/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19476819]

how do you dismantle the argument that determinism frees you from any responsibility?

[Anonymous No.19476820]

>>19476819
Als them how they are connected first

[Anonymous No.19476823]

>>19476819
Determinism isn't real.

[Anonymous No.19476824]

>>19476819
You don't. It absolves it completely.

[Anonymous No.19476825]

>>19476819
Such questions gives me panic attacks late at night when I can't sleep

[Anonymous No.19476828]

Because deterministic causes make you feel responsibility.

[Anonymous No.19476832]

>>19476820
Addendum.
>entity works along a predetermined path
>said path is malicious
>therefore entity is responsible for acting on a malicious path
Or there’s an assumption that said entity still has free will but because of determinism is locked into doing malicious things against his will. The latter is obviously a non sequitur. Responsibility and determinism aren't exclusive…

[Anonymous No.19476846]

>>19476819
Responsibility is irrelevant to determinism

[Anonymous No.19476854]

>>19476819
Could free will be a part of what has been predetermined?

[Anonymous No.19477036]

Feeling responsible and others holding you responsible is also predetermined in that case so it's a pointless ideology

[Anonymous No.19477039]

>>19476819
Determinism and fatalism is not the same.

[Anonymous No.19477049]

>>19476819
Kant already did it with his ethics.

[Anonymous No.19477177]

>>19476819
It doesn't.

It is your responsibility to find the path of least resistance to the future, seeing as free will is an illusion.

"The more things change, the more things stay the same" -Benjamin Graham, Security Analysis

And in Zen Buddhism, there is this concept that when you can achieve enlightenment, you will attain freedom from choices, and just do what is just right.

In that sense, I see "free will" as just more flailing that undoes itself or working against the flow of the rapids of life/society/samsara.

Just go with the herd rather than against it and you'll surf on top of the will of others like a wave, get what you want, and even prosper. I'm a fellow autist advising the Normo Pill; just become a normie no matter how disgusted or much you disagree and want to be a different sigma male.

But to get back to the OP, you are still responsible for any waves you cause in your timeline on a micro/immediate scale within the span of a few human lifetimes. If you fight the flow and cause more undue suffering, that's entirely on you. But if you can find the "determined path" and the efficient way towards that future and reduce the suffering of those around you, that is the way to live.

Determinism is like driving on a mega highway. You can still fuck up individually.

[Anonymous No.19477193]

>>19476819
This argument is devoid of value. If determinism relieves you of responsibility, so it relieves the judge from having to obey your argument about the relieving power of determinism. The status quo remains unchanged, having granted you no special rights above others.

[Anonymous No.19477283]

>>19476819

Show me a determinist who doesn't look both ways before crossing the street

[Anonymous No.19477307]

>>19476819
If you feel a sense responsibility it is a part of your biological hardcode and thus you were determined to feel that way. It is all determinism baby. The idea that guilt and blame are eliminated by the inevitability of action is dumb when you realize that how you feel and how people will react to your actions are also predetermined and inevitable

[Anonymous No.19477318]

>>19476819
>>19476824
>You don't. It absolves it completely.
Absolves what completely? There is no "you" to be responsible for at that point. The idea that determinism frees you from something implies (states outright actually) that there's some essence that's freed by determinism, or some autonomous way to acknowledge this is true. If there's determinism, there is only the products of determinism. There is NOT no responsibility, what there is is NOT EVEN no responsibility. The concept does not apply. When you look at someone else's actions and think "they're not responsible because they had no control", you're lapsing for a moment and viewing yourself as an autonomous entity that has some sort of control over your own thoughts or actions. At the end of the day, the law does not and should not care if the world is deterministic or not.

>That person had no control over their thoughts or actions, they weren't responsible
>I believe this to be true
>I have no control over my own thoughts or actions, but I believe this to be true
mfw

[Anonymous No.19477348]

>>19476828
This would just be an illusion. What is at stake here is wether anyone is ACTUALLY responsible.
>>19476832
How is it a non-sequitur? If I was predetermined to follow that path, then I literally had no choice on the matter. I would be as responsible as, say, a rock.
>>19477049
Kant's response, while extremely brilliant, works only if you accept the distinction between phenomena and noumena. He explicitly says in the Critique of Practical Reason that without this distinction there can be no freedom, and that all forms of naturalized compatibilism are sophisms, or, as he called them, word-jugglery.
>>19477283
>>19477193
You've missed the point.
>>19477177
>It is your responsibility to find the path of least resistance to the future, seeing as free will is an illusion
It's not your responsibility, since you have no power over reaching this outcome, unless you were predetermined to reach it.

