Spiritual Authority & Temporal Power

[Anonymous No.18514361]

This book by Rene Guenon talks about the relation between the Priestly caste and the Warrior caste, with some side notes about the Merchant caste and shudras.

He describes the relationship between the two as such:
>In exchange for the guarantee of their power by the spiritual authority, the Kshatriyas (warriors, kings, nobles) must use this power to ensure that the Brahmins (priests) will have the means to peacefully accomplish their proper function of knowledge and teaching, sheltered from trouble and agitation. This is what is represented in Hindu symbolism by the image of Skanda, lord of war, protecting the meditation of Ganesha, lord of knowledge. It should be noted that the same thing was taught, even outwardly, in the Western Middle Ages; indeed, Saint Thomas Aquinas expressly declares that all human functions are subordinate to contemplation as their superior end, 'so that, when considered properly, they all seem to be in service of those who contemplate truth,' the true raison d'être of the entire government of civil life fundamentally lying in the assurance of the peace necessary for this contemplation.

The role of the Merchant caste is to keep the sphere of economics and commerce in order.

Discuss.

[Anonymous No.18514380]

>>18514361
>guenon
opinion invalidated

[Anonymous No.18514387]

Also another interesting bit about luciferianism vs satanism
>The attitude of the rebel Kshatriyas could be characterized quite exactly by the designation 'Luciferianism', which must not be confused with 'Satanism', although there is doubtless a certain connection between the two: 'Luciferianism' is the refusal to recognize a superior authority whereas 'Satanism' is the reversal of normal relationships and of the hierarchical order, the latter being often a consequence of the former, just as after his fall Lucifer became Satan.

[Anonymous No.18514440]

>>18514361
I used to think the whole four castes thing was a meme. Then I thought about European history over the last 500 years:
>priest caste falls (the Reformation)
>warrior caste falls (the French Revolution)
>merchant caste falls (Communism)
now we're in clown world

[Anonymous No.18514447]

>>18514440
Yeah he actually says the Indian Caste system and Western Feudal system are incredibly similar.

I'll post some quotes related to it in a sec

[Anonymous No.18514461]

>>18514440

[Anonymous No.18514469]

>>18514461

[Anonymous No.18514479]

>>18514440
Any "western" caste system analogous to the Vedic one collapsed with the Christianization of the Roman empire. But you wouldn't have gotten to be in charge anyway, so feel free to cope with orientalism and so-called metaphysics

[Anonymous No.18514485]

>>18514479
that's probably the most retarded meme i've ever seen on my 24 years on /lit/
congrats retard

[Anonymous No.18514499]

>>18514479
that's okay, I just want the right people to be in charge

[Anonymous No.18514503]

>>18514361
Its interesting to note that just as the ascent of the usurers to power in modernity was concomitant with the rise of individualism and nominalism, just so, in ancient India the rise of the usurers to power was concomitant with the temporary ascent of nominalist and individualist Buddhism

>The Buddhist sanghas were supported by traders and merchants. The commercial class provided support to Buddhism because, in accordance with strict Brahmanical orthodoxy, the traders and merchants, despite possessing economic wealth, were regarded as social and cultural inferiors to the Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Both Mahavira and Buddha challeneged the hereditary caste system. And unlike brahmanism, Buddhism encouraged sea voyages, which the merchants engaged in overseas trade undertook frequently. Loans and debts were taken on interest. At times letters of credit functioned as substitutes for money. The (Hindu) Gautama dharmasutra prescribes a limit on the interestt chargeable by the creditor. The lawful limit was 1.25 percent per month or 15 percent per year. The interest could not exceed the principle, however long the debt remained unpaid. Again, in Buddhism, the interests on the moneylenders were protected, and the debtors were reminded of their obligations. By contrast, the brahmanical lawgivers despised the money-lenders.

- Hinduism and the Ethics of Warfare in South Asia, Kaushik Roy pg. 41

[Anonymous No.18514511]

If I ever see Guenonfag irl I'm due to just spit in his face.

[Anonymous No.18514521]

>>18514485
When you stop being 24 you'll probably figure out wishing for life to be a Paradox game is a waste of time. Namely because you aren't an omniscient player character and have no influence on even the water bill in your town.
>>18514499
Nothing the caste system did saved it from collapsing. "If only we had even more caste system" is a lazy response.

[Anonymous No.18514522]

>>18514479
I probably would've been a Kang desu
>The words used to designate caste in India signify nothing but 'individual nature', implying all characteristics attaching to the 'specific' human nature that differentiate individuals from each other; and it should immediately be added that heredity plays only a partial role in the determination of these characteristics, for were it otherwise ll the individuals would be identical. Thus, caste is not in principle strictly hereditary, even though it has frequently become so in fact and in practice.

[Anonymous No.18514535]

>>18514521
>Nothing the caste system did saved it from collapsing.
And that's okay. Time is cyclical. It'll return.

[Anonymous No.18514536]

>>18514479
why don't you actually read Guenon instead of seething over him in every thread?
pathetic really

[Anonymous No.18514538]

>>18514511
He ruined this board.

[Anonymous No.18514556]

>>18514538
how so

[Anonymous No.18514557]

what exactly is the spiritual difference between the castes? shudras are apparently limited in their ability to connect with the divine, so how exactly does this limitation work?

[Anonymous No.18514563]

>>18514535
Extreme cope
>>18514536
I have. Not impressed. Follow your leader and switch civilizations so we don't have to listen to you whine anymore. English and French are understood in Egypt by the educated, the Americans have a university in Cairo; go there and embrace Islam.
>>18514522
So you are telling me varna is actually myer-briggs/horoscopes/jungian psychology now and not a rigid social structure? Weird how neo-theosophists make other cultures whatever they need them to be to fulfill their goals.

[Anonymous No.18514569]

>>18514563
no you haven't
or else you wouldn't be creating cringe OC

[Anonymous No.18514580]

>>18514563
How is it a cope? Civilizations come and go. We aren't the first, and we'll probably not be the last.

[Anonymous No.18514586]

>>18514580
you're talking to a seething tranny who patrols /lit/ for Guenon threads just so it can shit up the thread.

[Anonymous No.18514591]

>>18514586
I'm not even a big Guenon/Evola fan. I just picked up the Raido primer and thought it was pretty interesting. Dunno why he has to seethe so hard.

[Anonymous No.18514608]

>>18514361
>>18514440
Evola compares capitalism to the rule of the merchant caste, and communism to the rule of the slave caste.

[Anonymous No.18514612]

>>18514608
This was a post from the Reign of Quantity thread the other day

The Degeneration of Coinage (Chapter 16), was straight up prophetic. Guenon talks about the trajectory of Western society through money. He begins with the origin of the coin as a sacred object made of a valuable material and covered with transcendent symbols. He follows the transformation of the coin – its loss of religious significance, its change from metal to paper, the idea of “inflation” – and then he predicts that eventually money will disappear altogether to be replaced by lists of numbers. Guenon was writing in the 1930’s and could not have known of electronic currency.

[Anonymous No.18514619]

>>18514556
He ‘ruined it’ by making leftoids, hylics, atheists and trannies seethe to no end

[Anonymous No.18514622]

>>18514569
Only a fool would take anything posted here as original.
>>18514580
Civilizations come and go is so beyond the duration of your life that you might as well say "at least i'm going to heaven," which is what the tradzooms are actually saying, "at least the true aristocracy will return." Now if you want to look at actual history or general economy and see how this happens, it is the movement of an outside force against a weakened interior. So this cycle coming to rescue civilization centuries from now is actually going to destroy it, like an Alexandrine or Caliphate or Mongol army and then kick off the next cycle. I don't see a. Why you need Guenon for this pov or b. Why you need to valorize the notion of caste since it is just something that happens as a function of state power, the state being seized from outside by more virile groups every so often.

[Anonymous No.18514657]

>>18514619
so you're saying he was sent by God?

[Anonymous No.18514686]

>>18514622
why were we born at the shittiest time? is it because our spiritual self is shitty and therefore only gets transferred to shitty states?

[Anonymous No.18514727]

>>18514686
Transmigration doesn’t go backwards in time, your subtle body has already previously entered into the newly-created fetus of a physical body during every other Yuga as well, and many times over at that, you just have no memory of this.

[Anonymous No.18514794]

>>18514686
You're in an extremely long cycle. Like a hurricane season that goes on and on. Or for our indologist friends, a monsoon season. It doesn't have intentions. It's nature. Study your nondualism

[Anonymous No.18514795]

are we joining or what /trad/chads?
https://sufipathoflove.com/to-be-a-naqshbandi-over-the-internet/

[Anonymous No.18514818]

>>18514440
>>18514608

[Anonymous No.18514901]

>>18514361
Retarded question, but how are the Kshatriyas meant to ascend if thier time is spend occupied protecting others? Do they just 'wait thier turn' in terms of rebirth, so to speak?

[Anonymous No.18514924]

>>18514727
i thought guenon said you never get reincarnated as a human again?

[Anonymous No.18514931]

>>18514924
different anon here. just read OP's book as well and he said no to both reincarnation and eternal recurrence

[Anonymous No.18514988]

[࿇ C Œ M G E N V S ࿇ !KNDY3cHnRY No.18515037]

RANA GÜEÓN, OFFTOPIC THREAD.

[Anonymous No.18515044]

>>18514924
transmigration =/= reincarnation

Guenon, Coomaraswamy, Shankaracharya etc all fully accepted transmigration but not reincarnation. You are not the first person I’ve seen be confused over that passage, but no Guenon didn’t mean “a subtle body once inside a human body never transmigrates into another human body ever again”, this is not taught by Vedanta, rather what Guenon meant was that the subtle body never again returns to a state with the exact same circumstances as a previous birth, which would involve the same parents, same birth circumstances, the same unmanifested karma accompanying you, the same predisposition to certain traits etc, all these change in every birth.

He said never said that a human never

[Anonymous No.18515061]

>>18515044
this actually makes more sense, thank u

[Anonymous No.18515175]

>>18514361
cool tho Dumézil did it better

[Anonymous No.18515185]

>>18515175
Dumezil is great but didn't write about contemporary issues as far as I'm aware of

[Anonymous No.18515245]

>>18515175
What book of Dumézil goes into it better: Flamen-Brahman or later in Mitra-Varuna?

[Anonymous No.18515337]

>>18515245
The latter largely recapitulates and expands upon the first

[Anonymous No.18515343]

>>18515245
>Flamen-Brahman
Has this been translated to English?

[Anonymous No.18515357]

>>18515044
>transmigration =/= reincarnation
What's the difference?
>the subtle body never again returns to a state with the exact same circumstances as a previous birth, which would involve the same parents, same birth circumstances, the same unmanifested karma accompanying you, the same predisposition to certain traits etc, all these change in every birth.
Nobody today, not even New Agers believe this, because it is retarded for obvious reasons. Is Guenon autistically explaining something in great detail which we already know, or were the Theosophists and spiritists during his time that dumb?

[Anonymous No.18515411]

>>18514901
Bhagavad-Gita. The object is to see through the illusion, while obeying your dharma. It is not necessary to physically renounce the world like the monk or hermit.

[Anonymous No.18515545]

>>18515357
>What's the difference?

Reincarnation proposes that certain individuals with their own individual essence or persona are reconstituted anew in another life, like "Richard" becomes "Richard" again but in a new body, or "will I be anon again in the next life with my same skills, habits, likes and dislikes? etc".

In Transmigration the subtle body which continues is no more "Richard" than it was any of the other bodies/lives that it passed through, "Richard" just being one set of transient conditions which it was associated with for a while before moving on, those conditions of Richard's life sometimes leaving subtle residues that continue for a while in trace amounts within the subtle body, but not constituting any sort of permanent essence of "Richard" that continues. The subtle body continues indefinitely until moksha, the only eternal essence is the Atman-Brahman of pure consciousness which illumines the body and mind of Richard while remaining something distinct from them. The real identity, life and essence of all living beings according to Advaita Vedanta is the Atman that illumines the subtle body, not the subtle body and the mind/ego of "Richard" housed in the subtle body or the other conditions which the subtle body successively associates itself with in each life (the particular ego-sense which arises in each life is one of these conditions).

