Ligotti is undeniably right, human existence is practically the worst horror imaginable

[Anonymous No.19281612]

Every human is plopped as a vulnerable sack of flesh into a miniscule Planet of endless death, violence and exploitation, to toil their whole life against the tide of entropy, to face the crushing abyss of one's mortality and the oblivion thereafter, the materiality and unconsensual modifiability of their mind, the agony and frailty of the body, and other horrors so immense that they require the annihilation or repression of one's rational faculties just to find happiness in a bubble of placid blissful ignorance surrounded by infinite darkness

The worst part? There's no reason for any of it, the only thing that makes you distinct from any other object in the Universe, is that, by complete accident, you happened to have the misfortune of developing consciousness, a vulnerable emergent perception easily altered by physical effects on the brain such as brain damage and lesions, a self-aware stream of information that serves no purpose and does not grant you any more freedom or sanctity than an inanimate object before the Brownian chaos of the Universe: Free will, God, existentialism, afterlife, immateriality, inherent value, platonism, absurdism, soul, reincarnation, objective morality, these are all copes and delusions of grandeur of the human mind.

It's a fucking travesty that we continue this absolutely disgusting horrorshow instead of working towards extinction, all justifications are pure cope

>inb4 YOU CAN JUST KILL YOURSELF
Will still have suffered and been forced to dread and face the abyss of my mortality for no reason before getting there

>inb4 WE GONNA SURGICALLY REMOVE SUFFERING FROM THE BRAIN BRO TRANSHUMANISM AND SHIT
Drugging people into bliss still won't grant life any purpose to justify perpetuating its' existence rather than ending it all, we already can drug people into bliss even without altering their brain directly, a life of bliss is equally pointless as a life of suffering and only better due to the absence of the suffering, not due to the presence of the bliss

>inb4 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO GOD EXISTS BRO TRUST THE PLAN
Cope, even if he does he is an absolute sadist for designing nature as such an absolute bloody slaughterhouse and granting us zero clear justification or reasons for our perilous and despairing existence

>inb4 JUST DON'T THINK ABOUT IT BRO BE BLISSFULLY IGNORANT EMBRACE THE ABSURD
Still meaningless, no reason to think it's better than not being born

[Anonymous No.19281624]

>It's a fucking travesty that we continue this absolutely disgusting horrorshow instead of working towards extinction, all justifications are pure cope

>Will still have suffered and been forced to dread and face the abyss of my mortality for no reason before getting there

you really can just kill yourself and get it over with you whiny coward

[Anonymous No.19281633]

>>19281624
We don't have free will you fucking coping faggot, it's an extremely arduous task to muster up the courage to overcome your self-preservation instinct

[Anonymous No.19281637]

>>19281612
>Will still have suffered and been forced to dread and face the abyss of my mortality for no reason before getting there
Literally doesn't matter, just die already, return to oblivion and it will be the same as if you didn't existed. There won't even be a memory of your passing, neither regret nor sadness over having been alive. The proof of your life is denied to yourself, which is the only thing that matters. This argument underestimates how all consuming death is. Just take the final step, end it, return to nothingness. You will get there eventually, why prolong your suffering any more? Either way, it does not matter in the end, whether you lived for a minute or a thousand years, it's all gone in the end. Do it now or later, no difference.

[Anonymous No.19281642]

>>19281633
That's bitch talk you absolute spineless faggot you. Down a bottle of painkillers and a bottle of red wine and you won't even feel anything you monumental pussio

[Anonymous No.19281644]

>>19281633
Millions of people have done it, you are a coward who would rather scream into the void than to follow their own line of reasoning. Maybe you'd actually kill yourself if you had someone else telling you to.

[Anonymous No.19281671]

>>19281624
>>19281637
>>19281642
>>19281644
>pointing out flaws/contradictions in OP's behavior instead of flaws/contradictions in the core argument
Typical natalist cope, can't refute the argument and have to ad homimem
Even if OP is being hypocritical by not killing themselves doesn't mean they're wrong about suffering and meaninglessness, many pessimists who did KTS said similar things

[Anonymous No.19281675]

just become a masochist and find satisfaction in suffering op

[Anonymous No.19281685]

Pessimism is Perennial Truth

Wisdom Of Silenus:
>"You, most blessed and happiest among humans, may well consider those blessed and happiest who have departed this life before you, and thus you may consider it unlawful, indeed blasphemous, to speak anything ill or false of them, since they now have been transformed into a better and more refined nature. This thought is indeed so old that the one who first uttered it is no longer known; it has been passed down to us from eternity, and hence doubtless it is true. Moreover, you know what is so often said and passes for a trite expression. What is that, he asked? He answered: It is best not to be born at all; and next to that, it is better to die than to live; and this is confirmed even by divine testimony. Pertinently to this they say that Midas, after hunting, asked his captive Silenus somewhat urgently, what was the most desirable thing among humankind. At first he could offer no response, and was obstinately silent. At length, when Midas would not stop plaguing him, he erupted with these words, though very unwillingly: 'you, seed of an evil genius and precarious offspring of hard fortune, whose life is but for a day, why do you compel me to tell you those things of which it is better you should remain ignorant? For he lives with the least worry who knows not his misfortune; but for humans, the best for them is not to be born at all, not to partake of nature's excellence; not to be is best, for both sexes. This should be our choice, if choice we have; and the next to this is, when we are born, to die as soon as we can.' It is plain therefore, that he declared the condition of the dead to be better than that of the living."

Hegesias of Cyrene, Death by Starvation:
>The book was called Death by Starvation or The Death-Persuader. According to the Roman orator Cicero (lived 106 – 43 BC), the entire book was essentially an argument for why everyone should just give up on life and kill themselves.

Ecclesiastes 4:1
>Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed-- and they have no comforter; power was on the side of their oppressors-- and they have no comforter.
Ecclesiastes 4:2
>And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive.
Ecclesiastes 4:3
>But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.


THE DIALOGUE OF PESSIMISM, MESOPOTAMIAN WISDOM
>What then is good? To have my neck and yours broken, Or to be thrown into the river, is that good?
>Who is so tall as to ascend to heaven? Who is so broad as to encompass the entire world?

First Two Noble Truth of Buddhism:
>dukkha (suffering, incapable of satisfying, painful) is an innate characteristic of existence in the realm of samsara;
>samudaya (origin, arising) of this dukkha, which arises or "comes together" with taṇhā ("craving, desire or attachment")

[Anonymous No.19281686]

>>19281671
>themselves
What does his gender identity matter, why should it be respected, if literally ALL it does is reinforce and keep him trapped in his shithole of an existence? Wouldn't bullying all of you into suicide be actually the kind thing to do?

[Anonymous No.19281690]

>>19281671
I'm not here to argue in favor or against life, I just wanted to tell everyone who hates life to kill themselves and spare us their droning.

[Anonymous No.19281700]

>>19281612
>its'
This is even worse than using "it's" as the possessive pronoun. It means you actually thought about it for a second and then got it wrong anyway. Anti-natalists are confirmed midwits.

[Anonymous No.19281710]

Reveal the chin

[Anonymous No.19281720]

>>19281710

[Anonymous No.19281757]

>>19281612
Say, what is your blood type, brother sir? I have need of 3 or 4 additional soulmates along my quest.

[Anonymous No.19281798]

>>19281685
post more freindo

[Anonymous No.19282008]

>>19281612
What are you on about?

Ligotti's book is so immature

[Anonymous No.19282015]

>>19281637
Do you ascribe to the same worldview as OP?

[Anonymous No.19282033]

grow up

[Anonymous No.19282038]

>>19282033
Not an argument

[Anonymous No.19282042]

Why KYS when you just come back.
There's no escape from the shitshow.

[Anonymous No.19282045]

seems a little reductionist and melodramatic dont you think?

[Anonymous No.19282049]

>OP presents pessimistic effort post
>replies are:
>kill urself lol bitch
>nice spelling mistake retard
>post face xD
>ur so immature because...because you just are ok??
you really shouldn’t bother trying to have a discussion on this topic here. all you get are psueds who are angry that you think differently than them

[Anonymous No.19282052]

>>19282042
There's nothing supporting this claim.

[Anonymous No.19282053]

>>19282049
do you people not long for death?

[Anonymous No.19282055]

>>19282049
>effort post
>dude everything is le pointless and bad things le happen sometimes! babies forst existential crisis!!1

[Anonymous No.19282060]

>>19282015
No. I don't crave for death nor resent life, but I take death for what it is; the absolute destruction of everything, what lies ahead and before. There's no distinction between death and non existence, in my view. I find that thought comforting. I have just one go at life; consciousness is a miracle, a reaction of the brain. I appreciate it because it's all I have, but I have come to terms with its brevity. That's why dying young or old, by your hand or someone else's only matters to those left alive, and they will die too anyway. I choose to live with optimism, doing the best I can, because it will matter to me while I am still alive. Afterwards, the Earth might as well explode and I won't care because I won't have the ability to care. That's why I find this all so pointless. If you like living, live until you can't, and if you don't just get off the ride early. There's nothing more to the discussion than that, in my opinion.

[Anonymous No.19282065]

>>19282052
The universe shit me out once.
That shit will happen again, and again, and again... whether I want it to or not.

[Anonymous No.19282067]

>>19282049
What's the point of arguing? He's fully convinced, there's nothing to discuss with him. Everyone who wants to live is deluded according to his view.

[Anonymous No.19282069]

>>19282045
argument an not

[Anonymous No.19282073]

>>19281612
>by complete accident, you happened to have the misfortune of developing consciousness

>Immateriality is not real

I don't know for sure but aren't these baseless claims? I thought consciousness was something we know little about.

[Anonymous No.19282079]

>>19282065
I doubt that.

[Anonymous No.19282087]

>>19282079
I hope you're right.
I'm a living argument to why AN don't kill themselves; Because we know death probably sucks worse.

[Anonymous No.19282100]

>>19282073
Also, I don't understand how OP is asserting everything is meaningless and morality doesn't exist while suggesting it's an objective good to cease procreation. Again, not arguing with OP I'm just unfamiliar with line of thinking and need clarity.

[Anonymous No.19282114]

>>19282065
This is not how the universe works.

[Anonymous No.19282119]

>>19282114
you don't know that

[Anonymous No.19282129]

>>19282114
Let's hope.
I fond people a touch too smug in discussing what comes after.

[Anonymous No.19282131]

This always struck me as adolescent midwitism. What kind of perpetual teenager can spend an entire lifetime mulling over babby's first pessimism and nihilism?

[Anonymous No.19282134]

*find

[Anonymous No.19282144]

>>19282131
if only they knew that being a perpetual teenager who mulls over this stupid shit all day is the reason hey cant see past it and appreciate the gift of life

[Anonymous No.19282164]

>>19282144
I'm 21 and still poisoned by these ideas. I feel like once you've truly internalized there's no going back to ignorance.

Please point to an alternative if there is one. I can't keep living like this.

[Anonymous No.19282179]

>>19282144
I'm in my thirties.
Wait until baby's 2nd existential crises.
Its much gnarlier than the first, I assure you.

[Anonymous No.19282184]

You grow up and realize this is a childish viewpoint

[Anonymous No.19282197]

>>19282179
Where you able to navigate and overcome it?

[Anonymous No.19282203]

>>19282184
You grow up and adopt a cope.

Be honest

[Anonymous No.19282206]

>>19282179
i just hit this one at 25, been almost a year and a half of ruminating on this kind of thing pretty much every day. some days are better than others of course, particularly days where i stop arguing with myself and just live in the world for a while, but still

[Anonymous No.19282210]

>>19282197
Not yet. I'll let you know.
Death is such a shitty prospect the realer it becomes. You begin to feel the sword of damocles. Its not like when you were a teen and far enough removed to contemplate such things sanely.

