/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17868812]

Are there any books defending the doctrine that it’s ok to pray to Mary?

[Anonymous No.17868820]

>>17868812
some jack it to the woman nobody cares anon

[Anonymous No.17868822]

>>17868812
The Holy Bible

[Anonymous No.17868824]

>>17868812
i jack it to her and I care immensely. Yes, you can pray to her but you must do it properly or don't bother, friendo.

[Anonymous No.17868828]

>>17868822
Where in the bible does it say it’s ok to pray to Mary?

[Anonymous No.17868831]

Imagine coming to this conclusion because of reading a book, and not just doing it because a hundred generations of your grandmas have been doing it

[Anonymous No.17868833]

>>17868831
This. OP is confirmed atomized.

[Anonymous No.17868837]

>>17868828
it doesn't, it's a subversion of the faith.

[Anonymous No.17869095]

>>17868812
>jack chick
Based

[Anonymous No.17869135]

>>17868828
Luke 1:48

[Anonymous No.17869206]

>>17868812
Why choose Mary? Catholics pray to all sorts of saints but they're just viewed as mediators, I guess it's an approach to make aspects of God more relatable to humans and it's not like God hasn't himself chosen individuals to interact with people on his behalf. Protestant screeching aside I don't see anything controversial here.

[Anonymous No.17869217]

>>17868828
Christians pray to guardian angels, drawings and mummified bits of dead people.
>inb4 ‘these aren’t real Christians, only me and my small sect of less than a hundred members knows what true Christianity is and everybody else will go to hell’

[Anonymous No.17869231]

>>17869095
>G. Gaylord Simpson
eh

[Anonymous No.17869232]

>>17869217
Angels yes but they're not praying to drawings and body parts, these are just representations. Is it so difficult to be fair about these practices?

[Anonymous No.17869249]

>>17868812
Protestants often have actual TV shows where people call in to some pastor to ask them to pray for them. I don't know why asking the person who was chosen to birth and raise Christ to pray for them is such an issue for proddies.

[Anonymous No.17869505]

>>17868812
Mary saves us not “eternally” but through her “yes” to the angel in bearing Jesus. She decided to accept Jesus and saved us all by doing so, though her son does the saving for us.

[Anonymous No.17869542]

>>17869217
>only me and my small sect of less than a hundred members knows what true Christianity is and everybody else will go to hell’

[Anonymous No.17869560]

>>17868831
based.
Hail Mary the lord is with thee blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of they womb, Jesus

[Anonymous No.17869586]

>>17868812
Mfw Mary was a 12yo loli when Gabriel came to impregnate her with divine semen.

[Anonymous No.17869598]

* EHEM *
Mary says that all generations will call her blessed.
>for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed,
This is confirmed by her cousin Elizabeth calling her blessed.
>42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!
So IT IS BIBLICAL DOCTRINE to call Mary BLESSED. In fact if you don't say out loud "MARY, YOU ARE BLESSED," you are unbiblical and you cannot call yourself Christian but a hater of truth and the Christian religion. FOR IT IS WRITTEN THAT "ALL GENERATIONS WILL CALL ME (MARY) BLESSED""". *******ALL******** generations.
So repeat with me:
>Mary, blessed are thou among women
>Mary, blessed are thou among women
>Mary, blessed are thou among women
...
Say it. SAY IT.

[Anonymous No.17869610]

Let's just ditch the faggy Bible altogether and go pray at the Shrine of Maria and sacrifice a goat and coom for her

[Anonymous No.17869630]

>>17869610
Fuck it, i'll sacrifice 100 goats and pour wine in her mouth and down her cleavage of her statue
only then she will be pleased and will give us strength in battle

[Anonymous No.17869636]

>>17869231
It's a real person https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gaylord_Simpson

[Anonymous No.17869655]

>>17869217
>>inb4 ‘these aren’t real Christians, only me and my small sect of less than a hundred members knows what true Christianity is and everybody else will go to hell’
>Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (NKJV, Matthew 7:14)

[Anonymous No.17869694]

>>17869655
Yeah the 200 hundred people in your 1920 founded Alabama church.

