/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18858591]

>forgive them father, for they know not what they do
What did (He) mean by this?

[Anonymous No.18858604]

>>18858591
pray to Him to give you clarity instead of asking weasels lurking in this abyss

[Anonymous No.18858622]

>>18858604
I am a weasel also, or perhaps a mongoose. Is he asking God to forgive even his crucifiers and nonbelievers? Because they dont understand what they're doing? This seems highly contrary to most christian teachings about salvation

[Anonymous No.18858680]

>>18858591
He didn’t say it, that verse is not in the bible

[Anonymous No.18858692]

>>18858591
they are not aware they are participating in mimetic violence
>>18858680
Luke 23:34

[Anonymous No.18858695]

>>18858680
It's in Luke 23:34
https://biblehub.com/luke/23-34.htm

[Anonymous No.18858697]

>>18858692
>Luke 23:34
Like I said, that verse is not in the bible, it isn’t in any of the gospels besides Luke and it is missing from the earliest manuscripts of Luke.

[Anonymous No.18858702]

>>18858697
>it is missing from the earliest manuscripts of Luke
Proofs?

[Anonymous No.18858708]

>>18858702
Anon, he is trolling.

[Anonymous No.18858719]

>>18858591
Jesus was talking about forgiving the Roman soldiers, not the jews. The jews knew what they were doing.

[Anonymous No.18858728]

>>18858702
It’s missing from P75, the sahidic and bohairic, codex vaticanus, to name a few.

[Anonymous No.18858733]

>>18858728
Also it was in the siniaticus but was placed in brackets for being dubious by an early editor

[Anonymous No.18858801]

>>18858728
The vast majority (95%) of Luke manuscripts have Luke 23:34 in them. Furthermore, Saint Ignatius cites Luke 23:34 in chapter 10 of his epistle to the Ephesians, written in the second century. It's also referenced by Saint Irenaeus chapter 18 of "Against Heresies Book 3" among others.

[Anonymous No.18858833]

>>18858801
>Saint Ignatius cites Luke 23:34 in chapter 10 of his epistle to the Ephesians
Why do you lie?
> The vast majority (95%) of Luke manuscripts have Luke 23:34 in them.
Yet absent from the earliest, the ones I cited.
> It's also referenced by Saint Irenaeus chapter 18 of "Against Heresies Book 3" among others.
Probably where the interpolation comes from then. Irenaeus has made mistakes before, this is the same guy who said Jesus was 50 years old at the time of his death.

[Anonymous No.18858877]

>>18858708
No, he is right, the passage is spurious, just like the ending of Mark.

[Anonymous No.18858900]

>>18858833
>Why do you lie?
You needed to look at the paragraph below
> Yet absent from the earliest, the ones I cited
The date of P75 is based on the style of handwriting, which would date it to the late second century or the early third century. This is all irrelevant because two patristic authors both cite this verse in their works.
>Irenaeus has made mistakes before
I have no idea why you think this defense is relevant. I'm sure Irenaeus has made mistakes before, but this is completely irrelevant from his citation of Luke 23:34. Irenaeus could have been a flaming heretic who thought Jesus was a Martian but he still cites the verse in question decades before P75 or P76 were copied. Also worthy of consideration is the citation within the Book of Acts. Saint Stephen in Acts 7:60 says "Lord, do not charge them with this sin" before his death by stoning.

[Anonymous No.18858927]

It’s actually mind boggling to me to learn that the Pharisees became modern day jews.

[Anonymous No.18858937]

>>18858900
>You needed to look at the paragraph below
I am not finding that version anywhere, there is no paragraph below it
here https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Ephesians.pdf
or here https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0104.htm
or herehttp://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-lightfoot.html
idk what;s going on here
>The date of P75 is based on the style of handwriting
So? It can also be dated earlier because it lacks the Pericope of the Adulteress which also doesn't appear until later.
>I have no idea why you think this defense is relevant.
There's no reason to assume that Irenaeus citing a verse from whatever manuscript he had that we can't verify because we don't have it is more accurate than the earliest manuscripts that we do have.

[Anonymous No.18859057]

While I appreciate the info about the controversial status of this passage, assuming for a moment it is true, what are its implications?

