Any religionbros on?

[Anonymous No.17970521]

Does any religious text address the question of what to do if the evil/demonic forces ever win the final victory? Can be canonical (like the Bible) or theological/mystical (Summa Theologica/mystical writings etc) so long as there is a clear answer. Your answer can be about any religion.
To give an example of what I mean, in Hinduism during the Kali Yuga (dark age) your only religious duty is to speak the truth, but the doctrine of the ages presupposes the cyclical reappearance of a golden age at some point after that so this state of affairs isn't final. Germanic Paganism might be more interesting as an example, since it posits that during Ragnarok (the Twilight of the Gods), the forces of the Aesir gods are bolstered by every dead hero living in Valhalla, who then go on to fight one final battle against the forces of evil. What happens if they lose that battle though? What's there left for those people who wish to live a righteous life but find themselves in a world dominated and ordered by evil? What is their task and what is their duty?

[Anonymous No.17970552]

In terms of Christianity no because wroldly life isn't a fair planning field for Good and Evil God clearly spells out the nature of Life on Earth the future of the anti christ and its eventual downfall

[Anonymous No.17970571]

>>17970521
It is an absurd, but sadly understandable question. God is the Creator of all things; the battle has been decided from the beginning. Satan has never hoped to defeat God; rather, he acts only out of hatred for Man. The Spiritual Warfare is not a question of whether God or Satan will prevail, but only a warfare for own souls. It is nothing more than whether we will join the Eternal Victor, or the ranks of the damned. This is clearly treated of in the Bible. All other religious texts are false, products of Satan's influence corrupting Man's inborn and natural desire to give to God what he is due.

[Anonymous No.17970666]

>>17970552
>>17970571
I realised that this is the answer for Christianity, but unfortunately it does not satisfy my question. I specifically need to know what the duty of a religious person is in an utterly hopeless world.

[S10241875 No.17970926]

>>17970521
>Does any religious text address the question of what to do if the evil/demonic forces ever win the final victory?
No.
>Hinduism during the Kali Yuga
It is simply a stage in the inevitable cyclical movement of the world, such as the changing seasons.
>Germanic Paganism ...What happens if they lose that battle though?
Well, they are losing. The tree is burned by fire giants, the gods perish, the world is destroyed.
But like some minor gods and a couple of people survive. And everything starts all over again.
>What's there left for those people who wish to live a righteous life but find themselves in a world dominated and ordered by evil?
Stop wanting. Nothing more.
>What is their task and what is their duty?
Neither.

[Anonymous No.17970936]

>Does any religious text address the question of what to do if the evil/demonic forces ever win the final victory?

They already did, monotheism won

[Anonymous No.17970979]

>>17970666
It is the duty of all creation to do the will of God. No creature can escape his will. The demons hate God and his will, and so are miserable. The Angels and the Saints love God, and so, for them, the doing of God's will is an infinite and endless happiness. Our choice, while on earth is either to accept God's will, or to reject it. If we reject it, we will join the demons in eternal misery. If we accept it, we will join the Angels and Saints in eternal happiness.

[Anonymous No.17970987]

>>17970926
>No.
pic related
>But like some minor gods and a couple of people survive. And everything starts all over again.
Is this true according to Germanic paganism? I was under the impression that once the final battle is lost, it is lost forever.
>Stop wanting. Nothing more.
What do you mean by this? Stop wanting to live righteously?
>>17970936
So how would you answer my question then? Their job is to keep trying until they fail and are destroyed?

[Anonymous No.17971010]

>>17970979
>Our choice, while on earth is either to accept God's will, or to reject it.
The issue here lies in determining what "God's will" is. Christianity makes this simple by saying you should just convert and then nothing else really matters. I am not convinced that this is a valid approach, so I am trying to figure out what an alternative approach to this problem would look like. What is "God's will" in such a case? That's essentially the question I am asking.

[Anonymous No.17971047]

>>17970521
We are the mirror of God and Satan is what God sees in us.

[Anonymous No.17971055]

>>17971010
Have you read that this is the teaching of the Church, or have you assumed it to be the teaching of the Church?

[Anonymous No.17971091]

>>17971055
I was born a Pr*testant, anon. I have looked into Catholicism and Orthodoxy as well, but apart from Theosis I have found little in the Christian tradition that leaves room for serious spiritual awakening and growth besides mere conversion.

