/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17468283]

How do I get into Wagner? Both his music and his writings.

[Anonymous No.17468471]

Watch a production of one of his operas, if you don't find yourself bored out of your wits you'll probably enjoy the others as well.

[Anonymous No.17468475]

>>17468283
Why would you piss your time away with shit like that? He has two good pieces and that’s it

[Anonymous No.17468653]

>>17468475
He has the best operas ever don’t be an asshole.
>>17468283
I prefer Schoenberg’s writings

[Anonymous No.17468701]

>>17468283
>>17468471
>>17468475
>>17468653
I cannot imagine what kind of pseud listens to opera music in two thousand twenty one. Whom are you trying to impress?

[Anonymous No.17469433]

>>17468701
he got some pretty good preludes. If you enjoy drama, you might as well listen to the whole thing. Wagner was a legitimately great dramatist

[Anonymous No.17469485]

>>17468701
>CURRENT YEAR
You could say this about any art, and you're culturally bankrupt if you do.

[Anonymous No.17469498]

>>17468701
t. earlet with short attention span

[Anonymous No.17469521]

>>17468701
t. philistine

[Anonymous No.17469528]

The ring cycle is seventeen hours long and tedious beyond measure. Just try to watch the beginning of Das Rhinegold and see how over-exaggerated, superficial, slow, and self-serious it is. It’s so kitsch I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone would choose to watch it. Opera in general is such a low form of art: all of the singers sound the same, no matter if they’re being tragic or funny, with that ear-grating soprano whine, everything is so over the top, and there’s absolutely no subtlety or nuance. Even supposedly “great” operas like Mozart’s Don Giovanni are barely watchable. The only ones which are somewhat decent are the ones which don’t take themselves seriously and make a mockery/comedy out of the whole thing.

[Anonymous No.17470335]

Wagner's music is just bad. Theatrical, boisterous, operatic, showmanlike. Big crashing cymbals and strings to pack the tawdry seats of opera-halls. I doubt any of his Nazi fanbois even listen to it. And Nietzsche certainly knew better than to listen to that crap.

Mahler, on the other hand, (and Strauss as well) displays the characteristics of a true Overman of the arts.

[Anonymous No.17470357]

>>17470335
You’re a retard, Wagner was adored by Mahler and Strauss

[Anonymous No.17470476]

>>17470335
>>17470357

[Anonymous No.17470630]

>>17470335
>Nietzsche
This was all cope on his end right?

[Anonymous No.17470640]

>>17468701
All art is timeless.

[Anonymous No.17470688]

Why does /lit/ have better taste in music than /mu/?
>>17468283
http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/Wagner%20Writings.htm

[Anonymous No.17470744]

>>17470688
Because /mu/ got taken over by normies a few years back. /mu/'s taste was always bad, but now it's fucking pitiful.

[Anonymous No.17470747]

>>17470744
Ahh well all I know about it nowadays is that it’s full of actual trannies

[Anonymous No.17471502]

>>17470335
Strauss is a mediocrity. In fact his only great work is an opera, Salome, an artistic triumph on an order he could never replicate.

[Anonymous No.17471667]

>>17470688
Liking Wagner actually shows that you know nothing about classical music. There are so many great works out there and you pick the most boring and generic ones

[Anonymous No.17471671]

>>17468283
Be the king of Spain apparently

[Anonymous No.17471836]

>>17468283
Music:
Hojotoho! Hojotoho!
Hojotoho! Hojotoho!
Heiaha! Heiaha!
Hojotoho! Hojotoho!
Hojotoho! Hojotoho!
Heiaha! Ja!

Writings:
Hojotoho! Hojotoho!
Hojotoho! Hojotoho!
Heiaha! Heiaha!
Hojotoho! Hojotoho!
Hojotoho! Hojotoho!
Heiaha! Ja!

[Anonymous No.17471947]

>>17468283
>Famously, in his published writing Nietzsche sets up Bizet against Wagner, declares Carmen to be the greatest of all operas, and compares its music favourably with Wagner's in a certain amount of detail. But he does not believe this either. Privately, in a letter to a friend he writes: 'What I say about Bizet, you should not take seriously the way I am, Bizet does not matter at all to me. But as an ironic antithesis to Wagner, it has a strong effect' (27 December 1888). It does indeed, and has been quoted ever since. We begin to realise who, as between Nietzsche and Wagner, is the actor, the master of insincere effect. As for Wagner the man, although Nietzsche heaped almost incredible public abuse on his head ('Is Wagner a human being at all? Isn't he rather a sickness?' — this remark in The Wagner Case is representative of dozens such to be found in his writings) he never, in spite of himself, lost a vivid sense of Wagner's greatness. In the last year of his effective life he wrote to a friend: 'Wagner himself, as man, as animal, as God and artist, surpasses a thousand times the understanding and the incomprehension of our Germans' (26 February 1888).

And there are countless other letters like this from Nietzsche. Not appreciating Wagner is a sign of low intelligence.

[Anonymous No.17471987]

>>17471947
How can you take his operas seriously? Just watch this shit (https://youtu.be/4EYW49Ru_F4).). It’s kitsch beyond measure. I have to watch and enjoy seventeen hours of this crap not to be considered low IQ? Come on.