> Is Guenon autistically explaining something in great detail which we already know, or were the Theosophists and spiritists during his time that dumb?
On one hand he is pointing out the metaphysical impossibility of Nietzsche's "Eternal Recurrence" (he goes into more detail about why it's wrong/impossible in "Symbolism of the Cross"), and on the other hand, since the particular egoistic identity and the particular unique mind and its acquired habits/skills/preferences that are developed in each life are indirectly or directly the product of the unique circumstances of one's birth and the associated karmic loads which produced it, by saying that the subtle body never finds itself repeating the exact same birth-circumstances and their causes is tantamount to demonstrating the impossibility of the common western notion of "reincarnation" in the sense explained above, since the unique factors which combined to produce "Richard" and his ego and traits will never again arise, and instead Richard's subtle body will continue and acquire the new individuality of "Aaron" "Susan" "Pierre" etc, and so "Richard" will never be reincarnated in another life because "Richard" was the product of a confluence of unique circumstances impacting the subtle body in one life only, never to arise or repeat again.

[Anonymous No.18515673]

Sicilian Mafia: /trad/ or counter/trad/?

[Anonymous No.18515691]

>>18515245
Honestly, I found Archaic Roman Religion better than Mitra-Varuna. A lot of the translations of Dumezil's stuff are borderline unreadable, but Archaic Roman Religion is really fucking good.

>>18515673
Depends. Evola? Absolutely Modernist, it's a Freemason scheme. Guenon? Freemasonry was BASED so they're absolutely Tradical.

[Anonymous No.18515699]

>>18515691
hey logo

[Anonymous No.18515711]

>>18515699
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

[Anonymous No.18515746]

>>18514387
>>18514440
Interesting but the fall of esoterism predates that according to Guénon. Qnd I think it comes from the West schism from the East with the filioque

[Anonymous No.18515761]

>>18514461
great anon, thank you

[Anonymous No.18515770]

How are castes established and maintained?

[Anonymous No.18515780]

>>18514608
That would be consistent with Plato's take on the degeneration of society. We're currently transitioning from Oligarchy to Democracy

[Anonymous No.18515882]

>>18515673
No, Evola explicitly stated a few times that he hated the Italian stereotype of the pasta eating mafioso.

[Anonymous No.18516421]

>>18515545
thanks anon

[Anonymous No.18516500]

>>18515770
by nature

[Anonymous No.18516838]

>>18514479
In terms of modern world, and workforce or labour, we have entered infra-human period in terms of existence.

>In our time it is fashionable to exalt work of whatever sort and no matter how it is accomplished, as if it had some superlative value in itself independently of any consideration of another order. Contrary to what the moderns think, any work that is done indiscriminately by anyone solely for the pleasure of acting or because of the need to ‘earn one’s living’ hardly merits being exalted, and indeed it can only be regarded as something abnormal, opposed to the order that ought to regulate human institutions, to such a point that, in the conditions of our age, it only too often acquires a character that without any exaggeration qualifies as ‘infra-human’. What our contemporaries seem to ignore completely is that work is not truly valid unless it conforms to the very nature of the being that accomplishes it and results therefrom in a spontaneous and necessary way, as it were, so that it is no more than the means for that nature to realize itself as perfectly as possible.
- "Glorification Of Work" - René Guénon

Under hashtags such as #hustle, #struggle, #success, #crushit, and #riseandgrind, young professionals brag about sacrificing sleep, downtime, and personal welfare in exchange for working long hours to advance their careers and build their own businesses.

Now, someone could argue that working in Kali-Yuga, or modern entrepreneurship in general, in this day and age is 'heroic' and some 'path' to overcome the influences the so-called Dark Age. However, modern Western man, to a large extent a regressive type, is in various respects comparable to a crustacean; he is as “hard” on the outside – as a man of action, as an unscrupulous entrepreneur, as an organizer, and so forth – as he is “soft” and formless in his internal substance. Now, this is true to the highest degree of Americans, who represent the degenerate Western type carried to the extreme. It is quite interesting indeed that even Jordan Peterson uses crustaceans/lobsters (and their serotonic secretions) as basis how he views modern human societies.

[Anonymous No.18516843]

>>18516838

Maybe Peterson's examples are 'subconsciously' related to bottom feeder habbits these underwater creatures have? Having reached so degenerate and dark ends of materialism that they are not even viewed land animals anymore, but some sort of creatures of ocean floor that in the dark pit of oceans continue their subhuman, infra-psychic and infra-human existence?

Similarily, anyone who has visited modern China, or India for that matter, notices that they do not feel genuine human societal experiences, but the main impression one gets is some sort of ant colony or some other insectoid eusociality.

One last observation from myself:
When I was still studying in university here in Europe ( I do not work anymore, I have retired through investments and did this when I turned 30 ) one of my teachers/professors was a Freemason (wish I was not making this up, but his name was on a list that was published about 'notable Freemasons in my city'). This teaher's lectures/field were about IT governance and governance in general at the workplace. He would always use this graph that had some sort of behavioral/governance pyramid in terms of workplaces. At the very bottom of the pyramid was those workers and teams/workplaces who needed 'supervision', 'help', 'support, and general guidance from the higher ups. But the highest place in the pyramid was the "self-governant". Workers knew their place, no one needed guidance, supervision, the teams would form itself, hierarchy would come naturally through one's abilities etc. For most people this would sound like some 'return to Golden Age', but keep in mind, this man was talking about some corporate materialist setting for his vision of this self-governant teams that form themselves. Some sort of 'unconscious satanism' and total reversal of traditional hierarchy. Unconscious satanism of the bottom feeder type of eusocial crustacean insectoids.

[Anonymous No.18516921]

>>18516838
>>18516843
Read part 3 of The Accursed Share. Sovereignty (what you would call being "noble") is incompatible with work. All work is the reduction of man to a thing, to an input, enslaved to a temporal end. Why would anyone be surprised at the increasing degeneration of work in socities which value efficiency, i.e. expediting the end? And if you want to pinpoint where the end replaced sovereignty on a spiritual level it is with the introduction of the life-negating, anti-dionysaic monotheistic counter-religions, and their subordination of all life to a promised eternal continuity after death.

[Anonymous No.18517458]

>>18515357
>were the Theosophists and spiritists during his time that dumb?
They still are.

[Anonymous No.18517472]

>>18515545
Good post anon. It's basic knowledge, but it's good that someone takes the time to explain it, because there are so many misconceptions about it.

[Anonymous No.18517478]

>>18515357
>Nobody today, not even New Agers believe this, because it is retarded for obvious reason
Are you implying Nietzsche is dumber than a new ager? For the record I think he is slightly smarter than the average New Age hippy.

[Anonymous No.18517516]

>>18515357
>>18517458

But Guénon himself beliefed in same nonsense as the Theosophists. The thing is that /trad/itionalists are allowed to spout this same kind of nonsense that Theosophical/New-Agey writers produce, but only Guénon/Evola and his kind are "allowed" to spout these as some sort of absolute truths

For example:
>Guénon’s library, his son informed us, was in virtually the same condition he had left it, with nothing having been moved — this being the consequence of a very specific request he had made of his wife shortly before his death. “I will be present, and here with you so long as my books are kept where they are.”
-At the Tomb of René Guénonin Old Cairo by Atif Khalil (University of Lethbridge)

It is clear that Guénon believed in some sort of Vampirical/Leech like existence after his death, his animus/ghost would continue the study in his library room, as long as his son and wife kept would kep the room in order, so as to continue the scholar existence he had on Earth. Perhaps haunt the place as some sort of ghost or a lich.

It's only one step away that Guénon would have made a very specific request to bring hot meals to the study room with his favorite food/dishes while living, so as to "feed" the astral ghost/lich.

Imagine if someone like Blavatsky would have made a request like that. The /trads/ would shout: counter-initiation! Satanic infrapsychic astral vampires! Satanism!

But when Guénon does it the only response is: pbuh, may his tomb remembered forever and sanctified. Pbuh

You're in a Cult and you know it.

[Anonymous No.18517564]

>>18517516
That honestly just seems like a nice commemoration of his life more than anything. You're reading so much into it because you want to discredit him.

[Anonymous No.18517584]

>>18517564
>pbuh

[Anonymous No.18517872]

>>18514479
Lmfao, see>>18514485

[Anonymous No.18517900]

>>18514612
Spot on. Guenon was a prophet. "Spirituality inverted" is what the technocrats are doing; for example, trying to become immortal by merging with technology, as opposed to initiation, which actually makes one truly immortal. At best they will continue to exist in a larval form, controlled by their AI. There are so many other things he spoke of which came true as well.

[Anonymous No.18517919]

>>18517516
You're a fucking retard. A dirty sudra. Are you brown?

[Anonymous No.18517962]

>>18514586
I know a tranny who is a huge guenon fan

[Anonymous No.18518068]

>>18517919
Guénon himself was a sudra. People in these generals are totally ignorant of traditional societies, especially how they were formed in the West in ancient times.

The fact that Guénon did work for a living, and was not born into aristocracy, would have even made him Humiliores in Roman Societal division for example.

There was only one cardinal rule for honestiores (aristocracy) in Roman times: Do not work. Even Cicero says: "opifices omnes in sordita arte versantur = all workers are engaged in sordid professions"

Labor was/is only performed by those who were not respectable.

While succesful capitalists/merchants/sudras could achieve success later in life and in terms of wealth and leisure (like Guénon) rise up to the ranks into the higher echelons of society, this sort of wealthy merchant or other succesful person's reputation would always remained tarnished and taited by the stain of having once labored for a living.

In terms of hierarchy and ontological substruction of truly traditional societies, Evola is/was much more respectable Guénon and should be regarded higher in rank. Trads will never understand this though since they have no understanding of the Social World of ancient Western civilizations such as the Eastern or Western Roman Empire. They have these weird orientalist, Vedic understanding of the castes that have little to none relevance to the Western tradition. Not only that, they are Guénon fanboys.

[Anonymous No.18518093]

what the fuck is the deal with the "psychic"? some times it seems he uses it pretty much interchangeably with the "subtle" (which i think is his word for the demonic/infernal subhuman domain), and at other times he insists that they're completely different! can psychic influences drag you further away from god or are only subtle influences able to do that? is there a difference between psychic and psychological?

[Anonymous No.18518123]

>>18518068
Nice, you actually made me laugh outloud while reading your 59 IQ mental retard take. You clearly haven't read/understood Guenon but you have such strong opinions and write so much about him. You are so ignorant to all of this that it isn't worth my time giving you a proper response. "Cast not pearls before swine..."

[Anonymous No.18518141]

>>18518068
>Guénon himself was a sudra
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Anonymous No.18518158]

>>18518141
Compared to Evola, yes, he most clearly was.

>Little is known about Evola's early upbringing except that he considered it irrelevant. He studied engineering at the Istituto Tecnico Leonardo da Vinci in Rome, but did not complete his course, later claiming this was because he "did not want to be associated in any way with bourgeois academic recognition and titles such as doctor and engineer."

Not only that Guénon served in the military in his youth.

People here claim absolutely ridiculous things about Guénon and liken him to some Brahmin caste or similar.

What man IS
Is not the same thing
That man claims to be

Evola is/was and will remain ontologically higher forever than Guénon, even what his followers may claim about him.

And that also makes Evola's authority superior to that of Guénon, who cannot be viewed even anti-bourgeois, for he once was part of the bourgeois. No one can rise in the "rank" of being. For the world has been ordained from the beginning.

[Anonymous No.18518173]

>>18518158
g-guenonbros... p-please refute this

[Anonymous No.18518186]

>>18518158
you claim only sudras do work? if so then what do vaishyas and kshatriyas do all day?

[Anonymous No.18518188]

>>18518158
>compared to
Dude just stop. You have no clue what youre talking about. Evola was a ksatriya, Guenon was a brahmin, independent from one another. Both were great and played different roles. Bye, you monumental fucking tard.

[Anonymous No.18518193]

>>18518173
>replying to yourself
Pathetic

[Anonymous No.18518204]

>>18518186
Why are you using Hindu terms regarding two European males like Evola and Guénon?

You MUST use Western tradition as a reference if you want apply any sort of caste hierarchy towards Guénon or Evola, see this post for starters >>18518068

You people are like little children, orientalist fantasists talking about Brahmins, Vedanta, yet you cannot understand that these are system of the past and they never existed in a same form in the West. It amazes me how ignorant "traditionalists" in these threads are in regards to Western tradition. They talk of some negroid Vedic civilizations that have been relevant thousands of years ago and think that traditionalism has not existed in any other form in any other continent

[Anonymous No.18518210]

>>18518188
Again, it is totally irrelevant what titles some white, obese neckbeards confer upon themselves or persons in history.

I can tell who lived like an aristocrat simply by reading and comparing biographies of said persons. It is absolutely irrelevant if some French schoolteacher ex-militaryman wants to sell his imago as a "Authentic Brahmin"

That's fantasy. Why not claim Guénon was a Druid, since it is probably the closest we have to the Brahmin caste in the Western tradition?

