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19401044 No.19401044 [Reply] [Original]

I've seen multiple posts here recently saying how the Koran is basically retard tier. If this is so, why did someone like Guenon convert to Islam? This isn't a gotcha moment, I just don't get how someone that smart converted to a religion for inbred arabs.

>> No.19401057

Anything to disassociate from the decadent West.

>> No.19401060

>>19401044
>why did someone like Guenon convert to Islam?
>A microcephalic

>> No.19401080

>>19401044
It is retard tier. He converted exactly for that reason. It is so simple and new that it can not "invent" new tradition. He was very much against inventing or reviving lost traditions but because islam is so simple it is basically universal.

>> No.19401098

>>19401044
he schuon. martin lings ,Burckhardt etc.
also i worship him

>> No.19401163

>>19401044
1. The Koran isn't like the Bible. Yes, it is retard-tier when read in a prose translation, but it's specifically arabic sung poetry. It's more like the Divine Liturgy than like the Bible. Not only is the Koran not like the Bible, but most religions are not based on reading a holy book like an instruction manual, that's mainly just American evangelical/non-denominational Christianity. Muslims do not interact with the Koran the same way American Christians interact with the Bible. In fact, European Christians do not interact with the Bible the same way American Christians interact with the Bible
2. Guenon didn't convert because he thought the Koran was so great, he converted out of a desire for traditionalism and ritual which he found in Islam. Guenon didn't read the Koran cover to cover and go "wow this is so smart, I'm convinced." He wanted a community, he wanted to join an old heritage, and he found it in Islam
To be clear, you should not convert to Islam even if you want the same shit Guenon wanted. People who go converting to different religions for random material wants will turn into eternal immigrants, never satisfied with what they find; and Islam is simply untrue on a theological and cosmological level, and you could damn your soul with Muhammad's lies, but it's no mystery why Guenon would convert.

>> No.19401180

Because Guenon is retard tier, obviously.

>> No.19401187

>>19401163
The Quran is specifically forbidden to be sung.

>> No.19401189

guenon was interested in esoterism, not in religion(exoterism) and there are no initiatic organisations in the west. There's no way to get initiated in vedanta, because of caste, nor in taoism(basically impossible to find a true master, especially today); in 1912 he was initiated in tasawwf (If i recall correctly). To Guénon there's no such thing as 'conversion', only a change of external forms.

>> No.19401199

Because Guenon was a fucking chimp, anon.

>> No.19401205

>>19401163
>and Islam is simply untrue on a theological and cosmological level
yeah, a millenary civilization with an immense cultural and intellectual history, still alive to this day, based on lies

>> No.19401238

>>19401044
Quran is pretty lame, Arabs suck it off because they like to sing it as a hymn. Guénon converted to Islam because he didn’t believe Christianity had any true initiatic organizations left in the West, and that Islam was more accessible to Western man spiritually and geographically when compared to his preferred religion of Hinduism, Islam being not too different from Christianity but Eastern enough to retain some Traditional initiation links through Sufism. He’s a perrenialist so it isn’t that relevant what religious tradition he chooses as long as it has genuine initiation involved.

>> No.19401244

>>19401163
>Islam is simply untrue on a theological and cosmological level
I'm sorry were we talking about Christianity?

>> No.19401292

>>19401187
Tomaeto tomahto, it’s chanted
>>19401205
That is correct. Lots of empires are based on lies, lots of political dynasties are based on lies, lots of things in general are based on lies
>>19401244
No we’re talking about Islam

>> No.19401296

>>19401044
>I just don't get how someone that smart converted to a religion for inbred arabs

It's because Guenon is retarded and so is this board.

>> No.19401297

When the opium hits

>> No.19401304

>>19401044
Dementia and loneliness

>> No.19401309

>>19401044
Bro you calling Arabs inbred but have you even looked at Guenon? Clearly the result of some serious multi generational inbreeding

>> No.19401576

As a Frenchman he could see where his people were headed and he wanted to get in on the ground floor

>> No.19401886

>>19401292
you did not understand

>> No.19401889

>>19401044
>implying Guenon was smart in any way whatsoever

>> No.19401989

>>19401238
>Islam being not too different from Christianity
Lol

>> No.19402339
File: 2.25 MB, 2304x3599, 6E94A051-8AD2-4802-8326-24B6A6ED5798.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19402339

>>19401989
It would’ve been even more similar had Christianity not paganized in Europe.

