What the fuck is going on

[Anonymous No.20060779]

Severian and some girl are in a glass botanical library funhouse building looking for a flower because our hero was challenged to a duel (why? idk). They enter a door that disappears and find themselves in a jungle. What is going on? Why are time and space acting strangely? Who and what is the Autarch? What exactly is the house absolute? Should I just carry on and all will be revealed or am I retarded?

[Anonymous No.20060790]

>>20060779
The real question is how this guy is able to bang every woman he meets 5 minutes after meeting them.

[Anonymous No.20060804]

>>20060779
almost everything will be explained. just keep reading
>>20060790
rape

[Anonymous No.20060840]

>>20060779
>Should I just carry on and all will be revealed
Yeah, more or less. Some things get spelled out in a really obvious manner, like you're a child, just maybe not until later books. (Maybe some things not at all, I only just finished 2/4 so I can't say definitively.)
Most things you can clue in to earlier, others I don't believe are meant to add up at the earliest opportunity - like why Severian was challenged to a duel. You have to be willing to trust the author and deal with the tension of not understanding everything until later.

[Anonymous No.20060851]

>>20060779
>Should I just carry on and all will be revealed
Yes, and if you still don't get it by the end then the urth of the new sun spells everything out on a 5th grade level.

[Anonymous No.20060865]

>>20060790
That's overstating it. Halfway through the series he's only had sex with 4 women, and one was a prostitute, one was rape, and one is someone he accidentally resurrected and so she was attached to him by necessity because she had no one else in the world.

[Anonymous No.20060903]

Severian really needs to get a sling for his sword. He has already lost the thing twice and im like 100 pages in.

[Anonymous No.20061055]

>>20060804
>>20060865
So sick of this contemporary reading of the so called "rape scene." there is far more evidence in the text to suggest it was consensual, yet people now all agree for some reason (retarded modern politics) that it was rape. Reread the chapter again. She is hinting at and suggesting multiple times to fuck severian. She's a slut, if anything, she was asking for it.
And one more thing. Why does no one, when discussing that part, add that not only is it in the far distant future but it's in some neo feudalistic time where the interactions in regards to sex, and especially violence, as we so often read depicted, have regressed or changed so much that what we might think is rape in 2022 is relatively a harmless act to them.

[Anonymous No.20061080]

>>20061055
It's not a contemporary read, the rape is brought up in Urth even if Severian doesn't believe it

[Anonymous No.20061094]

>>20061080
I love that part when Severian dismisses it. Truly one of the greatest protagonist's

[Anonymous No.20061118]

I wish large cloaks were in fashion.

[Anonymous No.20061177]

>>20061055
If you don't think rape is bad, then why are you mad if I refer to it as rape? I didn't make any value judgement, so it doesn't make sense for you to sperg out.
Discussion of the chapter:
You could read it that way. I don't see her giving him signals, she wanted him to escort her around the gardens to hopefully be noticed by a powerful member of the House Absolute. She speaks provocatively, but she's provocative to everyone all the time. Or in other words, she's asking for it all the time. That is her personality under the glamour. Dr. Talos has to beat her to keep her from constantly garnering the attention of every nearby man. And so, even if she was asking for it, and directly provoking Severian, that's not the same thing as consent the way you mean it. At most it's a justification for rape.
The stranger thing about the scene is how she's asleep for no particular reason, and how it's never discussed afterwards. We don't get to see her and Severian disembark from their boat. I assume you think she was pretending to be asleep. The strongest argument for this is how Jolenta could have had no doubt upon waking that she'd been penetrated repeatedly, and assuming that she had not wanted that, she would have issued some kind of complaint afterwards either to Severian in private or to the group afterwards, but by all accounts everyone carried on as usual. Dorcas and Talos are said to have reacted upon their return to the group, but people tend to assume such things about a man and a woman going off alone. Evidently Jolenta did not gloat about it over Dorcas, else their relationship would have been a lot more strained.
So I think the questions you have to answer are, number one, could Jolenta have had the self-control not to provoke jealousy in Dorcas, had she been conscious for the entirety of Severian's act? And it was Severian's act, because even if Jolenta was pretending to be asleep, this depicts her as so haughty as to be totally passive during sex. We don't have any description of her taking an active role in the least way, even in Severian's recollection nearer the end of Claw. The second question is whether Jolenta was asleep. It was established that she was averse to physical exertion and slept constantly during the day, so it wouldn't be strange for her to nap in the boat. The manner of her sleep was unusually deep and Severian remarks on this. Now, he could be lying, but I think that if she had been an active participant in the sex or at least overtly conscious he would have no reason for omitting this in his narrative when he was willing to relate his apparent predation upon her. If her sleep was effected by magical means as Severian alluded to, that is, a drug, I'm not aware of the existence of such in the story to that point and can't see in Severian's description the moment when it would have been administered.

