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/lit/ - Literature


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[ERROR] No.18793184 [Reply] [Original]

when almost all jobs in the western world are service based?
in the west there is no commodity production. everything is outsourced to somewhere else
can the economy we are in even be called "capitalist" when less than 1/5 of western economy is dependent on it?
does anyone on /lit/ even work in an industrial job? i never met a socialist, or anyone for that matter who has.

how can you "seize the means of production" in a service economy?

help me

>> No.18793193
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>>18793184
based breeposter

>> No.18793277

>>18793184
You can't and both leftists and rightoids, libs and socs seethe thinking about this.
You no longer seize the means of production but people. There is no need for any overarching ideology to explain, to point at the enemy; to explain class struggle.
People have never had as much of an opportunity yet so little interest and in taking action. Our society is so moral, so virtuous that opinions alone can shake the Earth.

>> No.18793289
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>>18793184
Because leftoids are autistic larpers who still think the world looks like picrel
>w-workers rise up!

>> No.18793305

>>18793184
Reseize it. Localized “grass roots” everything. For a start we gather people into direct democratic meetings work out several way to begin a process of autonomy. Including providing a duel income for those working with labor vouchers. Of course at first only a small in-group will honor them, but that’s what the DD meetings can help with. Substantive farming, free clinic medical, and small industry.
A big task, but made easier when more people get interested in it

>> No.18793317

>>18793305
Any thoughts on organizing decentralized supply chains between the settlements?

>> No.18793337

>>18793305
how many millions need to die this time?

>> No.18793345

anyone has a screencap of that decent post some leftypol landschizo made a few years back? I think he raised a lot of great points concerning this, I'll go fetch it on the archives if I can

>> No.18793359

>>18793305
this is never going to work. you need capitalism for socialism.
>>18793345
thank you, i'd love to read it.

>> No.18793368

>>18793184
>when almost all jobs in the western world are service based?
you can't reasonably separate jobs in the western world from jobs in the non-western world, because the functioning of the western world completely depends on the jobs performed in the non-western world
>in the west there is no commodity production
services are commodities too.
and besides, there's still production of physical commodities in the West. you can't be so deep in your basement that you aren't aware of that
>can the economy we are in even be called "capitalist" when less than 1/5 of western economy is dependent on it?
the economy is capitalist because it's based on generalized wage-labour and generalized, socialized commodity production
>how can you "seize the means of production" in a service economy?
does a barista shoot coffee beans out of his ass, make coffee out of them using his mouth and serve it out of his dick while the client sits on his lap on a field somewhere? have you been outside lately?

>> No.18793371
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>>18793359
found it

>> No.18793387

>>18793371
God I remember this schizo, the amount of alarmist hysteria he posted on a daily basis eclipsed even the average /pol/ tourist, dude probably off'd himself by now

>> No.18793398

>>18793368
>services are commodities too
how
>and besides, there's still production of physical commodities in the West.
barely any at all, limited to certain luxury products
>the economy is capitalist because it's based on generalized wage-labour and generalized, socialized commodity production
services are not a commodity
>does a barista shoot coffee beans out of his ass, make coffee out of them using his mouth and serve it out of his dick while the client sits on his lap on a field somewhere? have you been outside lately?
coffee beans are grown in third world countries. the barista is just a middle man and thus superfluous. he is just a smaller bourgeoisie because his labor is not part of producing the coffee beans, he is only providing a service to sell. he is not producing any commodity.

socialism would be workers producing and selling the coffee beans themselves, the barista would not even exist.

>> No.18793402

>>18793371
>>18793387
but he's 100% right

>> No.18793403
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Guys, I think Marx might be cringe.

>> No.18793451

>>18793403

Oh knows Anon really?