[Anonymous No.17971103]

>>17971091
When you say you have looked into Catholicism, what do you mean? Where have you looked?

[Anonymous No.17971141]

>>17970521
>if the evil/demonic forces ever win the final victory

There is no if. Demonic forces are doomed to fail. Whatever apparent successes they have now only further God's plan.

[S10241875 No.17971150]

>>17970987
>Is this true according to Germanic paganism? I was under the impression that once the final battle is lost, it is lost forever.
It is the defeat of the Aesir that opens the way to the rebirth of the world.The Aesir gods were oath-breakers (I don't remember exactly which ones now), so their death was justified for the ancient Germans. The world is reviving their chaos, as it was in the beginning.
I read Völuspá for a long time ago, but I remember this moment well.
>Stop wanting to live righteously?
Yep.
In the Mahabharata, it seems Arjuna or Yudhishthira asks the monkey king if they live by the righteous dharma. They answer that only people can and should observe the dharma, and monkeys cannot live either right or wrong, they simply get rid of the karma of their birth. "There is no law for us monkeys."Although in the Indian epic they are reasonable, that is, this is such a highly developed animal with reason, but without ethics. Accordingly, their behavior is not rewarded or punished.

[S10241875 No.17971183]

>>17971141
>Demonic forces are doomed to fail.
The mutiny doesn't end in luck
otherwise it is called differently. (like a revolution)


In short, if the devils win, they will cease to be called devils, and become angels or something like that.

[Anonymous No.17971192]

>>17971103
I am not sure what you mean by that. I have looked in various places. I have researched the general approach to Catholic theology, monastic life, the state of the Vatican, Traditional Catholicism etc. I have even listened in on SSPX sermons. You can discover some value in Traditional Catholicism but it takes effort and it's not very much. Really, the best part of Catholicism is mystical writings, but Orthodoxy does this much better and has superior monastic practices too. In my eyes, Catholicism peaked with the Crusades and the spirituality of the Knights Templar. This is all besides the point though, as the Templars participated in a spiritual civilisation that allowed them to experience ascetic hardship within the world, which presupposes the existence of a world that is completely antithetical to the one I described in the OP.
>>17971141
Too many Christians in this thread. Looks like I am not going to get my answer. It's probably my mistake for making the OP pic an Orthodox wojak though.

[Anonymous No.17971221]

>>17971150
>It is the defeat of the Aesir that opens the way to the rebirth of the world.The Aesir gods were oath-breakers (I don't remember exactly which ones now), so their death was justified for the ancient Germans. The world is reviving their chaos, as it was in the beginning.
Yet they still fight alongside the Aesir, do they not? Besides, someone has to bring order to the chaos, no?
>In the Mahabharata, it seems Arjuna or Yudhishthira asks the monkey king if they live by the righteous dharma. They answer that only people can and should observe the dharma, and monkeys cannot live either right or wrong, they simply get rid of the karma of their birth. "There is no law for us monkeys."Although in the Indian epic they are reasonable, that is, this is such a highly developed animal with reason, but without ethics. Accordingly, their behavior is not rewarded or punished.
So you are basically saying that in a world like the one I have described, human beings would descend to the levels of monkeys and therefore can't hope or strive towards spiritual growth and realisation? All that is left for them is a sort of instinctive, naturalistic existence? I can see why that would be the case in general, but what if there are some people left who still remember different times and wish to accomplish their dharma? Are they really just doomed because of bad luck?

[Anonymous No.17971249]

>all these coping midwit christniggers itt

you're looking for gnosticism, OP. start with Jacques Lacarriere's The Gnostics, or the third chapter on Gnosticism in Sloterdijk's After God. they all talk about what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.17971266]

>>17971192
Of what has your research consisted? Did you merely review Wikipedia pages? Are there certain books that you've read? Have you discussed what you've read with anyone? Have you listened to only a few random sermons, or have you sought a particular priest who seemed to have a good understanding whom you pursued and tried to learn from? What are you expecting to find? Have you tried following any of the teachings you have read? What in Christian teaching makes you think that this world will every be anything but suffering and corruption? Do you genuinely wish to live righteously, or to be called righteous by men? What do you imagine when you imagine righteousness?