[Anonymous No.17472055]

>For all the non-german speakers:
How do you even take in one of his works?
I could not imagine actually listening to Das Rheingold if I could not follow what was spoken? (I would often have to follow with text or remember the lines, all after having read it beforehand)
I could agree with the philistines when one says the majority of opera is boring exaggerated musical singing talent with occasional great instrumental pieces, but only if I could not follow the language.

BUT if you understand the words Wagner's work is the most sublime and perfect form to "tell" a story. It is overwhelming at times when those previous pedantics come together and so much harmony and beauty is kindled in moment upon moment. No doubt I would always prefer to experience those tales through Wagner than any other medium.

I dont want to say you could not find interest and enjoyment in Wagner's music as a non-german, but at that point why not rather stick to non-opera music or less by epics driven music.

(same goes for other foreign langauge music; I don't understand how people listen to some of even Mozart, Orff or Mahler if they have no knowledge of Latin)

[Anonymous No.17472089]

>>17471987
Yes, blame the production you utter retard. It's not just horrible visuals that poor Wagner gets, it's the whole of the music world which is increasingly declining in quality. Even apart from all the artsy culture with gender theory-tier interpretations and productions, even apart from the incapacity to just have a normal production visually, the music itself is far below traditional standards. Eventually you learn to steer clear from popular or new productions like the one you posted. And Anglos also have trouble with bad translation.

Just start with the famous musical excerpts, otherwise you're just going to continue to get filtered by the most technically original artist to ever live.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXh5JprKqiU
https://youtu.be/dzeNnoMmsjM?t=4073

[Anonymous No.17472100]

ring - tristan - parsifal

ring:
>rheingold is considered to be the least complicated of his operas
>music often doubles the action on stage
>easy to follow for someone who just listens to the music and reads the text

tristan:
>advanced, more independent role of the music
>the stage action is still very ascetic so visuals are unimportant

parsifal:
>ultimate peak wagnerian opera
>starts simple like rheingold but increasingly more complicated layering of motifs
>most visual-dependent. music describes inner meaning of the action or depicts the surroundings, while action on stage won't be known to a pure listener.

fav overview: carl dahlhaus - wagner's music dramas
fav biographer: curt von westernhagen - wagner
both reference wagner's own writings, make it easier to navigate through them

there are lots of companion books, i would stay clear of the "jungian" interpretations that were fashionable in 50s/60s, because wagner was not an obscurantist, had schopenhauerian disdain for le secret external key that "unlocks the artwork".
parsifal: Kinderman, Syer - A Companion to Wagner's Parsifal

latest book i would recommend and which is also aimed at newbie audience:
Christian Thielemann - My life with wagner

[Anonymous No.17472151]

>>17471987
Also, opera is a very broad thing. Wagner rejected the term opera, and rightly so, because his dramas are so radically different from it. And he was very explicitly reacting against the popular commercial operas of his day, which had the same repeated tropes and formalities for an audience who just wanted vulgar entertainment. That said, those traditional opera forms were not always so commercialised, and Wagner marvelled out how Mozart was able to "breath so much life into" the Italian style, it is very similar with Weber though he was reacting against Italian opera. When the common person thinks of "opera," it is almost always these ridiculous puffy drawn out pieces.

[Anonymous No.17472155]

>>17472151
shut up

[Anonymous No.17472159]

>>17471667
No it doesn’t pleb, Wagner was a very important figure in the history of music and wrote about the concept of programmatic and absolute music, he may not be the greatest romantic composer, but you can’t just say you shouldn’t like him or you look like an earlet, I mean you just look like a pseud

[Anonymous No.17472161]

>>17468471
fpbp

[Anonymous No.17472171]

>>17471667
Yes, most people I knew who loved Wagner didn't know shit about classical music but those who did thought he was crap. Tells a lot.

[Anonymous No.17472177]

>>17472159
>programmatic music
retarded illustrative nonsense

[Anonymous No.17472194]

>>17472177
Youre just a midwit clearly

[Anonymous No.17472206]

>>17468283
I wrote this in another thread:

He's a very original thinker, and in many respects of his thought (especially on art) still hasn't been superseded. Most of early Nietzsche's understanding of art comes from Wagner, and it's a mistake to think he necessarily went beyond Wagner's own ideas on art, or even covered much of the same breadth on it. A lot can be said about him and his lifelong writing, but I recommend starting with his later works at least post 1860, being much easier to understand and the final conclusions of his life. Specifically his "Regeneration writings," literally the very last things he ever wrote.

