/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17161977]

Where do I start with Wagner?

[Anonymous No.17161978]

>>17161977
Poetry or prose?

[Anonymous No.17161980]

>>17161977
tristan und isolde

[Anonymous No.17161981]

https://counter-currents.com/2013/05/wagner-bicentennial-symposiumwagner-as-metapolitical-revolutionary/

https://counter-currents.com/2020/05/remembering-richard-wagner-7/

[Anonymous No.17161983]

>>17161978
Both

[Anonymous No.17162027]

>>17161977
Develop a liking for his music, listen to all the preludes and overtures. The best work by Wagner to watch on the whole first is usually Tannhauser, from start to finish it's an amazing, simple and memorable piece. That and Lohengrin and Rienzi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6OQCncAiC8

[Anonymous No.17162054]

>>17161980
This

[Anonymous No.17162167]

>>17161977
He's a brilliant thinker, and in many respects of his thought (especially on art), still hasn't been superseded. Most of early Nietzsche's understanding of art comes from Wagner, and it's a mistake to think he necessarily went beyond Wagner's own ideas on art, or even covered much of the same breadth of Wagner's ideas on it. A lot can be said about him and his lifelong writing, but I recommend starting with his later works at least post 1860, being much easier to understand and the final conclusions of his life. Specifically his "Regeneration writings," literally the very last things he ever wrote.

- Religion and Art
- "What Boots this Knowledge?"
- Know Thyself
- Introduction to a work of Count Gobineau's
- Hero-dom and Christendom (last finished essay)

Other very worthwhile works of his (mostly later years) are:

- Judaism in Music
- Beethoven (1870, and his major book on art post-1860, the only work of his with a modern translation but will cost you over a $100 to get)
- The Destiny of Opera
- What is German?
- Modern (continuation of Judaism in Music)
- On Poetry and Composition

He also has a beautiful and sweet short story trilogy about a young German composer who considers himself a disciple to Beethoven, and are very useful for understand Wagner's early understanding and feeling about art, such as his lifelong obsession with unifying word and music:

- A Pilgrimage to Beethoven
- An End in Paris
- A Happy Evening

That said, he doesn't feel it necessary to restate everything he has said in the past. At this point you might as well dive into his major works from the middle of the century, where most of his thought on art, history, science, psychology and generally philosophy are included. Though there is much of it he would later reject or improve upon, and is written with the brashness and arguably unnecessary length (most of them are book-long) of a younger Wagner which can make it difficult to tell what he's exactly trying to say, they are extremely brilliant, original and important works. But a philosopher not being his primary disposition, and feeling the need to say much and all with an artistic slant, so as to convey the meaningful feeling prior to these ideas, he crams a lot into each paragraph. Often ideas of his can sound more eccentric than they are because of this, but with persistence you'll understand. They are (from what I know):

- Art and Revolution
- The Art-Work of the Future
- A Communication to my Friends
- Opera and Drama

But there is one problem in reading Wagner in English, the only translation of any of his prose works (except his Beethoven) is from the 1890's, incredibly poor and often purposefully mistranslates for the benefit of Wagner's reception in England at the time. For the most part it suffices, though it makes those already arduous revolutionary (mid-century) works incredibly tiresome. If you can read German then find the originals.

[F. Gardner, MFA, BA (Hons.) - (...) No.17162172]

>writes tristan chord
>dooms western civilization to postmodernism and self hatred
why did he do it bros?

[Anonymous No.17162210]

>>17161977
Fagner was a musician, not a writer

[Anonymous No.17162219]

Mein Kampf

[Anonymous No.17162222]

>>17162172
I'll repost what I wrote in another thread:

>The decline was a response of the culture, in a literal causal sense yes Wagner led to that cultural reaction, but music would further and instead we would have had no way to radically situate ourselves to the decline of music in the future. This is not Plato's time, where music can only go so far, be it the highest holy music or inharmonious drumming, you cannot just write that "music today has degraded and such is why," and better laws to save it and regenerate it; music is a high artform now. In the spirit of modern man, Wagner, as movement and art, will allow music to continue, and exist as a moral medium. And he has already done so much.

>>“A direct relation to morality has not as yet been generally ascribed to music. In fact music has even been judged as morally harmless. But that is just not so. Could an effeminate and frivolous taste remain without influence on a man’s morality? Both go hand in hand and act reciprocally upon each other. We could refer back to the Spartans, who forbade a certain type of music as injurious to morals. But instead, let us just think back to our own immediate past. With tolerable certainty we can state that those who have been inspired by Beethoven’s music have been more active and energetic citizens-of-state than those bewitched by Rossini, Bellini, and Donizetti, a class consisting for the most part of rich and lordly do-nothings.”
-- From the article “A National Theater”

>By your causal logic Beethoven too could be blamed for nigger rap.