[Anonymous No.19282218]

>>19282206
It seems to get better but linger, because of course death always lingers. sucks.

[Anonymous No.19282226]

>>19282060
dangerously based

[Anonymous No.19282238]

>>19282218
that's true. i remain optimistic though. even if it lingers, if it becomes bearable enough that i can walk around with it in my mind i guess i'm okay with that. that's started to happen a little bit i think, year or so ago i would go into a panic and couldnt eat and stuff thinking about these sorts of things but now i can read this thread and be okay lol. it sounds corny and many people in this thread will probably disagree but i find trying to express gratitude at the fact that im living at all helps too

[Anonymous No.19282253]

>>19282238
I constantly ruminate about these concepts and it's pure torture. It proves anti-natalists right because my mind is literally against me.

[Anonymous No.19282264]

>>19282238
>many people in this thread will probably disagree
I agree with that statement.

They likely think they know what we're talking about but have no idea. There's existential crisis (yawn) and Super Shredder existential ass-raping.

Sounds like you found the latter as our reaction was exactly the same. I couldn't look at food, my stomach became so tight. I'd sleep in fits and starts of waking madness and choke cigarettes until my fingernails were stained. Woke up shaking most days and wanted nothing more than to go back to nothingness (sleep).

Truly contemplating death is fucked.

Better now, but I feel a perpetual unease is my cross to bear. A souvenir.

[Anonymous No.19282272]

>>19282253
i hope you find a path that gives you some peace of mind, anon. like i was sayin for me personally some extra gratitude and reading up on Buddhist concepts has helped but everyone's journey is different. the fact that we're fighting at all ofc means we dont want to give in, and im willing to bet that means we're gonna win someday
>>19282264
man that sounds really rough yeah, despite the unease im glad you're feeling better now anon. yeah i wonder if some of the people in this thread only experience this stuff as a sort of intellectual exercise haha, though i dont wanna necessarily judge them i cant read their mind

[Anonymous No.19282276]

>>19281612
You'll get past it anyway, and even if/when you do, you'll run into more shit. If you treat life as a set of variables, a sum equation, or other 'ordered' way, or if you claim it's the exact 'opposite', chaos, you'll inevitably become trapped within that perception. Yes, suffering exists, and there may not be meaning behind some of its manifestations, but how is nothingness any 'better'? There is no answer, nothingness is unimaginable, and probably non-existent (not to any perspective, per say, but until a perspective exists, there is no 'nothing'). This is assuming your premise is even correct, and that nihilism is true. Some people resort to being a part of a sum as an attempt to find meaning, which is also true, just not necessarily in the specific way they think. But ultimately, there is no proof either way. Choose what to believe. If you truly feel at your core that there is nothing but horror, then you may believe that, if you wish. It would not be my burden to carry. But to attempt to sully others' beliefs for no other reason than 'all life is horrible' is either incredibly vain, or incredibly self-righteous. Unacceptable, by my own standards, anyway.

[Anonymous No.19282282]

>>19281612
>existence the worst horror imaginable
You are free to close the book any time you've had enough, crybabies

[Anonymous No.19282286]

>>19282272
>i wonder if some of the people in this thread only experience this stuff as a sort of intellectual exercise
I think there is where the disconnect lay.
The don't feel the breath on their neck yet.

[Anonymous No.19282292]

>>19281686
What did this have to do with gender identity, faggot?

[Anonymous No.19282293]

>>19282053
No but I do wish I didn't ever exist

[Anonymous No.19282306]

>>19281612
>someone being correct on 4chan
>instant wormpilled life apologist replies
it checks out, sir

[Anonymous No.19282314]

>>19282306
yeah

[Anonymous No.19282315]

>>19282293
That should be capped for all the "just kys if you hate life so much I am very very smart" posts.

[Anonymous No.19282316]

>>19282100
>morality doesn't exist while suggesting it's an objective good to cease procreation
There is no clarity that can fix this: they have morphed the perceived lack of ethics into its own form of ethics, while denying it at the same time. The Stoics already covered this one.

[Anonymous No.19282318]

>>19282293
So kill yourself. Existence is the easiest problem ever to fix, even if you do nothing, you will pop out of existence in the blink of an eye, no one will care or remember
Quit moping

[Anonymous No.19282328]

>>19282272
>reading up on Buddhist concepts has helped
honestly very true, I've always had the same mindset ligotti has on life, I never knew too much about buddhism and assumed it was to hinduism what christianity is to judaism until recently when I read up about it. buddha was unironically incredibly fucking woke on this shit and I would also heavily encourage looking into buddhism. Stop thinking of life as something that is either "good" or "bad" even though the concept of it would clearly be malicious under our basest moral system, Life simply is.

[Anonymous No.19282334]

>>19281612
>you happened to have the misfortune of developing consciousness
Consciousness never developed but It is instead beginningless, immutable and eternal, forever established in Itself, intrinsically pure, blemishless, undivided, complete and ever-fulfilled pristine awareness which is effortlessly and naturally blissful. This effulgent consciousness is untouched by sorrow, anguish, pain, boredom and fear, nothing can touch, harm or modify it in any way whatsoever. It has no need of anything and requires no sustenance. It is what abides forever, as the unmodified and free space-like presence in which the appearance of the universe is suspended.

This supernal light of awareness is always what is most immediate and self-evident, It's right under your nose in each and every moment, more immediate than your thoughts and sense-perceptions and yet the indiscriminating fail to realize It like the blind man who is unable to clearly know the sun whose light he constantly basked in. The ignorant fool identifies the uninterruptable light of his consciousness with the changing mind states and thinks "this thought is consciousness" and "this sensation of pain or emotion is consciousness" and from this follows the mistaken conclusion that consciousness is intrinsically painful or unfulfilled. All you have to do is separate the grain of pure awareness from the exterior husk of thoughts and other mental modifications that falsely seem to enclose, modify and objectify it. When this investigation fruitions, the luminous and tranquil unaffected presence dwelling within the heart reveals Itself as the very core of one's being, and all of one's sorrows and fears evaporate in an instant, leaving you basking in the bliss of spiritual fulfillment and Self-knowledge.

>vulnerable emergent perception easily altered by physical effects on the brain such as brain damage and lesions
These only alter the mind's ability to intake and process information, the invisible and partless light which illuminates that mind is completely unaffected by any of these or anything. The light of awareness which reveals the functioning of the perfectly healthy brain and the impaired brain is identical is both cases, the only difference inheres in the object illumined; this is why we always have infallible access to whatever action or state the mind is engaged in, even the mind itself and its thoughts and interpretations are fallible.

[Anonymous No.19282335]

All pessimism dissolves in the face of good pussy. There is no discussion of this because no published pessimist had ever hit pussy this good, the pussy of the type I am referring to. It's a totally unexplored area of philosophy and it's unlikely to ever be explored, because this kind of pussy change a nigga. The king of this type of pussy I am referring to doth not wanteth no fame, no thought, no salvation, cuz he got all that. He seen it. Das all there is too it

[Anonymous No.19282352]

>>19282286
This is actually one of my ways to cope, I'm honestly running from it. 'Do not go gentle' and all that. 'Cope' itself doesn't really mean much.

[Anonymous No.19282361]

>>19281612
If this is to be true, then the interesting question becomes how is it in the face of meaninglessness and suffering people are able to be happy and blissful? No amount of retarded blackpill can change the fact that I am happy and that I love my life. To describe this the conceptual framework must either: 1) vilify and reject my own quality of being a happy individual (not actually happy, ignorant, selfish) or 2) accept that the nihilism of the universe and worldwide suffering isn't necessarily connected to human happiness. 1) isn't descriptive and would generally classify as cope and 2) dismantles the intensity and purpose of the conceptual framework itself. What will it be?

[Anonymous No.19282369]

>>19282315
People will literally always think that "just kill yourself if u hate life so much lol" is a smart/clever reply to nihilism and related ideas even though it shows they don't understand the problem in even a toddler-level capacity

[Anonymous No.19282386]

>>19282369
It's not smart, or clever, but it is correct in its assumption that the culmination thinking life is meaningless ultimately applies to the perception of life as well. This does not address suffering, either, this is treating it as wholly separate. If you believe otherwise, it's some form of existentialism.

[Anonymous No.19282396]

>>19282369
There is no problem. It's not a clever reply, it is the simple reductio ad absurdum to your asylum ignorantiae.
Your life has no inherent value, in fact you are a net loss. If you find it meaningless and unenjoyable, do the rest of us a favor

[Anonymous No.19282416]

>>19281612
I dropped this whiny cunt of a book 1/3 the way through and don't regret it. Insufferable drivel.
>0/10

[Anonymous No.19282422]

Most people who reach middle and/or old age look back on their lives with satisfaction and did not ever attempt to kill themselves or even seriously consider it.
If life as a general rule was nothing more than this awful grinding hell of death and cruelty and misery, why would the majority of its sufferers be overall pretty happy with it?

[Anonymous No.19282436]

>>19282422
>why would the majority of its sufferers be overall pretty happy with it?
because COPIUM IS A HELLUVA DRUG, ANON. BECAUSE WHO WANTS LIFE TO BE NOTHING MORE THAN AN AWFUL GRINDING HELL OF DEATH AND CRUELTY AND MISERY? BECAUSE I'D RATHER BE ON COPIUM IF I COULD BE THAN CUTTING MY WRISTS, WHO WOULDN'T?

[Anonymous No.19282441]

>>19282335
this. everyone in this thread needs to touch grass ASAP

[Anonymous No.19282442]

>>19282292
>themselves
>they're
learn to read homo

[Anonymous No.19282449]

>>19282055
>look how silly I made you!!! lmao your argument isn’t valid now xD
>>19282067
then why post at all

[Anonymous No.19282450]

>>19282422
Because they're absolutely deluded with idea that there's something more or that happiness is even possible. If most people were to understand that materialism has eliminated any chance of the soul/transcendent existing they wouldn't think twice about blowing their head off. Consciousness is nature having a nightmare.

Please convince me otherwise.

[Anonymous No.19282454]

I personally do not understand why certain individuals are so inclined to sully people’s motivations for life, rather than having their own motivations of anti-natalism that they keep to themselves, allowing them to end their own lives without spending even a minuscule quantity of more unnecessary time to the amount of suffering they have endured. The response of saying “we will still have suffered” to the announcement of the possibility of suicide is nothing substantial, since committing suicide will eradicate the possibility of any further suffering, and will, in the materialist’s view, end the apparatus that allows retrospection on suffering in the first place.

The motivation of ‘trying to alert other people of their suffering’ doesn’t matter either, since people will believe whatever they want to believe based on their own disposition and circumstance; billions of people in the world are religious, and hence would rather say something like “Come soon, Lord Jesus” over “MUH UNIVERSE IS JUST A BUNCH OF ENTANGLED QUARKS AND FORCES TUMBLING TOWARDS A SINGULARITY OF NOTHINGNESS WITH NOTHING BUT SUFFERING ON THE WAY”.

Such a cope. I’d rather believe my life isn’t just the result of meaningless permutations throughout an environment of infinitely possible physical conditions. I’d rather believe that my suffering is already commensurate to something beyond my current existence. Wouldn’t you?

[Anonymous No.19282457]

>>19282449
>why post
the million dollar question, equally as valid as why not kys

[Anonymous No.19282458]

>>19282396
You've done nothing but display your brainletness.
Tell me how life being shit makes the terror of death no longer an obstacle in anything but the most extreme cases.

You equate not being born with death and yet worry about assumptions and hasty conclusions.

[Anonymous No.19282466]

>>19282458
Why would anyone feel a terror towards death if life is fundamentally nothing other than excruciating torture? could it be that you're not as sad as you wish you were?