[Anonymous No.20061221]

>>20061177
So, logically it would make sense that Jolenta was pretending to be asleep, despite the lassitude of her constitution, because people don't sleep through numerous acts of coitus unless they're drugged. On the other hand, we have no other account of Jolenta having sex. Actually, given that she was constantly in the presence of Talos and Baldanders, we don't very well know whether she had sex with anyone other than Severian since the time she was glamoured. We can't say with certainty that this extreme 'dead fish' manner was typical for her, or why she would take this tack with Severian in particular if it was not. We can only speculate on her sexual history.
I typed a fair bit and lost the structure of my essay. Ultimately, I can't reach a conclusion whether she consented or not, but the question turns on whether she was pretending to be asleep. The issue of her demeanour afterwards is secondary, and we don't have any facts about that either.

[Anonymous No.20061611]

>>20061177
>>20061221
Nice. Good dive into it.
>Ultimately, I can't reach a conclusion whether she consented or not
This was my point with my original post, though I was being hyperbolic. I assume people do not see the nuance in that part of the book, being as they jump to the conclusion of calling it rape so often.

[Anonymous No.20062084]

i like the implications throughout the series that thecla was an awful person but Severian doesn't want to admit it. like that time where he has the visions of her whipping the people in that one jail after they had merged. i forgot the exact details though, if i had the book on hand with me i'd look up the passage.

[Anonymous No.20062223]

>>20060779
The evil incel 5'6" autarch sent the guy to assassinate him, Severian has to meet up with the Vodalarii to bring progress to the Commonwealth. Who cares if some dead bodies get eaten along the way!

[Anonymous No.20062347]

>>20060865
>>20060804
Severian raped no-one, as I recall. Jolenta was asking for it, indeed you could say that she seduced him.

[Anonymous No.20062525]

>>20060779
Just wait for the naked two headed guy who take him on a train trip inside a mountain and then just keeps touching his own sick.

[Anonymous No.20062608]

Just finished book one. Still not sure why everyone is so mysterious all the time. Feels like a dream.

[Anonymous No.20062712]

>>20062608
We're on a same boat then. I just started the second book and it just skips the story where the ending of the first book was taking it. I guess it comes up at some point but it just continues more mysteriously.

[Anonymous No.20062974]

>

[Anonymous No.20063038]

>>20062608
>>20062712
I think a second reading is mandatory to understand everything that's going on. It almost reads like a totally different book the second time around, and that's when you realize how cleverly written it is. Or as >>20060851 says, you can also read Urth, which offers a satisfying conclusion and explains a lot.

[Anonymous No.20063109]

>>20061611
>being as they jump to the conclusion of calling it rape so often
People here like to point out how Holden raped his sister, Phoebe, and have done so to the extent it has become a meme, so perhaps rape accusations are just a part of /lit/. Besides, it's not like people are offended by it.

[Anonymous No.20063116]

>>20063038
>you can also read Urth
Different anon here, but to add to that, Urth is not just an 'explanation' of what happens in BotNS, but expands it.
It does explain several parts, but the clues to many of those were unnecessarily cryptic. However, Urth contains mysteries of its own. Still, the style is pretty different, so I'd recommend reading else after BotNS before continueing to Urth.

[Anonymous No.20063696]

>>20063038
Tell me why, exactly, a reread is necessary? I finished the book yesterday and it took me 2 days to read. I remember everything.

[Anonymous No.20063846]

>>20063696
Would you say you're cursed by a perfect recollection?

[Anonymous No.20063898]

>>20063696
Then you should examine your memory of reading it with the context of remembering having read it.