[Anonymous No.17162235]

>>17162172
Asking again: Did you really go to NYU? And do you know Bernard Ferguson? If you don't respond I'll assume the answer is no.

[F. Gardner, MFA, BA (Hons.) - (...) No.17162322]

>>17162235
This is the first time I posted with this name. I just thought it was funny bro.

[Anonymous No.17162332]

>>17162322
kill yourself bro

[Anonymous No.17162372]

>>17161977
What is Wagner's equivalent of Faust or Hamlet?

Which of his works, if any, most focuses on the primal and prior question of existence itself?

[F. Gardner, MFA, BA (Hons.) - (...) No.17162462]

>>17162332
Why would they need me you're their best customer

[Anonymous No.17162683]

>>17162372
I want an answer!

As of yet I have been unable to crack into the heart of Wagner as poet.

[Anonymous No.17162706]

kitschpomp

[Anonymous No.17162764]

.

[Anonymous No.17162769]

>>17162372
Parsifal

[Anonymous No.17162795]

>>17161977
The Flying Dutchman

[Anonymous No.17162799]

>>17162769
How so? How does Wagner define the question?

[Anonymous No.17162900]

What is the best recording of the act 1 Verwandlungsmusik of Parsifal?

[Anonymous No.17162902]

>>17161977
Bach is a better musician than he will ever be

[Anonymous No.17162925]

>>17162902
People who say this never actually listen to anything beyond Bach.

[Anonymous No.17163008]

>still no answer

[Anonymous No.17163013]

>>17162027
You mean Lohengrin and then Parsifal, Rienzite?

[Anonymous No.17163033]

>>17161980
Thirding this. Check out Carlos Kliebers version on youtube. This is one of my favorite things in this world. Kliebers is just a recording, no subtitles which is a shame because the words and music go together perfectly. But he is just my favorite conductor ever.

The ring cycle is great too, there is a sweet version produced by the cirque du soleil guy on Met Opera. Ring is fun because it's fuckin huge but also really watchable and epic. It also features the first heavy metal riff, the Nibelheim motif that is played on god damn anvils

[Anonymous No.17163086]

Does Wagner succeed in having the same profundity in his Ring cycle as in Aeschylus' Oresteia?

Did he successfully revive Greek tragedy?

[Anonymous No.17163251]

https://youtu.be/2Ojhx-cFsJw?t=334

(Brünnhilde, deeply moved, sinks in ecstasy on
Wotan's breast: he holds her in a long embrace.)
(She throws her head back again and, still
embracing Wotan, gazes with deep enthusiasm in his eyes.)

Thy brightly glittering eyes,
that, smiling, oft I caressed,
when valor won a kiss as guerdon,
when childish lispings of heroes' praise
from sweetest lips has flowed forth:
those gleaming radiant eyes
that oft in storms on me shone,
when hopeless yearning my heart had wasted,
when world's delights all my wishes wakened,
thro' wild wildering sadness:

once more today, lured by their light,
my lips shall give them love's farewell!
On mortal more blessed once may they beam:
on me, hapless immortal,
must they close now forever.
(He clasps her head in his hands.)
For so turns the god now from thee,
so kisses thy godhood away!
(He kisses her long on the eyes. She sinks back with
closed eyes, unconscious, in his arms. He gently bears
her to a low mossy mound, which is overshadowed
by a wide-spreading fir tree, and lays her upon it.)

(He looks upon her and closes her helmet: his eyes
then rest on the form of the sleeper, which he now
completely covers with the great steel shield of the
Valkyrie. He turns slowly away, then again turns
around with a sorrowful look.)

(He strides with solemn decision to the middle of
the stage and directs the point of his spear toward a
large rock.)

[Anonymous No.17163259]

>>17161977
start and end with his music anon.

[Anonymous No.17163264]

>>17163251
holy fucking CRINGE

[Anonymous No.17163290]

>>17163259
>start and end with his music anon.
Peak normie opinion.

[Anonymous No.17163296]

>>17163086
if he only wrote better poetry for it. Schopenhauer was right, it's painfully archaic and awkward on purpose, he got better with Tristan and Meistersinger.