>> No.19402454

>>19401044
>why did someone like Guenon convert to Islam?

Guenon thought he could self-insert Shankara's monism into the external LARPing of Islam via Sufism. He thought he saw Hindu Monism in an aspect of it, and never read the Quran deeply at all, hardly ever references it. Owned no arabic books at the time of his death in Cairo except for the Quran, apparently.

>> No.19402459

>>19401199
>>19401199

>> No.19402519

>>19402339
Look up the Dura-Europos Synagogue and the Huqoq synagogue

>> No.19403173

>>19402454
Based Guénon, Quran is all you need.

>> No.19403222

Guenon wanted to be initiated and no other genuinely traditional religion would initiate him like islam (sufism) would so he chose islam

>> No.19403313

>>19401044
These people have no preparation, they know nothing and just start reading a sacred book. What do you expect? Guenon wasn't the only one, Ibn Arabi and the other sufis also regarded the Quran as the main source for their esoteric writings. How do you prefer to believe, some profane modernist from 4chan or these people?

>> No.19403340

>>19401163
You were being based until your last paragraph.

>> No.19403355

>>19402454
>Shankara
>monism
Post disregarded.

>> No.19403390

>>19403313
This

>>19403340
Also this

>> No.19403482

>>19401304
he lived peacefully with a wife and kids retard

>> No.19404649

>>19401309
It's not his fault. Shredder poured mutagen on him while he was playing with rats.

>> No.19404673

>>19401044
>If this is so, why did someone like Guenon convert to Islam?
uhm... because the guy is retarded?

>> No.19404677

>>19401163
>It's more like the Divine Liturgy than like the Bible.
It literally is not, its mostly just gibberish.

>> No.19404691

>>19402339
dam how twisted do you have to be to see this as a reproach of some sort.

>> No.19404802

>>19402339
What do muslims think will happen to christinas on the last day since their religion is false and based on utter fabrication of the authentic teachings of Jesus and the church fathers like your pic says?

>> No.19404942

>>19404802
The Qur'an says most Christians (and People of the Book in general, including the Jews) are disbelievers, but there is a minority of them who are righteous believers whose good deeds will be repaid.

>... And were the People of the Book to believe, that would be better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are iniquitous. (3:110)
>They are not all alike. Among the People of the Book is an upright community who recite God’s signs in the watches of the night, while they prostrate. They believe in God and the Last Day, enjoin right and forbid wrong, and hasten unto good deeds. And they are among the righteous. Whatsoever good they do, they will not be denied it. And God knows the reverent. (3:113-115)

>> No.19405143

>>19404942
All Christians will go to hell according to the Qur’an because they acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God (and thus divine) and don’t follow the false prophet Muhammad.

>Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
Ergo if Christians don’t follow Muhammad they hate God

>> No.19405222

>>19405143
>All Christians will go to hell according to the Qur’an
Source? What he quoted from the Quran is clear regarding righteous christians (which obviously excludes a large portion of people who call themselves "christian" today)

It seems that you hate Muhammed more than you love Jesus are you sure your follow christianity because you believe in its message or is it just a reaction against the muslims? Regardless, God will judge your heart in the day of judgment and see all your thoughts.
>Ergo if Christians don’t follow Muhammad they hate God
You just pulled that out of your ass.

>> No.19405246

>>19401163
>and Islam is simply untrue on a theological and cosmological level, and you could damn your soul with Muhammad's lies
Based

>> No.19405266

>>19401163
Cringe.

