[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 63 KB, 800x526, david foster wallace.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17365309 No.17365309 [Reply] [Original]

>America’s culture had a uniquely brutal and alienating way of brainwashing its males from an early age into all kinds of damaging beliefs and superstitions about what being a so-called ‘real man’ was, such as competitiveness instead of concert, winning at all costs, dominating others through intelligence or will, being strong, not showing your true emotions, depending on others seeing you as a real man in order to reassure yourself of your manhood, seeing your own value solely in terms of accomplishments, being obsessed with your career or income, feeling as if you were constantly being judged or on display, etc.

Was he right?

>> No.17365320

It did. And that was a good thing.

>> No.17365332

>>17365309
wow, what a faggotron.
>America’s culture had a uniquely brutal and alienating way of brainwashing its males from an early age into all kinds of POSITIVE USEFUL FUVKING TRAITS aren't you lucky that we liberals got in there to ruin it all, kek

>> No.17365349

Some of those are good things

>> No.17365378

>>17365349
They're all good. I imagine he wrote this just to impress a chick or two. At least, I hope.

>> No.17365382

>>17365309
How is this different from Greece or Rome?

>> No.17365387

>>17365378
They aren't. Faggots and repressed males are the same.

>> No.17365397

>>17365382
America maybe.

>> No.17365401

before the industrial revolution all men worldwide had these traits in surplus, afterwards the west gave those traits up and soon shall the east and africa as well thanks to the proliferation of technology. the whole world is doomed to become basedboys

>> No.17365410

>>17365387
Glib and unconvincing.

>> No.17365415

>>17365382
How is it different from almost every society that has ever existed on the planet?

>> No.17365459

>>17365309
Nothing manly about bourgeois values

>> No.17365604

Qutb was far more penetrating and articulate.
>In the ancient world, man first believed in the unknown power of nature and around it wove myths and legends. Then, he believed in religion, and his soul was flooded with its lights and revelations. Then, he believed in art,and his yearnings materialized as colors, tunes, and rhythms. And finally, after his self had been torn between a myriad of faiths, colors of feelings, differing manifestations of life’s images, and the exaggerations of imagination, he believed in science. This belief in science took place only after his soul had been tamed by religion, his senses edified by art, and his behavior pruned by convocation and after his values and principles had been shaped by the reality of history and his free yearnings.
>In America, man was born with science, and thus believed in it alone. In fact, he only believed in one kind o.f science, and that was applied science. Since he received nature as an untamed, stubborn virgin, and fought to build his homeland with his bare hands, applied science was his greatest ally in his violent struggle. Applied science reached out to him with effective tools for creating, building, organizing, and producing.
>These combinations of entanglements and of waves of people naturally encouraged and fostered primitive characteristics in this new nation, and ignored and resisted the elevated characteristics of some of the nation’s individuals and groups. So the primal urges were revitalized, as if man retraced his first steps, with one difference, in the case of America, primitive man is armed with science, with which he was born, and which guided his steps. And science in itself, and especially applied science, plays no role in the field of human values, or in the world of the soul and feelings. And this narrowed his horizons, shrank his soul, limited his feelings, and decreased his place at the global feast, which is so full of patterns and colors.

>> No.17365614

pop culture guy right? something about incest?

>> No.17365619

>>17365309
yes
he is describing the sort of american cutthroat capitalist exceptionalist mentality and toxic masculine values encouraging repression of emotions, posturing, competitiveness, status, etc
even the supposed free thinkers

>> No.17365626

>>17365387
>C-chad is actually g-gay Stacy you should be with me~!
>shut up and buy my bathwater, simp!
>o-ok...