[Anonymous No.19282479]

>>19282466
To give death thought is to paint a million tortures worse than life. Your survival instinct wanes none even in the face of a pointless or cruel existence.

[Anonymous No.19282481]

>>19282416
You couldn't handle it, you choked on the truth

[Anonymous No.19282487]

>>19282073
>aren't these baseless claims?
Consciousness itself might not be a material thing, but it's entirely generated and determined by material things, there is quite literally NOTHING indicating that there is even the POSSIBILITY of consciousness coming back into existence after it's destroyed (reincarnation) or having some sort of immaterial element (afterlife/soul)

Sure, your consciousness came from nothing when you were born, and some people use this as an argument for it coming from nothing another time after you die reincarnating you, but consciousness is a stream of information that is only sustained by being physically continuous, sure, none of your brain cells are left over from when you were a child, but they didn't get replaced instantly, it was a very gradual process, which is why your consciousness was changed rather than destroyed like it will be after death

>>19282466
Survival instinct, WE. DON'T. HAVE. FREE. WILL. RETARD
The terror of death is easily one of the most excruciating agonies that a person can face and is only overcame in the most dire circumstances

[Anonymous No.19282489]

>>19282479
I like your pretty words, sadboi. But they do nothing to dissuade me of your profoundly pathetic nature. You could join the military, gain some PTSD, and then blow out your brains when you finally can't take it anymore

[Anonymous No.19282494]

>>19282487
>WE. DON'T. HAVE. FREE. WILL. RETARD
YOU. CHOOSE. TO. BELIEVE. THAT. AS. IS. YOUR. RIGHT. RETARD

[Anonymous No.19282500]

>>19282489
And what if there are people built to never top out, to never reach the point where they "can't take it anymore" yet have a lifelong aversion to "it?"

Do you see the point?

[Anonymous No.19282505]

>>19282487
>WE. DON'T. HAVE. FREE. WILL. RETARD
Such cope

Btw using materialistic science there is a non 0% probability that in 10^1000000000000000….0 years from now random particles will reassemble into our current brain state and therefore we will be conscious again.

And Quantum Immortality is an existent hypothesis.

[Anonymous No.19282510]

>>19282500
Then there is nothing left to do other than pity those people. That said, bullying people like you into suicide would be a kindness, would it not?

[Anonymous No.19282516]

>>19282494
>>19282505
Believing in free will won't give me any more free will than i already have (And the answer is likely 0%)

I choose not to delude myself into believing in free will or Quantum Immortality because of Occam's Razor and Russel's Teapot

[Anonymous No.19282521]

>>19282516
>I choose not to delude myself into believing in free will or Quantum Immortality because of Occam's Razor and Russel's Teapot
>I choose to ignore my capacity to choose
hilarious

[Anonymous No.19282524]

>>19282510
You can't bully people like me, nor convince me to suicide because its sadder the worse of two evils.
Eventually I'll die naturally, which means nothing because >>19282505
I think is the correct take. I'm coming back. Consciousness never goes out once alight, sadly. So in the meantime I'm trying to get used to myself.

[Anonymous No.19282528]

>>19282521
Just because i choose things doesn't mean the choice wasn't deterministic in nature, you don't know what determinism means

[Anonymous No.19282539]

>>19282516
>I choose not to delude myself into believing in free will or Quantum Immortality
That doesn't preclude them from being true.
We are going to find that fucking teapot, as well.

[Anonymous No.19282543]

>>19282528
There is no possibility of choice if that "choice" was predetermined. I know full well what determinism means. If you have no choice, and merely the illusion of choice, then you cannot choose. You are at best fated to believe that you did choose, mistakenly so.

[Anonymous No.19282559]

>>19281612
if you truly believed these things, you'd kill yourself as soon as possible. there have been many people in history who earnestly held these beliefs, even if just for a brief period. you are not one of them.

[Anonymous No.19282560]

>>19282543
That's just a matter of semantics at that point

When i say i "choose" things, i don't mean that i somehow am causally unpredictable in making my decisions

What i mean is that, given the set of circumstances i was in, i had the physical capability to do something else, but the particular mind state i was predetermined to be in at that moment made me do what i did

So i guess you're right that i'm not really choosing anything, but i just use that word out of convenience

[Anonymous No.19282567]

>>19282559
holy shit, it never stops, does it?

[Anonymous No.19282585]

>>19282560
You freely choose to use the word choose out of convenience, even though you know it's a misnomer. Pretty funny that. One would think that people as committed to the truth, as you surely are, would not reinforce their own system of convenience. Then again, nothing's ever your responsibility, is it?

[Anonymous No.19282590]

I don't know what /lit/ will do as soon as Ligotti ropes. Their entire argument will collapse.

[Anonymous No.19282596]

>>19282585
>You freely
Define "freely", if you mean "freely" as in "a machine that knew the state of every particle in the Universe couldn't fully predict your behavior" then there is no evidence of nondeterministic behavior like that in the human brain

[Anonymous No.19282598]

>>19282436
>Everybody's perspective is clouded but mine, only I can see the truth
Myopic and silly.

[Anonymous No.19282599]

Jesus H. Christ, get a life, people.

[Anonymous No.19282602]

>>19282596
>>19282596
>a machine that knew the state of every particle in the Universe
physically impossible. pragmatically and mechanically, you are free.

[Anonymous No.19282605]

>>19282590
I have never prayed so hard for another man's downfall

[Anonymous No.19282609]

>>19282599
Give me an alternative! Once you know the truth there's no going back.

[Anonymous No.19282611]

>>19282567
Finally, some advice for our dear pessimists and other decadents. It is not in our hands to prevent our birth; but we can correct this mistake — for in some cases it is a mistake. When one does away with oneself, one does the most estimable thing possible: one almost earns the right to live. Society — what am I saying? — life itself derives more advantage from this than from any "life" of renunciation, anemia, and other virtues: one has liberated the others from one's sight; one has liberated life from an objection. Pessimism, pur, vert, is proved only by the self-refutation of our dear pessimists: one must advance a step further in its logic and not only negate life with "will and representation," as Schopenhauer did — one must first of all negate Schopenhauer. Incidentally, however contagious pessimism is, it still does not increase the sickliness of an age, of a generation as a whole: it is an expression of this sickliness. One falls victim to it as one falls victim to cholera: one has to be morbid enough in one's whole predisposition. Pessimism itself does not create a single decadent more; I recall the statistics which show that the years in which cholera rages do not differ from other years in the total number of deaths.

[Anonymous No.19282619]

>>19282609
spite

[Anonymous No.19282625]

>>19282619
Pathetic.

[Anonymous No.19282627]

>>19282481
>Summary: "Life sucks."
Why continue reading?

[Anonymous No.19282630]

>>19282625
So? Name a better option if you can, or keep wallowing in your own tear-filled cloaka

[Anonymous No.19282631]

>>19282611
That's a nice way to say pessimism is a reaction and not some objective foundation of life.
I still don't buy it, however.

[Anonymous No.19282632]

>>19282602
Even if a machine predicting the entire Universe is impossible there are plenty of machines that can predict or manipulate your entire behavior (Look up Jose Delgado), which elicits the same somber effect of proving that you are no more free than an inanimate object

[Anonymous No.19282637]

>>19281612
>"But life is so HARD AND PAINFUL!"
Ok. What's it to us? You yourself say that a blissful life is meaningless, so presumably even if life was not painful you would still bitch and whine. What if life is painful? The pain and suffering and meaninglessness is also meaningless. When you realise that the suffering doesn't matter either, your eyes begin to open. Eventually, if your soul is sufficiently alive, this mindset leads you to the light.

[Anonymous No.19282646]

>>19282637
Please tell me what the light is, anon.

[Anonymous No.19282654]

>>19282646
meth

[Anonymous No.19282661]

>>19282632
Neuroscience says nothing other than elucidating the receiving apparatus of consciousness and its mechanisms. There are even experiments going against the idea of determinism.

[Anonymous No.19282665]

>>19282646
According to Paul pbuh:
>According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

[Anonymous No.19282672]

>>19282646
I don't want to shill my personal views. If I had to offer more general advice, I would say look to Zen. Zen is a good path. You do not need to walk that path. Look into your heart and figure out what you want. Build your resolve. Then walk whatever path you wish.

[Anonymous No.19282677]

>>19282598
>Myopic and silly.
You're just repeating to me what I said about the copium. Funny how that works? Keep pretending like you aren't doing the same thing I am.

[Anonymous No.19282689]

>>19281612
You forgot the part where being conscious and simultaneously intelligent enough to have the understanding of the universe that a human has is the rarest and most precious thing in the entire universe. The fact that, despite all odds, you existed here long enough and were intelligent enough to even write all that out is borderline miraculous and inconceivable by any and all other living creatures.

[Anonymous No.19282724]

>>19282677
Nice attempt there friend but if you look at what my original post was, the entire point was that most people seem pretty content with their lives. Ask any 70 year old grandparent if they'd choose to have never been born, even if they're in their twilight years by then.
Your argument was the only one that was asserting "everybody is wrong but me." Mine is that you, specifically, are wrong.
Antinatalist faggots have a tendency to do this, generalizing their own experiences to everyone else and claiming that if most normal people aren't miserable then they "should" be because they just don't understand the world like you, or some shit.

[Anonymous No.19282735]

I am so fucking tired of reading something that a brain which does not function as it should has brewed

[Anonymous No.19282749]

>>19282735
Depressed people are closer to reality

[Anonymous No.19282766]

>>19282749
There is no reality you fucking imbecile, go read a fucking book you fucking moron.

[Anonymous No.19282787]

>life - the period of time when a person is alive

>meaning - the end, purpose, or significance of something

end? debatable
significance? none that I can see
purpose? to sort genetic code in a way that continues life

Literally have sex, raise children, and stop thinking so much

[Anonymous No.19282818]

>>19282787
this

[Anonymous No.19282882]

it is hilarious to me to see people call pessimism “edgy teenager nonsense” and then in the same post say “why don’t you just kill yourself kid...we should bully weaklings like you to get you to end your pathetic life, it would be a kindness”
I am impressed with the total lack of self awareness ITT

[Anonymous No.19282896]

>>19282882
If it weren't just edgy teenager nonsense, if life truly were fundamentally a terrible terrible mistake, then why wouldn't suicide be the honest answer to it?

[Anonymous No.19282928]

>>19281612
how is this shit not just christianity but without the belief in god

[Anonymous No.19282971]

>>19282896
Of course

You can't refute OPs core claims, though

[Anonymous No.19282977]

>>19282971
they were already refuted here >>19282334

[Anonymous No.19282997]

>>19282896
another thing that is hilarious to me is that, despite hundreds of threads and attempts to explain, people (like (You)) STILL don’t understand anti-natalism or pessimism

[Anonymous No.19283001]

Anyone an ex-antinatalism here? How did you escape this reasoning?

[Anonymous No.19283031]

Bumpin'

[Anonymous No.19283071]

>>19282997
What is it you don't think I understand. Life is mostly suffering, consciousness is a terrible terrible mistake, existence should not exist. What am I missing?

[Anonymous No.19283087]

>inb4 YOU CAN JUST KILL YOURSELF
>Will still have suffered and been forced to dread and face the abyss of my mortality for no reason before getting there
Yeah but you can stop it right there instead of suffering pointlessly. Meanwhile life's good over here lmaoi g at your life.

[Anonymous No.19283115]

>>19281612
Is the book worth reading if I have already read (and am a fan of) his fiction? Is it worthwhile as literature alone?

[Anonymous No.19283124]

>>19283115
yeah

[Anonymous No.19283131]

>suffering is more prevalent than non suffering
Source?
>Existence of even smallest inconvenience nullifies every imaginable pleasures
Source? Elaborate?
>Objective moraluty doesn't exist yet it will be moral to end all conscious humans
Why?