You people are so fucking retarded on too many levels, but then again, 90% of posts in these generals is just baiting and trolling. Pbuh!

[Anonymous No.18518234]

>>18518173
Your samefaggotry is obvious. Without even referring to your idiotic post, we can "refute" it simply by observing the reality that Guenon was initiated into a top tier Suffi organisation, which would not initiate filthy shudra dogs such as yourself. He knew 13 languages and had an unequivocal profound understanding of every ancient Tradition to the extant that even the masters of these Traditions praised his understanding above their own. Understanding in this sense has a completely different meaning than the one your inferior shudra brain knows, this knowledge is initiatic and can't be taught.

Leave this thread at once, you foul and profane faggot.

[Anonymous No.18518237]

>>18518188x
>Evola was a ksatriya, Guenon was a brahmin
They were both retards who misread the texts and made outrageous and laughable claims. See seec

[Anonymous No.18518252]

>>18518204
>You MUST use Western tradition as a reference if you want apply any sort of caste hierarchy towards Guénon or Evola, see this post for starters
Nobody cares about your idiot opinion, we're just here to laugh at the child.

[Anonymous No.18518253]

>>18518210
Guenon has two periods, one was as a french guy who got initiated into some eastern paths, and the other one was egyptian and muslim(no longer french, he even refused to be called one). There are no castes in modern France and neither in Islam.

[Anonymous No.18518259]

>>18518237
>so BTFO it cant even type a coherent response
Kek

[Anonymous No.18518269]

Just a reminder for everyone here that the guy sperging about Orientalist terms vs Western terms is a literal Hindu nationalist who is insecure about his own identity. I've seen him in other threads before. That is all.

[Anonymous No.18518271]

>>18518259
Still can't prove me wrong, faggot. Evola and Guenon were larpers of the highest orders of cringe.

[Anonymous No.18518276]

>>18518253
This is indeed the sign of a man who spent his entire life seeking for something (Guénon), and not the sign of man who knows and remains true to himself and his calling (Evola)

Even in the face of misfortune Evola showed extreme sign of superior spiritual standing to Guénon:
>Not much changed in my life following the accident, as my handicap was merely physical: aside from the practical disadvantages, and the limitations it entailed from the point of view of my profane existence, the handicap hardly bothered me, for my spiritual and intellectual work remained unaffected by the accident.

Contrast this to Guénon, who blamed (in his case of pseudo-arthritis) some sorcerers using 'magic' and wizardry against him. Even if that might have some truth to it, the pain of his pseudo-arthritis must have been hardly immobilizing as was in the case of Evola's handicap.

[Anonymous No.18518293]

>>18518276
>remains true to himself and his calling
How do you know that what Guenon did wasn't his calling? People became muslims from traditional times, is nothing new here. At least Guenon was seeking something, instead of living a secular life like Evola did. "seek, and you shall find" like the Gospel says, or "seek knowledge even unto China" like the Hadith says.

[Anonymous No.18518297]

>>18518276
>pseudo-arthritis must have been hardly immobilizing
You have no idea.

[Anonymous No.18518300]

>>18516921
Wrong

[Anonymous No.18518303]

>>18517900
You don't need to become immortal, you already are. This shit about needing to be initiated otherwise bad things will happen after death is pure fear-mongering. Read Plato

[Anonymous No.18518307]

These threads are cultish as fuck.

[Anonymous No.18518309]

>>18518303
Read Guenon, and also learn what adverbs are.

[Anonymous No.18518310]

>>18518303
>This shit about needing to be initiated otherwise bad things will happen after death
Who even claimed this? Salvation is enough to avoid "bad things after death". Initiation is the gate to the higher states of being, which are above salvation.

[Anonymous No.18518336]

>>18518309
>say anything that goes against the master's opinions
>print("Read Guenon.");
See >>18518307, also learn to think for yourself.
>>18518310
>thinking there are things above salvation
>thinking salvation is temporary
Most of Guenon's books are fear-mongering: about so-called "counter initiation" (kek), about infra-dimensional evil influences, about how if you don't do things the way he says, bad things will happen to your soul in the long term. He's a despicable megalomaniac guru guilty of the same things he calls out the new agers on.

[Anonymous No.18518350]

>>18518336
If I tell you to read Plato because you think Plato argued in favor of pedophilia and materialism, that's not a Platonic cult, that's because you literally haven't even understood him in the most basic sense.

[Anonymous No.18518354]

>>18518350
>you think Plato argued in favor of pedophilia and materialism,
I rarely say this unironically but take your fucking meds, you are absolutely unhinged. You're not making the slightest bit of sense.

[Anonymous No.18518374]

>>18518354
You're claiming Guenon says things which he never has. I actually think you have read him, but you seem to have some vendetta against him which is why you appear in every thread making up slanderous lies without any proof for them. As for my analogy just prior, anyone who has any knowledge of Plato would know Plato is not a materialist; likewise, anyone with any knowledge of Guenon would know he argues that there is no such thing as "death" for anyone, ergo everyone is immortal (in some sense). There is virtually know fear mongering, no more so than Plato, who also argues that those who acquire knowledge of "what is", see Phaedrus, participate in the state of the gods, higher than "mortals." Guenon and Plato are more or less agreed on this point.

[Anonymous No.18518402]

>>18518374
And we should not forget that Plato was INITIATED into the mysteries.

[Anonymous No.18518420]

>>18518374
>You're claiming Guenon says things which he never has
Everything I said in >>18518336 is true.
>you seem to have some vendetta against him
Personally, I couldn't give less of a shit about Guenon himself since I'm not a perennialist. I'm simply tired of the incessant shilling on this board, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if it actually was a psyop or a discord raid and I don't like it, it shits up the board when you can't have a discussion on spirituality without some autist posting walls of text about guenon and sperging out when told to fuck off.
>>18518402
Plato didn't have Guenon's exclusivist views on initiation, as he believed that to do philosophy was itself the best "initiation" possible, and also didn't have any shoddy theories about perennialism and an alleged "higher state" superior to salvation, among other things.

[Anonymous No.18518443]

>>18518420
>you can't have a discussion on spirituality without some autist posting walls of text about guenon and sperging out when told to fuck off.
This is what the antiguenonfags are doing when they spam memes with guenonfag and quotes from Ibn Arabi to prove that he doesn't teach Advaita. Maybe leave us alone and we will stop, you are making things worse but it seems that you enjoy all of this shitposting after all.

[Anonymous No.18518454]

>>18518271
You were already proven wrong and you ran away, see>>18518234

You're obviously a dumb 3rd worlder, you should be on your knees thanking us for acknowledging your profane existence.

[Anonymous No.18518457]

>>18518420
>Everything I said in >>18518336 is true.
No it isn't, and you have virtually zero proof. "It's true because I said so" is cult tier logic, so good job clearing yourself of that label.
>as he believed that to do philosophy was itself the best "initiation"
Plato's idea of philosophy was extremely different to modern philosophy. Again, read his dialogues.
>and also didn't have any shoddy theories about perennialism and an alleged "higher state" superior to salvation, among other thing
Yes he did, read Phaedrus and Critias. You're an illiterate fool.

[Anonymous No.18518460]

>>18518158
Every french had to serve in the military. And Guénon was a teacher, which is a Brahmin profession (university itself comes from the catholic clergy)
>muh bourgeois
You would see Brahmin in India work and have lesser work nowadays than before (doctor,...). It doesn't mean they have a lower nature, just that their possibilities are different. One thing yo do one time in life doesn't define your total nature.

[Anonymous No.18518464]

>>18518300
Evola praised 'The Worker' in a letter to Carl Schmitt

[Anonymous No.18518468]

>>18518293
By picking a side you are playing into that inferior faggot's hands, both Guenon and Evola were great men who fulfilled their roles in the way they were supposed to. Evola was "on the ground," Guenon was...elsewhere.

[Anonymous No.18518479]

>>18518443
>Maybe leave us alone
Maybe do the same, then. I'll fuck off now and I invite guenonfags to do the same when told.
>>18518457
>now he's strawmanning plato to fit his narrative
Fuck you faggot, this is why everyone on this board despises you.

[Anonymous No.18518515]

>>18518468
I am aware that Evola had more knowledge than the majority of his modern contemporaries, but as Guenon characterized him in one of his letters, he was a smart guy but full of prejudices, this was probably the consequence of the hilosophical period of his youth. Read Guenon's correspondence with him and you will see that they disagreed on many things.

[Anonymous No.18518567]

>>18518479
>Fuck you faggot, this is why everyone on this board despises you.
You haven't read/understood Guenon, you haven't read/understood Plato. Why am I not surprised. I have no doubt you haven't even touched the Enneads before.

[Anonymous No.18518577]

>>18518515
I have, and of course they had disagreements, particularly when Evola was younger (when many of those letters were written). But he changed as he got older and recognised Guenon's authority. I think ultimately the main "disagreements" arose from them having different "personal equations," one being ksatriya and the other brahmin. Most notable is Evola claiming that the King in our times must be of the warrior caste (a necessary deviation from the primordial Tradition), while Guenon maintained that the King must be of the sacerdotal caste, which is technically correct. Evola granting primacy to action; Guenon, contemplation. A difference in character. I don't really see the point in infighting, these are just different worldviews true for different types. Of course in the absolute sense Guenon is correct, but that isnt the point.

[Anonymous No.18518592]

>>18518577
Good observations.

[Anonymous No.18518600]

>>18518577
I think the main difference is that Evola frames his though around the Roman Tradition. Guenon actually says in Spiritual Authority and Temporal Power that the Roman Emperor was slightly different from the primordial tradition - yet acceptable in his eyes. (or something along those lines. he doesn't dive into the subject though)
I'll try to find the page and post it here in a sec.

[Anonymous No.18518652]

>>18518577
>>18518600

[Anonymous No.18518660]

>>18518293
Even at the end of his life he was still searching. He never found true peace (that is also a characteristic of Qutb as 'Pole' and certainty as a characteristic of highest spiritual realization. It is also the immovable center that is not searching as one has become a compass towards Visnech in 'Druidic/Hyperborean' symbolism)

Even towards his death his only advice Guénon gave to his son and mother was:
>Guénon’s library, his son informed us, was in virtually the same condition he had left it, with nothing having been moved — this being the consequence of a very specific request he had made of his wife shortly before his death. “I will be present, and here with you so long as my books are kept where they are.”
-At the Tomb of René Guénon in Old Cairo by Atif Khalil (University of Lethbridge)

He was still, like a lich, trying to keep his dying hands on the most precious thing he knew in life: knowledge. And what is Knowledge, but the very soul of Illusion?

Contrast this to the point Evola makes in his "Yoga of Power":
>The Tantras deny the value of knowledge. In order to obtain true knowledge, one must be transformed by action; hence kriya, action

Evola then continues:
>After all, it is an Upanishadic theme that:
>"into blind darkness enter they that worship ignorance; into darkness greater than that, as it were, they that delight in knowledge," and that those who have studied, upon attaining true knowledge, "throw away books as if they were on fire."
-Isha-Upanishad 9.

Guénon failed.

[Anonymous No.18518672]

I am so glad to see Guenon holds such ground on this board. Has it always been this way or is this fairly new? Last time I used /lit/ it seemed to be full of reddit marxists, about 2 or 3 years ago.

Also, dare I ask, have any of you dedicated yourselves to a spiritual path? I am aware of Guenon's stance on initiatic regularity, but most of us do not have the luxury of joining an organisation, especially to start. The world needs us, I believe things are going to get a lot worse soon, 2030 may well be the close of the present cycle according to the man (his name escapes me) who calculated its end under the guidance of Guenon.

[Anonymous No.18518681]

>>18518672
welcome back amigo
we're all getting initiated into this: https://sufipathoflove.com/to-be-a-naqshbandi-over-the-internet/

[Anonymous No.18518699]

>>18518660
You are beginning to understand that Evola granted primacy to action and Guenon to contemplation. Is it your first day reading about them?

[Anonymous No.18518708]

>>18518577
There is no infighting because they were not part of a common organization or even school(Guenon would reject the concept of "traditionalist school"). They were just two authors who had some things in common(rejection of modernity and unity of traditions) and some disagreements. I am not saying that you should agree only with Guenon or only with Evola, this is your problem, but you(and people in general) should let each author speak for himself.

[Anonymous No.18518755]

>>18518577
> Most notable is Evola claiming that the King in our times must be of the warrior caste (a necessary deviation from the primordial Tradition), while Guenon maintained that the King must be of the sacerdotal caste, which is technically correct

It's funny how wrong this is on so many levels, considering even the points that Guénon makes of Melchizedek in his "King of the World" and especially the Hyperborean function of the Pole that serves 2 functions as Priest-King and the heraldic colors of Red & White that are connected with such function (Red = Kshatriya, White = Brahmin).