[Anonymous No.17971284]

>>17971266
fuck off with your pedophile church you fucking mongoloid, nobody cares

[Anonymous No.17971301]

>>17970521
first of all, that question itself is from falsehood.
we were created to worship God Without partners.
God is THE almighty, no one is more powerful than He.
all affairs of creation have been written beforehand 50,000 years before God created creation, all in a Book which is only with God The Almighty

[Anonymous No.17971318]

>>17971301
>god pre-determined every child rape and terminal ass cancer
you can't make this shit up

[Anonymous No.17971341]

>>17971284
Why don't you care?

[Anonymous No.17971350]

>>17971318
the evil that happens has been predetermined as well, God is most wise.
Besides, everyone will be called to account for all that they will have done in this life on the day of judgement.
ofcourse, if you die as a disbeliever then your good deeds will be in vain and all efforts will be in vain.
you have a choice, you know the punishment and the reward, it does not matter if you insult or not to God in the slightest, you breathe with His permission, eat with His permission and are alive with His permission, you will die one day, you will have nowhere to escape from God's wrath after you die.

[Anonymous No.17971353]

>>17971341
because I despise papist cucks like you. slit your throat for moloch, nigger.

[Anonymous No.17971363]

>>17971350
>the evil that happens has been predetermined as well, God is most wise.
>Besides, everyone will be called to account for all that they will have done in this life on the day of judgement.
Actual p-zombie in the flesh.

[Anonymous No.17971364]

>>17971318
Why would someone make it up?

[Anonymous No.17971374]

>>17971353
How can you claim apathy in anger?

[Anonymous No.17971379]

>>17971364\
>omnipotent, omnibenevolent God wills evil
I don't know, why would they? because this is hell and they're the demons in it.

[Anonymous No.17971385]

>>17971249
Strangely enough, I think this is an excellent suggestion even though I am not very temperamentally similar to the Gnostics. Gnosticism does deal with a corrupt and evil world. The issue for me is that I don't feel like I can commit to being an ascetic hermit. I want to achieve enlightenment, so to speak, but I am not sure I will have the opportunity and ability to do so. This is why I have been looking for ways to articulate my duty on this earth, even given the way it is. The issue is that there is no starting point for acting righteously within this world and things are only going to get worse from here.
>>17971266
>Did you merely review Wikipedia pages?
That's where I started because it was the best way to find a quick summary of Catholic history, theology and structure.
>Are there certain books that you've read?
Various. I have read some books using the comparative approach and engaging with the various Christian branches. I was not very impressed with the quality of those books. The ones on Christian history I was more pleased with. I have also read a lot on the Crusades and found myself highly sympathetic to the knightly orders.
>Have you listened to only a few random sermons, or have you sought a particular priest who seemed to have a good understanding whom you pursued and tried to learn from?
I have listened to a handful of sermons coming from a well reputed SSPX priest. Once again, I found him somewhat insightful, but I don't think Christianity gets to the root of the issue at all, so while his commentary on virtue and daily life was impressive I found his sermons devoid of deep spiritual or intellectual content. I am not exactly desperate to convert since I have a preference for other traditions, so I feel like I have already done more than enough in this regard.
>What are you expecting to find?
An accurate and functional metaphysical model. In my case, it falls short on both counts.
>Have you tried following any of the teachings you have read?
Yes. In fact, I tried living according to Orthodox rules and had a prayer rule, went to liturgy etc. It was an interesting experience and had an effect on my life, but ultimately it was not for me and as I said earlier, I am not desperate to convert.
>What in Christian teaching makes you think that this world will every be anything but suffering and corruption?
Nothing in Christian teaching makes me think that, but neither does Christianity claim that the world will be eternally and totally dominated by evil.
>Do you genuinely wish to live righteously, or to be called righteous by men?
I don't care what people say about me, so this is an easy choice.
>What do you imagine when you imagine righteousness?
Living for virtue and not for vice or desire.
>>17971301
>first of all, that question itself is from falsehood.
It's true for me today.

[Anonymous No.17971398]

>>17971379
He does not will evil.

[Anonymous No.17971403]

>>17971398
no, he allows it, condones it, tolerates it, whatever cope pretzel of the week we're on now.

[Anonymous No.17971404]

>>17971385
Have you read the Summa?

[Anonymous No.17971412]

>>17971363
your headache, your disbelief only harms you.
“When iron collars will be rounded over their necks, and the chains, they shall be dragged along,

72. In the boiling water, then they will be burned in the Fire”
[Ghaafir 40:71-72]

“and every obstinate, arrogant dictator (who refuses to believe in the Oneness of Allaah) was brought to a complete loss and destruction.