[Anonymous No.20063904]

>>20061611
>>20062347
The story as told by Severian describes it as rape. You have to speculate and read into it a lot more to reach an alternative conclusion.
We don't have a single description of Jolenta actively participating in the sex. This is the closest thing,
>I kissed her, and her large eyes, hardly open
Severian describes his desire for her as compared to the other women he's known, and says,
>I wished(...)to shame and punish her, to destroy her self-possession, to fill her eyes with tears and tear her hair
>She boasted of making tribadists [lesbians] of women. She came near to making an algophilist [sadomasochist] of me.
There's more evidence of rape than there is of consent, so I don't get why you'd get mad at people for reading it that way. That's how it's presented. It's very easy to reach that conclusion. For it to be consensual, you'd have to explain why she pretended to be asleep, but in fact you can't even prove that she was because there's so little evidence for it. At most it is a possible interpretation.
It's certainly a bizarre anecdote on the part of Severian.

[Anonymous No.20063922]

>>20063904
>get mad
I shouldn't say mad, I just mean picking an argument over it.
Cause even though he raped her, the point is everyone wanted to rape Jolenta, she was walking rape bait.

[Anonymous No.20064009]

>>20063696
>the book
Good. Read the other 3 now

[Anonymous No.20064029]

>>20063846
ha!
>>20064009
Yes, I have every intention too. Just to see that new hot actress chick get raped if nothing else.

[Anonymous No.20064058]

>>20063898
Not necessary. I read it once and understand everything that is to be understood. It's really a simple adventure, they didn't even leave the city. A few small skirmishes, some walking, eating, a nice execution. I didn't miss anything important.

[Anonymous No.20064103]

>>20063904
>The story as told by Severian describes it as rape
Nope

Also I've been edging for the past 12 hours.
>>20061177
>no doubt upon waking that she'd been penetrated repeatedly
>>20061055
All these posts are so hot. I love watching sleep porn/time stop jap porn, and this book not only encapsulates my love of the dying earth genre but also my love of beautiful women getting used like the sleeping beauties they are. I think it goes back to my high school days. I had this girlfriend who would pretend to be asleep. It was amazing and I think of it daily. Thank you Gene Wolfe for rekindling this lust, he must have had a similar experience as a young man when he stormed the gook beaches and ravished their women.
If anyone knows of books or movies that add to this fetish I'd love to know.
>I wished to shame and punish her, to destroy her self-possession, to fill her eyes with tears and tear her hair
I think I'm ready to cum. This is for you Jolenta.

[Anonymous No.20064115]

>>20064103
>Also I've been edging for the past 12 hours.
careful man, I literally broke my dick doing that while edging to an Avatar the Last Airbender porn game. It has been over a year and my dick is still fucked up.

[Anonymous No.20064264]

>>20063696
>>20064029
There's a lot of stuff you only notice after finishing the fourth part (or at least the third, I think).

Also, Book of the Short Sun is the best thing Wolfe has written.

[Anonymous No.20064322]

>>20061055
It's from the same faggots that believe at the end of Blood Meridian The Boy became a pedo rapist or the Judge raped him. They're obsessed with rape.

[Anonymous No.20064330]

>>20064264
>Also, Book of the Short Sun is the best thing Wolfe has written.
I want to fuck a lizard vine vampire in a dream while it pretends to be a real girl.

[Anonymous No.20064441]

>>20064330
Don't we all?

[Anonymous No.20065548]

>>20060779
Should I start reading this book? I like Dying Earth/far future.

[Anonymous No.20065632]

>>20065548
Yeah I just read the first book and it was cool. Its so far in the future the sun is dying.

[Anonymous No.20065659]

>>20065632
Now ask yourself: why is the sun dying?
If your answer is "because it's at the end of its natural lifespan," then you'd be wrong.

[Anonymous No.20065689]

>>20065659
that is what I assumed... I have only read book1. Perhaps they have sucked all the juice out instead.

[Anonymous No.20065698]

>>20065659
>>20065689
One thing that was mentioned in book 1 is that the Volcanos have dried up, a quick search tells me that is estimated to be 1.45 billion years from now. So unless that was also not due to natural lifespan I will use 1.45 billion as my benchmark

[Anonymous No.20065752]

>>20065659
Cause there's a worm eating it from the inside I think. That's what's been alluded to.

[Anonymous No.20065794]

>>20064103
If fucking a sleeping woman turns you on so much then why are you so adamant that's not what happened? It's like you're defending Severian's character against something you would be happy he did.

[Anonymous No.20066962]