[Anonymous No.19283170]

>>19283131
This

Someone elaborate

[Anonymous No.19283206]

>>19281633
This is proof that you don't hate living, you just want a better life but cope by saying you hate all life universally. This entire philosophy is a projection of your psychology as an individual, nothing more. This should be obvious when others disagree with your philosophy by saying they like life and they aren't afraid of death, but people like you always switch things around and say that these people who've accepted life are the one's who are coping. The cope and seethe is entirely on you!

[Anonymous No.19283210]

>>19281612
>ah bloo bloo

[Anonymous No.19283223]

>>19282749
Scientifically, they are not. They are almost always blinded by stress (which worsens brain functioning) they typically are isolated and spend all their time with coping mechanisms. Even the claim that depressed people are smarter/more correct is itself a cope.

[Anonymous No.19283239]

>>19283001
It's quite easy actually.
>Realize that life if suffering
>suffering = bad
> less suffering = better
>live your life trying to lessen the suffering around you through normal human interactions or even with politics etc etc.
<now you have meaning in your life and strentgh to push on

No reason to linger in anti-natalism. You realize something from it, but there is no reason to stop there.

[Anonymous No.19283260]

>>19281612
>Every human is plopped as a vulnerable sack of flesh into a miniscule Planet of endless death, violence and exploitation, to toil their whole life against the tide of entropy
This is based. Playing on hard mode is based. Stop being a faggot.

>to face the crushing abyss of one's mortality and the oblivion thereafter
wahhhh, wahhhh! I was told there would be an afterlife waaaahhhh
fucking fag.

>and other horrors so immense that they require the annihilation or repression of one's rational faculties just to find happiness in a bubble of placid blissful ignorance surrounded by infinite darkness
No, it only requires not being a complete faggot 24/7

Get your fucking hand off it mate.

[Anonymous No.19283265]

>>19281612
woww, you recognized one of the Four Noble Truths, congratulations; keep going

[Anonymous No.19283274]

>>19281612
>kill youself
>BUT I CAN'T I DON'T HAVE FREE WILL!!!
Then how does anybody actually kill themselves? How is it possible for depressed person A to kill themselves but not depressed person B?

It's obvious you're using intellectualism to justify your emotions and your poor mental health. First, you develop mental problems, secondly you lead yourself to believe this MUST be the objective way of life and philosophy! OH, WHY CAN'T THE UNENLIGHTENED HAPPY PEOPLE SEE? SEE THAT MY OPINIONS AND EMOTIONS ARE OBJECTIVE PHILOSOPHICAL TRUTHS? WOE!

[Anonymous No.19283282]

>>19282067
The fact everyone focuses on showing how smart they are instead of seeing if he’s right and fails to make a real argument for consciousness being a gift..
shows how many kids are here

[Anonymous No.19283288]

>>19281612
>they require the annihilation or repression of one's rational faculties just to find happiness
It is impossible to use reason alone to find happiness or sadness. Saying that
>A=B
>B=C
>Therefor C=A
Does not make you happy or sad. You are confusing the rational faculty for the emotional faculty.

>>19283265
Yes, this, very based.

[Anonymous No.19283294]

>>19281612
>being a middle class white guy is so hard!!!!!

[Anonymous No.19283301]

>>19282977
Not everyone believes in shitskin religion.
You actually falling for that post? If consciousness was what he said why would philosophy professors keep studying it. They could just pay that anon, close the book and quit studying.

The truth is that consciousness is either terrible or amazing, and there are only theories for terms of defining it scientifically.

[Anonymous No.19283346]

>>19283301
>You actually falling for that post?
I wrote it
>If consciousness was what he said why would philosophy professors keep studying it. They could just pay that anon, close the book and quit studying.
No, because doing what that post mentions isn't easy, it takes a combination of intense study of the literature that explains *how* to do it, the developing of the capacity for thinking clearly and focusing intently, the removal of distractions and mental/emotional obstacles, and it also requires one to do the investigation for oneself and remain at it until one succeeds. This is why any professor or anyone else who reads about it in passing won't automatically get it.
>The truth is that consciousness is either terrible or amazing
Consciousness is an amazing, glorious and sublime pleroma

[Anonymous No.19283379]

>>19283346
> I wrote it
I should explain that I only object to you defining what I would view as an entirely incompatible subject as being related to consciousness.

I do find it can be harmful to make the two blended into one category. But I think I will acknowledge the limits of language.

To go for a more apt definition of what I’m describing
> consciousness is the feature that makes states count as experiences in a certain sense: to be a conscious state is to be an experience. Widely (but not universally) accepted examples would include sensory states, imagery, episodic thought, and emotions of the sort we commonly enjoy. For instance, when you see something red, it looks somehow to you; when you hear a crash, it sounds somehow to you. Its looking to you as it does, and its sounding to you as it does are experiences in this sense. Likewise, when you close your eyes and visualize a triangle, or when you feel pain, the visualizing and the feeling are experiences. Similarly, you typically have experiences in thinking about how to answer a math problem, or what to say in an email, in recalling where you parked the car, and in feeling anger, shame, relief, or elation. Experiences in this sense are said to have varying “phenomenal character” for one who has them. Where feelings are concerned, these would be the varying ways they feel to you. However, not all experiences are classifiable as feelings. So more broadly we might say that how you experience your own experience—how it is “subjectively experienced”

I suppose I find your insistence on a ‘higher’ truth gives the impression that you don’t take into account the mind body problem and that you are also saying that we have lost some secret wisdom. If that were the case which primitive peoples would you point to as conscious of the correct meaning?

[Anonymous No.19283381]

>>19281612
If this is the worst horror imaginable, then horror really aint so bad.

[Anonymous No.19283395]

>>19281612
Imagine being born in hell and reading books only to bolster your bitching. Go look at a fucking cloud. Fuck off with this nihilism bullshit. Your best case scenarios presented are neck-deep in depression.

[Anonymous No.19283396]

>>19281612
Stupid Materialist. You pay attention only to what is revealed and not to the light that it is revealed in, consciousness, which comes before its contents. The immanent life that is the transcendental condition for all intentional appearance but never itself appears cannot be alienated from me into the material world or made into some kind of material object. I know I am real and I am real before I transcend myself in order posit myself as an object. My Soul is the absolute immanence of Life, completely free, spontaneous, and eternal. Time is created only by transcendence, by leaving the living present in favor of intentional consciousness, but life is immanent, and precedes this.

In conclusion I am immortal and I have free will, fuck you.

[Anonymous No.19283401]

>>19283381
Seconding this

I guess I have nothing to fear

[Anonymous No.19283402]

You want to end suffering? What are you? Gay?

[Anonymous No.19283406]

>>19283401
Its like Schopenhauer saying that this is the worst possible world. OK then, guess it can't get any worse?

[Anonymous No.19283420]

Do what Nietzsche said and die for a life project

[Anonymous No.19283426]

>>19283420
Not a bad idea, anon

[Anonymous No.19283456]

>>19283452
Goethean teleology is bullshit no matter how you dress it up lmao

[Anonymous No.19283467]

>>19283456
Are you the op?
If so I am actually dreaming of a self destruction machine. At least everyone else who is can take comfort in that.

It’s silly to deny our nature tho. Have a tug on your pee pee, touch grass :)

[Anonymous No.19283480]

>>19282646
The light is acceptance.
Life sucks, move on. If you aren't inclined to be an hero, then you'll come to terms with it in time. For now, just suffer in anguish.

[Anonymous No.19283488]

>>19283456
What do you know about Goethe, OP?

[Anonymous No.19283503]

>>19283001
I had sex, realized that felt pretty good, and wanted more. It's as simple as that, save up and get a quality escort at least once if you can't get pussy the normal way.

[Anonymous No.19283505]

>>19283488
I originally posted this. He said it was Goethian
> his own "companion for life," becomes a problem of mentalities. The Ibsen marriage appears, the "higher spiritual affinity" in which both parties are "free" - free, that is, as intelligences, free from the plantlike urge of the blood to continue itself, and it becomes' possible for a Shaw to say "that unless Woman repudiates her womanliness, her duty to her husband, to her children, to society, to the law, and to everyone but herself, she cannot emancipate herself." The primary woman, the peasant woman, is mother. The whole vocation towards which she has yearned from childhood is included in that one word. But now emerges the Ibsen woman, the comrade, the heroine of a whole megalopolitan literature from Northern drama to Parisian novel. In- stead of children, she has soul-conflicts; marriage is a craft-art for the achieve- ment of ..mutual understanding." It is all the same whether the case against children is the American lady's who would not miss a season for anything, or the Parisienne's who fears that her lover would leave her, or an Ibsen hero- ine's who "belongs to herself" - they all belong to themselves and they are all unfruitful. The same fact, in conjunction with the same arguments, is to be found in the Alexandrian, in the Roman, and, as a matter of course, in every other civilized society - and conspicuously in that in which Buddha grew up.

[Anonymous No.19283521]

>>19283505
Spengler does draw from Goethe's morphology, right?

[Anonymous No.19283525]

>>19283521
Probably. I find his idea of civilisation being over in 2200 comforting.

[Anonymous No.19283532]

>>19283525
Yeah, I believe he was on to something.

[Anonymous No.19283581]

>>19283379
>To go for a more apt definition of what I’m describing
>> consciousness is the feature that makes states count as experiences in a certain sense: to be a conscious state is to be an experience. Widely (but not universally) accepted examples would include sensory states, imagery, episodic thought, and emotions of the sort we commonly enjoy.
None of these are consciousness, those things occur in specific orders over time and we experience them in succession because they are revealed to awareness (consciousness) as its objects, that awareness which knows them is not identical with those states, because awareness remains and continues perceiving other thoughts and sense-impressions while a specific thought or sense-impression is fleeting. Thoughts and sense-impressions are revealed to a knowing presence which differs from them, just like distant objects are naturally revealed to us as objects which differ from the eye that reveals its shape and color. Known changing phenomena with particular natures are never consciousness, consciousness is what the knowing of any phenomena presupposes. What you call "conscious states" are two things occurring at once, 1) the awareness which is alike in all instances revealing itself, and 2) the thought, imagery or emotion which is known or revealed by that awareness which is #1. It's hopelessly incoherent to claim that those states consisting of thoughts are themselves "conscious" instead of being revealed objects that are known by a separate consciousness.

>For instance, when you see something red, it looks somehow to you; when you hear a crash, it sounds somehow to you. Its looking to you as it does, and its sounding to you as it does are experiences in this sense.
Consciousness is not a specific experienced content, it's what knows experienced contents. In popular usage the word "experience" is often used ambiguously in a way to denote both consciousness and the content it knows, sometimes also people wrongly conflate them.

[Anonymous No.19283588]

>>19283379
>>19283581

>So more broadly we might say that how you experience your own experience—how it is “subjectively experienced”
Awareness is self-revealing, self-illuminating, It reveals itself as That which is the most immediate in any moment. There is never any moment when It is not revealing itself, this is going on forever, uninterruptedly. This why in order to fully know this awareness, one does not try to try to acquire some knowledge of some new content as an object of one's awareness, one instead has to closely study and reflect on the writings that teach you how distinguish between two things which you already know and recognize the constant presence of one of them without falsely attributing the properties of the 2nd thing to It as untrained people normally do.