>> No.19405318

>>19405222
>What he quoted from the Quran is clear regarding righteous christians (which obviously excludes a large portion of people who call themselves "christian" today)
So it’s basically a lie. Christians are even told to judge by the Gospel in 5:47, but this refutes Islam, so Muslims tell Christians that the *real* Gospel doesn’t even exist anymore, and that their book is corrupt. How funny that the verbatim words of Allah tell Christians to judge the Qur’an with a corrupt book. Seems pretty unfair, but this would just be par for the course for the ‘best of deceivers’

>> No.19405330

>>19401163
>and Islam is simply untrue on a theological and cosmological level, and you could damn your soul with Muhammad's lies, but it's no mystery why Guenon would convert.
What do you mean it's "simply untrue"? How do you know? This was almost a good post until your insufferable Christian smugness entered in

>> No.19405332

>>19401044
Alhamdulilah, God blessed Islam and the muslims with the Genius of Shaykh Abdul Wahid Yahaya.
The only thing kuffar can do is seethe about it, but alas it's all in vain because falsehood is bound by its nature to perish.

>> No.19405342

>>19405330
It's not even a good post. If it was true that Guenon didn't believe wholeheartedly in islam his last word wouldn't have been "Allah".

>> No.19405396

>>19405318
Coptic Christians had the Gospel of Thomas and the Q source is complied today by scholars.
You also have them on the internet today for free, you can't have any excuses.

Read those and Judge.
>https://www.gospels.net/thomas
>https://www.gospels.net/quelle
Jesus said, "When you see the one who wasn't born of a woman, fall down on your face and worship that person. That's your Father."

Where were you when Jesus refuted people worshiping him in a single sentence?

>> No.19405429

Run of the mill orientalism and too much opium.

>> No.19405445

>>19401044
Idk man I read the Quran and it was kind of lame. I enjoyed the Bible better.

>> No.19405506

>>19401044
"Guenon was muslim lol"

No.

"What also surprised me a great deal was the regret that I had no biographical information about myself; this is something I have always formally opposed, and above all for a reason of principle, because, according to traditional doctrine, individualities count for nothing and must disappear entirely ... But, in spite of this, I am obliged at least to rectify erroneous assertions when they occur; For example, I cannot let it be said that I am "converted to Islam", because this way of presenting things is completely false; anyone who is aware of the essential unity of traditions is by this very fact "unconvertible" to anything, he is even the only one who is; but he can "settle down", if it is permitted to express himself in this way, in this or that tradition according to circumstances, and especially for reasons of an initiatory nature. I would like to add in this regard that my links with Islamic esoteric organizations are not something more or less recent as some people seem to think; in fact, they are almost 40 years old...".
- Letter from René Guénon to A. Daniélou, August 27, 1947, my translation - i'm french and my English is bad so sorry if there are mistakes

Retarded Muslims who try to grab his glory must get out. Guénon was Sufi at the end of his life, for purely practical reasons: he already had links with Sufi organizations and he wanted to leave France. The closest and most convenient was the Maghreb.

99.99% of the Muslims who try to seize Guénon's genius by saying "he converted to Islam lol" are refuted by the master himself in this letter and probably never read him, because they would make apostate any Muslim having 1/10th of Guénon's beliefs. Some points of his belief in brief:

1. that all religions are currently valid to lead to God and that Islam is only the most practical path of our time for a European
2. that deliverance (union with the Absolute, death of the ego, al-fana' ) is superior to salvation (entry into paradise), the latter being there for the masses when deliverance is the way of the elites
3. that the world is a part of God and that there is an Absolute superior to the personal God.
4. that it is desirable to achieve supra-individual states through intiation
5. that there is an esoteric path that transcends religious divisions

The Sufi Islam of Guénon is: yes.

The exoteric Islam of 99.99% of the Muslims on earth: it's no, it's shit, and it's probably the worst exotericism still alive.

Small message to the islamists who play the guenonfags to convert naive people to their shitty sect.

>> No.19405511

Guenon was a retard. He literally died because he thought he was above western medicine

>> No.19405529

>>19403340
>>19405330
>can't handle random mentions of the writer's Christianity
blatant readlets I see

>> No.19405565

>>19405506
So... Muslim. Even Al-Azhar (highest sunni muslim authority) acknowledges him as a Shaykh and published some of his books in Arabic.
You desperation is pathetic. You can't accept that islam is specifically correct because you are a hypocrite.

>> No.19405569

>>19405529
>>19405529
>>can't handle random mentions of the writer's hypocrisy
Fixed.

>> No.19405649

>>19405396
Coptic Christians are miaphysite heretics, and the Gospel of Thomas is a late heretical Gospel. You prove nothing.