Even Evola agrees with this, but then again, you have no understanding what the Hyperborean or Primordial Tradition is because you are a orientialist who happens to like Vedanta and reads only Guénon's works that deal directly (or indirectly) with Hinduism.

[Anonymous No.18518772]

>>18518699
Evola deals with Hyperborea probably more than Guénon. It's the matter of Primordial Tradition, that what perennialism is about.

People who think Evola somehow was considering Ksarithya as some sort of 'highest realization or higher quality' must be absolutely fucking retarded. See this post for starters
>>18518755

It is a question of primordial tradition. The function of Melchizedek as Priest-King is precisely that and the two qualities are united and balanced in that so as to grant genuine Tradition to either function.

[Anonymous No.18518781]

>>18518660
>Guénon failed.
Aren't you the guy with the "counter-initiation"?

[Anonymous No.18518807]

>>18518660
>>The Tantras deny the value of knowledge
This is not even true and it's an example of Evola mischaracterizing the source material he draws from, in Tantra action is used as a means to attain knowledge of God, action is not an end in itself. In Kashmir Shaivism for example, the whole point is to reach Pratyabhijna, 'Self-recognition', itself a form of knowledge in the form of spiritual realization.

>Evola then continues:
>After all, it is an Upanishadic theme that:
The Upanishads consistently say that only knowledge leads to immortality/liberation

[Anonymous No.18518813]

>>18518807
I feel sorry for you. Knowledge as the Summit of the Universe? Counter-initiation alert here, folks.

[Anonymous No.18518827]

>>18518600
Yes, I think Evola believed that the Roman Empire was the last sacred empire carrying the torch of the primordial tradition, albeit in a deviated form, given the superiority of the warrior over the priest at the pinnacle of the hierarchy. Later Empires sought to retain the legacy of the Roman but ultimately failed. Evola wanted a rekindled Roman Empire (i.e., one founded on superior principles based around a warrior aristocracy) to save the West and believed this was the only way.

Guenon recognised the deviation from the primordial tradition and was not as interested, although I think he would admit that such deviations would be necessary given the times, although I'm not sure. Again, I see their main "disagreements" arising from a difference in worldview or caste, both are true depending on the frame of reference, Guenon's being technically correct but pedantic or "impractical".

[Anonymous No.18518840]

>>18518827
Yeah that's true and Evola always talked about how great the Ghibelline ideal of the Holy Roman Empire was as well.
Guenon actually talks about this in OP's book but says that it was never realized in practice.

[Anonymous No.18518847]

is present day Iran the most /trad/ structured society?

[Anonymous No.18518856]

>>18518847
Yeah and shitholes like Pakistan

[Anonymous No.18518872]

>>18518755
>>18518772
What is your point here?

[Anonymous No.18518878]

>>18518856
but Pakistan doesn't have the spiritual authority like the Ayatollah does it?

[Anonymous No.18518891]

>>18518872
Because you fucking retards are claiming that Evola was somehow arguing that Ksatriya is superior to Brahmin and try make some sort of Ksatriya vs Brahmin dualism battle between the two men, while Evola and Guénon were both concerned about Hyperborea, Evola even more so.

[Anonymous No.18518907]

>>18518891
>Because you fucking retards are claiming that Evola was somehow arguing that Ksatriya is superior to Brahmin
Not at all.

[Anonymous No.18518914]

>>18518891
Nobody is arguing that, calm down.

[Anonymous No.18518920]

>>18518891
We don't even know that much about Hyperborea, and the "hyperborean tradition" is dead.

[Anonymous No.18518930]

>>18518891
he did make some arguments for this in western civilization though

[Anonymous No.18518932]

>>18518920
No, it went "underground" and shall return.

[Anonymous No.18518939]

>>18518755
not him, but have you read Guenon’s books on pure metaphysics or do you ignore those and just read his other works? If liking Hindu philosophy makes someone an orientalist (it doesn’t) then you are calling Guenon one

[Anonymous No.18518961]

>>18518930
But those books are out of context and concern RAW SURVIVAL in Kali-Yuga

Evola talks about surviving dissolutive influences of Kali-Yuga and remaining vigilant, virile, vir (whatever) in face of hostile forces

But this has nothing to do with Evola viewing path of action or 'heroic' vira -type of mentality superior to that of contemplation inherently, after all, the importance he puts to Hyperborea and tries to find Hyperborean elements in Western traditions speaks that he was still longing for Primordial Tradition - not unlike Guénon

People here want to make some anime out of few letters exchanged between Evola and Guénon, and seem to ignore the vast material of literature both of these authors wrote during their life.

[Anonymous No.18518966]

>>18518939
The problem is that you have an 'aesthetic' preference to hinduism and similar exotic fascination that orientialists have. This is why you dislike Hermeticism for example.

[Anonymous No.18518971]

>>18518930
I believe he argued that the role of King and the direct link to the divine would have to come from the warrior caste as it stands now, not from the priests as per the Primordial Tradition. He wasn't arguing that warriors were superior to priests. I dont know what that guy is so upset about, he is too emotional.

[Anonymous No.18518977]

>>18518300
Based. Far better ideas than anything you'll find in Guenon or Evola.

[Anonymous No.18518982]

>>18518971
>I believe he argued that the role of King and the direct link to the divine would have to come from the warrior caste as it stands now, not from the priests as per the Primordial Tradition.

Again, you seem to misunderstand the role of Melchizedek in regards to these both functions. Read King of the World again.

[Anonymous No.18518994]

>>18518966
> The problem is that you have an 'aesthetic' preference to hinduism and similar exotic fascination that orientialists have
Im not the other poster who you accused of only studying Hinduism and not reading Guenon’s other stuff, but even if I was, what is the problem with simultaneously appreciating something on both an aesthetic and intellectual level?
>This is why you dislike Hermeticism for example.
who said anything about me or who you think I am disliking Hermeticism? What is the basis of these assumptions?

[Anonymous No.18518996]

>>18518966
I'm "that guy" and 100% prefer Hermeticism. If you are practicing, it seems like you are doing a poor job of "fixing the waters," getting so worked up and throwing insults without understanding what positions people are taking.

[Anonymous No.18518997]

>>18518971
>>18518961
as I stated here >>18518652 >>18518600, even Guenon accepts the Imperial Roman hierarchy as legitimate. However, Guenon seems to agree more for Dante's La Monarchia hierarchy and Hindu hierarchy compared to Evola's Imperial Rome.
ultimately, there isn't a single solution to everything.

[Anonymous No.18519014]

>>18518920
>We don't even know that much about Hyperborea, and the "hyperborean tradition" is dead.

Confirmed for never having read Guénon's chapter "Supreme Center concealed during Kali-Yuga" in King of the World

But then again, that is expecte from hindu orientalist exoticist Guénonian.

[Anonymous No.18519019]

>>18518966
Also, why did you avoid answering the question? Do you not feel comfortable being honest? Please tell us, have you read “Man and His Becoming According to the Vedanta”, “The Symbolism of the Cross” or “Multiple States of the Being”?

If so, what did you think about them, if not, why didn’t you read them despite your evident fascination with Guenon? You seem to have an unusual distaste for something that was a central focus of Guenon’s writings.

[Anonymous No.18519028]

>>18514361
Another day, another guenon shill thread

[Anonymous No.18519030]

>>18514612
For once Guenon agrees with the lolberts

[Anonymous No.18519035]

>>18519028
Another day, another tranny/marxist seething

[Anonymous No.18519037]

>>18519028
>oy vey!

[Anonymous No.18519044]

>>18519014
>that is expecte from hindu orientalist exoticist Guénonian.
What is even the point of tossing these insults when Guenon bases his whole conception of metaphysics on Hinduism and uses it as the common thread to which he relates everything else concerning metaphysical knowledge? It’s like you haven’t even read him

[Anonymous No.18519052]

>>18519019
You are now projectin hard here my friend.

Most of Guénon and /traditionalism/ generals here have been mostly about Hinduism and it is clear that it is the only subject you delight participating in.

I have read all of Guénon's works, his letters and even literature that is related to Guénon indirectly like (René Guénon et les sept tours du diable)

Posts like this >>18518920 just reveal your ignorance that you really are only interested in a small subject matter of Guénon, namely those areas that satisfy your pathetic appetite as some sort of armchair advaita vedantist.

[Anonymous No.18519056]

>>18518994
>>18519019
That poster seems a little incoherent. I question their motives.

[Anonymous No.18519057]

>>18514511
I would destroy his butthole, in minecraft

[Anonymous No.18519062]

>>18514361
If you are unhappy with your station and feel you deserve a more powerful position, then play this world's game. Don't use traditionalism or whatever other ideology to merely take pleasure in affirming that you are powerless.

[Anonymous No.18519068]

>>18519056
I'm sorry are you some sort of "Referee of Traditionalism" here? What's the point of contributing some sort of meta-discussion if you cannot even argue any points what you find sus in those posts? Fucking faggot child

[Anonymous No.18519076]

>>18519044
I concur. Like I said, I question their motives. At the very least, the incoherence and belligerence reveals their base nature, Guenon would not be impressed. I don't think it is impossible that they are a leftist trying to sow division and confusion...

[Anonymous No.18519090]

>>18519068
You aren't contributing much, you're just biting people's heads off, throwing labels around, making bizarre assumptions and not even getting your points across. You don't seem very enlightened. Sorry if you're being genuine, but I have my doubts.

[Anonymous No.18519096]

>>18519062
Traditionalism does the opposite.

[Anonymous No.18519102]

>>18519062
don't post ITT if you haven't read Guenon you massive faggot

[Anonymous No.18519116]

>>18519090
But you haven't contributed anything to this discussion

You claim nonsense like this >>18518920

Which is in direct contradiction with Guénon's chapter in his book 'King of the World' that explicitly states that the 'Supreme Centre (that IS Hyperborea) is concealed during Kali-Yuga'

This is not a common theme in this thread, but in other threads too, where you claim some sort of "Guénon never said that."

And then people provide you the exact chapters where Guénon literally says the very thing your only comeback is "Yeah, but Guénon did not mean it that way"

But you don't provide any sort of coherent arguments, it seems you are like totally oblivious to these things yourself.

That's why I suspect you are a troll, or some sort of a man who reads the literature written by Guénon, but does not understand even in the slightest what is being said.

[Anonymous No.18519129]

>>18519052
Ah but you see it you who are confused here, see pic related
> and it is clear that it is the only subject you delight participating in.
how would you know that when the board is anonymous? How would you ever know which posts in fiction threads and other threads talking about other subjects are mine or not if Hinduism is not being mentioned in them? If I thought irrationally as you do, I would conclude that you go on /lit/ to solely post about counter-tradition, but that’s an irrational assumption because I dont know what other topics you post about, and the same is true of what you know about other posters

> armchair advaita vedantist
If this is true of me or any other anon on /lit/, it’s 10,000 times more true of Guenon himself, who was perhaps the most prominent proponent of traditional Advaita Vedanta in the west in the first half of the 21st century

[Anonymous No.18519136]

>>18519096
How?

[Anonymous No.18519152]

>>18519129
You are a Troll.

[Anonymous No.18519181]

>>18519152
How so? Everything I said was true. Maybe if you feel like I’m trolling you personally its because what Im saying is causing cognitive dissonance for you when you realize that Guenon was the biggest armchair exponent of Advaita who ever lived (he was an armchair exponent because he was never initiated into it, which can only be done by becoming a sannyasin, i.e. ascetic monk) and so its causing cognitive dissonance when all the insults you toss at me apply 10,000 times more to Guenon himself.

[Anonymous No.18519201]

>>18519181
You seem to sow unecessary discord in these threads, you are more than often repeating this old canard:
>how would you know that when the board is anonymous?

I suspect you post with multiple different "identities" (not Trips, thank god) and reply to yourself and reply to others.

I don't know what your motivation is. Perhaps you think that all discussion is good discussion, so as to keep the thread/discussion alive and thus more "advertisement" for Guénon etc.

[Anonymous No.18519204]

>>18518672
>have any of you dedicated yourselves to a spiritual path
No and I don't plan to, I disagree with Guenon on this.

[Anonymous No.18519213]

Why did Guenon dislike Jung so much?
>muh reducing spirituality to the psychological
Yes, and? There is obviously a large psychological component to the spiritual experience because of its inherent subjectivity. This does not mean that the metaphysical does not exist, but rather, that it can be understood by understanding ourselves. Reading Jung has brought me closer to spirituality than anything else.

