst. And flat in the glow, all liquid still, lay the sword.
The witch approached it and pared its edges with a sword that she drew from her thigh. Then she sat down beside it on the earth and sang to it while it cooled. Not like the runes that enraged the flames was the song she sang to the sword: she whose curses had blasted the fire till it shrivelled big logs of oak crooned now a melody like a wind in summer blowing from wild wood gardens that no man tended, down valleys loved once by children, now lost to them but for dreams, a song of such memories as lurk and hide along the edges of oblivion, now flashing from beautiful years of glimpse of some golden moment, now passing swiftly out of remembrance again, to go back to the shades of oblivion, and leaving on the mind those faintest traces of little shining feet which when dimly perceived by us are called regrets. She sang of old Summer noons in the time of harebells: she sang on that high dark heath a song that seemed so full of mornings and evenings preserved with all their dews by her magical craft from days that had else been lost, that Alveric wondered of each small wandering wing, that her fire had lured from the dusk, if this were the ghost of some day lost to man, called up by the force of her song from times that were fairer. And all the while the unearthly metal grew harder. The white liquid stiffened and turned red. The glow of the red dwindled. And as it cooled it narrowed: little particles came together, little crevices closed: and as they closed they seized the air about them, and with the air they caught the witch's rune, and gripped it and held it forever. And so it was it became a magical sword. And little magic there is in English woods, from the time of anemones to the falling of leaves, that was not in the sword. And little magic there is in southern downs, that only sheep roam over and quiet shepherds, that the sword had not too. And there was scent of thyme in it and sight of lilac, and the chorus of birds that sings before dawn in April, and the deep proud splendour of rhododendrons, and the litheness and laughter of streams, and miles and miles of may. And by the time the sword was black it was all enchanted with magic.

[Anonymous No.20273620]

>>20259197
This is pretty much just Miyazaki's "anime was a mistake". The founders of the genre come in with diverse experiences and interests, their successors just grow up on the genre and lack outside influences.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.20273637]

>>20273620
This is pretty much the case yeah.

[Anonymous No.20273647]

>>20273619
dunsany can’t hold a candle to Bakker.

[Anonymous No.20273655]

>>20273647
Bakker is a shit writer, fuck off back to r*ddit.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.20273849]

>>20273647
Enter..
The Bard of betas,
The Timon of toddlers,
The idol of idiots,
The Ruler of Reddit,
The paragon of plebe,
A father of contemporary fantasy,
A father of contemporary faggotry,
The saptrap of simps,
The duke of dim-wits,
The tenth-son of Tolkien,
Enter…Bakker!

[Anonymous No.20273880]

>>20259052
He created "fantasy" as an organized thing as opposed to just whimsical nonsense fairytale shit.

That said I like whimsical, Jules Verne/Georges Melies-esque fantasies over hard plot-based shit that attempts to ape Tolkien and fails.

[Anonymous No.20274093]

>>20273647
>dunsany can’t hold a candle to Bakker.
Imagine actually believing this. Jesus christ, you fags are beyond saving.