>Negative language usually constitutes half of a paradox that affirms positive and negative propositions at the same time. Textual instances of negation usually follow positive statements about brahman which provide an explicit positive proposition of continuity. There is a positive assertion of an entity but the negative language strips that entity of any limitations or finite objectivity. This methodology threads the needle of indicating brahman’s presence without objectifying it. It ensures that the reader neither grasps at an object nor falls into nihilism. The negative assertions of neti neti, which follow or imply a positive assertion, parallel the other two methods. Lakṣaṇā and anvaya-vyatireka similarly depend on negation through mutual restriction, while simultaneously indicating the intrinsic nature of brahman without falling into nihilism.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/shankara/#TripProcMeanNondKnow

>I suppose I find your insistence on a ‘higher’ truth gives the impression that you don’t take into account the mind body problem
If by "mind-body problem" you are referring to the interactionist problem of Descartes, this is not a problem for Advaita Vedanta and its conception of consciousness elaborated in that post, because they view consciousness as being non-volitional, not an actor or controller, and hence It doesn't impart causal effects unto the world, and hence there is no problem arising from trying to explain how consciousness directs actions or how Its changed by the world, because It doesn't direct actions and Its not changed by anything.

>and that you are also saying that we have lost some secret wisdom. If that were the case which primitive peoples would you point to as conscious of the correct meaning?
The Upanishads talk about this and they predate both Socrates and Buddha, Chinese Taoist writings also talk about consciousness being non-dual with the Absolute. Some later Muslim thinkers like Suhrawardi also write about this. Being remote in time does not make them intellectually primitive.

[Anonymous No.19283603]

>>19282422
There's good copes, even great copes for the majority of people and they make life enjoyable. It's genuinely hard to do for me so all I have left is to cope with the lack of copes and try to argue myself to some sort of meaning of meaninglessness of meaning of meaninglessness (repeat infinitely) as a painful distraction to cope while I'm still alive. Doing this instead of kms means there must be a tiny blob of hope for a better resolution left. Everybody who makes these threads and arguments is secretly hoping that someone will have a satisfying pro-life answer to the problem.

[Anonymous No.19283661]

>>19282164
There is a Creator, and the Creator is good.

[Anonymous No.19283698]

>>19282164
There's cope, there's hope, and there's rope.
And of course, you just can stop caring, or at least try.

[Anonymous No.19283707]

>>19282203
Much like you did.

That's how life is.
>>19282060
I agree. On some points, at least.

[Anonymous No.19283716]

>>19283698
What's the hope, anon?

[Anonymous No.19283728]

>>19283603
A lot of people have arrived at these conclusions at some point, myself included. I don't know if satisfactory pro-life answer exists. Affirming life is going to require accepting a great deal of your premise. You can go beyond it.

[Anonymous No.19283735]

>>19283588
>because awareness remains
Yes but then you are still taking a stance on consciousness. By saying it remains without human effort you are a dualist because you’re saying it’s outside of us. The reframing of it as awareness just changes the subject to a more spiritual question of existence. deciding to leave consciousness (as the hard problem which is defined as mind states being a product of the subjective mind) unstudied and focus instead on what the universe does in its relationship to us just means that you reduce the physical world to secondary importance. But i believe that you are submitting to a higher power and taking the stance that if we knew consciousness it would completely destroy what truths about the real source of our unconscious (and destiny as spiritually foremost beings) and our tru selves are.

>Known changing phenomena with particular natures are never consciousness, consciousness is what the knowing of any phenomena presupposes. What you call "conscious states" are two things occurring at once,
Well this means you are saying that the phenomena of us experiencing awareness is just as phenomenal as our matter, and so you’re reducing thoughts to representations only and not ‘things in themselves’. I’m curious if you think the thing in itself is awareness, or if you think we only ever know phenomena or if unknowable noumena are achieved through DMT or meditation as a lot of idealists and dualists do.

[Anonymous No.19283820]

Bump

[Anonymous No.19283849]

>>19283661
That page is very beautiful, thank you anon. What is it from? I tried googling “stoddard Milky Way”

[Anonymous No.19283851]

>>19283588
> being non-volitional, not an actor or controller
That’s an interesting take. So essentially we are witnesses. Do you think that the hard problem is because explains the experience of red would be like explaining the universes unknowable laws?

[Anonymous No.19284007]

Bump

[Anonymous No.19284084]

>>19283716
I am but a man, so I can't tell you for certain. But I guess it can be that the cope is true (You don't know if it isn't, do you?). Idk really.
I just hope it exists.

[Anonymous No.19284091]

>>19283735
>Yes but then you are still taking a stance on consciousness.
If I had no stance on consciousness, then I would have had nothing to post in this thread
>By saying it remains without human effort you are a dualist because you’re saying it’s outside of us.
To the contrary, I'm saying that It *is* us, we are consciousness, and that the habitual identification of ourselves with the body and mind which are known by consciousness is a mistake and that the correct stance is know oneself as the non-physical consciousness that knows the body and mind.
>The reframing of it as awareness just changes the subject to a more spiritual question of existence.
So?
>deciding to leave consciousness (as the hard problem which is defined as mind states being a product of the subjective mind) unstudied and focus instead on what the universe does in its relationship to us just means that you reduce the physical world to secondary importance.
What is wrong with reducing the physical world to secondary importance if there are more important things than the physical world and what it can provide? There is no hard problem of consciousness left in Advaita but it solves or eliminates the hard problem by explaining why consciousness exists and why the mind/mental states exist as things which can be known by consciousness.
>But i believe that you are submitting to a higher power and taking the stance that if we knew consciousness it would completely destroy what truths about the real source of our unconscious (and destiny as spiritually foremost beings) and our tru selves are.
This doesn't make much sense, can you elaborate on what you mean? It's not clear what you are implying.
>I’m curious if you think the thing in itself is awareness,
I do, "Tell me, O Keshava, the knowledge of That which dwells in every heart, and which combines the fact of knowledge and the thing knowable in Itself." - Uttara Gita 1.3.
>if you think we only ever know phenomena or if unknowable noumena are achieved through DMT or meditation as a lot of idealists and dualists do.
The noumena of awareness can already be known through the process I have already described in the previous post, and which is detailed in Shankara's writings and in those of other Advaitins. This has nothing to do with meditation as is commonly envisaged and practiced in the west though, i.e. buddhist-style "mindfulness".
>>19283851
>Do you think that the hard problem is because explains the experience of red would be like explaining the universes unknowable laws?
The hard problem deals with why there is subjective experience at all when its not required for survival of the organism, and also the question of reductionist accounts not satisfactorily being able to explain and map out the material reactions that cause one to have awareness of qualia. In Advaita Vedanta, consciousness is God and the laws of physics that give rise to sense-perception and associated qualia is just the unfolding of God's energy.

[Anonymous No.19284118]

>>19282067
this goes with any discussion ever, people only react this harshly against nihilism/pessimism because of how harshly it contradicts the survival instinct/habitual illusions of others. you won't see this amount of asshurt from any leftist or Christian thread

[Anonymous No.19284184]

>>19283395
if you consider it bitching or annoying instead of just noise like any other type of opinionated discourse then it's clear it's mentally touching you and making you uncomfortable in some sort of way

[Anonymous No.19284204]

>>19282210
>Its not like when you were a teen and far enough removed to contemplate such things sanely.
you have always been as close to death as you ever were

[Anonymous No.19284233]

>>19284091
1/2
>>19284091
>If I had no stance on consciousness, then I would have had nothing to post in this thread
to clarify what I’m saying is that consciousness is being blended into an umbrella term. I don’t think the study of qualia can be compared with it’s spiritual and sometimes opposing definition of the term because religion and philosophy is still a priori truth. We know that the world is maya but not in the way we know our brain produces experiences from neuronal pathways. And esoteric consciousness needs to be made clear as incompatible. (In my opinion that’s for brevity not because one is less important)
> To the contrary, I'm saying that It *is* us, we are consciousness, and that the habitual identification of ourselves with the body and mind which are known by consciousness is a mistake and that the correct stance is know oneself as the non-physical consciousness that knows the body and mind.
Yes I was mistaken with the word dualist. A dualist simply sees mind as separate to brain. I often confuse dualism for taoism, and after remembering what I know on the practices of veda I realise it has no distinction. A Taoist can reach either monistic or dualist versions of living.
> What is wrong with reducing the physical world to secondary importance if there are more important things than the physical world and what it can provide? There is no hard problem of consciousness left in Advaita but it solves or eliminates the hard problem by explaining why consciousness exists and why the mind/mental states exist as things which can be known by consciousness.
Well I personally don’t think the physical world is maya. If advita has removed the hard problem than it is coming from an angle that by problem we imply it is simply that we can’t explain qualia. But there are issues which arise for me such as passing away into sleep, passing away into death. The point where we unconsciously control ourselves in sleep seems to be a theory that anaesthetic and unconscious (in the medical term) bodies are reflexive. But I don’t then prescribe to an idea that this removes the possibility we are fully material. Materialism doesn’t seem impossible because of conflating consciousness with a submission to ‘other worlds’ or real worlds as Nietzsche refers to. For me solving the hard problem would have the goal of creating an atomic philosophy and not the ancient wisdom which was began from the dawn of civilisation beginning with early eastern wisdom like the rig Veda c.1500–1200 BCE, then being reformulated by Continental philosophy, Kant etc.
I don’t view the revival of it as linked to its empirical truth.
but the idealist proofs can have a lot of power. Such as how Schopenhauer and Kant precluded the double slit experiment, a great reinforcement of Vedic religion. Us becoming connected to the invisible world when no one is there to observe.

[Anonymous No.19284248]

>>19281612
You are absolutely correct and that's exactly why your argument, your entire thought and that type of philosophy is utterly useless. It would be pretty good for a suicide note but nothing else. The reason of this is that all of our thoughts are a big 'delusion of grandeur of the human mind', the language is a proof of this; yes, it began as a necessity, a evolutionary necessity, all animals communicate in one way or another, but the human made something pretty special with this, we began forming a big consciousness. Every idea works by this arrangement of symbols, signs that dictate every image our minds could ever elaborate.

People that don't want to kill themselves are cowards, but much of the population is built around cowardice, the cowardice of the dead (is an instinct as you wrote in your post), and because of this cowardice your idea, that idea, falls flat. Perhaps there are words of wisdom, something to internalize, and then put the book aside and go do something else, because everyone wants to live in this world of delusion. The real black pill is not the idea of "WORLD IS MADE FROM SUFFERING" that's like saying "THE BODY IS MADE OF FLESH, THE FLESH WILL SOON DIE", yes, everyone knows that, is a truism. The real black pill is that you will never be able to leave this place, you are here forever, whether you like it or not, there is no escape from the flesh.

[Anonymous No.19284253]

>>19284233

> can already be known through the process I have already described in the previous post, and which is detailed in Shankara's writings and in those of other Advaitins. This has nothing to do with meditation
I want to find if this is a concealed hierarchy of the natural order but contradicted by the nihilism of Buddhism. You describe how we all will live for eternity (Buddhism) but you still give a hierarchical view of enlightenment knowledge vs instinctive knowledge.
Does a leaf, with its inability to study what you’ve described have less connection to awareness or will. I understand that the method is to reach a path of enlightenment. But I don’t quite know *why* these practices are supposedly leading to what you claim is higher being.
If that was the case then what was nature’s intention?
I think your theory creates further separation from a simplistic view of consciousness as opposed to uniting all of us in a ‘will to life’ (maya) or in scientific terms - the multiplication of beings in order to stay as replication machines.

[Anonymous No.19284267]

>>19281612
You are still operating on a christian worldview, why must thing have meaning to be good?