[Anonymous No.19477554]

>>19477348
You mistook my point.

It is your responsibility to yourself to give yourself a life of minimal grief and suffering.

[Anonymous No.19477587]

>>19476819
>determinism
Dead meme. Absolutely absurd that there are non-religious persons out there that still entertain the idea.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2010/04/13/204836/first-evidence-that-quantum-processes-generate-truly-random-numbers/

[Anonymous No.19477669]

Determinism is at best completely irrelevant to any serious philosophical or moral question. Future is either completely undetermined or unknowable. With free will: knowing the future ahead of time allows you to change it. If future is deterministic yet impossible for us to determine then point is moot.

[Anonymous No.19477710]

>>19477554
If your life is predetermined, these talks abojt responsibility are empty and vague. I would have no choice in the matter, which means that I would have no responsibility either (unless you're assigning a secret meaning I'm unaware of to the word "responsibility")

[Anonymous No.19477719]

>>19477587
When it comes to free will "determinism" is not meant as "physical determinism". Determinism concerning free wills just mean that your actions are determined by processes that are independent from your will. If the world is probabilistic, we would still talk about determinism.
>>19477669
It is literally a fundamental question when it comes to morality, since, depending on the answer you give to it, you might end up with a world devoid of moral agents.

[Anonymous No.19477785]

>>19477719
There is emerging evidence from both psychology and medicine showing that cognitive processes, and even certain physiological ones are able to be directed.

[Anonymous No.19477803]

>>19477710

I'm not talking about the old testament abrahamic meaning of responsibility. Or lawfulness.

I'm talking about (by analogy) not impulse trading stonks and abandoning ship when it drops or impulse buying (FOMO) when you witness it jumping from baseline.

Fathom this, I take "deterministic" as in your "greater picture" is roughly stable and the "quantum wave form collapses" given enough time scale because of how much inertia society (tangible and observable when you look at history behaving cyclically, how dumb the masses can be, and how group behavior become predictable at large scales with statistics a la the pandemic) or the greater universe (less tangible and delves into metaphysics).

I intended to talk about "responsibility" as in perform your "trades" or your "free will actions" in accordance to the smoothed out trend lines rather than reacting to the turbulence or trying to go your own way and suffering losses and causing grief to loved ones and strangers in the process.

Example: You are either a really slick talker or have lots of money for lawyers. You speed everywhere because you like to drive fast. You get tickets a lot. You beat most of them. In the end, you still have your license and privilege to drive.

But you could have saved a lot of court fees and insurance premiums by driving the speed limit.

That's not to add that speeding doesn't actually get you to your destination much faster (maybe just in a more fun manner.)

[Anonymous No.19477806]

Them being held accountable is deterministic, as well.

[Anonymous No.19477895]

>>19476819
There's two enjoyable ways. The realist position holds that while determinism is true of things in themselves due to the laws of causality and nature, we still need to asume free will as true for our practical life and for morality to hold.

The pseudo idealist position is the inverse. Since the laws of nature and causality (as a causal chain) are merely the laws of appearences as they're presented to us, and free will is a spontaneous cause originating from reason, then free will is a cause in itself while the laws of nature are causes from the world of appearance. So, one thing can have both a determinist cause in appearance and a voluntary cause in itself. The latter argument is cooler.

[Anonymous No.19477966]

>>19477785
>are able to be directed.
By what?

[Anonymous No.19477972]

>>19477803
Yes that’s what responsibility means but there is no vantage point to look at someone on a deterministic universe to decide that they are or aren’t responsible for their actions, it’s a totally moot concept in that case

[Anonymous No.19477997]

>>19477283
He did so for a reason, therefore it was determined

[Anonymous No.19478004]

>>19476819
By spitting on whatever fags try to argue that

[Anonymous No.19478017]

>>19476819
>>19476824
I'm predestined to hold you responsible.

[Anonymous No.19478038]

>>19477669
>trash pic
>trash opinion

[Anonymous No.19478260]

>>19477966
Chemicals, physical stimulation or even concerted mental effort.

[Anonymous No.19478278]

>>19476819
The determined action of a bug or child is less than so of a developed adult. In this we can open up better opportunities to be determined in (we'll still only do one thing but it's higher quality actions).
The moral imperative, in general not formally, is to allow people to have these quality actions and this helps in anything and prevents bad things in everything.

