/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19611303]

Why is direct democracy bad again? This guy is making some pretty good points.

[Anonymous No.19611315]

>>19611303
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhpI23fynEE

[Anonymous No.19611398]

Democracy is bad because voters are stupid.

[Anonymous No.19611418]

>>19611303
Over 52% of adult Americans cannot read over a 6th grade level.

[Anonymous No.19611425]

>>19611303
Representative democracy is just feudalism with extra steps. Presidents are just as untouchable as kings except their chosen by the masses instead of a divine right or whatever.

[Anonymous No.19611429]

>>19611425
they're* ffs my bad

[Anonymous No.19611440]

>>19611425
What would you suggest as an alternative, anon?

[Anonymous No.19611454]

>>19611440

[Anonymous No.19611460]

>>19611440
Direct democracy.

[Anonymous No.19611464]

>>19611440
Me as the King of the world

[Anonymous No.19611478]

>>19611303
I'm sure whatever implementation of direct democracy we would see in today's world would be massively susceptible to manipulation to the point where you might as well get rid of the facade and just have the open rule of jewish oligarchs.

[Anonymous No.19611485]

>>19611478
Media will fuck things up like always unless it's put on a leash. I'm not sure why there aren't anti-media laws, not even in developed countries.

[Anonymous No.19611493]

Plato does not believe that democracy is the best form of government. According to him, equality brings power-seeking individuals who are motivated by personal gain. They can be highly corruptible, and this can eventually lead to tyranny. This form of government is unstable, and it lacks leaders with proper skills and morals. Without able and virtuous leaders, who come and go, it is not a good form of government. He sees democracy as dangerous as it motivates the poor against the wealthy rulers. It prioritizes wealth and property accumulation

[Anonymous No.19611532]

>>19611493
The foundation of the west, everyone.

[Anonymous No.19611544]

>>19611532
The Greco-Romans are pre-Western and their own civilization. Read Spengler.

[Anonymous No.19611604]

>>19611544
Ah, the goal post moves.

[Anonymous No.19611613]

>>19611398
/thread

[Anonymous No.19611658]

I'm busy so i'll make it brief. Basically, the more inclusive the franchise, the more difficult it becomes to reach consensus on anything, the more costly it is to implement any decision. Consider it this way: Everyone has their own diverse interests, desires, and beliefs, which are often at odds with others in the same community. When they are faced with a decision, they want to represent their own interests. If this is true, then every decision making process, when considering the question of voter inclusion, faces two forms of cost: the cost of reaching a decision, and the cost of those excluded from the decision. These are decision-making costs and external costs. On either extremes of the axis of voter inclusion we get
>Direct, consensus democracy
In which there are no external costs because every decision must be agreed upon by every voter, but the decision making costs are massive owing to the need to compromise to every individual's interests.
>Authoritarian dictatorship
I which there are no decision making costs because one person decides, but the external costs are massive because everyone else has been excluded from the decision making processes and as such their interests are not represented.
If we understand this relationship, we can infer that the larger the franchise, the more heterogeneous the interests, the higher the decision making costs become for any decision, even if it isn't full consensus. So (one of) the problems with direct democracy is that on any appreciable scale it becomes ridiculous as the decision making costs begin to blow out beyond any benefit the collective decision making may create. If you want a good example of decision making costs look up how much your last national elections cost: i would guess that it'd be in the hundreds of millions. Or if we consider the Brexit referendum, that cost 130 million pounds to conduct. And that was for a single decision. Governments make multiple decisions everyday, so you can see the problem already. Thus, even if we assume nothing about the competency of the majority of people to make good decisions, there are reasons to want to avoid direct democracy.
Maybe if you live in a kibbutz with 300 people or a Swiss village with a thousand, it works well. But not in any modern state where populations are often in the tens of millions.

[Anonymous No.19611664]

>>19611315
>>19611398
This. Plus remember when Athens voted to genocide an island, sent a warship, then went to bed, woke up the next day, felt bad about it, and then voted to send another faster ship to tell the murder ship to to not genocide that very same island?

[Anonymous No.19611671]

Why would anyone want to directly participate in and make decisions about every single thing?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.19611769]

>>19611315
>>19611398
>>19611613
>>19611664
The point is moot. Voters become increasingly more educated. Only absolute loons need be excluded or humored
>>19611418
A further point. This is the result of “western democracy” a sham form that seeks only to breed stupid worker drones.
>>19611478
The exact opposite is the case. Representative democracy is extremely susceptible to manipulation and corruption. DD is most resilient. This is why the oligarchic founding fathers went with a republic.
>>19611493
Plato’s mentor was sentenced to Hemlock by a fraction of the population.
>>19611658
So little trouble at all. Each section can set their own thresholds, for easy procedural votes the threshold can be rather high at 90%, harder choices would necessarily take some time in debates and adjustments to reach lower thresholds of 75% or so.

>>19611671
To be free we must take responsibility for ourselves.
Look at these people saying “you can’t, you’re stupid”. Are you also lazy? This is fine too. A given community needs only about four to five thousand. You’re invited, but nothing is mandatory about it.