16. In front of him (every obstinate, arrogant dictator) is Hell, and he will be made to drink boiling, festering water.

17. He will sip it unwillingly, and he will find a great difficulty to swallow it down his throat, and death will come to him from every side, yet he will not die and in front of him, will be a great torment”

[Ibraaheem 14:15-17]

“Verily, the tree of Zaqqoom

44. Will be the food of the sinners.

45. Like boiling oil, it will boil in the bellies,

46. Like the boiling of scalding water.

47. (It will be said:) Seize him and drag him into the midst of blazing Fire,

48. Then pour over his head the torment of boiling water.

49. Taste you (this)! Verily, you were (pretending to be) the mighty, the generous!”

[al-Dukhaan 44:43-49]

[Anonymous No.17971425]

>>17971412
>omnibenevolent, omnipotent God
>having anything to do with fear, sin, evil, suffering, hell, judgment
Laugh riot

[Anonymous No.17971448]

>>17971425
i informed you, my part is done, believe or dont believe it matters not

[Anonymous No.17971449]

>>17971403
Evil exists. There are some evils that exist which you could prevent. Are you evil for not preventing them? By refusing to intervene, are you willing them to happen?

[Anonymous No.17971459]

>>17971449
Evil does exist, but I'm a dualist so I don't have to twist myself into pretzels to explain why

[Anonymous No.17971469]

>>17971404
Admittedly no.

[Anonymous No.17971474]

>>17970666
>I specifically need to know what the duty of a religious person is in an utterly hopeless world.

[Anonymous No.17971492]

>>17971459
Christianity is also dualist, anon. Dualism proposes the existence of two natures (good and evil, for example). Monism can also maintain these distinctions, but only in relative, rather than absolute terms.
>>17971474
A surprisingly succinct and satisfying ethos. Although I am not sure doing just this will be enough for me to claim that I have done my best to live virtuously.

[Anonymous No.17971502]

>>17971469
Thomistic Metaphysics is the Church's Metaphysics. Many Popes have written to this effect. Even the Post Vatican II writings of the Church are based on his Metaphysics. If you are after a coherent metaphysics, why have you not looked in the one place that all Catholic writers point to as the source and foundation of Catholic metaphysics?

[Anonymous No.17971514]

>>17971459
You did not answer the question. Are you evil for not preventing those evils which you could prevent, but choose not to? If Good and Evil are separate forces, and you do Evil, does that not mean you belong to Evil?

[Anonymous No.17971525]

>>17971502
I disagree with Christianity on a more fundamental level, any articulations of the doctrine are not of interest to me. Moreover we have strayed far from the topic at hand.

[Anonymous No.17971532]

>>17970666
the duty of a religious person in this world is to worship God alone, and be patient, also no other religion besides islam will God accept on the day of judgement

[Anonymous No.17971561]

>>17971525
What can be more fundamental than the foundations of existence and the natures of God and Man? Why do you not at least read the names of the sections of the Summa before deciding that it is irrelevant?
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1.htm

[S10241875 No.17971611]

>>17971221
>Yet they still fight alongside the Aesir, do they not?
In the sense: the ancient Germans? Well, they were characterized by a gloomy severity, so this was the alignment for them. so it was a battle for them: utterly hopeless and utterly heroic.
"Oh, Wotan, help me defeat the enemy today and in the afterlife I will stand next to you against all monsters!"
>Besides, someone has to bring order to the chaos, no?
It seems not.
>Are they really just doomed because of bad luck?
Where there is no choice, there is no result. Such a person must wait for the exhaustion of karma.
(Besides, a monkey who will observe the dharma is not only meaningless, but also ridiculous.)

[Anonymous No.17971619]

>>17971532
Nice.
>>17971561
I have read summaries of the Summa.

[Anonymous No.17971630]

>>17970521
There is no final victory anon. There is no battle being fought either. It's an illusion.

[Anonymous No.17971670]

>>17971619
Why not read the thing itself?