[Anonymous No.18519226]

>>18519201
>You seem to sow unecessary discord in these threads,
I'm not the one attacking others, you are the one attacking people for not being singularly focused on the aspect of Guenon's writings which interest you most. On the other hand, the people who enjoy the aspects of Guenon's writings that deal with metaphysics and Hinduism have no problem also talking about counter-initiation, even if it's not what they find most interesting. It's only you who are attacking other readers of Guenon here, you are the real sower of discord when you do this anon.

[Anonymous No.18519229]

There is so much confusion among guenonians in this thread

[Anonymous No.18519245]

>>18519213
>inherent subjectivity.
By subjective do you mean "occurring to a conscious subject" or subjective as in "not connected with any objective reality outside of one's mind, not participating in some already-existent reality or truth which exists independent of our ability to realize it"?

If it's the latter than what you are saying amounts to a denial of man's ability to directly know supersensuous/divine realities. You can correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to be an implicitly materialist attitude towards religion that severs the connection of man's intellect with any higher things that most ancients accepted as existent.

[Anonymous No.18519270]

>>18515037
CHRISTIANS ARE SO POSSESSIVE

[Anonymous No.18519275]

>>18519245
There was a discussion about this yesterday in another thread.
I mean the latter but not in the way you expressed it: it does seem like spiritual experiences are connected to an objective reality outside of the mind, but the fact that empiricism does not constitute a valid model to analyze these experiences indicates that the subject's own psychology and interpretation of things have a large role to play.
I'm not a materialist and I pay no heed to any kind of materialist or physicalist reductionist philosophy. I believe there exists an ontologically independent, superior reality above this one, but I also believe that it does not play by the same rules as the material world.

[Anonymous No.18519278]

>>18519226
I admit that my main interest is hyperborea, but it is also synonymous with Primordial Tradition and that is quite frankly what traditionalism/perennialism is about.

[Anonymous No.18519304]

>>18519278
>Primordial Tradition and that is quite frankly what traditionalism/perennialism is about.
The metaphysical doctrine of the historical Tradition which it preserves and communicates to people throughout the ages is the things like Vedanta, Sufi doctrine, Taoism, absent these metaphysical doctrines/teachings there is no Tradition but merely a hollow shell, the corporeal elements of Tradition composed of people and groups living in certain times are nothing more than a vessel which carries this teaching which is eternal. So, there is no reason whatsoever to attack people for finding these doctrines interesting and for discussing them, because they are focusing on the essential contents of the vessel itself which is the whole purpose of the vessel and the thing from which the vessel derives its purpose and legitimacy.

[Anonymous No.18519329]

>>18519052
I'm new to /lit/ and to Guenon, I have only read what others have said about him but I am interested to learn more so I have downloaded his collected works. Can you or anybody else recommend a rough reading order? I am mainly interested in his understanding of Islam but also want to understand his viewpoint overall, thanks

[Anonymous No.18519340]

>>18519226
>st. On the other hand, the people who enjoy the aspects of Guenon's writings that deal with metaphysics and Hinduism have no problem also talking about counter-initiation, even if it's not what they find most interesting.

The problem to talk about counter-initiation is the fundamentalist attitude people here have when it comes to Guénon's writings about counter-initiation.

Last time someone pointed out that (modern) Freemasonry has very counter-initiatic elements as a whole with the doctrines of Universal Brotherhood etc.

This discussion was killed this instant with some sort of "Guénon considered Freemasonry authentic, therefore, it is good and immune to counter-initiation"

Same type of 'open discussion' was instantly killed when it came to Catholicism few threads ago. "Catholicism cannot be counter-initiation because it is Traditional". I understand that counter-initiation, for many here, is some sort of "open attack" against all religion, but when it comes to even Christian church fathers, the aim of "counter-initiation" is not some sort of total destruction of Christianity (or Islam for that matters), Christian churches or Islamic Mosques, Christian monuments and Abrahamic practicioners themselves, but rather, the aim of false prophets and their pneuma akatharton (unclean spirit) being meant as a corrupting influence and becoming a synonymous as a symptom of a fallen, apostate Christianity which leads people "of true faith" astray as did those false prophets of the Old Testament where pseudoprophetai ("false prophets") claim to speak in the name of Yahweh, but are possessed by an "unclean spirit".

Someone went on to argue that only pseudo-religious organizations like Theosophy (that are made from 'scratch') can be counter-initiatory. Other organizations cannot be counter-initiatic.

But what can then be said of Catholic Church when even people like Cardinal Vigano who inside the church observe the following:
>As is now clear, the one who occupies the Chair of Peter has betrayed his role from the very beginning in order to defend and promote the globalist ideology, supporting the agenda of the deep church, who chose him from its ranks.
And also:
>Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò reaffirmed that “Rome will lose the Faith,” and the Church is currently in Eclipse will a Counter-Magisterium is in place

Do you just outright deny these possibilities and especially the quite heretical reforms that happened after "Vatican II" and certain "Novus Ordo" reforms? (That have quite uncanny resemblence to 'New Order' in terms of etymology)

This is why I got quite mad few threads ago, because all genuine and honest discussion was downplayed instantly by simply suggesting that Traditional Religions (like Catholicis) might be suspectible to Corruption and Subversion as this Yuga/Cycle races towards its End. (Or as Guénon says, the End of the World can never be nothing else than End of an Illusion)

[Anonymous No.18519354]

>>18519329
There has been good "infographics" made, I sadly do not have the image saved on my computer. But it was in my opinion, pretty good one with "directions" .

[Anonymous No.18519360]

>>18519340
>Guénon considered Freemasonry authentic,
He did?
Does that mean if I join a lodge I can receive a genuine initiation? I'm not American by the way.

[Anonymous No.18519362]

>>18519329
>>18519354
Oh I found it.

I think some may argue it's not perfect, but in my opinion, you can't go much wrong with this one.

[Anonymous No.18519369]

>>18519362
Thank you anon

[Anonymous No.18519370]

>>18519362
I personally would then again argue that "King of the World" is Guénon's perhaps most important book, but that is just my personal opinion and it is pretty much "bottom" on this list. But then again, many people have very different interests (and perhaps motives) inside "perennialist" literature.

[Anonymous No.18519382]

>>18519362
it says start with hindu doctrines up to page 118 or whatever, but I would start with Crisis of the Modern World -> East and West -> Reign of Quantity
From there you have many possible routes depending on what interests you
>>18519370
based fellow King of the World appreciator
that's my fav book too

[Anonymous No.18519396]

>>18519362
>>18519370
>>18519382
I noticed this guide doesn't have Insights into Islamic Esoterism and Taoism. Would you recommend reading this, and roughly where in the order would you suggest reading it?

[Anonymous No.18519403]

>>18519396
around the same time as esoterism of dante
get through core intro Guenon as I stated here >>18519382
then follow whatever path you wish

[Anonymous No.18519405]

>>18519396
>>18519403
one more thing, starting with Against the Modern World and The Essential Rene Guenon is a good option too

[Anonymous No.18519410]

>>18519403
>>18519405
Perfect, thank you

[Anonymous No.18519414]

>>18519396
>Would you recommend reading this, and roughly where in the order would you suggest reading it?
After reading a good amount of his books on Initiation and metaphysics.

Also, the guide doesn't make this clear, but "Man and His Becoming According to the Vedanta" (published in 1925) should be read before "The Symbolism of the Cross (published in 1931). The latter references the former pretty often and at times relies on the reader already having an understanding of topics covered in "Man and His Becoming"

[Anonymous No.18519421]

>>18519396
As I said, it is hard to give any sort of coherent order how one should approach Guénon/Perennialism

If I would have to start all over again, maybe the most logical fashion would be to start with pure Symbolism.

Symbols of Sacred Science, Symbolism of the Cross (especially for Polar symbolism and symbolism of the Pole) and then maybe read Traditional Forms and Cosmic Cycles (that is mostly disconnected articles about Atlantis, Hyperborea) etc. then read King of the World

I would do it this way, because in my opinion these are the works that deal the most closely to Hyperborea and Primordial Tradition.

Of course I did not start this way, but in my opinion those later book deal with "latter cycles" and latter, more historical traditions, when those books mentioned deal with that which quite honestly predate History, as history can be said to have its beginning in East-West horizontal axis (and Atlantic catasthrope/Deluge) when Hyperborea is vertical and in the North as the Primordial Tradition/Centre.

This is just my take.

[Anonymous No.18519422]

>>18514795
i'll do it if we get 10 total anons to join us

[Anonymous No.18519429]

>>18519340
>This discussion was killed this instant with some sort of "Guénon considered Freemasonry authentic
Didn't Guenon write about certain branches of masonry like the American type being compromised? That would imply he thought not all masonry was infallible.

[Anonymous No.18519435]

>>18519396
it's also missing is book on Freemasonry

[Anonymous No.18519446]

>>18518093
Interested in this too

[Anonymous No.18519453]

>>18519275
>I believe there exists an ontologically independent, superior reality above this on
Wouldn't then it be more accurate to say religious experience/realization is sometimes "partially subjective" then? Subjective insofar as one's own mind and presumptions impart their own character to it, but not completely subjective insofar as there is a genuine connection made with something that is above?

[Anonymous No.18519454]

>>18519213
he wrote a chapter on why he's against psychoanalysis in Reign of Quantity. Most of it applies to Freud but he mentions Jung in other places too.

[Anonymous No.18519461]

>>18514556
By spamming garbage.

[Anonymous No.18519466]

>>18519454

>As for Carl Jung, his influence unfortunately is gaining ground everywhere, in France as in Italy and Switzerland, and he seems to me still more dangerous than Freud because of his pseudo-spiritual pretense. Recently I had to write an article about the deformations of the very idea of Tradition provoked by his theory of the “collective unconscious”.

https://www.gornahoor.net/?p=4693

Letters from Guenon to Evola (X)
29 October 1949
Cairo, Egypt

[Anonymous No.18519470]

>>18514795
>>18519422
I'm interested as well

[Anonymous No.18519474]

>>18519466
is gornahoor the best /trad/ blog or what? cologero runs laps around us.

anyways, I just read reign of quantity the other day and guenon outright calls it 'satanic'
>>18519470
based

[Anonymous No.18519485]

>>18519429
Most certainly Guénon implies this, but this started who argument last time "GUÉNON NEVER SAID THAT! AMERICAN MASONRY IS BASED! THE FREEMASONIC TRADITION IS AUTHENTIC! IT'S THE COUNTER-INITIATION SHILL TRYING TO SOW DISCORD AMONG THE BRETHREN! HE IS BEWITCHING THE /TRAD/ BRETHREN!"

In my opinion, Guénon most certainly implies this even in Reign of Quantity by this passage:
>10. Before leaving the subject of the Great Pyramid, attention should be drawn to another modern fantasy connected with it: some people attach much importance to the fact that it was never finished; the summit is in fact missing, but all that can be said for certain about it is that the most ancient authors whose evidence is available, but who are nevertheless relatively recent, all describe it as truncated, as it is today; but it is a long step from this to the claim, as expressed word for word by an occultist, that 'the hidden symbolism of the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures is directly related to events that took place in the course of the building of the Great Pyramid'; indeed, this is another assertion that seems singularly lacking in plausibility on all counts! It is a strange fact that the official seal of the United States bears the truncated pyramid, and over it is a triangle with rays, separated and isolated from it by a surrounding circle of clouds, but apparently intended to replace the summit. There are other decidedly strange details in this seal as well, and the 'pseudo-initiatic' organizations rampant in America try to make good use of them by interpreting them in conformity with their own 'doctrines'; they certainly seem to indicate an intervention by suspicious influences: thus, the number of the courses of the Pyramid is thirteen (this number reappearing somewhat insistently in other features, notably that of the letters of which the motto E pluribus unum is composed) and is alleged to correspond to th.e number of the tribes of Israel (the two half-tribes of the sons of Joseph being counted separately), and no doubt this has some connection with the real origin of the 'prophecies of the Great Pyramid', which, as we have seen, tend to treat the Pyramid as a sort of 'Judeo-Christian' monument, for reasons that are somewhat obscure

This is a footnote from the Chapter 37.

We can certainly talk about this topic, but as I said, last time I tried to talk about it the discussion was killed instantly by "Guénon was a (ex)-Freemason and held Masonry in high regard, therefore it is Good and cannot be counter-initiatory. Pbuh" or something along those lines.

[Anonymous No.18519493]

>>18519485
in defense of the American masons, Guenon says that they are superior to their English counterparts

[Anonymous No.18519497]

>>18519485
I personally believe modern Freemasonry in the United States is compromised by counter-initiation or those "pseudo-initiatic' organizations rampant in America", perhaps even since the time of Guénon was speculating the connections between the two. But even more so now.