>> No.17365643

>>17365604
>It seems the American is primitive in his appreciation of muscular strength and the strength of matter in general.To the extent that he overlooks principles, values, and manners in his personal life, in his family life, and in his social life, except in the realm of work, and economic and monetary relationships. This primitiveness can be seen in the spectacle of the fans as they follow a game of football, played in the rough American style, which has nothing to do with its name (football), for the foot does not take part in the game. Instead, each player attempts to catch the ball with his hands and run with it toward the goal, while the players of the opposing team attempt to tackle him by any means necessary, whether this be a blow to his stomach, or crushing his arms and legs with great violence and ferocity. The sight of the fans as they follow this game, or watch boxing matches or bloody, monstrous wrestling matches... is one of animal excitement born of their love for hardcore violence. Their lack of attention to the rules and sportsmanship to the extent that they are enthralled with the flowing blood and crushed limbs, crying loudly, everyone cheering for his team. Destroy his head. Crush his ribs.Beat him to a pulp.This spectacle leaves no room for doubt as to the primitiveness of the feelings of those who are enamored with muscular strength and desire it.

>> No.17365723

>>17365309
how would he know if America's way of inculcating these values is uniquely brutal or alienating?

>> No.17365746
File: 764 KB, 812x631, 1611265183227.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17365746

In a fully realized Eugenic utopia this would be possible, but as long as the intelligent man and ignorant man has to coexist amongst each other, brutality and "toxic masculinity" is a necessity for survival.

>> No.17365769

>>17365723
he just shat that bullcrap

>> No.17365785

>>17365723
you ever met a malding “tough guy”? probably the number one on my list of people to avoid at all costs

>> No.17365858

>>17365309
Is it unique?
What cultures aren't churning out men who desire to act as men do?

>> No.17365925

>>17365332
>traits are defined as positive to you
>you see the traits as positive
neat

>> No.17365933

>>17365746
if it's necessary for survival why is it not uniform across all cultures

>> No.17365938

>>17365858
"wanting to act like a man" is not what is being talked about
the definition of what a man acts like is what is being talked about.

>> No.17365945

>>17365933
I genuinely don't consider any culture outside the West to be valid.

>> No.17366060

>>17365945
so what, what good is that

>> No.17366076
File: 34 KB, 200x257, 6F634E8E-682C-43BC-9C0F-4E115BA9902E.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17366076

>>17365604

>> No.17366124

>>17366060
Eh, what good is anything?

>> No.17366184

He's just caught up in abstractions, and that's what did him in. Many such cases!

>> No.17366799

>>17365309
He's right. If you look at studies of happiness people who feel like they're part of a community, contributing to society, and have loving family/friends, are usually happier despite having health issues or a lower income. Everything he described, especially taken to the extreme, have a way of alienating people and fostering enemies. There's a balance to everything of course, but pretending to be the sort of "real man" he describes and others in this thread praise isn't a good idea idea

>> No.17366807

>>17365626
>the greeks were metrosexual consoomers

>> No.17366816

>>17365309
>depending on others seeing you as a real man in order to reassure yourself of your manhood
Needing external validation is exactly the opposite of a real man.

>> No.17367025

>>17366124
What good is your shit take?

>> No.17367068

>>17366816
I disagree. Part of being a man is holding yourself out like one and being acknowledged as one. It is probably impossible to ever really feel like a man without, for example, having sex with a female as females are supposed to be. It is only when your tumescent and muscular body is pressed up against her soft and pliable one that your maleness really comes to the fore. I'm not just talking about genitals but the all of it. Men get hard because they are hard. They are the ramrod and if you never force a ramrod in, it's not ever really a ramrod but a disassociated stick.

>> No.17367072

>>17365604
I read it, it was definitely more thoughtful in its description and critique of American culture than the DFW quote (which read like a, though well crafted, Seattle drug addicts take on masculinity in America).
Is the Muslim Brotherhood actually a terrorist organization or is that just the Israel lobby talking? Would any of his work be valuable to a Christian?

>> No.17367097

>>17367068
>I disagree.
stopped reading there and said "what a faggot" out loud.

>> No.17367116

>>17365309
>America BRAINWASHED their males into being SUCCESSFUL

I find it funny how the new EU education policy is exactly what he described but i guess he would have praised it since its worded differently

>> No.17367118

>>17367072
Qutb isn't worth readings unless you're Muslim or interested in the period imo. The MB back then was also very different compared to now as well. Not the person you're replying to, but an interesting fact about Qutb is that he turned into more of a fundamentalist, rigid Islamist after being jailed and tortured by the secular government.