[Anonymous No.19611802]

>>19611769
>Voters become increasingly more educated.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.19611818]

>>19611802
If you take part in the meets, are you going to fall asleep? Are you going to make a nuisance of yourself? Just to “prove” you can’t learn to take responsibility or to understand the simple procedures?
Like a classroom, you’ll hear an earful from the other speakers, your friends and neighbors, and you’ll choose this or that without a word, or raise your hand to ask a question. Learning as you go.
Or, again, don’t attend.

[Anonymous No.19611870]

>>19611818
you have the mind of a child

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.19611917]

>>19611870
Your argument has crumbled apart due this child minded woman. Admit it.

[Anonymous No.19611931]

>>19611303
Death by demographics, aka nonwhites illegally immigrating or being brought in by (((liberals))), is why direct democracy is a bad idea.

[Anonymous No.19611932]

>>19611769
>Nietschean
>atheist
>anarchist
>believes in democracy
What other contradictory position will Butters adopt next?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.19611951]

>>19611932
I don’t see any.

>>19611931
This is, again, more of a case against the sham democracy we’ve got going on now.

[Anonymous No.19612170]

>>19611464
Based

[Anonymous No.19612579]

>>19611303
Is Graeber legit or is he a meme author? I thought he was self-help tier.

[Anonymous No.19612669]

>>19611769
>Plato’s mentor was sentenced to Hemlock by a fraction of the population.
Are you seriously implying that if Athenian democracy had included women, slaves and foreigners it would have changed their verdict on Socrates in any way? Lmao how stupid can you be

[Anonymous No.19612766]

>>19611769
>>>19611315
>>>19611398
>>>19611613
>>>19611664
>The point is moot. Voters become increasingly more educated. Only absolute loons need be excluded or humored
>>>19611418
>A further point. This is the result of “western democracy” a sham form that seeks only to breed stupid worker drones.
>>>19611478
>The exact opposite is the case. Representative democracy is extremely susceptible to manipulation and corruption. DD is most resilient. This is why the oligarchic founding fathers went with a republic.
>>>19611493
>Plato’s mentor was sentenced to Hemlock by a fraction of the population.
>>>19611658
>So little trouble at all. Each section can set their own thresholds, for easy procedural votes the threshold can be rather high at 90%, harder choices would necessarily take some time in debates and adjustments to reach lower thresholds of 75% or so.
>>>19611671
>To be free we must take responsibility for ourselves.
>Look at these people saying “you can’t, you’re stupid”. Are you also lazy? This is fine too. A given community needs only about four to five thousand. You’re invited, but nothing is mandatory about it.

[Anonymous No.19612878]

>>19611818
You've no idea how complicated it is to legislate in the modern world.
It's nowhere near the simple questions normal athenians could discuss. How do you solve the issue of regulatory framework for economic activities? budgetary issues? governmental purchases and contracting? Try and read the whole US budget (or your own country) as Congress passed. See if you can.
you'll leave it to a small minority of citizens who are absolutely interested in the issue going a certain way and the rest won't understand shit and they'll only participate on the annual polemic discussions where they can chimp out.
And people might even learn how to behave in the agora, but that's hardly the relevant issue at hand. there's no reason to think the wouldn't remain the fucking idiots they are today.

[Anonymous No.19612881]

>>19612579
trash. take his books as essays, not as sources of information, as he's notorious for making shit up and not caring about sources

[Anonymous No.19612947]

>>19611303
1. Ignoring the issue of whether you actually can make objectively correct policy decision or is it always a trade and there are always perfectly good reasons to support or oppose each and every idea, The Myth of Rational Voter provides a good summary on empirical evidence for systematic bias among voters. This means that "voters b stupid" isn't solved through the miracle of aggregation, which is why many modern democracy supporters(especially poli science faculty typed) are against populism.
2. Democracy is extremely easily manipulated, the more direct it is, the more important having media moguls on your side will be for political success, and somehow I don't think the Union of Democratic Polities under Lord Protector Zuckenberg is something any of the people proposing direct democracy wants, and yet it will be the people who are the masters of manipulation or control the means of it that will control the society.
3. Many democratic theorists believe that once the people will choose to decide for themselves, we will live in world of peace and freedom, but nothing can be further from the truth than this, it's a result of very idiotic supposition, where instead of looking at how humans actually acted throughout history we're giving them a priori motives. During the reforms of Peter the Great, no protests were made over wars the monarch fought, however once he demanded Russians to shave he had to deal with uprising and common unrest, French Revolutionaries did all the things they did without bigger obstacles from the people, but an attempt to change the calendar almost caused revolution within revolution. Calendars and beards people care about, wars, executions, unjust laws, destruction of freedom - they don't. Humans are by nature warmongering, violent, xenophobic religious fanatics and had the issue of manipulation been solved that would be the direction a democratic state would take.

[Anonymous No.19612967]

>>19611769
>The point is moot. Voters become increasingly more educated. Only absolute loons need be excluded or humored
Voters can never be educated to the point where they will make the correct decisions. I would say even most politicians aren't educated enough to truly understand how each policy will effect the country.