[Anonymous No.18519544]

>>18519453
It is partially subjective insofar as the subjective experience does not appear out of nowhere but is linked to an objective reality, yes.
>>18519454
Why is he against it exactly? I don't have the book.
>>18519466
I don't get why he hates Jung so much. The collective unconscious and the archetypes make sense and are pretty much an extension of platonism.

[Anonymous No.18519561]

>>18519544
https://monoskop.org/images/4/48/Gu%C3%A9non_Ren%C3%A9_The_Reign_of_Quantity_and_the_Signs_of_The_Times_2001.pdf

page 240 on the PDF (chapter 34)

[Anonymous No.18519564]

>>18519485
Which lodge was Guenon a member of? The French GLNF?

[Anonymous No.18519565]

>>18519544
>Why is he against it exactly? I don't have the book.
That whole chapter can be read here

https://ignotascintilla.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/renc3a9-guc3a9non-the-misdeeds-of-psychoanalysis.pdf

>>18519544
> The collective unconscious and the archetypes make sense and are pretty much an extension of platonism.
I wonder if some anon can find that article for us, I assume its one that was just published in a journal and not in any of his books

[Anonymous No.18519570]

>>18514795
>>18519422
alright im in
Let's do it at 11:30 AM ET sharp together

[Anonymous No.18519572]

>>18519544
>I don't get why he hates Jung so much. The collective unconscious and the archetypes make sense and are pretty much an extension of platonism.

By confusing the "planes" further, Jungian symbolism syncretizes different forms of the "sacred", and assuming that they were originally even aware of true Spiritual ways, and by mixing these "sacred" things with psychic is to relativize and subjectivize them and thus drive everything down to the psychic level while sealing off access to the Spirit. Gods as psychic/genetic Archetypes or something etc. There is no room for Spirit in these equations, it is all body and psyche (and psyche as just electric animanistic organ of the body as some sort of electro-magnetic biomechanical 'ghost in the machine').

This is my personal take on the matter, some Jungians may argue otherwise.

[Anonymous No.18519581]

>>18519570
wouldn't you have to go recite the shahada and begin following sharia and work on meeting a Nashqbandi teacher in person to participate in the Nashqbandi tariqa for real?

[Anonymous No.18519589]

>>18519564
I believe Guenon was himself a member of several "clandestine" Masonic lodges, though he may have regularized his status later in life. I am honestly not that informed what is the most 'authentic' Masonry in terms of lineages considering the Continental Freemasonry vs Grand Lodge of England. The English lodges consider the continental ones "irregular".

[Anonymous No.18519593]

>>18519581
this is just a preliminary step so we can participate virtually until they allow IRL initiation due to covid

[Anonymous No.18519598]

>>18519561
His main criticism here is that psychoanalysis comes from a place of materialism but I said earlier that this is a misinterpretation. What he says about the focus on the subconscious is essentially a criticism of freudian psychoanalysis, since Jung focuses rather on the unconscious; Guenon is wrong to say that the domain of psychology is not extended upward, since the focus of jungian individuation is to rise above (just see all the alchemical/hermetic terminology Jung borrowed, and it'll make it obvious that his system is not a descent into the subconscious but, if anything, an ascent or a sublimation to/of the superconscious).
All in all I don't agree that the process of psychoanalysis (again, Jungian, I think Freud was wrong about most things) leads to the development of what Guenon calls an "inferior psychism" since re-ascent is definitely a part of the process. Guenon compares it to a sacrament of evil and seems to assume psychoanalysis is initiatic, when it never really claimed to be. There is no psychoanalytic initiation.

[Anonymous No.18519600]

>>18518300
>destroys trads
nothing personal kid

[Anonymous No.18519601]

>>18519593
>>18519581
Don't let him touch you irl

[Anonymous No.18519609]

>>18519601
I already led a tibetan buddhist monk give me a magnetic massage last weekend
it was amazing. I feel... electric...

[Anonymous No.18519612]

>>18519598
>There is no psychoanalytic initiation.
What if that function is just fulfilled by getting a Ph.D in psychoanalysis?

[Anonymous No.18519619]

>>18519612
I don't think so. I think Guenon tries to make everything fit into his framework, but it just doesn't make much sense to apply the idea of initiation to psychoanalysis.
I understand the value of initiation, but I don't think such a black and white view on the matter leads anywhere.

[Anonymous No.18519622]

>>18519609
Honestly though, the most satanic counter-initiatic people are New Agey Reiki practicioners that also have a hard-on for acupuncture.

It's like sticking needles into Voodoo dolls, but they are opening and closing energy vortexes with real humans.

[Anonymous No.18519641]

>>18519572
Where is the syncretism? Jung was against a syncretic interpretation of religion, seeing as he discouraged westerners from pursuing eastern religions for example (but encouraged an adaptation of eastern exoterism to western sensibilities).
>relativize and subjectivize them
But they are already subjective. See >>18519275
Subjective interpretation is inevitable, why would it seal off access to the Spirit?
I think you're misinterpreting: Jung called the symbols archetypal, but never made the claim that metaphysical reality could itself be reduced to psychic phenomena. The representation is distinct from the reality, it is a mere subjective "emanation" of it.

[Anonymous No.18519648]

>>18519609
If I would want to seal off all my connections to the divine in this life and what may be beyond I would probably first go to a Reiki-practicioner or acupuncturist so as to "open" the vortexes near my cranium

After this pop few doses of acid and head out to the nearest Kalachakra-initiation, maybe contact that Sufipathoflove Sheik and see what we can work out.

After that a simple Geiger reading of your body should reveal what spiritually infectious fucking unstable trans-plutonic element your whole being has become, I honestly believe you could read some radioactivity from the organism after those steps

One would become like an real life orgone accumulator and act as a siphon to draw constantly some astral and infra-psychic vampiric leeches and other harmful energies from the Void

[Anonymous No.18519649]

>>18519589
Hm, I'd be interested in freemasonry since I have several masons in the family but I wouldn't want to get into a "corrupted" lodge.

[Anonymous No.18519653]

So much counter-initiation in this thread, I don't even know from where to begin the refutations...

[Anonymous No.18519665]

>>18519648
>tfw I went to an acupuncturist or whatever they're called when I was around 15 because of a sweating problem and he stuck a needle on the top of my head
He told me to come back because he wasn't finished after the first session but I never did. Am I fucked?

[Anonymous No.18519669]

>>18519648
this is my plan
kek

[Anonymous No.18519732]

>>18519648
hey greco-french bro
did I tell you the tibetans rejected me?

[Anonymous No.18519744]

after reading Crisis of the Modern World and East & West, I finally realized Guenon's gameplan
it's basically what the chinks do with IP theft in America - except he says Westerners should steal traditions from the East.
based...

[Anonymous No.18519761]

>>18519732
Did they give you a reason why?

[Anonymous No.18519764]

>>18519761
muh covid
I was particularly interested in learning tibetan yoga

[Anonymous No.18519768]

>>18519732
Yes you mentioned this.

I used to attend "public" lectures of Theosophists in my city 10 years ago, out of curiosity. Most of the speakers were old ladies in their 60s, 70s

Was not much counter-initiation there, they mostly talked about chakras, crystals and holistic healing. I was also offered some weird tea (refused it) and some other small food like sandwiches (refused them too) and there was some question hour after the lecture if one wanted to get more info of Theosophical Society

Left there quite disgusted honestly. 90% of the audience there were women too. All in all, neo-Theosophist seem pretty much harmless old women and Karens who believe in energy healing and angels

But then again, invocations of these beings like "Sanat Kumara" are still in the end ushering in the Theosophical Maitreya, that is no other than the Antichrist or Daijal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXcEkSXPFSc

[Anonymous No.18519771]

>>18519665
No.

[Anonymous No.18519800]

>>18519768
I've seen a few theosophical society videos online (namely Mitch Horowitz and his Secret Destiny of America talks) and the audience was full of old ladies in their 60s and 70s, as you mentioned.
the guy just seemed like a pseud.

what do you think of Manly P Hall?

[Anonymous No.18519825]

>>18519800
>what do you think of Manly P Hall?

The strange thing is that I have read small passages of his here and there, and they seem quite lucid indeed. Am I wrong thinking/assuming that he wrote his books in some sort of mediumistic trance?

I honeslty don't know enough about him to say anything definite, he seems kind of an American Rudolf Steiner, but I may be wrong, that is just an impression of mine of his

[Anonymous No.18519941]

>>18514361
How much does Traditionalism borrow from Platonic thought? Furthermore, is it possible to be spiritual while rejecting Platonism?

Apologies for the juvenile questions. I'm new to philosophy and esotericism.

[Anonymous No.18519952]

>>18519941
>is it possible to be spiritual while rejecting Platonism?
Buddhism is inherently anti-platonic. I think they're wrong about everything but it's undeniably a spiritual path.

[Anonymous No.18519957]

>>18519800
>>18519764
One possibly counter-initiatic organization I also encountered over 12 years ago was pic related
>To become a member one must agree with the seven principles of the Star of Azazel and with the three theosophical articles. Our society differs from the regular theosophical occultism by the fact that we follow a form of Satanic philosophy.

Friend of a friend of mine was a member and he would have given me a recommendation to this "Theosophical" organization.

I cut all contact with this person and he had also given me some books and CDs of his (or part of a trade, I used to trade music and obscure books back in the day). I threw them to trash after learning about counter-init

[Anonymous No.18519975]

>>18519768
What is up with women's attraction to Theosophy, and why were all of their leaders women?

[Anonymous No.18519985]

>>18519975
If you read Theosophy: History of a Pseudo-Religion, Guénon at least implies that Blavatsky was secretly controlled by Henry Steel Olcott and other (male) Masons. I am not bothered to dig the relevant passages, but I am 100% sure it is implied there.

I honestly believe women are more easily controlled, especially in positions of power, by people/forces "behind the curtain" and more suspectible for manipulation.

[Anonymous No.18519993]

>>18519952
>Buddhism is inherently anti-platonic
Buddhist nirvana is described very similarly to the deduction of the Neoplatonic One, or the One spoken about in Parmenides, if you didn't realize (it is beyond both Being and Becoming, perception and non-perception, consciousness and non-consciousness). I really don't want to engage in another Buddhism vs Platonism spat like in the Platonist general, because there are meaningful differences between the content of the two schools and it's valid not to conflate the two too much, but there is a lot more similarity than you may think, which is why I think Guenon ended up coming around to Buddhism after he learnt more about it.

As for >>18519941, the answer is basically yes. Guenon was not a Platonist in that he didn't adhere to every single established Platonic tenet. He considered Plato's obsession with pure reason and dialectic to be a deterioration, although not a complete deterioration, due to a lack of positive influence in Greece at the time. And this is despite the fact that, as another anon mentioned, Plato was indeed initiated into the mysteries and has mystic themes all throughout his dialogues.

[Anonymous No.18520032]

>>18519993
Buddhism is nominalist though, or rather, rejects platonic realism in that there are no absolute truths accessible through reason, only provisional "truths" (two truths doctrine). I also don't see how you could reconcile sunyata with platonism.

[Anonymous No.18520045]

>>18519975
>>18519985

Notice also how closely Leadbeater was associated with Mrs. Beasant (who inherited the "throne" of Blavatsky after Blavatsky's death) similar to Blavatsky-Olcott relationship.

Leadbeater, like Olcott, were both Freemasons, despite Theosophical books of Blavatsky contain very anti-Masonic elements.

I honestly believe these women like Blavatsky, Beasant were just figureheads and the true "forces" behind TS were much more 'sinister' and politically motivated. The whole pseudo-spiritualism seems like a facade.

[Anonymous No.18520057]

>>18520032
>I also don't see how you could reconcile sunyata with platonism.
If you had to for some reason you could try align Yogacara, Jonang, or Shingon with Neoplatonism.