- Religion and Art
- "What Boots this Knowledge?"
- Know Thyself
- Introduction to a work of Count Gobineau's
- Hero-dom and Christendom (last finished essay)

Other very worthwhile works of his (mostly later years) are:

- Judaism in Music
- Beethoven (1870, and his major book on art post-1860, the only work of his with a modern translation but will cost you over a $100 to get)
- The Destiny of Opera
- What is German?
- Modern (continuation of Judaism in Music)
- On Poetry and Composition

He also has a beautiful and sweet short story trilogy about a young German composer who considers himself a disciple to Beethoven, and are very useful for understand Wagner's early understanding and feeling about art, such as his lifelong obsession with unifying word and music:

- A Pilgrimage to Beethoven
- An End in Paris
- A Happy Evening

That said, he doesn't feel it necessary to restate his earlier ideas in later thought. At this point you might as well dive into his major works from the middle of the century, where most of his thought on art, history, science, psychology and philosophy are included. Though there is much of it he would later reject or improve upon, and is written with the brashness and arguably unnecessary length (most of them are book-long) of a younger Wagner which can make it difficult to tell what he's exactly trying to say, they are all brilliant, original and important works. But a philosopher not being his primary disposition, and feeling the need to say much and all with an artistic slant, so as to convey the meaningful feeling prior to these ideas, he crams a lot into each paragraph. Often ideas of his can sound more eccentric than they are because of this, but with persistence you'll understand. They are (from what I know):

- Art and Revolution
- The Art-Work of the Future
- A Communication to my Friends
- Opera and Drama

CONT

[Anonymous No.17472208]

Sure a lot of unproductive seething going on itt.
Wonder how someone could be so upset about Wagner in 2021.

[Anonymous No.17472212]

>>17472206
But there is one problem in reading Wagner in English, the only translation of any of his prose works (except his Beethoven) is from the 1890's, incredibly poor and often purposefully mistranslates for the benefit of Wagner's reception in England at the time. For the most part it suffices, though it makes those already arduous revolutionary (mid-century) works incredibly tiresome. If you can read German then find the originals.

[Anonymous No.17472218]

>>17472208
I'm not sure how long it will take for Wagner to stop being so contentious, and be accepted as easily as any of the other greats.

[Anonymous No.17472221]

>>17472055
no one can follow it in German either unless they have read the libretto. On top of this, it's not easy to understand even if the singers articulate well as Wagner is trying to imitate Shakespeare and Aeschylus in German (look up Droysen's Aeschylus translations and you will imidiately recognize the stylistic similarities.)

[Anonymous No.17472272]

>>17472218
Let's be honest, who in the musical community doesn't consider Wagner as one of the greats, baring niche personal dislikes that nobody cares about? Pseuds on /lit/ will shit on anything so it doesn't really count.

[Anonymous No.17472298]

>>17472206
"on conducting" (1869) is also very important
can be read as general guide for romantic interpretations of any kind

>>17472221
the ideal performance should aim at perfect clarity of the text, like in karajan's studio recordings.
wagner is especially fragile against bad performances which sometimes sacrifice clarity and "greek simplicity" for bombastic or vague effects. but the works of many other great composers are fragile like that as well.
furtwängler wrote that he was initially let down by bad performances after hyping himself up over piano transcriptions. didnt stop him from becoming one of the greatest wagner interpreters.

[Anonymous No.17472301]

>>17472272
That's true, but there's always some contention about his dramas. "Is the music only worthwhile? Is the dramatic part actually any good?" I remember Dali saying "Wagner is so great that he is still growing. And that means that nobody has seen him yet." He as of yet doesn't have the kind of reputation like Shakespeare where no matter who you are, everyone universally says something kind of like "he defines human nature", there is no definite observation made by Wagner for most people. But it has only been a bit more than a century.

[Anonymous No.17472314]

Imagine getting filtered by Wagner in 2021. Maybe in the 19th century you would have had an excuse, lmao

[Anonymous No.17472365]

>>17472221
>DIIIIIR TÖNE LOOOB DIE WUUNDER SEIIIN GEPRIIIIIESEN
You can definitely understand a good majority and if you have the text in fornt of you or know it by heart you understand it all. Most of the (german) singing relies on recognizing which words are stressed; that is such an essential part of conveying specific elements in the tale and I bet some literature experts could actually find Wagner relying on this heavily in his sentence structure.
>OH KÖÖÖÖNIGIN, GÖÖÖÖÖTTIN, LAAAAAAAAASS MICH ZIEHN!

[Anonymous No.17472370]

>Wagner tried to create a new musical public, one that would see the point of idealising the human condition. But with kitsch culture already eclipsing the romantic icon of the artist as priest, his attempt was doomed from the start.

>Since then, Wagner's enterprise has acquired its own tragic pathos, as modern producers, embarrassed by dramas that make a mockery of their way of life, in turn make a mockery of the symbolism. Sarcasm and satire run riot, as in Richard Jones's 1994-96 Covent Garden production of The Ring, because nobility has become intolerable.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2003/apr/12/classicalmusicandopera.artsfeatures1

[Anonymous No.17472380]

>>17472159
Throwing around some made up terms doesn't make you credible. If you ever played in an orchestra, you would know how boring his pieces are. They aren't liked by anyone with deep interest in classical music at all.

[Anonymous No.17472384]

>>17472370
shit take

[Anonymous No.17472423]

>>17472384
How actually dare you?