[Anonymous No.19478282]

>>19476819
A determinist is either a LARPer Stoic or a C*lvinist, in either case you can just murder him to make your point.

[Anonymous No.19478288]

>>19476819
responsibility/morality should have no relevance in philosophy. they are purely proctical/logistical/political/personal matters, and arguing technicalities wont elevate them above opinion. now if the question isnt on a philosophical level but a personal one about my feelings and opinions, it would depend on the specifics

[Anonymous No.19478291]

>>19478282
False

>>19478278
True

[Card !jHyPHNoKGY No.19478976]

>>19476819
You have as much responsibility as you feel you have.

[Anonymous No.19478988]

>>19476854
No, retard.

[Anonymous No.19478989]

>>19476819
The only possible rebuttal is that free will is spooky and mysterious and we cant understand it. People who try to logically explain and defend free will are unironically deranged. It's like dedicating your life to talking about square circles

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.19478997]

>>19477318
>"the law" is some sort of autonomous entity

my god is there anything dumber than a determinist? why shouldn't they be put in extermination camps? provide one argument

[Anonymous No.19478999]

>>19476819
Even if your actions are determined, you still have to care about utilitarian morality. If you commit a murder, you still have to be held responsible because removing you from society benefits the whole.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.19479008]

>>19478288
all morality is derived from the bible

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.19479016]

>>19478999
>utilitarian morality

no such thing. utilitarianism is amoral autistic eugenicism and nothing more

[Card !jHyPHNoKGY No.19479018]

>>19478997
>why shouldn't they be put in extermination camps?
the fact they haven't means you definitionally can't.
if you think they should be, try then.

[Anonymous No.19479100]

>>19479008
Why can't butterfly think from a non western perspective ever?

[Anonymous No.19479105]

>>19479100
That's obviously not butterfly, even if you don't know what a trip code is butterfly would never say something like that

[Anonymous No.19479110]

determine deez nuts

[Anonymous No.19479279]

>>19477318
>>19477669
Good takes

[Anonymous No.19480089]

>>19476819
Just as your actions are determined so are the consequences of those actions

[Anonymous No.19480470]

>>19477972
That's like saying you should actively commit suicide or even not to go live an interesting life because the end fate/determined path is that you will die anyways.

Or that grades don't actually matter in the long run when you can just lie about a degree to get a job, so you might as well not try to pass your exams in college.

[Anonymous No.19480512]

>>19476819
By not being a dumb frogposter.

[Anonymous No.19480533]

>>19478017
b-b-but boethiah made me do it!

[Anonymous No.19480558]

>>19478260
lmao implying that these aren't physical mechanisms

[Anonymous No.19480680]

>>19480512
that's way out of line dude

[Anonymous No.19480803]

>>19476819
It doesn't make any sense at all. In a deterministic world people respond to incentives and are affected by the world around them, so teaching them morality and punishing them when they do wrong is still an effective way to maintain order and protect the community. Actually if the will is totally free and non-deterministic, then how would teaching someone morality even work? It would have no causal effect whatsoever.

[Anonymous No.19480807]

>>19476819
There is a perception lapse between reality and interpretation and it makes this entire charade feel real. Just stay in the moment bro.

[Anonymous No.19480839]

>AAAAA I NEED AN EXTERNAL AUTHORITY TO PLACE RESPONSIBILITY ON ME BECAUSE I DIDN’T HAVE A FATHER FIGURE GROWING UP AAAAAAAAA

[Anonymous No.19480863]

>>19480839
Looks like it was determined by fatherlessness

[Anonymous No.19480881]

[Anonymous No.19481600]

>>19478999
Yes, that’s the point. In a deterministic view someone who commits a crime was being led to do it without having any choice and yes they should be held captive for the sake of others even if technically they weren’t responsible for the events, but they shouldn’t be punished by it either, therefore death sentences don’t make any sense for example as well as other kinds of punishments such as isolation, torture, etc… it doesn’t make sense and if you think about it deeper is just pure cruelty because it could be any person in that place.

[Anonymous No.19481612]

>>19476819
>I want something, yet am distracted
>I focus and restrain myself
>I get the thing I want
How can determinists possibly explain that?

[Anonymous No.19481635]

>>19481600
>they should be held captive for the sake of others
Why?

[Anonymous No.19481661]

>>19480881
U got rekt pal

[Anonymous No.19481692]

What are some good books about determinism? I mean more on the philosophical side and not actual physics.