[Anonymous No.17971673]

>>17971611
>"Oh, Wotan, help me defeat the enemy today and in the afterlife I will stand next to you against all monsters!"
An interesting perspective. I hadn't thought about that.
>It seems not.
Hmmm. Depressing.
>Where there is no choice, there is no result. Such a person must wait for the exhaustion of karma.
>(Besides, a monkey who will observe the dharma is not only meaningless, but also ridiculous.)
These are good answers and they seem acceptable to me. The problem is that they are not applicable, so I am obligated to keep looking for alternatives, which by the looks of it do not exist.
>>17971630
Then we could say that there is a battle against illusion, consequently there being also victory and defeat, can we not? Even final defeat becomes comprehensible when this issue is viewed at the level of a civilisation. I am actually a monist, but I believe in the potential of action to reinforce spiritual awareness and overcome maya. The issue is that other than a monastic lifestyle in something like a Zen monastery, there seem to be no real outlets for such action since the situation looks utterly hopeless. I am not sure what spiritual duty would constitute in this case.

[Anonymous No.17971850]

>>17971630
I get what you're saying anon. From the perspective of a civilization, there is a was on for minds but because things keep evolving, I don't think either side can ever have complete control. Even if we are talking about, let's say, galactic civilizations. Imo, read ecclesiastes, it's all a joke. It's all vanity, it's not really important. Even Buddha, when he finally defeated Maya, he was chilling with him afterwards. That didn't even last though. I think I saw a meme somewhere in this thread that said be kind. I think thats the answer. I've also heard plenty of old dying people say they wish they would have been kinder. Be nice to people anon, when they hurt you, don't seek revenge, distance yourself, don't let people drag you down but also don't stop being nice.

[Anonymous No.17971859]

>>17971673
>>17971850
I'm this guy.

[S10241875 No.17971860]

>>17971673
>The problem is that they are not applicable, so I am obligated to keep looking for alternatives, which by the looks of it do not exist.
Well, what other answer are you waiting for: "what to do when nothing can be done already?" They will answer you: "nothing". Because a meaningless question generates a meaningless answer.
Religion is a "connection" with something higher than a person. Even if this is an animalistic mumbo-jumbo, there is still a connection, such as smearing his face with poop and connecting with the spirit of a deer. There is an action is the result of an action. Religious texts are all about it.

If this is a theoretical question, it is meaningless and I see no reason to discuss it further.
If it’s practical, then we need to express ourselves more clearly and not torment people with abstract reasoning “what if”.

We have a good time now, you can learn so much without leaving your home. It is a sin to complain about time. (Did I correctly guess the essence of your claims?)

[Anonymous No.17971964]

>>17971673
You don't think you can self actualize within society? Probably not fully, I don't think anyone has ever done it. I'm sure you could make some progress. A real civilization tries to help it's citizens self actualize instead of just forcing them to compete with each other for the benefit of the state.

[Anonymous No.17972193]

>>17971850
>>17971859
These are all good sentiments but they are not much help in imbuing life with a transcendent meaning or attaining enlightenment or staying true to this or that transcendent concept. Do you see my problem?
>Well, what other answer are you waiting for: "what to do when nothing can be done already?" They will answer you: "nothing". Because a meaningless question generates a meaningless answer.
Just because there is no productive course of action does not mean that there isn't any, at least in most contexts. I do not know if this applies to spirituality also. I am currently trying to find out.
>If it’s practical, then we need to express ourselves more clearly and not torment people with abstract reasoning “what if”.
The practical part of a question like this is also personal. I am more so trying to discover the general answer to something like this. The particulars I can arrive at myself.
>We have a good time now, you can learn so much without leaving your home. It is a sin to complain about time. (Did I correctly guess the essence of your claims?)
If by time you mean the era we live in, then yes, something like that. I agree with you. It is a great time for getting information, but not such a great time if you want to learn alongside others and to live virtuously. You could try to make your own communities with people who try to learn and live virtuously, but those won't affect any change in the world and the world will keep turning further and further away from those values. Someone like the Buddha managed to achieve so much in part because there were many "secular" leaders who were interested in divine wisdom. Not so today. Plus, it took tremendous effort and talent on behalf of the Buddha to discover enlightenment on his own. I am not sure I have that in me.
>>17971964
Not in a way that I want. I would say that Joan of Arc self actualised herself in a way similar to what I am interested in, but she accomplished that only in the context of Catholic and medieval France. You can't take risks and make sacrifices for such great causes today, because no such causes exist. There's only secular stuff that I either don't care about or are utterly hopeless.

[Anonymous No.17972199]

>>17971860
I replied to you here but forgot to tag you, sorry.
>>17972193