[Anonymous No.17472436]

>admired by Liszt, Brahms, Schumann, Verdi, Berlioz, Tchaikovsky and pretty much every important contemporary of his, as one of the greatest composers, if not the greatest, alive
>many even consider him an equal to Beethoven, with this admiration only growing after his death

>some random nobody on a Taiwanese origami forum thinks no one likes him and he's boring

[Anonymous No.17472450]

>>17472380
arent orchestra players jaded about pretty much everything nowadays, why should it matter what they think.
and if wagner is that simple, why is the meistersinger prelude usually played too slow? could it be that a wagnerian double fugue is pretty musically ambitious after all?
yeah, the musical texture isnt always at full potential, because it's just a component in the drama. wagnerians tend to overestimate the components and then it becomes a strawman for anti-wagnerians. thats how one can "finish off" any polymath, they are never the ultimate masters of a single domain.

[Anonymous No.17472465]

>>17472450
But the music is always at its full potential for its purpose.

[Anonymous No.17472534]

>>17472194
You couldn't begin to explain how illustrative music is a stupid pony trick. Wagner is for midwits. Have you even read the threads?

[Anonymous No.17472543]

>>17472208
One anon spams him here constantly like he matters in literature, that's why.

[Anonymous No.17472555]

>>17472465
pomposity

[Anonymous No.17472568]

>>17472543
>Wagner isn't important for literature
Pretty much every major writer of the early to middle part of the 20th century would disagree.

[Anonymous No.17472580]

>>17472568
In your dreams, Wagfag.

[Anonymous No.17472590]

>>17472568
engaging in pathetic bait.

[Anonymous No.17472598]

>>17472543
but i never see you entering threads about "birth of tragedy", weininger or thomas mann who all go on and on about wagner as if he mattered. surely you would want to convert those posters as well.

[Anonymous No.17472603]

>>17472580
>>17472590
>Nietzsche
>Proust
>Dujardin
>Joyce
>Lawrence
>Eliot
>Auden
>Mishima

[Anonymous No.17472621]

>>17472598
>convert
projection

[Anonymous No.17472623]

>>17472603
i meant YOU should stop engaging in stupid bait.
Just ignore the loser kek
How can you seriously feel the need to argue with someone who talks shit about wagner's work

[Anonymous No.17472632]

>>17472623
Yes, you're right anon. You have redeemed me from the irrational desire to reply to shitposts.

[Anonymous No.17472640]

>>17472603
>Pretty much every major writer of the early to middle part of the 20th century
That's all? I'll bite, what did those write about it?

[Anonymous No.17472651]

>>17472621
>i'm not converting like you, i'm fortifying /lit/

[Anonymous No.17472656]

>>17472651
>more projection, now with pics

[Anonymous No.17472662]

>>17472543
this

[Anonymous No.17472792]

Reminder that the Wieland lineage are the true inheritors of Bayreuth and it was stolen by Drexel. Gottfried was the product of that.

The only hope for Bayreuth is through Wieland.

[Anonymous No.17472797]

>>17468701
Studies say opera is listened by those with lowest intelligence. It's bellow even rap which is second to last.

[Anonymous No.17473186]

Wagner in a letter to Mathilde Wesendonck, 1 October 1858:
>But I am also clear in my own mind why I can even feel greater fellow-suffering for lower natures than for higher ones. A higher nature is what it is precisely because it has been raised by its own suffering to the heights of resignation, or else has within it - and cultivates -- the capacity for such a development. Such a nature is extremely close to mine, is indeed similar to it, and with it I attain to fellow-joy. That is why, basically, I feel less fellow-suffering for people than for animals. For I can see that the latter are totally denied the capacity to rise above suffering, and to achieve a state of resignation and deep, divine calm. And so, in the event of their suffering, as happens when they are tormented, all I see - with a sense of my own tormented despair - is their absolute, redemption-less suffering without any higher purpose, their only release being death, which confirms my belief that it would have been better for them never to have entered upon life1. And so, if this suffering can have a purpose, it is simply to awaken a sense of fellow-suffering in man, who thereby absorbs the animal's defective existence, and becomes the redeemer of the world by recognising the error of all existence. (This meaning will one day become clearer to you from the Good Friday morning scene in the third act of Parzival.)

[Anonymous No.17473430]

>>17473186
What a pretentious hack and his writing sucks balls. Get to the fucking point you lowbrow

[Anonymous No.17473446]

>>17468701
You need to train your attention span. I've been spending lockdown on a couch reading in the same room as my granpa and we've been listening to classic music (not just opera but alot of it too) the whole time. Initially I was irritated by it because I'm used to a different kind of music but it wont take long till you appreciate it.

[Anonymous No.17473447]

>>17468283
Scriabin is far more interesting.

[Anonymous No.17473463]

>>17473430
Imagine getting filtered by Romantic prose.

[Anonymous No.17473632]

>>17472797
Not to mention programmatic music is specifically designed for idiots.

[Anonymous No.17473647]

>>17472797
>>17473632
Filtered earlets.

[Anonymous No.17473663]

>>17473647
>Dude filtered
Go back to R*ddit and listen to more classical music. You have shit taste

[Anonymous No.17473682]

>>17470335
t reddit spacer

[Anonymous No.17473700]

>>17473663
>muh turbo complexity
Opera filters earlets who can't sing. Singing is the ultimate musical filter. Those endowed with the capacity to sing cannot but love opera. The rest cope.