[Anonymous No.18520134]

>>18520032
The nominalist and realist distinctions aren't relevant to Buddhism, they are constructions of modern philosophy. In terms of genuine and higher esoteric content, the "realism" or "nominalism" of forms which profane academics deal with tends to lose its relevance. Husserl is probably the closest modern academic type of philosopher to getting this question right.
Anyhow, there are additionally specific parts of the main texts in which Buddha affirms the existence of the "form-world" as one stage above and distinct from samsara, and one stage below the "formless world." If you really want, I can quote the relevant sutta in a minute. Another important thing to note about the philosophical aspects of Buddhism is that it is primarily a philosophy of practice, anything that is explicitly taught, apart from the basic truth, which is that "all conditioned existence is unsatisfactory" (Buddha explicitly affirms that this is his only existential assertion apart from practical teachings in multiple places), is essentially just a tool to free the mind from dialectical (rationalistic) thinking and speculation (or other problematic psychological tendencies which lead to mental clinging), which is called a "demon", because it traps the mind in pointless pursuits like the modern academic kind.
So, if you've read the Buddhist canon which I'm assuming you have, you might be confused because Buddha affirms and denies so many contradictory beliefs. He neither affirms nor denies the soul/self, he affirms samsara, affirms a form-world and affirms a world-beyond-form, among many other affirmations or refusals to say. In the end, Buddha's philosophy cannot be classified easily at all in the modern academic sense. The only thing that you can say, with respect to what you claimed about reason, is that it does discard it as a useful faculty for enlightenment. I think he was right to do so given the environment of India at the time (with respect to the character of brahmins), and this aspect can't be removed from Buddhist doctrine, but I don't believe, in general, it rules out Platonism and Buddhism having the same goals, or at least similar conceptions of those goals. It does rule out any merging of them as paths, however.

[Anonymous No.18520202]

>>18520134
Informative post, I don't have much to say in response, but
>they are constructions of modern philosophy.
The problem of universals definitely isn't a construction of modern philosophy, I'm not sure what you mean by this.
I'm far from having read the entire Buddhist canon because it's way too long and I'm not satisfied with its premise (the focus on dukkha) therefore I didn't dig much deeper after reading the Dhammapada, MN, a few other suttas and commentaries, and the main Mahayana sutras. Nagarjuna's doctrine and the Heart and Diamond sutras struck me as relativistic by the way they described conditioned existence
>So you should view this fleeting world —
>A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream,
>A flash of lightening in a summer cloud,
>A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
You can equate Nirvana to the One, but I see no equivalent to, say, the Nous, in a system like Mahayana where everything that is conditioned (this should include the Forms) is ephemeral and illusory.
>rules out Platonism and Buddhism having the same goals
Well, the goal of Buddhism is simply the removal of dukkha. Platonism has no such focus on dissatisfaction/sorrow and its link with conditioned existence. I believe the union with the One is also more akin to theopoesis than to the pure extinction of Nirvana, and platonism being much less ambiguous on the soul and its immortality is also an issue when you compare it to Buddhist soteriology.

[Anonymous No.18520329]

>>18520202
The canon is larger and much more confusing (well, in some ways, to some people) than even the Bible. There are "bottlenecks", I've noticed, like the exclusive proposition I mentioned where he states directly to an interrogator that his only essential doctrine is the basic truth I just paraphrased in the prior post, and that his method is the valid path to get there (this goes along with his metaphor of the staircase built without knowing where the palace for it is or how large the palace is, so one has no clue how to build one's way up to it [enlightenment]). Then compare this with the fact that I just told you he asserts the existence of samsara, the form-world, the world-beyond-form, which could be real or not. He states them as truths, but given his statement about the fundamental truth of his doctrine, they might not be. The point I think is not to take as dogma anything more than necessary, but just to focus on one's path and the dhamma.
>but I see no equivalent to, say, the Nous
I do, in the fact that Brahma (at least in the canon again) is given as eternal Being, yet is still conditioned by that very same duality, as "he" is in some sense "stuck." Although "stuck" implies an unfavorable condition, where Buddha states that this position is quite literally the most favorable position of all. The Fourth Jhana, the last jhana which is "beyond pleasure and pain", is the jhana of the Non-Returner, a Buddha. The third jhana is just below it which is filled completely with bliss deriving from perfect concentration (Being). This much tends to raise dispute because Brahma is described oddly in comparison with Nous, in that Brahma gets a personality which is usually given to personal gods and not the impersonal purest principle of existence. I won't argue this point further because it's not worth it, the Buddhist texts have a tendency to play around with anything that isn't the absolute penultimate principle.
>Platonism has no such focus on dissatisfaction/sorrow and its link with conditioned existence.
No focus, sure, but it's obviously implied in the more mystical dialogues. In Phaedrus, for example, the soul which grows wings (from philosophical dedication after death) is supposedly allowed to gaze on the eternal reality of "what is" from the outer edge of the universe. I don't imply this is similar to nirvana, but it's given as superior to the more earthly forms of existence. The goal in general seems to be some sort of ascent from the more conditioned forms of existence, only it's painted in a more positive form, as less of an escape and more of an ascent (although that's not to say Buddhism doesn't have it's own, counterpoised imagery of ascent too).

[Anonymous No.18520346]

>>18519957
Good to see you back, schizoanon. I started reading Vectors of the Counter-Initiation, and I'm enjoying it a lot better than System of the Antichrist. I'm currently in the chapter where Upton discusses the divine feminine, and I find his observation of the environmentalist movement being a Gaia worshipping cult that implicitly practices human sacrifice to be quite interesting, and Mexican drug cartels who cultivate and sell cannabis and cocoa to be Gaia worshipers as well.

[Anonymous No.18520385]

>>18520346
>I'm currently in the chapter where Upton discusses the divine feminine, and I find his observation of the environmentalist movement being a Gaia worshipping cult that implicitly practices human sacrifice to be quite interesting, and Mexican drug cartels who cultivate and sell cannabis and cocoa to be Gaia worshipers as well.

As I said/warned you, that Upton is good, but a bit boomerish and does not quite literally find the "right words" in terms of perennialism. Yes the Gaia Goddes worship cult is connected to agriculture and/or even human sacrifice, and Evola writes quite a lot about this aspect.

Here is article from Gornahoor called Shadows and Reflections: The Lunar Race:
https://www.gornahoor.net/?p=8154
https://www.gornahoor.net/?p=13166

>Julius Evola begins the topic of the Lunar Races with The Demetrian Race

Demeter itself is a Goddess connected to agriculture and Magna Mater, through certain connections with Cybele.

>The Demetrian race does not recognize transcendent spirituality. Its focus is on the earth, matter. It lacks a spiritual center, so is prone to pantheism and universalism. Its concern is with the laws of nature, agricultural cycles, and cosmic harmony of the “we are all one” type. Since, for it, everything is “natural”, it fails to recognize anything as deviant.

But as talked in previous threads, the cults of Cybele/Demeter have much more sinister aspect to them as Magna Mater

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAw4ji5ZNiI

[Anonymous No.18520430]

>>18520329
>they might not be
If you start taking everything to be upaya aside from the essential doctrine, isn't that counter-productive?
I think there are also divergences within Buddhism. Some Vajrayanin seem to verge on hinduism when they say that the fundamental truth of conditioned existence loops back around and that enlightenment is the realization that the role that is being played by the enlightened master (obvious parallel to Lila here) is neither better nor worse than the role being played by the worldly being stuck in samsara.
>to focus on one's path
That is, if the extinction that is the end goal is something that you feel drawn to. Of course, a Buddhist would argue that if you don't follow the dharma in this life, you will in another, but I personally don't think the Buddhist ideal is universally enviable, I see it as one path among others.
>eternal Being
I guess you could find equivalents to neoplatonist cosmology in the formless realms, but even that seems like stretching it considering that there the characteristic of the jhanas is the stripping away of the things that, according to the doctrine, are "not self". It's an ascension through negation, whereas the (neo)platonist model as well as the hermetica seem to go the opposite way: through ascension, something is gained (by relinquishing and purifying other things, sure, but it isn't a gradual extinction).
If you go at it from a perennialist perspective you can just chalk it up to dialectical differences or whatever but I think that approach lacks nuance.
>it's obviously implied in the more mystical dialogues.
Suffering? I don't think so, at least not to the same extent. In Phaedo it's somewhat alluded to with the allusions to the body and material plane as a whole being a prison (or tomb, depending on the translation) that is escaped by purifying oneself. But at no point is suffering the focus and its extinction the condition by which eternal reality is attained.

[Anonymous No.18520473]

>>18520385
>>18520346
The "Pache Mama" idols of South America also have found their way to Vatican and it raised some sort of concern few years back.

It is a deep rabbit hole how this particular Goddess is related quite heavily to the "Preserve Mother Earth!" cult/organizations and one of the symbols it has been associated by many artists is also that Spiral (that some Q and /pol/ types call the Pedo spiral in those conspiracies etc.)

I have my own reasons to believe this is being related to the Spiral force and Ahrimanius symbolism of coiled snake and the Lion's head (Zoroaster describes God as a spiral force etc ) but it would be too lengthy to go into the subject here. Either way, the name of Ahrimanius implies Ahriman as being "destructive/evil spirit" and the main adversary in of Ahura Mazda in Zoroastrianism, that served as the advent for 'Monotheistic' religions. It does imply certain quite sinister Satanism in this way.

[Anonymous No.18520548]

>>18520346
It is interesting also that Upton brings up that "Coca and Cannabis being "the maize of the Kali-yuga" for I have myself made similar observations, but in a bit different way.

I've personally noticed that the discovery of New World or Americas opened European (and rest of the world) open to certain cuisines of the The Solanaceae family.

Namely tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, bell and chili peppers.

The old Europeans had quite taboo towards Solanaceae family for it was also associated with witchcraft through henbane and other hallucinogenic deliriants such as Datura, Mandrake.

Most people don't realize that even potato in the form of McDonalds french fries do contain trace amounts of solanine and people are more or less microdosing these "witch drugs" through this 'food staple' of Kali-Yuga. Of course I make it sound more sinister than it is from purely nutritional standpoint, but I've personally been able to get a true 'hallucinogenic' effect simply by eating greenish potatos (they can contain dangerous amounts of solanine)

>René Guénon has commented upon the traditional significance of carnivals in this light (whilst
discountenancing the mistaken notion that they represented a ‘return to the Golden Age) and he
furthermore makes the extremely perceptive observation that after the Middle Ages when these
events began to decline and fell into disuse, there occurred a great proliferation of sorcery and
witchcraft, of witches sabbats which in themselves actualise, although in an uncircumscribed and
pernicious way, the very malevolent and inferior possibilities and residues remaining over at the
close of the cycle and thus the witches sabbats were primarily characterised by evil parodies,
subversions and inversions of sacred symbolism and rites in a grotesque nocturnal carnival which manifested the most negative infra-psychic influences - influences which, furthermore, now ran riot beneath the surface of post-medieval society in a destructive and toxic outbreak whose
dangers were apparent to all

I just find it uncanny that even something so "innocent" that McDonalds meal of Ketchup & Fries is in my opinion quite characteristic of 'closing of the cycle' in terms of Nightshade family as being the "Fast food choice of Kali-Yuga".

Goyim microdosed on trace amounts of Coca, Solanaceae. It's quite interesting also that historically the "Voodoo" drug where people were zombies (according to various Voodoo folklore) has also been from the same family of plants

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura_stramonium
>Among its sacred and visionary purposes, jimson weed has also garnered a reputation for its magical uses in various cultures throughout history. In his book, The Serpent and the Rainbow, Wade Davis identified D. stramonium, called "zombi cucumber" in Haiti, as a central ingredient of the concoction vodou priests use to create zombies.

[Anonymous No.18520559]

>>18520548
People always used intoxicants for meditation, is an old tradition in China, and even some sufi muslims used hashish.

[Anonymous No.18520562]

>>18520548
take your meds, schizo

[Anonymous No.18520567]

>>18520559
Solanaceae can hardly be used for meditation. It's associated with delirium, withcraft and mind control. Especially strongly with witchcraft, for even henbane produces strong "flying sensations", it has been even suggested as forming the basis for the night flying of witches (to the sabbath).

[Anonymous No.18520597]

>>18520548
>>18520559
What about using stronger, shamanic substances like DMT and salvia for spiritual purposes? Is it ever advisable?

[Anonymous No.18520599]

>>18519116
Too bad that post wasnt even mine

[Anonymous No.18520701]

>>18514557
Not everyone is suited for actual spiritual practices and contemplation. In fact an overwhelming majority of people don't give a fuck about those things, you see that when you notice how contexts affects people relationship to spirituality. In religious contexts a majority of the population takes part on the rites, but more as a form of social interaction and tradition than actual spirituality. Once the context becomes averse to religious practices, people simply stop doing the and become agnostics, which just shows their apathy and mediocrity. Those are the Shudras for you.

[Anonymous No.18520714]

>>18520701
I've always thought the disdain for agnosticism (especially when it leans towards theism) was unwarranted. Being a genuine skeptic is much better than being a materialist.

[Anonymous No.18520734]

>>18520714
What's wrong with materialism?

