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19976761 No.19976761 [Reply] [Original]

I'm reading picrelated, and on numerous times it puts the idea of "knowledge" and "intelligence" down, and I think I understand the reason behind it since it can lead the individual to stray from the "way".
But isn't both intelligence and knowledge considered a must to at least reach or grasp the concept of "Truth" to a certain degree?
>he who truely knows doesn't speak
Does that mean that I shouldn't share my knowledge with other people taking in consideration that I 'tamed' my ego?
Thanks!

>> No.19976773

>>19976761
The paradox of Taoism

>> No.19976822

>>19976773
I've watched some video lectures but all (if I can recall) they did was to move in circle and break down "The Tao that can be named isn't the Tao", but didn't tackle the problem with Knowledge and Intelligence.

>> No.19976930

The cope that cannot be coped is not a cope worth copeing for

>> No.19976959
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19976959

>>19976761
If you're seduced by these ideas, just read this and don't look back.

>> No.19977026

>>19976761
I heard this translation is slightly whitewashed in the Christian/Western perspective. Can anyone speak to whether that's correct?

>> No.19977040

>>19976761
yeah you should just shut the fuck up and be nice

>> No.19977063

>>19977026
every translation is mostly projection
you have to compare them all to get closer to the universal meaning of the original text
or just put your own projection on it like >>19976959
this is where the true beauty of the thing resides imho

>> No.19977068

Why are you reading an obscure translation?

>> No.19977082

>>19976761
>I'm reading picrelated, and on numerous times it puts the idea of "knowledge" and "intelligence" down

That was done in the context of scorning superlfuity, as opposed to optifluity.

>> No.19977158

>>19977082
how often do you invent words?

>> No.19977170

>>19976761
There's some context involved. Try reading the introduction to this version:
"Title: Tao Te Ching
Edition: Barnes & Noble Classics
Author(s): Lao Tzu; A. Charles Muller; Yi-Ping Ong
Publisher: Barnes Noble Classics
Year: 2005
Pages: 179
ISBN: 1593082568; 9781593082567
Language: English"

Yeah, it's a shit publisher and format, but the introduction is kinda ridiculously out-of-place for the thought and care which went into it. Here's a sorta-appropriate excerpt:

>"...the author of the Tao Te Ching also uses paradox as a device to lead the reader directly to a realization of the Tao. Consider a passage such as the following, which ostensibly describes the Tao: “Thus, it is called the formless form, / The image of no-thing. / This is called the most obscure” (chapter 14). Such a description confounds the attempt of the mind to grasp it, either by abstract thought or concrete visualization. When one tries to call to mind the “image of no-thing” or conceive of a form without form, one is struck by the impossibility of it. Paradox stuns the mind of the reader and stymies any attempt to analyze or comprehend the Tao by conventional thought. When the processes of the intellect have effectively been paralyzed, one’s intuition becomes free to enter into the Tao without the frustration of trying to grasp it conceptually.

>Although there are many passages thick with the language of paradox, much of the imagery in the Tao Te Ching is also direct and simple. “To speak little,” Lao Tzu tells us, “is natural” (chapter 23). Thus he often seeks to explain the principles of the Tao by using straightforward examples, without making reference to complex, abstract ideas. Taoism is not, after all, an esoteric school of thought; it is intended to address the very heart of ordinary concerns, such as the protection of life and peace of mind. Its truths are evident in the most basic and natural phenomena: the movement of water, the growth of plants, the plain facts of human nature, and other obvious aspects of the world. Although these matters may appear mundane, the wisdom of the Tao is revealed when one examines them closely."

>> No.19977188

>>19977158

As often as proper/optimal functionality demands.

>> No.19977290

>>19976761
Daoism doesn't exist, it's a meme.

>> No.19977297

>>19977290
Yes. It says so itself.

>> No.19977435

>>19977290
By not existing, it exists

>> No.19977439

>>19977170
Thanks, will give it a read!

>> No.19977446

>>19977290
And upon this, anon acheived the Dao.

>> No.19977791

>>19976761
Bro, read Victor Mair's translation.

>> No.19977880

Best English translation? Thinking of getting Red Pines.

>> No.19977905

>>19977880
I like Lau personally. Definitely shop around as there are some stilted awkward translations out there

>> No.19977951

>>19976761
I think the first lines clarify it a bit:
>The way that can be spoken of is not the constant way
>The name that can be named is not the constant name
Basically I read this as saying that human knowledge cannot fully grasp the fundamental nature of reality and attempting to use human reason too much can lead you down the wrong path. I’m not very well versed in Daoism though, only read a bit of Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu.

>> No.19977965

>>19977951
To add to this and better answer the OP: intelligence and knowledge is necessary to some degree but don’t rely on it completely

>> No.19978146

Just a bunch of assertions without any evidence to back them back up. At best it's a fable. At worse it's bullshit.

>> No.19979371

>>19978146
OP here, I think it makes sense from a philosophical stand point and can somehow relate it to Stoicism and some Greek teachings (I guess). Can't call bs since I'm probably not "conscious" enough.