[Anonymous No.17869702]

>>17869694
two hundred*

[Anonymous No.17869721]

>>17869217
>For many are called, but few are chosen. (KJV, Matthew 22:14)

[Anonymous No.17869724]

*ahem*

Luke 1:40-42
>And it came to pass, when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. And she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Luke 1:28-30
>And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace,[a] the Lord is with you!”[b] 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her,[c] “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

John 19:25-27
>When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son.
After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

Irenaeus
>Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Justin Martyr
>“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down.

Augustine
>“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

[Anonymous No.17869739]

>>17868812
The Catechism, son.
PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503

I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

. . . also in her Assumption

[Anonymous No.17869744]

>>17869739
966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

[Anonymous No.17869749]

>>17869744
* II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"518 the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.

In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.519

IN BRIEF

973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG § 15).

[Anonymous No.17869781]

She was declared the Theotokos at the Council of Ephesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CHTZL4m014

[Anonymous No.17869803]

>>17868812
Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of God. There's nothing wrong with using that as a title for her.

[Anonymous No.17869952]

*AHEM AHEM AHEM*
℣. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariæ,
℟. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.

Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. * Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostræ. Amen.

℣. Ecce ancilla Domini.
℟. Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum.

Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. * Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostræ. Amen.

℣. Et Verbum caro factum est.
℟. Et habitavit in nobis.

Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. * Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostræ. Amen.

℣. Ora pro nobis, Sancta Dei Genetrix.
℟. Ut digni efficiamur promissionibus Christi.

Oremus.
Gratiam tuam, quæsumus, Domine, mentibus nostris infunde; ut qui, Angelo nuntiante, Christi Filii tui incarnationem cognovimus, per passionem eius et Crucem ad resurrectionis gloriam perducamur. Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum.
℟: Amen.

[Anonymous No.17870455]

>>17869655
>NKJV

[Anonymous No.17870468]

Will you argue with Guadalupe, Lourdes, and Fatima, OP?

[Anonymous No.17870476]

>>17868828
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked, but He hears the prayer of the righteous.

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

[Anonymous No.17870591]

>>17869749
HERESY

[Anonymous No.17870598]

>>17870476
talk about out of context

[Anonymous No.17870672]

>>17870591
Even the vow breaking Luther venerated Mary. Pastor Jim's opinion and interpretation is now taken more seriously than the Church Fathers for protestants. Sad!

[Anonymous No.17870918]

>>17868812
I'm not christian by any means, but how come there's such a war over this concept? Christian God, the Heavenly Father, is infinite and waited thousands of years, tens of thousands counting the BC years, and selected Mary for the sacrifice. This has only happened once. How does this not immediately make Mary the object of veneration? She's clearly so fucking special that the Holy Spirit was sent by God to give her the gift of bearing the Christ-child.

>>17869739
>>17869744
>>17869749
Autism. Not you, but whoever was so anal retentive they needed to write the catechism so that they could keep track of what they were torturing different Europeans to death for

[Anonymous No.17871063]

>>17869505
The bearing was inevitable and was it really a question asked to her?iirc, it was akin to an announcement

[Anonymous No.17871106]

>>17870918
>writing down your beliefs in a clear way is autism

[Anonymous No.17871119]

>>17868812
>When Christ chose to put on humanity...
Ooh, you hate to see a rookie heresy like that.

[Anonymous No.17871176]

>>17871106
Writing down your beliefs to the point of them being so numerous and contrived that you would have to consult the book they were written for you in? Autism.

Oh so you're catholic? Name all the plenary indulgences. And the dates you can do them on. And the latin or english you have to recite.

[Anonymous No.17871651]

How do people not understand that the church father’s writings and the councils are not God-breathed? They may be an authority but all of the are subject to the scrutiny of the bible, which is the sole *infallible* rule of faith and practice. Why would anyone put the writings of men and the traditions of fallible men on the same level of authority as the writings of God? That is such a radicle assertion to make and it cannot be justified. It doesn’t matter how many people believed it throughout history, it’s not God-breathed.

[Anonymous No.17871703]

>>17871651
Please do remind me who had collected, vetted, translated, copied and commented the Scripture. Where they angels?