[Anonymous No.19284353]

>>19282749
Top tier cope

[Anonymous No.19284356]

>>19281612
I don't agree with Ligotti, but I am a much bigger misanthrope than him.
I know good and evil to be absolute, and mankind collectively leans towards evil. However, I am not a Gnostic who views the material realm as tainted by evil.
For example, consider how people moved Canadian Beavers from their natural habitat of Elk Island to Tierra del Fuego for the purposes of fur trade, which is dumb to begin with. Afterwards, the beavers destroyed Tierra del Fuego's virgin forests and this led to ecological calamities. The reality is that they wouldn't have been there in the first place if it weren't for the hubris of human beings. Most human beings are the true invasive species, literal creatures of Ahriman, who increase the destruction and suffering on this world for their own greed. There are many examples of this problem from gray squirrels displacing native red squirrels in UK to cats threatening bird biodiversity. Granted, it is none of the faults of the animals themselves except for humanity, but mankind chooses to scapegoat these animals as being "invasive" when, in reality, it is man himself that is fundamentally invasive for causing and perpetuating these problems. Mankind's psyche will never evolve.
One can write volumes upon volumes of all the cruel things man has done to this world and itself. In fact, many edgelords on 4chan would probably smirk at the thought of it. Consider, for example, how much of the old-growth forests, such as the red trees in USA, were destroyed. Old-growth forests are immensely important in an ecological sense. Then we have ocean acidification and we could go on and on...
Industrial society is cancer and was a mistake. Mankind, itself, has something intrinsically wrong with its self-consciousness that led to this predicament. Over 90% of mankind are children of Ahriman. This is also why all Abrahamic religions are absolute filth. If someone like Empedocles were worshiped instead of that dumb, filthy Jew, a lot of these problems could at the very least be mitigated.
Mankind creates much of its own problems.
Likewise, this is why I won't have children. I have no convincing arguments for antinatalism, but that doesn't stop me from being child free myself. I would have much preferred being a happy raven than a human being having to put up with the vast majority of idiots.
This massively interconnected and industrialized globalized world will one day horribly crash. I simply hope not in my lifetime since I am not prepared for it.

[Anonymous No.19284380]

>>19284353
wow is that real?

[Anonymous No.19284508]

have sex

[Anonymous No.19284596]

>>19282114
Why not? It seems to be a fairly logical answer as to what happens after death. There's either nothing or there's something. Once you become nothing, there's another thing in the universe that needs to become something, are you going to escape this need and just remain nothing for eternity? Probably not.

[Anonymous No.19284618]

These threads never go anywhere because of LE KILL YOURSELF retards. It's a shame. Better to just read about it desu.

[Anonymous No.19284635]

Ligotti is right, but so what? I like money, sunshine, puppies and fucking. I'm physically healthy and full of happy hormones so most of the time I ignore Ligotti. Have his book on my shelf though.

[Anonymous No.19284652]

Didn't read don't care. Blow it out your ass faggot
fpbp checked keked /thread

[Anonymous No.19284670]

>>19284596
How to die? I don’t like pain :/
Shall I punch myself

[Anonymous No.19284685]

Overpopulation can explain pretty much every emotional problem

[Anonymous No.19284716]

>>19283206
The thread ends here. As schopenhauer said, suicide is not the result of a lack of a will-to-life, but the demands of one's will-to-life unfulfilled.

[Anonymous No.19284759]

>>19283206
>psychology as an individual
Don’t insult psychology by even attempting to read someone’s psyche on an image board

[Anonymous No.19284781]

>>19281612
LO. IF YOU WILL IT, THERE IS NO DREAM.

[Anonymous No.19284794]

>>19281612
>Cope, even if he does he is an absolute sadist for designing nature as such an absolute bloody slaughterhouse and granting us zero clear justification or reasons for our perilous and despairing existence
Why would God owe us a justification for the things he does? If he really is all knowing, all powerful and all present and perfect in all ways then it would be us that are wrong for questioning him. This view of God basically requires God to not be more of a demigod than an actual God.

[Anonymous No.19284803]

>>19284794
I mean for him to be a demigod rather than God.

[Anonymous No.19284829]

>>19284794
You add nothing to this conversation. An archetypal socialist brainlet.. the exact reason why Islam means submission. It requires as little need for truth as pure individualism requires only fear and capitalist selfishness.

[Anonymous No.19284862]

>>19284356
>It's another 'let's blame joos and christians for everything' episode
Yeah, bro because non 'abrahamic' societies never industrialized or committed atrocities. If you're going to go down this retarded line of reasoning then at least be consistent and condemn all religions since literally ever society does the things you have a problem with. If you would stop gargling cock for a few seconds you might have the time to consider that maybe the world is a little bit more complicated than 'joos bad' and that people have been killing, raping, stealing and destroying since before anyone even knew what an 'Abraham' was.

[Anonymous No.19284878]

>>19284829
You have worms eating your brain and are beyond hope if you think any of this nonsense you just spat at me means anything or is clever in any way. Your diction is so terrible it makes me wonder if you've read a book in the last decade.

[Anonymous No.19284899]

Have sex.
Pic unrelated. Do not have sex with her.

[Anonymous No.19284906]

>>19281612
>It's a fucking travesty that we continue this absolutely disgusting horrorshow instead of working towards extinction, all justifications are pure cope
If we kill our selves we will just pop up again somewhere along endless time and have to do the dark ages all over again.

[Anonymous No.19285008]

>>19282882
Yes, people on 4chan are retarded edgy children.

[Anonymous No.19285013]

>>19281612
Assumption that suffering is bad because it feels bad in the moment it happens to you. Assumption death is bad because it destroys and nothing comes after it.
You are just afraid of living and dying. You combine rational meaningless with emotional pain. Those two dont go together. Either come from a rational point of view and say life is meaningless. Or from an emotional point of view that you dont like the suffering involved.
I wouldnt call you a coward, but at the present you let fears dictate your life. I will see my life till the end and try to find meaning, and take on the suffering. I am not afraid of life and death.

[Anonymous No.19285041]

>>19285013
>Are you a starving family of pajeets. Just le be yourself.
>living in fear of a genocide.. just le smile and face your fears.
The absolute state of the archetypal American College educated soulless masses. Raised only to see simple solutions and to think they’re making intellectual claims.

[Anonymous No.19285044]

>>19284906
Just admit only real men kill themselves.

[Anonymous No.19285045]

>>19284829
>>19285041
>'maybe if I keep using the word archetypal in my posts people will think I'm smart and correct'
>unironically insecure about not being college educated
>le bad things happen so everything is bad
bro, please just stop

[Anonymous No.19285162]

>>19285045
I am struggling to think what any human could possibly look like to match the avatar of your attitude. You aren’t an SJW otherwise you’d be on Reddit, you aren’t a /pol/tard so you don’t want to be full right wing. So that leaves only one option.. you tell people to be happy when you’re feeling righteous indignant. Think that through. You aren’t telling people to improve themselves when they ask you advice, you’re actively looking to bring down people who are disagreeing with you, and worse than that you’re seeking out the ones who have decided they want to be more or less left alone and they will be content just posting occasional pessimist thoughts. Why do you think everyone gets pissed when the optimists come along and act like a big brother. Because it’s pathetic, it’s sneaky, it’s worse than /pol/.
You’re unwanted by beta men and by right wing men, you’re a peacekeeping middle of the road, unaligned wolf. Take that however you want.

[Anonymous No.19285175]

>>19285041
Yes terrible what we inflict upon other people. Thats why we are slowly learning to eradicate extreme poverty and genocide. But you fear these things not for the pajeet or the people in the genocides themselves. Otherwise you would do something for them. Instead you just fear a situation in which you are in one of them. You are afraid because you can see that you could have been born in one of those circumstances. Your point of view is that of a purely egoistic edgy early-20s coward. Everything we have of value is built out of suffering. And the simplest dumbest solution of all is to just neck ourselves.

[Anonymous No.19285213]

>>19285175
Well at least we both agree suffering is a fact. But what does that have to do with the topic of pessimism? You’ve come here to criticise a view because you barely skimmed a Wikipedia article on Ligotti, or something along those lines.
> And the simplest dumbest solution of all is to just neck ourselves
Well it’s hard to keep up with what critics are saying. I assumed you believed pessimists are coward and would offer the ‘can’t be a pessimist unless you want to die’
> You are afraid because you can see that you could have been born in one of those circumstances
No my point is that it’s always the optimists doing the murdering. I grew up in England where it’s technologically advanced and it’s always the ones who have this moral high ground. It’s the disappointed optimists who turn into the miserable depressed leeches, like when my busiest friend stops and gets bored etc.. For example it’s the social influencer or the family man. They have his big plan to carry out the work their genealogy requires of them and never stop to question it. All of the things Schopenhauer talks about when he says that struggle leads to another struggle in order to lead to the next struggle.

In conclusion, stick to talking about well developed pessimistic philosophy and whether you have an actual criticism. Talk about the fag Nietzsche and how he was able to distort the Greeks.

[Anonymous No.19285315]

>>19284759
Psychology should be insulted in its current state.

[Anonymous No.19285326]

>>19284759
modern psychology is a fucking joke

[Anonymous No.19285373]

>>19285315
>>19285326
Well someone’s ramblings is just brain dumps. Anonymity on 4chan is a wonderful thing but none of us have a clue who we’re responding to.
Taking to ourselves?

[Anonymous No.19285433]

>>19284899
>natalist thinks that all problems in the world are solved by, what else, procreation

[Anonymous No.19285446]

>>19281612
no use crying over spilled milk

[Anonymous No.19285455]

>>19285213
>But what does that have to do with the topic of pessimism?
who talked about pessimism? I certainly didn't.
>>19285213
>‘can’t be a pessimist unless you want to die’
No I consider me a pessimist myself, I hate a lot of people and I see more bad than good around me. But I try to do something about it with myself and the few others that I do like.
>>19285213
>No my point is that it’s always the optimists doing the murdering.
Yes I am more careful around people who only see good around them. But the people you are talking about aren't optimists. They are identityless people who have no character, morphing into the first idea that they hear on a ted talk or in a comment section on the front page of a social media site.

[Anonymous No.19285470]

>>19282454
Funny how OP never touches upon posts that completely blow him out of the water

[Anonymous No.19285511]

imagine going on like that. american lit is really unbecoming.

"When that ineffable compound of depression, sadness (these two are not the same), anxiety, self-hatred, sense of failure and fear for the future begins to steal over you, start telling yourself that what you have is a hangover. You are not sickening for anything, you have not suffered a minor brain lesion, you are not all that bad at your job, your family and friends are not leagued in a conspiracy of barely maintained silence about what a shit you are, you have not come at last to see life as it really is and there is no use crying over spilt milk." - Kingsley Amis

[Anonymous No.19285515]

>>19285470
Believing the world is potentially friendly works for people who are in that environment.

I am not OP but I agree antinatalists are a product of an environment where having children can be seen as optional. Most people would think it’s dumb and a little delinquent. But I suppose like vegans, they are a group of soft and fragile snowflakes the world needs in this ecosystem.

[Anonymous No.19285811]

Embedded in these arguments is always the premise that humans have transcendent cognitive faculties that far surpass those of any other organism to have ever existed anywhere. Unfortunately, these abilities give us greater insight into the ultimate reality that is human suffering.

This is foolish, though. Reality is created by the mind. The Buddhist conclusion to this premise is that human consciousness should be directed toward understanding the nature of the reality, the non-existence of the self, and the nature of suffering as caused by worldly attachment. Your entire argument is that “durrr nothing is real, nothing has any meaning” and yet, for some reason, suffering is arbitrarily admitted as the only transcendent, meaningful quality of human experience despite it also having no basis in material reality. It’s an illusion created by consciousness in the same way as the positive experiences you dismiss.