[Anonymous No.17163304]

>>17162925
I mean anon is correct bach is on a different level than wagner and really everyone, but still mega cope to post about bach on a wagner thread

[Anonymous No.17163321]

>>17163290
maybe. But would this thread exist without Wagner's music? Would anything he wrote still be read today if he wasn't a genius composer? Probably not, and while that is not necessarily a definitive statement on the quality of his writing I still believe there are better people to read, whereas there aren't too many people that are better to listen to.

[Anonymous No.17163343]

>>17163296
The main reason the Ring poetry was like that, was out of his effort to attain the level of precision in his language, while also not have a billion repeats (and other similar problems) that exist in opera normally, but then in an opera 15 hours long.

That said, when his poetry is at its best (and it's not rare), it's an equal to Goethe or Shakespeare. It's just his poetry is particularly hard to translate (alliteration for example is practically impossible). And I don't think there's ever been a master translator who has decided to translate him.

It's pretty obvious Schopenhauer was unnecessarily harsh and even quite ignorant to what Wagner was trying to do.

[Anonymous No.17163397]

>>17163321
He's a movement on the whole, and his music is by its very structure much more than just music alone. The whole point is that he was a genius in music and so much more: he was a genius thinker, he was a genius dramatist, he was a genius poet (with all his problems; but again, whenever you take a serious critique of his poetry to hand, you come across the unity of all his endeavour, i.e. a whole movement, and the poetry is evaluated in that respect, but that's not to say his poetry isn't brilliant on its own, but it is inextricably confined to its purpose), and so on.

[Anonymous No.17163407]

>>17163304
>I mean anon is correct bach is on a different level than wagner and really everyone,
As I said in the other thread, you can't really say this, you can rank all the absolute greatest composers together, but trying to say one is better than another is just pointless. And as I also said again, chiefly with Bach more than any other, because of the absolute uniqueness of his fleshing out and perfecting of counterpoint and the fugue. Bach may be the greatest musician ever, but to say he's "on a different level," as in blatantly better than any other is foolish. It ignores how different Beethoven or Mozart were, how much they did that Bach never, or in this case, how utterly original Wagner was. And he wasn't a foreigner to counterpoint either.

[Anonymous No.17163440]

>>17161977
on >>>/mu/

[Anonymous No.17163450]

Does anyone know anything about the Die Meistersinger-Tannhauser connection?

Apparently Die Meistersinger was going to be a comedy mini-sequel (almost satyr play) to Tannhauser, with the same themes of Catholicism as in Tannhauser but post-Reformation, or something essentially Catholic but not specific in spirit. But it in any event, led to being a consciously Protestant post-Reformation work.

Does the relation between Tannhauser and Die Meistersinger, as medieval Christianity to post-Reformation Christianity still hold up?

[Anonymous No.17163452]

Seriously how can people listen to Wagner and enjoy this boring wandern? I bet you don’t even listen to him but portray him as le epic based and redpilled xDDD.

[Anonymous No.17163454]

>>17163440
see>>17162167
>>17162167
>>17162167
>>17162167
>>17162167

[Anonymous No.17163457]

>>17163454
see >>17163440

[Anonymous No.17163459]

>>17163457
on >>17162167

[Anonymous No.17163479]

>>17163454
>>17163457
>>17163459

[Anonymous No.17163499]

>>17163459
>>17163479
>>>/mu/

[Anonymous No.17163507]

>>17163479
>>17163499
--- > >>17162167

[Anonymous No.17163534]

>>17163507
>>>/mu/

[Anonymous No.17163552]

>>17163534
>>17162167

[Anonymous No.17163642]

>>17163552
>>>/mu/

[Anonymous No.17163704]

>>17163642
>>17162167

[Anonymous No.17163818]

>>17162706
No.

[Anonymous No.17163883]

>>17162769
Anon will you ever explain your reasons?

[Anonymous No.17164013]

there's a sort of dictionary with wagner takes on everything, compiled by glasenapp
https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_2wM5AAAAIAAJ/

>you can't read german
oh

good intro:
carl dahlhaus - wagner's music dramas

[Anonymous No.17164070]

>>17163454
>>17163457
>>17163459
>>17163479
>>17163499
>>17163507
>>17163534
>>17163552
>>17163642
>>17163704

[Anonymous No.17164154]

>>17164013
What is the reason for such a large bust I wonder.

[Anonymous No.17164159]

>>17164013
Very interesting link anon, I had no idea there was even this level of Wagner scholarship. But I guess that's just the surprise of an Anglo.

[Anonymous No.17164219]

>>17161977
Das Judentum in der Musik

[Anonymous No.17164493]

>>17161977
Judaism in music