>> No.18793498

>>18793337
On million landlords. Bang bang

>> No.18793499

>>18793337
just you

>> No.18793509

>>18793398
>how
services are socially useful and have economic value because they're produced for sale. hence they're commodities

>barely any at all, limited to certain luxury products
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany
>Main industries: Iron, steel, coal, cement, chemicals, machinery, vehicles, machine tools, electronics, automobiles, food and beverages, shipbuilding, textiles
luxury cement

>coffee beans are grown in third world countries
and they're transported using ships built in first world countries, for example
>the barista is just a middle man and thus superfluous
my point is that he uses beans transported with ships that needs fuel, he uses physical coffee machines, he serves coffee by pouring it into cups that sit on a table, under a roof in a room with electricity and air conditioning. I don't understand how you can claim that there's no means of production at work here
>he is just a smaller bourgeoisie because his labor is not part of producing the coffee beans, he is only providing a service to sell
his labour is part of producing the coffee. actually I gave a shitty example, because the coffee is a physical product. a better one would be e.g. a hairdresser, who likewise uses physical tools, substances, furniture, etc.
>socialism would be workers producing and selling the coffee beans themselves, the barista would not even exist.
there wouldn't be career baristas, but I don't see why there couldn't be an amount of outdoor places where you could drink coffee made by someone else on the spot. maybe this is a bad example, because society would likely prefer to save on such labour through automation, but you can replace this with other services that are necessary yet require non-trivial human skill, like teaching or something, and would have to be provided socially rather than by each individual for themselves

>> No.18793518

>>18793371
>when you take Marxism to its fullest extent
How about taking Bakunin to his fullest extent?
Among others.

>> No.18793528

>>18793398
>>18793509
>socialism would be workers producing and selling the coffee beans themselves
and, most importantly, workers wouldn't be selling anything, because private property would be gone. their products would be immediately owned by the entire society and directly assigned to others for consumption. there would be no room there for any mediation by sale and purchase

>> No.18793579

>>18793371
>Our creations will outlive us
Do AI tards really? Of all sci-fi possibilities, artificial consciousness is least likely.

>> No.18793580

>>18793509
Not the other anon but services aren't productive: you can't wring more relative surplus value from a barista or hairdresser with improvements in their tools. A child in the 18th century can pour coffee as fast as a barista with a masters degree today.

>> No.18793590
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>>18793359
This is a description of an early stage out of capitalism into localized market socialism.
The feds may get antsy about the vouchers, but it isn’t money, it’s more akin to coupons.
You gonna sign up to drive a suicide truck of manure into their bakery co-ops, to make sure it doesn’t happen?

>> No.18793611

>>18793403
>his ideas were so bad they lead to over 100 million dead
I’m thinking based.

>> No.18793634

>>18793528
>>18793509
how can either a hairdresser or a barista seize the means of production?
they would have to own the business in question, which for a barista would mean exploiting the third worlders themselves.

>> No.18793639

>>18793611
>his ideas were so good they lead to over 100 million dead
ftfy

>> No.18793644

>>18793184
>>>/pol/

>> No.18793657

>>18793644
there would be no discussion on this subject on /pol/, and there is no discussion on anything substantial at all in /pol/,and i want to read books about this as well, okay?

>> No.18793658

>>18793644
I sympathize. But you know they don’t have this level of discourse there.

>> No.18793662

The problem is much deeper. Whether we have socialism or capitalism, the service based economy is the foundation of an absurd dystopia that is getting worse and worse. We are far removed from nature and are degraded and tormented by authority at every point. Society needs to collapse.

>> No.18793668

>>18793657
>>18793658
>>>/k/ys

>> No.18793675
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>>18793668
I hope you report all the spammer, trolls and off topic brain fart posters too.
This thread isn’t the worst thing around here

>> No.18793728

>>18793184
Thanks OP. You've triggered me. I wanna punch this bitch in the face.
I hate young women with "attitude" so much.
No virtue, no self discipline, no grace, not even the slightest notion that they should be serving anything higher than themselves.
The only things these women believe is that the world should rain down validation on their heads like an ever flowing river and that the world should contort itself around them so as to become a playground in which they can indulge in consequence free self gratification until their heart's content.
Women like her are truely worthless people.
Being young and pretty is of no value when you have no virtue and are this self absorbed.