>> No.19405652

>>19405565
Something that's ignored by Guénon's readers is that there's a subtle but very important detail to consider; even though all authentic traditions are paths that lead to the same summit, there is a sort of 'qualitative' difference between them, for instance, Guénon considered Hinduism as the best representative of the Primordial Tradition in this cycle, it could be thought as the 'first' (in a qualitative sense) and on the other hand, you have Islam that appears as the last (not only in a historical but in a symbolical i.e qualitative way, the Seal of Prophethood) representative of the Truth. That's also related to the doctrine of the Cosmic Cycles, that although they're 'expressed' in this world as 'history' they operate following higher principles. I don't think that Guénon adopted Islam ONLY for 'practical reasons', there's something more.

>> No.19405746

>>19405649
You are the heretic idiot. They have been around longer and their church is older than your pathetic larp.

>> No.19405748

>>19405746
They are far less astray than Muslims but it’s a fact that they have heretical Christology

>> No.19405783

>>19405529
You can mention that you believe in Christianity, but every Christian poster inevitable ends up smiling his smug smile and saying something like
>at the end of the day, we know that it's objectively false, because it is not dogmatically Christian, and you can all agree with me on that! anyway...
As soon as I see that, I know that I can't trust anything they say. It's like a Victorian Englishman writing about Hinduism or Islam; you know that they really don't give a shit about what they're writing and they only see it all as quaint and primitive.

>> No.19405784

>>19405748
>They are far less astray than Muslims
Your opinion means nothing lol. I would say that they are less astray than any other christian denomination and that's why their tradition is still preserved and didn't sink into degeneracy like the rest of the "christian" world.
Now tell me who's more astray the Jews or the Muslims?

>> No.19405802

>>19405652
I think he talks more about this in The Mysteries of the Letter Nūn. You can also read L'Islam et la fonction de René Guenon by Michel Valsan.
http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/The_Mysteries_of_the_Letter_N%C3%BBn-by_Ren%C3%A9_Gu%C3%A9non.aspx
>To these already lengthy remarks we will add but one thing further: it follows from what we have just been saying that the accomplishment of the cycle, as we have envisaged it, should have a certain correlation, in the historical order, with the meeting of the two traditional forms which correspond to its beginning and its end, and which have Sanskrit and Arabic respectively for their sacred languages: the Hindu tradition, on the one hand, inasmuch as it represents the most direct heritage of the Primordial Tradition, and, on the other hand, the Islamic tradition which, as the “Seal of Prophecy”, represents the ultimate form of traditional orthodoxy for the present cycle.

>> No.19406021

>>19405506
Good post.
I would only contest your 1st point, and instead of religion, I would say Tradition, as Guenon did not believe that all true to the word religions realistically could currently lead to initiation or universal unity, as they have lost the principals which once allowed them an esoteric and initiatory nature.
It is splitting hairs, but there is a difference between religion and tradition, unless of course we are considering Guenon's definition of the word religion, in which religion is a subset of tradition, and not taking into account the modern deviation of certain religions, including Christianity, as the principle which upon is founded its traditional character has been all but lost.

>> No.19406037

Why didnt he converted to druze or sabians, but instead went with the the sandniggers delusions?

>> No.19406040

>>19405802
There are also the works of Charles-André Gilis, Oscar Freire, and Felice Pallavicini, that actually followed Guénon and were not subjected to Schuon.

>> No.19406059

>>19405396
Can't wait for AI wombs.

>> No.19406131

>>19406040
Never heard of those before. Thanks anon.

>> No.19406202

>>19406037
Because then he'd actually be mystical and esoteric and Guenon didn't want that. He wanted re-heated neoplatonism but with orientalist garb.

>> No.19407372
File: 97 KB, 920x825, 42E9E4C5-BEC9-4753-A2F8-49D0292FC09B.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19407372

>>19406059

>> No.19407450

>>19407372
Maybe there is hope for you tranny-san.

>> No.19407498

>>19401044
Posting pasta a French anon made:

Was Guénon a Muslim? No.