[Anonymous No.17473719]

>>17473700
t. can't even play a single instrument with above average skill and discovered Wagner this year
Ok commi

[Anonymous No.17473976]

>>17473719
I play your mother's instrument regularly, pal.

[Anonymous No.17473991]

>>17473447
scriabin is to chopin what bruckner is to wagner

fanfiction.

[Anonymous No.17474049]

>>17473976
I bet you have never seen a pussy in your life. Why else would you have such an inferiority complex?

[Anonymous No.17474816]

>>17474049
My love affairs are Isolde, Brunhilde, Elsa etc.

[Anonymous No.17474828]

>>17473719
Instruments are a cope for singlets.

[Anonymous No.17474910]

>>17470335
>>17471502
>>17471667
>>17472159
>>17472171
Ah yes, another /lit/ tries to talk /classical/ thread. Please refrain from speaking about things you don't understand.

[Anonymous No.17475039]

>>17468701
It's not an Opera, it's a Gesamtkunstwerk, dilettante.

[Anonymous No.17475044]

>>17475039
*Gesammtkunstwerk.

[Anonymous No.17475134]

>>17475044
*Gesamtkunnstwerk

[Anonymous No.17475203]

Goddamkuntswerk

[Anonymous No.17475210]

>>17475044
No.

[Anonymous No.17475211]

>>17469528
100% Jewish (Ashke)

[Anonymous No.17475291]

>>17468701
Opera and live theatre in general is based. The only people who say they don’t like it have either never experienced it. Or are mostly lower class people with objectivity poor taste.

[Anonymous No.17475376]

>>17472797
This is the ultimate form of projecting. Hide behind your biased studies all you want. Of course they’re going to put rap ahead of opera. They don’t want to insult blacks. Any intelligent man see this.

[Anonymous No.17475543]

>Mir – dies? Dies, Tristan – mir?

[Anonymous No.17475842]

A letter by Wagner to Wesendonck:
>I recognize now that the characteristic fabric of my music (always of course in the closest association with the poetic design), which my friends now regard as so new and so significant, owes its construction above all to the extreme sensitivity which guides me in the direction of mediating and providing an intimate bond between all the different moments of transition that separate the extremes of mood. I should now like to call my most delicate and profound art the art of transition [(Übergang, also translated to as "crossing," and always relates to being between two points)], for the whole fabric of my art is made up of such transitions: all that is abrupt and sudden is now repugnant to me; it is often unavoidable and necessary, but even then it may not occur unless the mood has been clearly prepared in advance so that the suddenness of the transition appears to come as a matter of course. My greatest masterpiece in the art of the most delicate and gradual transition is without doubt the great scene in the second act of Tristan and Isolde. The opening of this scene presents a life overflowing with all the most violent emotions — its ending the most solemn and heartfelt longing for death. These are the pillars: and now you see, child, how I have joined these pillars together, and how the one of them leads over into the other. This, after all, is the secret of my musical form, which, in its unity and clarity over an expanse that encompasses every detail, I may be bold enough to claim has never before been dreamt of. If only you knew how that guiding emotion has inspired me to invent musical devices that would never have occurred to me previously (devices in terms of rhythm, as well as harmonic and melodic development), you would realize that even in the most specialized branches of art no truth is ever invented that does not derive from such grand primary motives. That, then, is art!

[Anonymous No.17476039]

>>17472151
>Mozart was able to "breath so much life into" the Italian style
Something like Don Giovanni, supposedly one of the "greatest operas in history", is barely watchable. It's sometimes funny if you don't take it seriously, but it's not even clear whether it wants to be taken seriously or not. As a piece of art, it is utterly kitsch. You finish it feeling weary and unimpressed, not with a feeling of sublime awe as you do with genuinely good art.
>When the common person thinks of "opera," it is almost always these ridiculous puffy drawn out pieces.
And that is a perfect description of Wagner's operas. For example I don't think anybody could watch this (https://youtu.be/4jO6d4z8r7w)) and genuinely enjoy it, feel in any way moved, enlightened, or entertained by it.
>>17475211
That's funny because if you actually go to watch an opera you'll find that the audience members are mostly greying pensioners and Jews. Literally nobody else watches operas.

[Anonymous No.17476062]

>>17473700
Opera singers are not good at singing. They have only one extremely limiting and boring style. No matter if they're singing lines which are meant to be tragic, funny, angry, sad, or melancholic, they sing in almost the exact same way, with that ear-grating soprano whine.

[Anonymous No.17476084]

>>17476062
>ear-grating soprano whine.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQizi3-pINo

[Anonymous No.17476166]

>tfw you know that Wagner secretly believed all of his characters were the same people born again through metempsychosis
This is high-tier esoteric Wagnerianism, you don't get it very often.

[Anonymous No.17476305]

>>17476062
You're probably tone-deaf, you don't judge singers according to musical characteristics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_50zj7J50U
Literally listen to the actual notes and sing along, it will infuse in you and you'll recognize its beauty.