>> No.18793735

>>18793580
>Not the other anon but services aren't productive: you can't wring more relative surplus value from a barista or hairdresser with improvements in their tools
yes, you can. let's say we have a barista making coffees for an hour:
>machine depreciation $50, beans $50, wage $10; coffees $120
>profit = $10 (100% of the wage)
now let's say a better machine gets introduced that lets the barista make twice the amount of coffee in the same hour:
>machine depreciation $100 (assuming that it's twice as expensive per hour of functioning), beans $100, wage $10, coffees $230 (2x the amount is produced but the price has been cut down)
>profit = $20 (200% of the wage)
(coffee machines are not that expensive, but you get the point)

>>18793634
>how can either a hairdresser or a barista seize the means of production?
seizing the means of production is not an individual act, but a class act. the proletariat seizes the means of production when its political party assumes power and expropriates the capitalists
>they would have to own the business in question, which for a barista would mean exploiting the third worlders themselves.
well, first of all he would be exploiting himself, if he continued to work as a barista in his own enterprise. that's not socialist, but simply a transfer of ownership of an enterprise that continues to function on a capitalist basis. this is why the "seizing means of production" formula produces more confusion than it helps.

>> No.18793744
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>>18793371
Alarmism is defeatism turned into a marketing tool for grifters. "Everything sucks!!! Read this book, buy my shirts, and get my car stickers to know why there's nothing you can do about it!!!". Fuck off. Let's take the case of pollution for example. It's funny how Ted was right about so much, yet he himself fell into the same behavioural patterns he criticised, the so-called feelings of powerlessness, guilt, and abandonment that comes from over-socialisation. The feeling that you're responsible for all of the universe's well-being, and if there's something wrong with it, then there's something wrong with you too (essentially). Especially with regards to ecological alarmism, Zizek put it best (paraphrased): "The trick being employed here is the personalisation of ecological responsibility, when the individual himself is not even the perpetrator of pollution. It's a subtle tactic of shifting blame onto the average person and away from the corporations: 'sort your trash by recycling bins! stop using fuel cars! buy solar batteries!' or whatever". And you what end up having is a bunch of defeatists whose feelings that the world is doomed and helpless is really just a projection of their own feelings of doom and helplessness. If you really want to make a change, STOP thinking big. Think locally instead, think about how you can improve your immediate environment. Your home, your neighbourhood, your town, whatever. Take that mindset, and act locally. Gather people with you and take it to the local polluters, tighten standards on them, get your immediate vicinity fixed up. That will be quite enough by itself, and it will inspire other communities to do the same. This doesn't just apply to pollution activism mind you, it applies to everything. I'm speaking from experience here.

>> No.18793769
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>I hate young women with "attitude" so much.
>No virtue, no self discipline, no grace, not even the slightest notion that they should be serving anything higher than themselves.
>The only things these women believe is that the world should rain down validation on their heads like an ever flowing river and that the world should contort itself around them so as to become a playground in which they can indulge in consequence free self gratification until their heart's content.
>Women like her are truely worthless people.
>Being young and pretty is of no value when you have no virtue and are this self absorbed.

>> No.18793778
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>PENIS VAGINA MANLET PUSSY HOLE INCEL MEDS MEDS MEDS COMMUNISM HITLER TRANNIES
Now just what the fuck are you people squabbling about today?

>> No.18793822

>>18793769
Keep protecting these fair maidens on the internet anon :)
I'm sure one day one of them will grace you with two minutes of friction before you coom into a little balloon.

>> No.18793829

>>18793778
Let the multipolar world become ever more multipolar, down to the last man and woman in competent autonomy

>> No.18793835

>>18793744
Pretty sound advice ngl. There's too much obsession with
>THE WORLD!
>THE PLANET!
>HUMANITY!
And not one thought spared to
>the community
>the town
>the block
>the street
This is the space you're actually living in, and you share it with other people. Work with them to tackle its problems.

>> No.18793857

>>18793835
Thanks anon. The thing is I actually work with a local environmental groups and we got a lot of shit done in our little neck of the woods, so I can't help but be baffled at all the defeatist babbling and obtuse philosophising that really does nothing but give anon the luxurious mental position of getting to complain about shit AND justify not doing anything about it. It's awful.