>> No.17367133

>>17365604
This has a legitimate point but the writing style is pretentious and self-important as fuck
>>17365643
This is just retarded, football is called football because it's an offshoot of the sport that ultimately split into soccer(football) and rugby in Europe, which had elements of both. And if you look at the 2 other purely American sports, baseball and basketball, neither are particularly violent. Boxing and martial arts have always existed in some form in almost every civilization. For fucks sake

>> No.17367144

>>17367133
It is a translation

>> No.17367161

>>17365925
Problem with liberals is they want to tear down our values without providing an alternative. That's why they are so often degenerate.

>> No.17367173

>>17366124
I mean where did you want the conversation to go when you came into this thread

>> No.17367177

>>17367161
>needing to be told what to value
ngmi

>> No.17367187

>>17367161
there are definitely alternatives being presented

>> No.17367192

>>17367161
The problem with liberals is they want to stop me from calling people niggers and other puerile things.

>> No.17367312

>>17365309
All cultures warped by Capital will have their unique way of doing this. America's is pretty funny, as far as they go, but by no means all that special.

>> No.17367317

Holy fuck you are all dumb.

>> No.17367321

dfw always has the most banal normie takes i don't think he ever had an insightful thought in his life

>> No.17367342

>>17367317
what about me

>> No.17367354

>>17367118
Thanks anon -- think I'm gonna read "The America I Have Seen' (thanks CIA!) and probably never read him again unless I really enjoy the rest of the work

>> No.17367358

>>17367321
>banal
>anal

>> No.17367373

>>17367321
Agreed. His books are only slightly better than Franzen and Foer and Eugenides, contemporaries of his which have all been duly forgotten in a short decade or two. He should have been placed in the bin along with them.

>> No.17367387

>>17367373
infinite jest is just such a good title that it will sell forever

>> No.17367426

>>17367342
Post comment.

>> No.17367430

>>17367321
There was one where he threatened a student for criticising a girl. Unfortunately can't find it anymore.

>> No.17367466

>>17367072
>Is the Muslim Brotherhood actually a terrorist organization
The Muslim Brotherhood is more like a right wing Christian Democrat party than a terrorist organization.
Tariq Ramadan did an interesting interview on the subject actually, it might be interesting to you.
https://youtu.be/KlVHPflOljY

>> No.17367502

I wish this fag didn't kill himself so he could live long enough to see the type of dysfunctional incohesive and ugly society these vapid and empty platitudes produced

>> No.17367977
File: 51 KB, 500x337, 525cfec27f51fc9685c97ecc8a4e6045.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17367977

>>17365309
he was. when women talk about toxic masculinity, they mean exactly this. men became hypocrites, "manliness" became virtue signalling, larping, but in the end you faggots are unbearable, people living with you will get literally sick. it is even manly to smoke nicotine! while in reality men smoke nicotine to behave like testosterone less women and old weak people. "stoicism". suffering is good. on the pic to pigs in shit are real men, and the one enjoying freedom is gay. slave mentality.

>> No.17367997

Yea he is very much correct. Personally my life is going pretty darn well (gf, friends, in the middle of getting a profitable education) but I still go into an unhealthy combative mood when around other males.

>> No.17368004

>>17365925
except they are litteral fucking gold compared to your neo gnostic culture of eternal surrender and humiliation.

>> No.17368011

>>17367997
Oh I should add that I'm not sure it's a uniquely US thing. Maybe a capitalist thing, but I'm not even sure of that. Might just be an unfortunate evolutionary heritage.

>> No.17368028

>>17366807
it's not me arguing for sexual fucking repression it's you that defends the lgbtq political movement for any reason in any circumstances and yet still call rightists gay as if it would be bad thing in you book.

>> No.17368053

>>17365401
The world in general did because people didn't discuss themselves openly at all. It was all business all the time. Now we actually talk about mental states and what not.