[Anonymous No.17476322]

for every awkward moment in wagner you can find 100 such defects in schumann or schubert.
wagner is actually one of the more tasteful romantics, almost never misses. and when he shows coarse taste it's usually to depict wild creatures from ring or nostalgically detached meistersinger characters, which require such treatment according to their substance.

[Anonymous No.17476357]

>>17476305
More for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IqzuaQ5OJA
Sing along.

[Anonymous No.17476388]

>>17468701
You listen to what?

[Anonymous No.17476397]

>>17470335
>Wagner's music is just bad. Theatrical, boisterous, operatic, showmanlike. Big crashing cymbals and strings to pack the tawdry seats of opera-halls. I doubt any of his Nazi fanbois even listen to it. And Nietzsche certainly knew better than to listen to that crap.
I listen to Wagner alot, I like his music.
You go away and whine about national socialism some place else, okay?

[Anonymous No.17476405]

>>17471667
>you pick the most boring and generic ones
I'm pretty boring and generic like everyone else, grow up.
You hate wagner because he's anti Semitic.

[Anonymous No.17476410]

>>17471987
art, objects, or design considered to be in poor taste because of excessive garishness or sentimentality, but sometimes appreciated in an ironic or knowing way.
"the lava lamp is an example of sixties kitsch"
Trash opinion.

[Anonymous No.17476426]

>>17472100
>tristan
How many Tristans do you know?

[Anonymous No.17476749]

What did Wagner mean by this? I'm so confused and being filtered by it.

>Wherefore that Melody which remained conscious of her aptitude for infinite emotional-expression,—acquired on Music's own domain,—paid no heed at all to the sensuous setting of the Word-verse, since it must grievously affect her shaping from her own resources. She [250] chose instead the task of announcing herself, entirely for herself as independent vocal-melody, in an expression which rendered the emotional-content of the words according to its broadest generality; and indeed in a specifically musical setting, toward which the word-verse merely held the position of the explanatory label beneath a painting.

>Where the melody did not go so far as to cast away the Content of the verse, and employ the vowels and consonants of its syllables as a mere material for the singer's mouth to chew, there the connecting bond between the verse and melody remained the speaking accent.—Gluck's endeavour, as I have already mentioned, was only directed to gaining from the speaking accent a vindication for the melodic accent, which before his time had been mostly wayward as regards the verse. If, however, in his sole concern for a melodically-strengthened but otherwise faithful reproduction of the natural speaking-expression, the musician held to the rhetorical accent as the only thing that could afford a natural and intelligible bond between the talk and the melody,—then he had at like time to completely upset the verse: for he had to lift out of it the Accent, as the only thing to be dwelt on, and must let fall all the other intonations, whether of an imaginary prosodic 'quantity' or of the end-rhyme....

CONT.

[Anonymous No.17476758]

>>17476749
>... He thus passed over the Verse for the same reasons as those which decided the intelligent actor to speak it as naturally-accented Prose. But the musician herewith dissolved into prose not only the verse, but also his own melody; for, of that melody which merely reinforced by Tone the rhetorical accent of a verse already disbanded into prose, there remained nothing over but a musical prose.

[Anonymous No.17477052]

>>17472640
ctrl + f this book

nietzsche
>Wagner sums up modernity. It can’t be helped, one must first become a Wagnerian

proust
> I shall present the discovery of Time regained in the sensations induced by the spoon, the tea, etc., as an illumination à la Parsifa

joyce
>Joyce’s primary allegiance was to bel canto opera. He also treasured Gluck and Mozart, music of the Renaissance and the Baroque, and old Irish airs. It was a determinedly anti-Romantic canon, one in which the heavygoing Wagner seemed to have no place. Indeed, Joyce took many swipes at the composer in later decades, although one informed observer thought him disingenuous

mishima
>Yukio Mishima filmed an act of seppuku to the tune of Tristan

etc.

the thesis is that wagner shaped modern art more than any other artist. artists either were influenced by or were reacting to either wagner or wagnerism

[Anonymous No.17477140]

>>17472055
i dont have a sufficient answer but i did watch the first two acts of tristan yesterday without reading the libretto or knowing german. you just go in blind and let visual cues and the music speak for the drama. the details are secondary in that you dont need to understand every word of isolde lamenting for 20 minutes with some expository bullshit and her history with tristan. the drama unfolds such that there's an ecstatic payoff after tristan and isolde meet, have visibly awkward tension, and then ravish each other after they drink the potion.

i saw rhinegold and valkyrie at the met a few summers ago when live performances were a thing and there is a real magic to wagner's high moments. the prelude to the rhinemaidens, the descent into nibelheim, and flight of the valkyries (although the contrived applause kind of ruins it), it rules.

that being said you're well within your right to never buy a ticket to a full wagner opera, there are moments when i wanted to fucking scream how paralyzed i was with bored frustration. but it's not the worst way to spend an evening

[Anonymous No.17478227]

>>17476322
>schumann
Absolutely dogshit take. Schumann epitomized romanticism. Go listen to Kreisleriana.