>> No.18793872
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>>18793835
>>the town
>>the block
>>the street
Saw this posted a while back. Has anyone looked into it? Is it any good?

>> No.18793889

>>18793857
It really is. Good on you for actually marching out there and doing local work.

>>18793872
I don't know this book, but it looks interesting.

>> No.18793932

>>18793184
>how can you "seize the means of production" in a service economy?
Think about how much money is made by a company like GrubHub. They don't prepare the food. They don't deliver the food. They don't train the drivers or restaurant staff. They don't pay to maintain the kitchen, or the real estate, or the vehicles. They don't provide maps or GPS software. They literally just run a server for placing orders with other restaurants, then take 15-30% off the top.

Their value is derived entirely from the making themselves a centralized middle-man. The centralization is literally the only value-added: if the market were decentralized (different websites for different restaurants) everybody would just order directly from the restaurant, and the restaurant owner and the customer would both be financially better off.

Running and maintaining these servers could be done for a fraction of a percent of what companies like GrubHub, Uber, AirBnB, etc. charge, and it would actually *lower* the financial burden on the people who supply the underlying capital, whether it's the restaurant, rental property, vehicle, whatever. Socializing these kinds of services would be an incredible boost to economic efficiency, even if the underlying market was still private.

>> No.18793946

She's pretty

>> No.18793949

>>18793946
You're pretty

>> No.18793967

>>18793184
Revolution will not come from the west. It will come from the exploited, underdeveloped global south. Those kids who shout "seize the m.o.p" in the west are mostly bernie supporting larpers. For me, to be socialist in the 21st century you need to look to the third world

>> No.18793975

>>18793305
Put your trip back on, Butterfly

>> No.18793983

>>18793184
You can. Just seize the supply of electricity.

>> No.18793988

>>18793822
oh he mad

>> No.18794005

>>18793822
>muh seed MUH SEEED
>She put’ed it inna balooooohoohooonnnyah

>> No.18794029
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[ERROR]

>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I'M GOING INSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANE HELP ME NIGGERMAN!!!

>> No.18794048

>>18793402
Except for the final claim. None of our works will last. We likely won't even produce AI before the end.

>> No.18794058

>>18793184
>service based
The means of production means the machines that make things you actually need
If you weren't all braindead slaves scrubbing floors and pushing burgers to play wow and LARP on shitty imageboards, maybe you would have a clue and we wouldn't have a continent of plastic in an ocean of shit as the only thing you will have left behind once your habitat collapses
gg

>> No.18794116

>>18793975
Can’t atm. How ya doin’?

>> No.18794186

>>18793988
Genuine question:
Are we not allowed at all to criticise the beliefs and behaviour of young women?
What is your stance on this?
When I see OPs picture, what I see is the provocative and vulgar enthronement of consequence free self gratification as the highest ideal.
When I see that young woman making that face while wearing that shirt, I see "I've decided that the god of the universe loves me for basing my identity on seeking out carnal pleasure and I'm going to rudely shove this in your face. This makes me happy and that's the most important thing in the world"
I think it's a travesty that our culture enables, encourages, and even aggressively protects young women who engage in this behaviour simply because men and women aren't psychologically wired to see young, attractive women as even capable of doing anything harmful. Instead we're psychologically wired to protect them and provide for them at all cost while not holding them to account at all (or in the sake of some men, they're wired to work hard to prove value to these women in hopes that these women will allow them access to their bodies. Meanwhile, all these women have to do is exist and cultivate their desirability.)
I genuinely find this woman to be disgusting.
The fact that our culture enthrones them aggressively crushes all attempts to criticise them refutes our culture.

>> No.18794189

>>18793590
money, coupons, vouchers, are all the same thing. they are promises. there is nothing inherently wrong with money, the problem is that money is a single uniform commodity- that banks hold a monopoly on the production of money.