If not, and they were humans, then how can you know the Scripture wasn't tainted, misinterpreted, lost or outright fabricated the same way you claim the Tradition was fabricated or misinterpreted?
Or do you seriously believe tens of thousands of bishops and monks who dedicated their whole lives to the Church where (un)willingly spreading lies and bullshit, and only you alone after 1500-2000 years have The Truth?

[Anonymous No.17871724]

>>17871651
where in the bible does it say that sola scriptura

[Anonymous No.17871772]

>>17871724
>Corinthians 3:6
>He has made us competent as ministers of a New covenant, notof the letter but of the spirit. For the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
From this, it's obvious that we should follow the letter of the Book and not the ministers, so we may have death instead of the spirit.

[Anonymous No.17872876]

>>17868820
Bruh wtf

[Anonymous No.17873540]

>>17871651
SOLA SCRIPTURA NOT BIBLICAL
>But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

>15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

>and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men,[a] who will be able to teach others also. (2 Timothy 2:2)

> And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this[a] as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15-16)

AUTHORITY GIVEN FROM JESUS TO THE APOSTLES
Luke 10:1,16
>16 He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

Matthew 16:18-20
>18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
>19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

John 20:19-23
>21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

>22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

>23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Matthew 28:19
>19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Even with scripture we can see that Jesus gave his authority to his apostles to teach us. The Apostolic Fathers were also taught by and were in the presence of these same apostles.
Apostolic Fathers: Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna

CLEMENT OF ROME TESTIFYING TO APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION
>“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

[Anonymous No.17873581]

>>17871176
Dude, you are talking about an entire way of life. Of fucking course they wrote it down. What the fuck do you think almanacs were? When you have a holiday every other day and an entire life cycle that needs to be planned in advance or you fucking starve in the winter, yeah, no shit, you write it down.

[Anonymous No.17873586]

>>17873540
IRENAEUS TAUGHT BY POLYCARP, AN APOSTOLIC FATHER
>“Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time” (ibid., 3:3:4).

AUGUSTINE'S RESPECT OF THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION
>“[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 4:5 [A.D. 397]).

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH AN APOSTOLIC FATHER
>“Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father” (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

>“You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force” (ibid., 3:1).

[Anonymous No.17873593]

>>17871703
They were people, but the scriptures have so little discrepancy that evidently people were being cautious to preserve God's word, and so we can be confident that we do have the truth (in the original Greek and Hebrew anyway, not necessarily translations).
Just because the Bible was carefully preserved by the early church Fathers doesnt mean that their word is on the same level as scripture.

[Anonymous No.17873621]

>>17869586
sandnigs are fully grown by 12

[Anonymous No.17873664]

Saint Louis-Marie de Montfort has excellent works on this if you're actually interested

[Anonymous No.17873703]

>>17873581
Catholics in general are just huge writers and pay too much attention to detail. Not that it's a bad thing. Aquinas and Ignatius come to mind.
Don't you have a 10 page thesis to write on the etymology of Jesus' name and how that relates to biblical bread-baking methods?

>When you have a holiday every other day and an entire life cycle that needs to be planned in advance or you fucking starve in the winter, yeah, no shit, you write it down.
Only a small fraction of the population would have been able to read during the time of winter starvations
It was more about growing your grains, and storing and pickling your veggies properly, you know?

[Anonymous No.17873756]

>>17871063
Luke 1:38, she could have refused the angel theoretically

[Anonymous No.17873993]

>>17868812
Christ is both human and divine. There isn't anything that physically distinguished Christ's physical body from the body of anyone else.

[Anonymous No.17874087]

>>17869217
>>17869232
Angel worship is retarded just like praising anything else other than God, please actually read the Bible.
Colossians 2:18-19
Revelation 22:8-9
>>17868831
>c*tholics

[Anonymous No.17874118]

>>17874087
>asking for intercession and respecting/venerating God's servants = worship and/or putting them on the same level as God
>not reading Tobit which teaches the intercession of angels
Oh wait I forgot you guys removed that book

[Anonymous No.17874140]

>>17874087
veneration is not worship...

[Anonymous No.17875004]

>>17874087
Have you said your daily blessing to Mary as the Bible teaches?