>> No.17368070

>The First thing that strikes a traveler in the United States is the innumerable multitude of those who seek to emerge from their original condition; and the second is the rarity of lofty ambition to be observed in the midst of the universally ambitious stir of society. No Americans are devoid of a yearning desire to rise, but hardly any appear to entertain hopes of great magnitude or to pursue very lofty aims. All are constantly seeking to acquire property, power, and reputation.

>The Americans never use the word peasant, because they have no idea of the class which that term denotes; the ignorance of more remote ages, the simplicity of rural life, and the rusticity of the villager have not been preserved among them; and they are alike unacquainted with the virtues, the vices, the coarse habits, and the simple graces of an early stage of civilization.

>> No.17368155

That passage isn't anti-competition...the sort of thinking DFW is talking about is basically the myopic Guinness Book of World Records mentality ...getting a world record is not like writing the book of the century, or becoming a great essayist or whatever. The pathway to real achievement is not that linear.

Was it Thoreau who compared the respect granted to those industrialists who had made a fortune in tearing up whole forests to the denigration of those who merely wanted to appreciate a day's trek through the same forest?

>> No.17368250
File: 387 KB, 700x934, 1489692115612.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17368250

>>17365309
I took a creative nonfiction course with him at Pomona back in '94. We weren't allowed to show anyone our essays outside of the class for some reason. He seemed naturally intelligent, didnt need to look at any notes or textbooks or prepare for any lectures, he just knew his stuff and was super casual.

I saw him talking to a girl on campus one day. He uncharacteristically wore a Fila sweatsuit, the kind that looks like it's made from the same material as parachutes, and trainer sneakers with a matching bandana. That was his pussy hunt outfit apparently. Several times a week, same outfit, I'd see him hitting on women in it. I once saw him wearing it while carrying an identical outfit from the dry cleaners, he had like 4 sets of same Fila sweatsuit.

I asked him about it in class and he said we aren't allowed to discuss anything unrelated to class while inside class, the same way we can't show anyone outside of class our essays. A student called out "but Dostoevsky isn't in this class and last week you talked about replicating his black tea obsession to test its affects on your own writing". Wallace stared blankly at the student with dead eyes for 30 seconds in dead silence then said "you just got knocked down a full letter grade. Any other smart asses? Didn't think so." and pushed up his glasses with his index finger.

I remember telling myself this guy will either be super successful or kill himself.

>> No.17368619

>>17367187
what sort of alternatives?
to hold weakness in all its forms as the pinnacle of virtue?
diversity, inclusion, equality... are words second-raters, consumers, parasites all use to justify robbing the producers of their work

>> No.17369700
File: 82 KB, 226x274, bdc.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17369700

>>17365309
>climbs the wall of a woman's house
>throws woman out of car
>plugs his students

>> No.17369713

>>17368155
Your interpretation ignores the plain meaning of the words he uses. Desperate to somehow make him less soiboi, you are performing seemingly absurd mental gymastics to shoehorn in an untenable interpretation.

>> No.17369731

>>17367317
Yes. I am not sure why I still bother reading threads on /lit/.

>> No.17369759

>>17368004
You make a pretty big presumptive leap there, amigo. It's unquestionable that they leave a lot to be desired when compared to other, nobler, conflicting traits.

>> No.17369766
File: 70 KB, 470x470, 1598167768819.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17369766

>>17368619
>what sort of alternatives?
>competitiveness instead of concert
he even goes so far as to provide examples and still that's too much for you

>> No.17369779

>>17367097
based real man

>> No.17369821

>>17365945
There are Western cultures outside of America that don't work like that. Europe has parts that still have a traditional view of masculinity that doesn't shame monogamy and being loving to your wife/husband and children. It's mostly just America with this problem.

>> No.17370086

>>17367977
you seem to be a gigantic faggot

>> No.17370101

>>17368250
kek

>> No.17370164

>>17369821
it is mostly just you people with this problem, actually

t. western 25 year old married homemaker with his third anniversary in 1 month