You’re right that free will doesn’t exist. Humans continue to and must survive because we’re organisms. Consciousness demands rational explanations for activities that are ultimately pre-rational, and so we get God, absurdism, etc. Anti-natalist philosophical pessimism is also a cope, though. That you would look out into the amorphous, meaningless blob of subatomic particles drifting through space and see suffering as some kind of transcendent reality is revealing, and it’s far dumber than seeing God because it’s contrary to the biological imperatives of our species. It takes a significant degree of scientific illiteracy to fail to appreciate how miraculous consciousness is, and it’s pure laziness, cope, and loser mentality to decide that it ought not be applied to understanding the nature of its reality for its brief existence.

[Anonymous No.19285840]

>>19283503
This is fucking retarded. How does sex feeling good translate to wanting to have kids? 20 minutes of pleasure and a few seconds of bliss are enough to convince you that life is worth living after all? What an ape.

[Anonymous No.19285862]

>>19285840
Yeah, refuted by post-nut depression

[Anonymous No.19285876]

>>19281612
Who hurt you?

[Anonymous No.19285989]

Bump

[Anonymous No.19285995]

>>19284353
Yeah, it's my cope of choice to believe everyone is deluded (I'm an exception because I see the terrible truth)

[Anonymous No.19286031]

>>19284248

>You are here forever

Explain why roping wouldn't solve the problem?

[Anonymous No.19286049]

>>19281612
What do I read to remove this from my mind? Someone help

[Anonymous No.19286102]

>>19285213
>Well at least we both agree suffering is a fact
>Suffering is a fact

Lol it’s not. One of the great challenges for medical science has been trying to quantify something that only exists in subjective human experience. You can’t measure or directly observe it. You can infer its existence indirectly from the behavior of an organism or maybe by looking at neural activity, but this tells us nothing about the nature or experience of suffering.

Why is suffering the only element of conscious human experience that you consider to be “a fact”? Why is it the only one that matters to you?

[Anonymous No.19286304]

>>19284184
not the anon you were responding to, but I just find it really sad. I hope you find meaning in life and start feeling better.

[Anonymous No.19286337]

>>19281612
I wish he never had written this stupid "philosophy" book because now no one cares about his fantastic horror fiction in lieu of this bullshit

[Anonymous No.19286340]

He's wrong.

>Rich
Life is literally good.
>Poor
Life is terrible.

Lenin figured this out 1000 years ago.

[Anonymous No.19286354]

>>19284862
You have poor reading comprehension and respond like a bot.

[Anonymous No.19286361]

>>19286340
He's just seriously mentally ill and so are his defenders on here. That's literally all there is to philosophical pessimism. It's literally impossible to be psychologically normal and a pessimist/nihilist in the first world

[Anonymous No.19286382]

Ligotti isn't a materialist you dumb fucking retards, I can say for sure 90% of fags ITT haven't read the book.

>Like Segal’s vastness, Schopenhauer’s Will has the same purpose in mind for human beings—to use our “circuitries” to acquire some kind of knowledge of its mindless self. For Schopenhauer, though, the self-seeking Will does not feel good to human beings except during moments when we temporarily satisfy its universal ravening as it emerges within us. Why the vastness or the Will should want to use us in this way is a mystery. Both of these non-dualistic meta-realities do serve the purpose of making sense of human life in their own way. But whether they make us feel good does not seem to matter to either of them. We are just vehicles; they are the drivers. And wherever we are going, as Segal and Schopenhauer have assured us, along with every other individual whose consciousness has been opened to the vastness by whatever name or nature, we must keep in mind that we are not what we think we are. Taking things a step further, Professor Nobody would teach us that neither is our world what we think it is, lecturing us with a flamboyant dispassion on the omnipresence of the infernal in “The Eyes That Never Blink.”

>Mist on a lake, fog in thick woods, a golden light shining on wet stones—such sights make it all very easy. Something lives in the lake, rustles through the woods, inhabits the stones or the earth beneath them. Whatever it may be, this something lies just out of sight, but not out of vision for the eyes that never blink. In the right surroundings our entire being is made of eyes that dilate to witness the haunting of the universe. But really, do the right surroundings have to be so obvious in their spectral atmosphere?
>Take a cramped waiting room, for instance. Everything there seems so well-anchored in normalcy. Others around you talk ever so quietly; the old clock on the wall is sweeping aside the seconds with its thin red finger; the window blinds deliver slices of light from the outside world and shuffle them with shadows. Yet at any time and in any place, our bunkers of banality may begin to rumble. You see, even in a stronghold of our fellow beings we may be subject to abnormal fears that would land us in an asylum if we voiced them to another. Did we just feel some presence that does not belong among us? Do our eyes see something in a corner of that room in which we wait for we know not what?
>Just a little doubt slipped into the mind, a little trickle of suspicion in the bloodstream, and all those eyes of ours, one by one, open up to the world and see its horror. Then: no belief or body of laws will guard you; no friend, no counselor, no appointed personage will save you; no locked door will protect you; no private office will hide you. Not even the solar brilliance of a summer day will harbor you from horror. For horror eats the light and digests it into darkness.

The Conspiracy Against the Human Race

[Anonymous No.19286439]

>>19281612
No, you just lack imagination

[Anonymous No.19286486]

>>19281612
>granting us zero clear justification or reasons for our perilous and despairing existence
never read the Bible, have you?

[Anonymous No.19286520]

>>19286361
It's true.

>Given a diseased constitution and a neurotic mind, a life of empty leisure and gloomy ennui, and there emerges the proper physiology for Schopenhauer's philosophy.

-Will Durant on philosophical pessimism

[Anonymous No.19286531]

>>19286382
This is poetry, not an actual argument.

[Anonymous No.19286535]

>>19286102
Well if suffering isn’t a fact we can call it a war between individuals.
Most people who are more extroverted or opinionated and like to make a lot of their ideals and opinions known off of the internet - for example when anon wants to grow up, part 1 - be a child gain new knowledge about language, physical walking part 2 - find some friends while at school, learn subjects part 3 - become an adult and find your purpose while also thinking of a deep life goal…
Lots of the people who talk of these experiences are since the winter of man (to paraphrase Spengler) obsessed with saying how.. ‘the world is a social construct this, society is moving to this, that, heading towards new ways of production, connecting in communities’.

Everyone seems to say about how we’re all in some great A->B linear path, whether on the individual or societal level.

But looking at consciousness as a mistake is a little bit more honest. It’s saying.. no it has nothing to do with society but just the very nature of things. We’re not aware of why conscious states exist, because we’re constantly in competition to climb the corporate/emotional/social media ladders.
And if anything’s survived from when humans evolved, it’s not an ability to form community or create miraculous advances.. it’s (regardless of political leanings) that no matter what we’re still the exact same apes doing the exact same fighting. We’re destined to be either dependent on the world and people inside the world, as evidenced by how much the odds are stacked from the start, even a 2 month baby is up against so much. Will the parent actually bond? Will they even stay with their biological parents in the first place. It seems to me that goals are another word for burden. Nothing exists without striving.

[Anonymous No.19286550]

>>19286535
2
Or if we aren’t dependent on people we’re the primitive man dependent on his own body trying to survive while being born half dead. We are always one step from death, we head forwards not backwards into death.

[Anonymous No.19286613]

>>19286531
Read The World as Will and Representation for a "proper" philosophical argument for Schopenhauer's non-dualistic, mysterious Will. Nonetheless that essay proves that Ligotti isn't a materialist which most of retards are misrepresenting him by calling him a new atheist type materialist.

[Anonymous No.19286710]

>>19285162
This post reeks of virgin rage

[Anonymous No.19286792]

>>19286535
Conflict exists in the world, sure. It's unclear how this is an argument philosophical pessimism, though. Your examples are also inconsistent with most human experience. Most normal people see parenting, for example, as a joy rather than a burden. If this weren't the case, nobody would bother raising kids, or we would have already deputized some government agency to do it for us.

Consciousness is an evolutionary accident, but it should be self-evident why it flourished and conquered the planet. The human brain's ability to perceive patterns and narratives where there are none (e.g., pursuing a goal, the grand theories of history you alluded to) is advantageous to its survival. If you read accounts from Auschwitz or the Soviet gulag system, you'll find that the people who survived those institutions did so by finding some sort of meaning in their suffering or imagining something waiting on the other side.

These things can be considered "copes and delusions" like OP said, sure, but they're no less real than anything else. The existence of chairs is also a cope and delusion: there's just a blob of subatomic particles arranged in a certain formation in front of us, refracting light into our crude sensory organs and only becoming a chair upon contact with human consciousness.

At birth, we're given a set of biological imperatives, namely survival. There are no good arguments for the validity of these imperatives. We just know them to be true. If we accept that the brain's ability to generate "copes and delusions" is a survival mechanism, then the existential vacuum that anons in here are arguing in favor of constitutes a sickness in the same way that cancer does. There are no good arguments for why illness is bad and health is good. Instead, I just know these things as an organism.

[Anonymous No.19286849]

>>19282164
Read Cioran,

>>19282144
>the gift of life
I don't think I have felt truly happy in over 15 years. I'm glad that you don't suffer anon but your experience doesn't and cannot match up to everyone elses. Some people are given a life that is not bearable and can't be viewed as a gift.

[Anonymous No.19286858]

>>19282335
>so long as you fulfil your base preprogrammed animal desire to breed you will be happy

yikes anon

[Anonymous No.19287355]

>>19284596
>are you going to escape this need and just remain nothing for eternity? Probably not.
Exactly. I don't see how its possible. Not with all that time, space, and energy. I just want to know if it will ever be "me," or just a double.

Maybe "me" does die here. There's no way to know until, sadly.

[Anonymous No.19287364]

>>19281612
>writing all of this instead of pulling the trigger
pussy

[Anonymous No.19287371]

>>19285840
>How does sex feeling good translate to wanting to have kids
Well, it feels good to encourage reproduction, but that's not what you were responding to.
More specifically, I want to have kids to refute my antinatalism in the most visceral way possible. Make my own flesh robots and hope they provide meaning.

[Anonymous No.19287380]

>>19287371
Then settle no less than at least a dozen.

[Anonymous No.19287388]

>>19287380
I will produce until my sword fails me.

[Anonymous No.19287426]

>>19283849
John L. Stoddard, Rebuilding a Lost Faith

[Anonymous No.19287573]

>>19286858
>fulfil your base preprogrammed animal desire to breed you will be happy

I'm not talking about excessive amounts of sex. I'm talking about experiencing success as an animal, which we all are. There's nothing more to life

[Anonymous No.19287574]

>>19281685
Ecclesiastes is more "optimistic" towards the end.

[Anonymous No.19287594]

>>19282114
Do you know how the universe works? Well congratulations then.

[Anonymous No.19287657]

*ahem*
I think le "just kill yourself" argument is one of the most retarded take one can make.
>leaves

[Anonymous No.19287671]

>>19281612
>he forgets to mention ego
Watch as i conquer this horror show and make it my own. Your screaming and coping is music for my work but im merciful and will help you if we encounter

[Anonymous No.19287677]

AAAAHHHHH FUCK I HATE IT HERE WTF IS GOING ON IM SUFFERING MAKE IT STOP BUT ALSO I KIND OF LIKE IT WHO CONDEMMED ME TO THIS MISERY AND WHY PLEASE I NEED TO KNOW WHY

[Anonymous No.19287703]

>>19287573
More like suckcess

[Anonymous No.19288535]

>>19285811
this is just over-intellectualizing the concept of suffering. true suffering goes beyond conceptualizing and is utterly primal and experiential. I'm a pessimist but I know it's because I was given a bad hand in life and a constitution and overbearing consciousness unable to deal with trauma and that those who were lucky enough to have a sound development of their psyche and to not have to deal with real tragedy in their lives will and probably should dismiss the philosophy. there's a few decent arguments here but it's mostly white suburbanites who have never truly suffered in their lives spouting either edgy, romantic, or normalfag psychiatric nonsense. those without the hedonic happenstance cannot accept the "goodness" of God or try to affirm life when there's nothing worth fighting for for them. it's fate really.