[Anonymous No.17478236]

>>17477052
I was looking into the books, but it had several bad reviews on Amazon saying it was mostly about Wagner's antisemitism. Is it worth a read?

[Anonymous No.17478314]

>>17476397
>I listen to Wagner alot, I like his music.
Sure, his compositions aren't horrific by any means, but they pale in comparison to other romantics or his successors like Schoenberg, Webern et cetera.
>You go away and whine about national socialism some place else
Where did I whine about national socialism? The Nazi's were philistines, they had no understanding of music whatsoever.

[Anonymous No.17478388]

>>17478236
i listened to the audiobook which made it less a chore. i probably wouldn't have "read" it otherwise. it's basically a catalog of people having positive and negative reactions to wagner/wagnerism. if that sounds interesting to you then try it out. it's fairly even-handed considering that to normies, wager naturally goes with national socialism.

[Anonymous No.17478520]

>>17468283
Learn German (Pro tip: You won't)

>>17468701
You only know shit operas, check out Wozzeck

>>17478236
Alot of leftist intellectuals such as Adorno and Thomas Mann have engaged deeply with Wagners work, I recall a quote from Mann where he said that Wagner consistently puts the most genius takes between shitty NPC talk

Oh and those superficial comments are bullshit on the level of clickbait theory channels like adam neely (oh shit i will get hate for this kek) or 12tone

[Anonymous No.17478530]

>>17474910
I actually post on /classical/ anon. Don’t be foolish

[Anonymous No.17478540]

>>17470335
Mahler is literally the culmination of Brahms and Wagners style lmfao

[Anonymous No.17478560]

FIRETRUCK MUSIC

[Anonymous No.17478637]

>>17478520
>Learn German
I've got the book 'German for reading' by Karl Sandberg. It's a daunting challenge, but I'm willing to give it a go. How long did it take you to learn German?

[Anonymous No.17479758]

Bump.

[Anonymous No.17479855]

>>17477052
Joyce was massively influenced by Wagner anon, I'd even say more so than Mann.

[Anonymous No.17479867]

>>17477052
journalist from new york, nuff said
"rest is noise" was just a collection of gossip and anecdotes
>and then stravinsky stopped answering his calls!

[Anonymous No.17479928]

>>17478560
>it's funny cuz pompiers (firemen) has the same prefix as pompous
>i'm gonna post this pun in every wagner thread

[Anonymous No.17480239]

>>17468283
buy him a drink

[Anonymous No.17480581]

>>17479867
Have you read all of The Rest is Noise? Can you go into more detail about it? It's a book that my friends insist I should read as they know my love for modern classical music, but I have always been suspicious of "must read" books on specialist subjects since they are so often meretricious.

[Anonymous No.17480624]

>>17468701
t. yes I'm American, how could you tell

[Anonymous No.17480684]

>>17468701
myself

[Anonymous No.17481531]

Wagner? More like Nigger.

[Anonymous No.17482260]

>>17480581
Not worth reading if you're already into contemporary music, unless you live for the anecdotes.

[Anonymous No.17483499]

>>17482260
I mean, I'm not against anecdotes, especially when it's about composers being assholes to each other, but a whole 700 page book about that? Nah.

[Anonymous No.17483860]

>>17479928
Based Apu poster.

[Anonymous No.17484276]

>makes a four hour opera about a wound that wont heal
>makes a four hour opera with the protagonist in a state of dying for the whole last 1/3
What was he thinking?

[Anonymous No.17484733]

>Isolde tells her of how she happened upon a stranger who called himself Tantris. She discovered during Tantris' recovery, however, that he was actually Tristan
bravo richard

[Anonymous No.17484847]

>>17484733
It's symbolic bro.

[Anonymous No.17485281]

>>17471836
kek, beginning of the Dutchman...

[Anonymous No.17485305]

>>17472206
Thank you, Wagner poster.

[Anonymous No.17485335]

>>17470335
Imagine typing this and thinking you are smart at the same time.

[Anonymous No.17485362]

>>17468283
>Solti directed performances w/ Chicago Philharmonic

[Anonymous No.17485367]

>>17485335
It's a pasta, unless the same anon just posts the same thing every thread.

[Anonymous No.17486233]

>>17473446
you have to be 18 to post here

[Anonymous No.17486514]

>>17486233
Hey, leave him alone.

[Anonymous No.17486560]

>>17472797
Cite those studies, please.

[Anonymous No.17487035]

Has his head ever actually been measured by looking at the photos?

[Anonymous No.17487429]

>>17470335
Nietzsche was first friends with and then hated Wagner, anything bad he wrote about Wagners music was because he was because of his personal disputes. He even admitted to liking Parsifal later which is deeply rooted in Christian mythology.
On the other hand, any books that Wagner published were moronic and not worth reading.
Oh and as a small bonus for all you righty bois ITT
>Nietzsche was disgusted with the antisemitism in his time. Anything antisemitic in his work was put there after his death by his sister on behalf of her retarded husband
>Thomas Mann finaly left Germany after the Nazis got super salty because he held a speech about Wagner in Amsterdam in which he stated that Wagner was actually left wing for his time period

[Anonymous No.17487503]

>>17487429
>righty
>Wagner was actually left wing for his time period

Mental retard, Left and Right on that period means Capitalism and Socialism/Marxism.
I can show you speeches where Hitler, Mosley and Mussolini claim themselves to be left wing/Socialist, Hitler socialism being a mix of eugenics and stealing resources and soil from others states i.e Living Space.