>> No.19979372

>>19977880
there is no 'best' anything
just compare all available translations
you'll find plenty in libraries and online

>> No.19979373

>>19977951
>constant
dropped

>> No.19979377

>>19978146
when the sage points at the moon, the fool looks at the finger

>> No.19979774

>>19978146
They're not assertions. They're recommendations. You don't understand the Tao if you think the master was attempting to force people.

>> No.19979788

>>19976761
It means that seeing is beyond words. It doesn't mean that you don't literally speak or that there is no knowledge. If that were the case the Tao Te Ching would probably not exist as a historical document.

>> No.19980307

>>19976761
knowledge of the way how things really are can only be achieve through the cessation of thoughts and action.

>> No.19980342

>>19976761

There is broadly knowledge of 2 categories : immediate supra-cognitive and learned / conceptual / memorized.

True knowledge is of the first category and cannot be obtained through recitation, reading or any such methods, it is unlocked by way of experience or gnosis and cannot be lost hence.

This knowledge transcends human language and is also impossible to impart unto others hence there's no purpose in attempting to impart it through human speech.

Cognitive knowledge is symbolic in its value and is only valuable to the extent it is effective in preparing the reader to receive the truly valuable kind.

>> No.19980531

>>19976761
The truth does not rely on knowledge or a concept of the truth. You've known it since you were born, but it obstructed by your non-stop talking to yourself. Stop talking, stop thinking, and the truth will be there, waiting.

>> No.19981054

>>19979788
>>19980307
>>19980342
>>19980531
Thanks bros for your post, I will reflect on them as I read the book. Good day!

>> No.19981524

>>19978146
Do you need a scientist to put a finger in your ass to know it will smell like shit afterward?
"Tao" is just the way things are

>> No.19981609

John Minford's version is also good

>> No.19981894
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19981894

Does anybody know If there's a small / pocket version of the Feng translation? Been looking for one with no avail.

>> No.19981905

>>19978146
What being raised in a culture of Abrahamism does to a motherfucker

The state

>> No.19981998

>>19977026
All I can say is: I studied Taoism with a well renowned scholar of eastern philosophy and he told me that Penguin's translation by D.C Lau is a fine edition. I highly recommend it. OP, read many translations, it will broaden your understanding of the text. Also read the Nei-Ye for a better grasp of how to manifest immediate intimacy with the Tao.

>> No.19982020

>>19981054
Those are all good posts that get it. This intersection between Buddhism/Daoism/Stoicism I'm seeing is making me glad to see people understand.

>> No.19982229

The Tao is, what i can describe is just a tao, like the tao of Sifu; governing education and family ritual, the tao of particular schools of tea, the tao of soldiers and war, the tao of the engineer; his research and making or the tao of the priest teaching the sacrifice and the ritual of his mere God.
Tao is beyond Nirvana, Buddha might have achieved Tao, but buddhists only achieve their tao.

>> No.19982249

>>19981894
I don't think so. He co-wrote it with his wife Jane English, who did all the photography. The images are sort of integral to Feng's rendition

>> No.19982536

>>19982249
Unfortunate. Yeah it feels like most the pocket sized ones I find are the Mitchell version which isn't much of a true translation

>> No.19982546

>>19976761
Yes it does
thats why I cringe whenever I see people proselytising Taoism

>> No.19983711

>>19976761
>But isn't both intelligence and knowledge considered a must to at least reach or grasp the concept of "Truth" to a certain degree
No.
>>he who truely knows doesn't speak
>Does that mean that I shouldn't share my knowledge with other people taking in consideration that I 'tamed' my ego?
Read the Zhuang Zhi. It's mostly short stories that will really put you into the taoist mindset. Most important book of my life.

>> No.19983715

>>19983711
>Most important book of my life.
How so? It didn't do much for me.

>> No.19983857

tao is a cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything

>> No.19983961

There is one version superior to all others. Read the signs.

16
Standing upon the mountain steep
How low the valley seems!
And yet, because it lies so deep,
It gathers all the streams.

17
The valley-spirit cannot fall
Because it lies so low;
And yet it is the base of all,
And to it all things flow.

>> No.19983990

>>19983715
It allowed me to obviate the obvious.

>> No.19984971

>>19976761
has to do with the difference between Intuitions and Concepts.
Language is a function of Concepts, not of Intuitions, but we can only communicate to others via Concepts/Language.
But Concepts are limited, they can't ever fully reveal the entire truth, only (at best) fractional truths.
Intuition is more in accord with the way, but it can't be communicated, only experienced. Trying to talk about it to a noob is like pointing at the moon, and having the noob consistently look at your finger. "Your finger" is like Language, "the Moon" is the Intuitional Way.

>> No.19986045

>>19984971
Thank you, I like your analogy of The moon, the sage and the fool.

>> No.19986364

>>19986045
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH1GFaw09hk

>> No.19986460

>>19979373
What's wrong with translating 常 as 'constant'?