[Anonymous No.18520735]

>>18520734
It's wrong

[Anonymous No.18520744]

guenonbros... I am drunk and sweating rn

[Anonymous No.18520749]

>>18520735
How do I stop being a materialist? I also have a horder syndrome my house is full of stuff I don't need I pick up stuff even trash I think I might need its a serious problem. I just spend all my days dreaming about stuff I could have/should have and I just buy more all the time, stuff that I don't really need, but I have this fucking urge inside me I need to get all this materia

[Anonymous No.18520830]

>>18520749
Can't you see it is an illusion? It provides only a fleeting, superficial satisfaction. None of it matters.

[Anonymous No.18520841]

>>18520830
>Can't you see it is an illusion?
What are you talking about? I can touch it

I just went to touch some of the stuff I own, it feels really good. leather couch and some newspapers

[Anonymous No.18520864]

Have you guys taken the Guido di Giorgio pill?

Also, have you seen these clowns?

https://diffractionscollective.org/under-the-sign-of-the-black-mark-interview-with-members-of-gruppo-di-nun/

Their name and purpose is an admitted counterfeit of the Gruppo di Ur. Is this the sort of thing Guenon predicted in Reign or not really? ...need to reread it.

[Anonymous No.18520884]

>>18520841
That's not what I mean

[Anonymous No.18520941]

>>18520385
the video had me until 7:02
>manured in order to produce corn
bro, no

[Anonymous No.18520947]

>>18520548
You seem to be quite knowledgeable on many subjects of esoterism, occult, and traditional symbolism and how they dovetail into the counter-tradition. How do you conduct your research, and can you list books and articles to read besides Guenon?

[Anonymous No.18521003]

>>18520947
This guy is posting things out of context and he makes opinions based on them. Better read Guenon for yourself, don't trust that faggot.

[Anonymous No.18521018]

Weekend reading

[Anonymous No.18521180]

>>18521018
choose wisely

[Anonymous No.18521753]

>>18514795
ok

[Anonymous No.18522373]

desu

[Anonymous No.18522400]

>>18514608
This is on point. Today the merchant caste clings to power by actively appeasing the slave caste.

[Anonymous No.18522418]

>>18514361
Read Henry Sumner Maine for an analysis of the Indian legal and social system as one of the most degenerative creation of mankind.

[Anonymous No.18522818]

>>18517516
>Guénon himself beliefed [(sic) in same nonsense as the Theosophists.
Almost certainly never read Guenon or the Theosophists.

[Anonymous No.18522921]

Is Guenon Based?

[Anonymous No.18522990]

>>18522921
based on what?

[Anonymous No.18523208]

>>18521003
Could you point out these things that have been posted out of context, maybe for starters address the points made in this post >>18519340

The problem to talk about counter-initiation and the subjects related to it are precisely related to it.

Are you the same guy who implied that Catholicism and Freemasonry cannot be counter-initinational and only something like Theosophy can be counter-initation.

[Anonymous No.18523222]

>>18520941
You do understand corn does/did not mean solely maize if that is what you are referring by your "bro, no" comment?

[Anonymous No.18523419]

>>18520947
The thing with counter-tradition and counter-initiation is that it cannot be disconnected from the Primordial Tradition itself. Posters here have weird ideas about the nature of initiation and traditional religions and they claim things (that are in direct contradiction with Guénon's views) that counter-initiation has to be some sort of New Age pseudo-religious cult formed by Egyptomaniacs in the 20th century - or something along that lines.

In their opinion, anything traditional, like Catholicism, cannot be subverted or infiltrated from 'inside' since they are 'traditional' (even disregarding reforms such as Vatican II) and thus immune to counter-initiation.

In terms of Primordial Tradition, or what remains of it in more modern times, is according to Guénon and many other traditionalists still the well preserved in Shamanism and Shamanistic beliefs (especially, the Siberian and Mongolian Shamanism for its geographical considerations). This does not mean that Shamanism itself is the mantlebearer of Primordial Tradition in modern times.

Guénon writes:
>If we consider 'shamanism' properly so called, the existence of a highly developed cosmology becomes apparent, of a kind that might suggest concordances with other traditions in many respects, and first with respect to a separation of the 'three worlds', which seems to be its very foundation. 'Shamanism' will also be found to include rites comparable to some that belong to traditions of the highest order: some of them, for example, recall in a striking way the Vedic rites, and particularly those that are most clearly derived from the primordial tradition, such as those in which the symbols of the tree and of the swan predominate.

As for the degeneration itself in Mongolian shamanistic tradition, we can find some echoes of chapter VI of Genesis. Various legends speak of beings coming from the constellation of the Pleiades with the daughters of men. At the beginning the cosmology mentions only the Sky, the Earth and the Man conceived as mediator. Men must consecrate the appropriate places as "navels" of the Earth so that these are in the axis of the "navel of the symbolized by the Polar Star (a theme Common in Shamanistic Siberian cosmogony); this one being called the "Golden Pillar" and the Iron Mountain. If there are no real apocalyptic traditions in shamanism, there are however allusions to the the destruction of this world due to cracks in the Earth, but below the the Earth, and underneath the Earth are the Underworld the domain of Erlik-Khan

The inversion takes place precisely how Shamanism degrades into Sorcery, for in regards to the Three Worlds the communication to the 'divine', upper regions is severed and the communication assumes the one coming 'from below', through the cracks. Even though the Witch-cult hypothesis and Druidic influence is probably discredited by some scholars, the similarities between the two modes of communication are hard to ignore.

[Anonymous No.18523443]

>>18520947
>>18523419

See the article:
>Hexentanz: The Sinister Masquerade of the Kali-Yuga
by Nigel Jackson

[Anonymous No.18523484]

Mormonism:
>Among the religious or pseudo-religious sects widespread in America, the Mormon sect is assuredly one of the oldest and most important, and we believe that it would not be without some interest to look at its origins.
>At the beginning of the nineteenth century there lived in New England a Presbyterian pastor named Solomon Spalding, who had abandoned his ministry in favor of commerce, where it was not long before he went bankrupt. After this setback, he began writing a kind of novel in biblical style which he entitled Manuscript Found, and which, it seems, he counted on to restore his fortune; in this he was mistaken, as he died before he could find a publisher. The subject of this book concerns the history of the North American Indians, who were portrayed as the descendents of the Patriarch Joseph; it was a protracted account of their wars and their supposed migrations from the time of Sedecias, king of Judah, up to the fifteenth century AD. This account was supposed to have been written by various chroniclers, the last of whom, named Mormon, is said to have deposited it in an underground hiding place.
> The success of Mormonism seems astonishing. It is likely that it is due more to the hierarchical and theocratic organization of the sect—very cleverly conceived, it must be acknowledged—than to the value

[Anonymous No.18523514]

>>18523484
>The success of Mormonism seems astonishing. It is likely that it is due more to the hierarchical and theocratic organization of the sect—very cleverly conceived, it must be acknowledged—than to the value

Guénon seems to play quite mindgames to ignore (or not to mention) the undeniable connection Mormonism has with Freemasonry and all of their founders being associated with Masonry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Freemasonry

Not only that, the similarities in symbolism and ritual of the Mormons and Freemasonry is extremely well documented.

[Anonymous No.18523605]

>>18523514
for sure. a major redflag of mormonism is the amount of glowniggers that are mormons.
it's basically a giant scam by the inner families that started the cult

[Anonymous No.18523626]

>>18523605
Aleister Crowley described Mormonism and the "revelation" of Joseph Smith and the angel Mormon this way:

>It was an insignificant face and form; but the attributions of him filled all heaven. In his sphere was primarily a mist which Iliel instinctively recognized as malarious; and she got an impression, rather than a vision, of an immense muddy river rushing through swamps. And then she saw that from this man's brain issued phantoms like pigeons.

>They were neither Red Indians nor Israelites, yet they had something of each in their bearing. And these poured like smoke from the head of this little man. In his hand was a book, and he held it over his head. And the book itself was guarded by an angelic figure whose face was extraordinarily stern and unbeautiful, but who scattered with wide hands the wealth of life, children, and corn, and gold. And behind all these things was a great multitude; and about them were the symbolic forms of exile and death and every persecution, and the hideous laughter of triumphant enemies. All this seemed to weigh heavily upon the little man that had created it; Iliel thought that he was seeking incarnation for the sake of its forgetfulness. Yet the light in his eyes was so pure and noble and magnetic that it might have been that he saw in a new birth the chance to repair his error.

In my opinion, this poetic description seems quite a spot-on considered in the light of Denver airport murals and other Globohomo-art and vision for the "Race to come" in America. Of course not all Americans might agree, but seems like the globohomo melting pot and more optimistic visions of channeling the future of America.

Personally I think this is disgusting.

[Anonymous No.18523639]

>>18523626
>"Race to come" in America
are you familiar with Theosophy's root races?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_race#The_emergence_of_the_sixth_subrace_of_the_Aryan_root_race

[Anonymous No.18523663]

>>18523639
Yes and I suspect such visions of Denver murals are connected to it. If you look the picture, the children are mourning extinct animals such as Auk etc. And soon-to-be extinct animals

This is also a reference to soon-to-be extinct Root Race and the new race is to emerge in America, according to various Theosophical authors.

[Anonymous No.18523698]

>>18523514
everrything is fucking associated with freemasons. it doesn't mean a thing.

[Anonymous No.18523722]

>>18523698
Sadly, Guenon and multiple trad authors like Upton disagree with you. Please don't try to join the discussion if you have nothing to contribute.

[Anonymous No.18523736]

>>18523722
No, they don't.

[Anonymous No.18523741]

>>18523722
lol trad authors, study actual history first.

[Anonymous No.18523761]

>>18523736
Please provide some sort of substance for your negations, your only reply so far has been "no, it doesn't"

Posts and quotes like this >>18519485
by Guenon have been provided that talk of quite in detail about pseudo-religious organozations in America that associate Masonic symbolism with Tribes of Israel (Mormonism quite indeed comes to mind among others)

It is quite clear you are once again talking out of your comfort zone about a subject that you cannot join or understand. Please stop postin.

[Anonymous No.18523808]

>>18523761
You made a claim which you have no evidence for. The burden of proof is on you, so either provide proof or quit blabbering like a fool. Even Guenon himself is associated with Freemasonry, but that doesn't mean he is a Freemason.

[Anonymous No.18523818]

>>18523808
I provided you a quote

May I ask you what organizations Guenon is referring to, or better yet, what YOU think he is referring to?

You have not provided anything to this discussion. No arguments, no quotes, nothing.

[Anonymous No.18523852]

>>18514503
so that's why buddhists are all loansharks and thugs.

[Anonymous No.18523889]

>>18523741
>actual history

[Anonymous No.18525004]

>>18520597
bump

[Anonymous No.18526327]

>>18514361
pbuh

[Anonymous No.18526338]

so what's the process in becoming initiated into a sufi order?

[Anonymous No.18526525]

>>18526338
https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-join-a-Sufi-order

[Anonymous No.18527173]

>>18520864
> https://sys.4channel.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdiffractionscollective.org%2Funder-the-sign-of-the-black-mark-interview-with-members-of-gruppo-di-nun%2F
wtf is this gibberish

[Anonymous No.18527230]

>>18520864
>>18527173
>High Priestess
Stopped reading precisely there.

[Anonymous No.18527297]

>>18527230
same kek

[Anonymous No.18527372]

did /our/ internet shaykh do it again or what?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl8fygHTFbc

[Anonymous No.18527401]

>>18527372
I see that Naqshbandi orders are very popular today, especially in western countries.

[Anonymous No.18527408]

>>18527401
should I join one?

[Anonymous No.18527444]

>>18527408
Idk, maybe. In my country there are no sufis(or at least there is nothing online about them) and I will probably move to some place like North Africa in the future. Do you(or anybody else) know from what sufi order is Charles Upton part of? He is also from US.

[Anonymous No.18527466]

>>18527444
north africa seems like the best place for westerners. Tunisia, Morocco, or Egypt?

not sure about Charles Upton, a quick google search does not provide any insight into which type of Sufi order he was initiated into.

The only reason why I'd do Naqshbandi because it is the only one accessible. I live in bumfuck, USA so i'd have to drive 4 hours just to get to it.

[Anonymous No.18527518]

>>18527466
>Tunisia, Morocco, or Egypt?
probably Morocco, maybe Algeria
>The only reason why I'd do Naqshbandi because it is the only one accessible
if you don't want to move, is for sure the best alternative

[Anonymous No.18527542]

>>18519768
What makes that fabulous guy the antichrist?

[Anonymous No.18529063]

>>18514485
>on my 24 years on /lit/

[Anonymous No.18529078]

a snake slithered in front of me today while hiking
what is the symbolism of that?

[Anonymous No.18529404]

Renay Gwenon