[Anonymous No.19288552]

>>19288535
not to mention just general emotional sensitivity

[Anonymous No.19288713]

>>19288535
>>19288552
I, too, am a pussy.
No, really.

[Anonymous No.19288728]

>>19287573
>I'm talking about experiencing success as an animal
What about those that aren't destined to succeed?

[Anonymous No.19290057]

>>19283206
this

living a life that isn't a top tier one will make anyone think life isnt worth living

[Anonymous No.19290339]

>>19288535
These are the feels I come here for.
It’s impossible to put pain into words. Only some of us are strong enough to try.. and you did a good try.

[Anonymous No.19290466]

>>19281612
It wasn't an accident dipshit, you weren't plucked from some cosmic void and dropped onto Earth at random, you're here because two people made a decision to put you here in in a specific time and place, to inherit the works of those who came before just as they did. Your job and purpose is to leave the place at least as good as you found it, but hopefully better, for those who'll come after our stupid asses and maybe contribute to their number. Its really easy.

[Anonymous No.19290490]

>>19281612
god being a sadist seems worse. even death wont let you escape him.

[Anonymous No.19290501]

>>19281612
Ahh the perfect discussion to embark upon as I set my alarm for my 8-5 wagie time

[Anonymous No.19290509]

pessimists make the mistake of thinking that normal people don't understand the world is full of evil shit. but they do, they just don't care enough to be stunted by it. sometimes this means they are sadists, sometimes it means they are willfully blind optimists who prefer to trudge on anyway, but god damn if being a fat reddit faggot who looks like a lesbian writing doomposts isn't a thousand times worse. and this is before you get into ligotti's politics, because he calls himself a socialist despite all this whining lol.

[Anonymous No.19290517]

>>19290466
Additionally, as for where we go after our time is up you better hope there's some benevolent entity who'll look after your ass and given we can't know you may well as well choose to believe that and act accordingly. Regardless you might as well be as nice as you can be to everyone else on this ride with you in your time. Yes it's dreadful and horrifying, we get it. Everyone gets it, you don't need to go inflicting your misery on other people.

The "kill yourself" argument isn't retarded, if you genuinely believe the alternative to being here is better there's nothing stopping you leaving, and if not then stop contributing to human misery and try to make someone feel better about it all. We'll all be dead soon enough anyway.

[Anonymous No.19291321]

>>19281612
All that shit only matters to people that don’t get laid lmao

[Anonymous No.19291334]

>>19290517
>just tell people to die if they don’t agree
Really secure and strong belief system if you think that every fag who disagrees needs to die so you don’t have to argue to defend your belief.

[Anonymous No.19291367]

>>19290501
>not shitposting in your wagie work time
you people must be oppressed and conspired against DESU

[Anonymous No.19291385]

>>19281612
Actually the only bad part of living is the existence of niggers

[Anonymous No.19291392]

>>19281612
>everything sucks so we should just kill ourselves collectively
you first desu

>>19281633
>we don't have free will
>even though it's objectively true that some people are able to overcome their self-preservation instinct, the single strongest of all material drives

are you a troll or just legitimately retarded?

[Anonymous No.19291399]

What a basedboy take. Yea if you are a materialist this is true, btw it's completely illogical.

[Anonymous No.19291436]

>>19282053
long for it? no, i accept it as a consequence of my having a complex physical body. i want to die, in time, because it is impossible to know what becomes of consciousness at the dissolution of the body that supports it in the manner that we understand, but until that time I wish to experience what this life has to offer, even if there is suffering in the bargain
>>19282164
if nothing has meaning and all is a festering march towards oblivion, then why fear it? you have peered beyond the veil, you have seen the brick wall at the back of the stage. alpha is omega, all is nothing. all that can exist, then, is what you do with that knowledge.
since all is formless foam, existence has the meaning which you impose on it, and wallowing in your despair is only wasted time. it is the choice to die before death, the thousand deaths of caesar's coward. will you stand and fight, like a man? or lie down and die?

[Anonymous No.19291447]

>>19291334
>but you don't care about meeeee
no, faggot, it's the logical conclusion to your belief system
i don't believe existence isn't worth living through, you do, supposedly
yet you go on living. curious. it's hypocrisy of the highest order.

[Anonymous No.19291729]

>>19281612
Tell me, what's so terrible about your existence? Why are you not pleased when you, right now, could go outside, dig a hole in the ground, eat some berries, shit around, sleep on a tree and live about? Everything terrible about human existence is either a byproduct of your modernist mentality or an existential constant, in which case it is a non-issue as all other humans for thousands of years have survived them and continue to survive.

[Anonymous No.19291739]

>>19291447
Logical fallacy. I genuinely feel for the brainlet who doesnt have time or attention to investigate.

[Anonymous No.19291751]

>>19291729
>modernist mentality
Retard see >>19281685

[Anonymous No.19291765]

>>19290057
Indeed, but the underlying problem is what constitutes "top tier". If your top tier is a modernist babylon byproduct, getting money and fucking bitches, you are bound to be a sad faggot, because there will always be babylonians with more money and more bitches. If your top tier is living as a rummaging dog living in the bliss of eating scraps and sleeping under some shade tree, then you might have better chances of enjoy life - no, not better chance, almost SURE chances.

[Anonymous No.19291775]

>>19291751
All I see is that whiny permateenagers have existed forever. Must be the cold climate shrinking their brains and balls.

[Anonymous No.19291781]

MALIGNANTLY

[Anonymous No.19291783]

>>19291775
Cope harder

[Anonymous No.19291788]

>>19291783
Isn't your unpaid lunch time over? Back to the feudal cage, now.

[Anonymous No.19291807]

>>19291765
can confirm

[Anonymous No.19291815]

>>19291765
If you’re in prison those odds drop

[Anonymous No.19291820]

>>19291815
I guess, but you can still crack your head open on the wall and fuck off

[Anonymous No.19291860]

[Anonymous No.19291867]

>>19291788
Sorry, I am a postmodern aristocrat aka a NEET. I don't see any point in contributing any towards humanity due my tragic sense of life. Now you can stop your projection.

[Anonymous No.19291885]

>>19291867
And yet you subsist on handouts from the society you claim to despise so. You're no aristocrat of the soul unless you live a hand-to-mouth, day-to-day existence wild and free in the streets, like old Diogenes or a stray dog.

[Anonymous No.19291903]

>>19291885
I don't care about your categories. Life is a contradiction and I am not interested in solving the puzzle even if there is redemption.

[Anonymous No.19291918]

>>19286361
Incidentally the 3rd world is way less nihilist. Basically the people who suffer(or at least lack luxuries the most) most are the least anti-natalist.

How does subjective experience 1st world trash like OP explain this?

[Anonymous No.19291945]

>>19291918
I am from 3rd world and people here are so much stuck into whatever their narrow world view allows them to think because for them there is only survival and no time for prolonged contemplation to think about massive philosophical questions. And here communities are traditional and very tiny population lives outside of community system so if you don't conform to community's status quo even if you change cities then you will be labelled as an outsider, a heretic. There is a lot of suffering but no time for meta cognitive endeavours or critical thinking. Contemplative thinking is labelled an abnormality so what you can expect from these people?

[Anonymous No.19291956]

>>19281612
The only problem with antinatalism is that it is impractical and all intelectual arguments of every pretentious college professor, every pessimistic writer, every bitter anon no matter how true they seem and how consistent with premises of said philosophical view are going to be refuted by a practical act. A simple act of reproduction that can be performed by union of almost any two retards. There exist contradictions in your arguments that can't be ignored, first of all you can't at the same time be an adherent of determinism and voluntary rationalism/metaphysical libertarianism of any kind. You need to understand that it's impossible to explain even the basics of antinatalism to certain amounts of people, and just like basic algebra problem or simple puzzle they would find it incomprehensible and so unconvinced wouldn't even try to accept the lifestyle you propose. So, what's the alternative? You cannot logically dissuade a bulky downie from molesting his caretaker but you can always beat him with a stick and scare him with sky daddy's wrath to ensure submission. So, the answer. Enforcement. By who? You? Me? No, powerful people, institutions such as governments. And if you were to expect their involvement we have another contradiction. You want to ask people who are at best pragmatists, at worst sadists but above all greedy bastards to give up their fortunes and their own social standing. Why would those people help with your cause? They thrive because of suffering, misery and hard work of the averege and bellow, sure they may give some money to charity to feel better about themselves but they don't want any actual change of status quo when they are on the top. The rulers can't be angels and devils at the same time. And all of them would have to agree with you because as it stands today having a child is universally a: "basic human right" that only a "mad tyrant" could try to prohibit. So now when it comes to general population your argument fails for yet another contradiction, you said that moral realism and absolutism don't exist yet you want people to act "good"/be melioristic. How the mediocre differ from elite? Are they better people? On average maybe less psychopathic, narcissistic and power hungry, but they are also weaker, less healthy, less wealthy, dumber and uglier so in short, less competent and more desperate. But are they any less hedonistic (in a broad sense)? No, everyone is hedonistic, seeks satisfaction and validation(at least internally) and for many that's enough of a justification, alongside domination(ruling over helpless child), fulfillment, feelings of safety for the future etc. and if the masses are not just selfish but also two faced and insincere why would they follow your beliefs by proxy? You won't convert any psychopathic nihilist, religious schizophrenic, simplistic moron, strinerist pedophile or conformist coward to your side with your rationality.
Cont.

[Anonymous No.19291989]

>>19291945
Pretty sure your country has an intellectual elite who serve the government in its propaganda and narrative making. Those "smart" intellectuals found a purpose in ruling, which is basically a top-tier reason to live and not kill yourself. I am imagining something like Turkey or India here(or SEA). If you are from South America I don't have much knowledge on your sociology to say the same example.

[Anonymous No.19292010]

>>19291956
>Cont
All in all, I think you hold humanity in too high regard. Just accept the fate of a mopey growler with overgrown prefrontal cortex, antinatalism existed as long as society itself and even if I agree with its moral paradigms I'm not deluding myself into thinking that it will become anything more than a niche view for outsiders, impotents and old people who have way too much time time on their hands.

[Anonymous No.19292349]

>>19291739
>i claimed you engaged in a logical fallacy and laid an ad hominem at your feet
>that means im smarter
if all is suffering, and it is so very burdensome, then what is the logic in continuing to suffer if you're going to be aggrieved by it, when the option to terminate your suffering exists?

[Anonymous No.19292385]

>>19291334
You're the on arguing you should be dead, not me. Read both posts for what I'm telling you, you should do. You're the one saying death is better than existence but you haven't followed up, so you don't actually believe that.

[Anonymous No.19292414]

>>19292349
>the option to terminate your suffering exists?
I don't believe it does.

[Anonymous No.19292442]

>modern philosophy boils down to whether you think life is good or bad
>plenty of ink is spilled, but both sides have absolute conviction
>the midwit side (nay) for which there is literally no basis other than emotion, is far more popular
>thinkers at all levels participate in a pleblic discourse centered around "I don't WANT to be frail and stupid!"
This is how civilizations collapse. They talk themselves out of existence. Anyone who confuses fantasies with reality should be kicked out in the cold for a few days.

[Anonymous No.19292721]

>>19292442
>>the midwit side (nay) for which there is literally no basis other than emotion, is far more popular
You're talking about the optimist side right?

>>thinkers at all levels participate in a pleblic discourse centered around "I don't WANT to be frail and stupid!"
???? What the fuck do you mean?

[Anonymous No.19292743]

>>19292442
only a very few take philosophy seriously nowadays, normies are far more interested in pop science and self help

[Anonymous No.19293014]

>>19292721
midwit