Wagner is a Nativist and has utterly Contempt for Jews, as you can easily see in this video.
https://youtu.be/nRJApVjvxJE?t=203

>On the other hand, any books that Wagner published were moronic and not worth reading.

False equivalence, Wagner books are niche about Music and Drama, In contrast, Nietzsche books contaim a greater variety of subjects.

>Nietzsche was disgusted with the antisemitism ...

Yes and No, Nietzsche has found Contempt about the racial prejudice that Jews did suffered, He did have Contempt about Judaism as a faith and his analize of Master and Slave Morality did inspire the believed about Jewish "parasitism"

>on behalf of her retarded husband

Are you by any chance a Jew? that would explain the amount of seething.

[Anonymous No.17487514]

>>17487429
>On the other hand, any books that Wagner published were moronic and not worth reading.
>Oh and as a small bonus for all you righty bois ITT
>>Nietzsche was disgusted with the antisemitism in his time. Anything antisemitic in his work was put there after his death by his sister on behalf of her retarded husband
Holly mother of cringe, just talk normally dude. Wagner's own books are immensely original, Heidegger even considered them the primary aesthetics and conception of art between Hegel and Nietzsche, young Nietzsche was strongly influenced by them as well (don't forget Nietzsche was an expert of Wagner's works, and read his Opera and Drama (1852), and Beethoven (1870) extensively). Also, yeah I'm sure we don't have original copies of Nietzsche's publications, lmao, are you literally retarded? If what you say is true about Nietzsche not being purposefully contradictory about antisemitism (because his opinion is a lot more complex than just for or against), then every possible figure of academic modernity post-WW2 would have jumped on it as quick as possible, and his sister would have removed any statements against Germany and for Jews prior to any of it at all.

>>Thomas Mann finaly left Germany after the Nazis got super salty because he held a speech about Wagner in Amsterdam in which he stated that Wagner was actually left wing for his time period
Mann was retarded. Nobody's surprised by the fact that Mann is saying something like this, it just reflects his obvious political bias.

[Anonymous No.17487525]

>>17487429
>>17487429
>On the other hand, any books that Wagner published were moronic and not worth reading.
>Oh and as a small bonus for all you righty bois ITT
>>Nietzsche was disgusted with the antisemitism in his time. Anything antisemitic in his work was put there after his death by his sister on behalf of her retarded husband
Holly mother of cringe, just talk normally dude. Wagner's own books are immensely original, Heidegger even considered them the primary aesthetics and conception of art between Hegel and Nietzsche, young Nietzsche was strongly influenced by them as well (don't forget Nietzsche was an expert of Wagner's works, and read his Opera and Drama (1852), and Beethoven (1870) extensively). Also, yeah I'm sure we don't have original copies of Nietzsche's publications, lmao, are you literally retarded? If what you say is true about Nietzsche not being purposefully contradictory about antisemitism (because his opinion is a lot more complex than just for or against), then every possible figure of academic modernity post-WW2 would have jumped on it as quick as possible, and his sister would have removed any statements against Germany and for Jews prior to any of it at all.

>>Thomas Mann finaly left Germany after the Nazis got super salty because he held a speech about Wagner in Amsterdam in which he stated that Wagner was actually left wing for his time period
Mann was retarded. Nobody's surprised by the fact that Mann is saying something like this, it just reflects his obvious political bias.

Also it's painfully obvious that you're just repeating talking points of Mann.

[Anonymous No.17487777]

Dubs and Wagner is right about literally everything.

[Anonymous No.17487802]

>>17487503
Not that guy, but if you honestly believe the estate of Nietzsche wasn't tinkered with by his ideologically motivated sister, you are factually incorrect. I don't know if "anything antisemitism" was manufactured by Elisabeth, but she is definately to blame for Nietzsche being read as an antisemitist in early 20th century Germany.

[Anonymous No.17487817]

>>17476039
>kitsch.
Please stop using this word. It’s clear you don’t know what it means.

[Anonymous No.17488545]

NIETZSCHEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

[Anonymous No.17488956]

>>17472792
How could Bayreuth have fallen so far?

[Anonymous No.17489739]

Bump.

[Anonymous No.17489923]

>>17468701
At a certain point you become bored with shallow entertainment and you keep lusting for art with more depth and nuance and eventually you end up with Wagner / classical

[Anonymous No.17489945]

>>17470335
Nietzche called Parsifal the finest work of music he had heard

[Anonymous No.17490016]

What is the meaning of the Eucharist for Wagner?

https://youtu.be/dzeNnoMmsjM?t=5764

[Anonymous No.17490380]

>>17487777
You got quads, what does that mean?

[Anonymous No.17490394]

>>17490380
He was double right.

[Anonymous No.17492231]

>>17478637
native speaker :D