"What also surprised me a great deal was the regret that I had no biographical information about myself; this is something I have always formally opposed, and above all for a reason of principle, because, according to traditional doctrine, individualities count for nothing and must disappear entirely ... But, in spite of this, I am obliged at least to rectify erroneous assertions when they occur; For example, I cannot let it be said that I am "converted to Islam", because this way of presenting things is completely false; anyone who is aware of the essential unity of traditions is by this very fact "unconvertible" to anything, he is even the only one who is; but he can "settle down", if it is permitted to express himself in this way, in this or that tradition according to circumstances, and especially for reasons of an initiatory nature. I would like to add in this regard that my links with Islamic esoteric organizations are not something more or less recent as some people seem to think; in fact, they are almost 40 years old...".o
- Letter from René Guénon to A. Daniélou, August 27, 1947, my translation - i'm french and my English is bad so sorry if there are mistakes

Retarded Muslims who try to grab his glory must get out. Guénon was Sufi at the end of his life, for purely practical reasons: he already had links with Sufi organizations and he wanted to leave France. The closest and most convenient was the Maghreb.

99.99% of the Muslims who try to seize Guénon's genius by saying "he converted to Islam lol" are refuted by the master himself in this letter and probably never read him, because they would make apostate any Muslim having 1/10th of Guénon's beliefs. Some points of his belief in brief:

1. that all religions are currently valid to lead to God and that Islam is only the most practical path of our time for a European
2. that deliverance (union with the Absolute, death of the ego, al-fana' ) is superior to salvation (entry into paradise), the latter being there for the masses when deliverance is the way of the elites
3. that the world is a part of God and that there is an Absolute superior to the personal God.
4. that it is desirable to achieve supra-individual states through intiation
5. that there is an esoteric path that transcends religious divisions

The Sufi Islam of Guénon is: yes.

The exoteric Islam of 99.99% of the Muslims on earth: it's no, it's shit, and it's probably the worst exotericism still alive.

>> No.19407502

>>19407450
The color scheme is unfortunate, but it actually shows how two females can breed a healthy new mouse. More of a hope for lesbians than trans

>> No.19407635

>>19407498
>>19405506

>> No.19407682

It isn't retard tier. You formed an opinion on a book just from seeing posts? Read it for yourself and find out.

>> No.19407689

>>19407635
Hey. At least I said it was a pasta. Much older than this thread.

>> No.19407912

Can anyone recommend me a solid translation of the Qu’ran?

>> No.19407958

>>19407912
The Study Qur'an by Nasr et al. You can skip the commentary first time reading it.

>> No.19407997

>>19406040
>>19405802
Vâlsan is a kind of midwit but his translations of Ibn Arabi are good. People like Charles-André Gilis went too far in subjugating other traditions to Islam. If you want an 'orthodox' understanding of Guenon's work, read this website:
https://oeuvre-de-rene-guenon.blogspot.com/p/httpoeuvre-de-rene-guenon.html

>> No.19408147

>>19407958
Thank you. I’ve just read some of it (including some of the commentary) and for the most part it is very clear and concise. I will definitely be finding myself a phys. copy.

>> No.19408202

>>19408147
You are welcome anon. I myself prefer this translation over the others. I would also highly highly suggest reading a concise secondary work before reading the Qur'an. The text has a specific context and a function in Islam that I see most westerners miss when they read without preparation. I would recommend this text which is written by a highly regarded Shi'ite scholar:
https://www.al-islam.org/quran-islam-its-impact-and-influence-life-muslims-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-tabatabai

>> No.19408219

Atheist here: Islam is the most reasonable (or least unreasonable) religion in my view. Focus on the absolute unity and transcendence of God, not ethnic-particularist (like Judaism or Hinduism), sacred scriptures that aren't as riddled with historical-critical problems like accepted forgeries. If you have to pick one faith it's the most defensible one to go for I think.

I laugh at unironic Christians and Buddhists who will defend logical contradictions like the Trinity and anatta until they're blue in the face: "it's just a mystery bro!!!" I suppose it is quite possible that Islam has an equally laughable and contradictory article of faith somewhere but I don't know of one yet.

>> No.19408275

>>19408202
Yeah, I’ve been wondering how to approach it after discovering Ibn ‘Arabi and being totally compelled to learn more. This looks approachable so saving it for later.