[Anonymous No.18859079]

>>18858937
Check out this link:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-longer.html
You are looking at the shorter version of the epistle
>There's no reason to assume that Irenaeus citing a verse from whatever manuscript he had that we can't verify because we don't have it is more accurate than the earliest manuscripts that we do have.
Let's clarify our positions here for a moment. Are you suggesting that the verse "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" is not an original saying of Jesus or is your position that it may be an original saying but that it probably is not original to Luke? To be frank, I'm far more interested in defending it being an original saying than where it appears in the Gospels.

[Anonymous No.18859168]

>>18858622
How many times does Jesus instruct his followers to pray for their enemies?

[Anonymous No.18859638]

>>18859168
Yeah but that's to save your own soul right? This is jesus asking for the sinners to be saved

[Anonymous No.18859728]

>>18859638
Right but it isn't necessarily being saved regardless of their non belief, but more of being saved in this world so that they can be saved in the next -- forgiving and guiding them, helping them to see the errors of their ways, acknowledging their lack of enlightenment, understanding, and overall ignorance and folly. Many sinners simply do not see where they aree going and what they are doing -- in God's forgiveness, guidance, and mercy, may they be shown knowledge of their actions. They cannot comprehend the true weight of their sins because they are faithless and unenlightened. The truly damned are those who truly know how deeply their actions are evil, and continue in spite of God's absolute dictation for how we are to be. Hence, in this verse, the Lord forgives those who simply went along with the world, not knowing, mindless, manipulated by the Pharisees and by the fervor they were whipped up into.

A good example: Paul persecuted Christians, and he knew not what he did, until, well, he realized what he did and turned, and worked to help Christendom.

It isn't hard to comprehend once you've lived in the faith and felt it

[Anonymous No.18859775]

>>18859728
That makes sense. What does it mean to truly know you're doing evil and do it anyway? Why would anyone, being able to feel God, reject him and choose sin?

[Anonymous No.18860643]

>>18858591
They are crucifying God, their own creator, the source of all good. They don't understand the full implication of what they are doing and are acting in ignorance.
>>18859775
>to truly know you're doing evil and do it anyway
That's almost the exact definition of mortal sin. This and a lack of repentance is what condemns you.

[Anonymous No.18861887]

>>18858591
The actions of humans were cruel and evil, but they did not know better. Jesus even in his finals moments feels sorrow and compassion for humanity. For He is the Messiah and The One True God.

[Anonymous No.18862404]

>>18858591

He attached false importance to himself and his cult, that's all.

[Anonymous No.18862605]

>>18858927
why? they behave exactly the same

[Anonymous No.18862632]

>>18858927
More mind boggling that the Chadusceses disappeared.

[Anonymous No.18862635]

>Men, forgive Him, for He knows not what He has done

[Anonymous No.18862664]

>>18858927
>the enemies of Jesus in the Gospels are the same people who are the enemies of Jesus in the modern world

[Anonymous No.18862715]

textual criticism was a mistake

[Anonymous No.18863616]

>>18862715
What could this possibly mean, all reading of something is 'textual criticism'

[Anonymous No.18864648]

>>18862635
Forgiving god is a heresy right

[Anonymous No.18864718]

>>18858692
Can you explain how the violence is mimetic?

[Anonymous No.18864741]

>>18864718
Not him but that's Rene Girard's view. I haven't read his major work but he talks about the mimetic aspect of christ's crucifixion in Je vois Satan tomber comme l'eclair

[Anonymous No.18865017]

it's plainly obvious

[Anonymous No.18865513]

>>18858591
Something else occurred to me: let's say you have a pious young person who is in gods good graces. Isn't the kindest thing to do to this person killing them? So they will definitely go to heaven before the possibility that they would stay from the righteous path and end up in hell

[Anonymous No.18865901]

>>18858927
They haven't changed since the days of the golden calf in the wilderness. Every prophet and apostle beginning with Moses all the way to John's revelation says the same thing, and condemns them for the same type of apostasy. Children of the devil they've proven themselves to be, over and over again. The enemies of God.

[Anonymous No.18865938]

>>18865901
Kind of makes sense that God would reveal himself to the people who are both the best at gaining power and the most likely to be tempted by it