>> No.18794198

>>18794189
Money became a probelm when it stopped being a symbol for something else. It became self-referential in value at some point, and shit started going down south from there, centuries before the industrial revolution.

>> No.18794216

>>18794186
Genuine question:
Why are you stuck as a virgin with rage?

>> No.18794223

>>18794216
>Why are you stuck as a virgin with rage?
Am I?

>> No.18794224
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>>18793184
The SOLUTION, mind you is a Blanqui style coup, with the new replacement government setting up a national bank and reorganizing society into worker co-ops to foster the development of industrial capitalism- along with non state trade unions keeping the new bourgeoisie class so that they may fulfill their historical role. Through education and eugenics, and around a century's worth of time the transition to socialism will be complete.

>>18793305
lol you'd just get ruby ridge'd butters. Read Mussolini.

>>18794198
yes, because money became a thing in itself. This isn't a problem of money, moreso what money has become. Labor vouchers and coupons are still money, in fact they are more closest to the original intention of money, a measure of something rather than a tool for oppression.

>> No.18794259

>>18793289
It does. Just not in the west unless you count the poverty nations in Eastern Europe like Belarus

>> No.18794283

>>18793184
It's all bullshit, you dumb pawn.

>> No.18794304

>>18794224
>The SOLUTION bla bla
Imagine all you retards wanting to go back to the twencen... It failed. It all failed. And here you are, solving the world's problems over a pint, just like every other fucking halfwit that could ever afford one.
You are the problem. It's not others doing anything. It's you doing nothing but circlejerking at the pub or on /pol/ or whatever other loser shithole you imagine some turd will give you a drinks worth of attention
>>18794189
>>18794198
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEADZ2PJ6iY

>> No.18794319

>>18794304
>The SOLUTION bla bla
>posts ezra pound
pound agrees with me you buffoon.

>> No.18794351

>>18793184
Fucking imbecile. The dregs of mass capitalist society are the new proletariat —- minority groups are quickly coming together via intersectionality and converging under the banner of oppressed classes. Labor has been replaced with identity, and these identity groups are the ones who are demanding socialism right now (blacks, trannies, sex workers, etc)

>> No.18794353

>>18793184
This is a good question, but it mostly speaks to the instability of the American economy. America is completely reliant on foreign beneficence to survive, an uncomfortable fact to be sure. The more its military withers in power and the less important it is to keep USD in stock, the more this will be felt.

Of course, there is one thing American excels at: cultural products. Software, movies, music, research. The USA is currently a media powerhouse, which is why it’s so hellbent on pushing other countries to adopt onerous IP laws. It’s hard to imagine this will be tolerated forever, and it may very well be that the USA’s position as a cultural powerhouse is already slipping.

>> No.18794357

>>18794186
you get all that from a picture of some whore?
reevaluate your life

>> No.18794368

>>18793371
Based. Had this realization after reading Ellul for the first time. His diagnosis was correct, but he was too optimistic. A few decades of unfurling technological development and it became clear. Marx wasn’t evil. Marx was delusionally hopeful. But there’s no escaping the maw of Moloch.

>> No.18794444

>>18794357
Looks like I really struck a nerve with some people on here today.
Why do simps get so triggered when criticise their waifus?

>> No.18794470

>>18794353
>it may very well be that the USA’s position as a cultural powerhouse is already slipping
perhaps kpop is the first truly normie-focused skirmish in all this (anime could be seen as the first, but it was mostly confined to nerds and outcasts)

>> No.18794487

>>18793193
>>18793184
I could knock her out with one punch

>> No.18794487,1 [INTERNAL] 

>>18794224
Ruby Towns, counties, cities and states. And no. Read Gelderloos and Öcalan. We make something worth fighting for and we can win

>>18794189
No, they’re definitely all three different. Money is pernicious element of money is it’s accumulative feature. The other two have expiration dates. A voucher is not only redeemable at wider locations than coupons m but they’re personalized.
Bitcoins hope to end the banks and starve the state of taxes but that’s why they resist it. And regular people will also resist feudal lords (in the US anyway)

>>18794487
No. You couldn’t.