/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17139144]

What are the best books that refute marxism?

[Anonymous No.17139158]

>>17139144
Probably the guy from six flags commercials. Just Google dancing guy from six flags and something should pop up.

[Anonymous No.17139160]

>>17139144
Any modern history book.

[Anonymous No.17139164]

>>17139144
Das Kapital

[Anonymous No.17139167]

>>17139144

[Anonymous No.17139177]

You rang?

[Anonymous No.17139179]

The Road to Serfdom

[Anonymous No.17139193]

>>17139144
refute which theories? which theses?

if you're just looking for a way to own epic twitter leftists just say "read econ 101" it makes them super mad

[Anonymous No.17139215]

Society of the Spectacle because in between noting that a cybernetics of signs has run amok Debord constantly bleats that we need a communist revolution. It's not happening Guy; it's turtles all the way down and your classes are as real as the commodities.

[Anonymous No.17139224]

>>17139144
Kołakowski
Bataille
Baudrillard

[Anonymous No.17139236]

>>17139144
Maoism and trotskyism duuuhhh

[Anonymous No.17139352]

>>17139224
the two frogs you listed were both marxists. they didn't so much refute marxism as revise it

[Anonymous No.17139367]

[Anonymous No.17139399]

>>17139144
This one

[Anonymous No.17139418]

>>17139164
This

[Anonymous No.17139481]

>>17139352
Bataille was a hard anti-communist and Baudrillard showed the productivist speculum in which marxism merely reflects capitalist metaphysics.

[Anonymous No.17139496]

>>17139224
>Bataille
he was a Stalinist

[Botched Bottok Surgery a.k.a Ƹ(...) No.17139503]

>>17139144

[Anonymous No.17139522]

>>17139144
Books aren't necessary, just look at practiced Marxism.
Theres a reason he was funded by angels. Marxist thought, when attempted, results in a more complete domination of the working class than even capitalism

[Anonymous No.17139546]

>>17139224
seconding Kolakowski

[Anonymous No.17139688]

Rather than 'refute' it is better to see what positive ideas are touched upon and where they could be expanded, taken further to see what lies beyond. As in >>17138742

[Anonymous No.17139696]

>>17139496
Wrong, read Sovereignty: it was ultimately an ambiguous, though largely hostile, stance toward Stalinism.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17139706]

>>17139144
The Unique and Its Property, Max Stirner
The Collected Bakunin

There’s much to haggle over in his economics, but it’s mostly still sound

[Anonymous No.17139709]

>>17139158
This? https://youtu.be/GYXZcd6imzA

[Anonymous No.17139887]

>>17139144
I think you should start with Marx himself to see what he is actually arguing for. I also recommend reading socialist critics of Marx when I found books about arguments against Marx from a right-wing perspective, they never had any idea what they were talking about. And you also have to have confident economic knowledge. I am not a Marxist but when I got into reading arguments about LTV and the falling rate of profit I had and still do a hard time understanding the arguments. I am planning to get into Karl Popper's Open Society and Its Enemies which argues against Marx maybe you can try that.

[Anonymous No.17139907]

The Book of Life

[Anonymous No.17139929]

>>17139144
no one can refute LTV, Marxist Analysis of Overproduction Crisis, Historical Materialism, there is nothing to refute really they are simple facts. Marx developed economics after Adam Smith and there is no one else with a different take

[Anonymous No.17139972]

>>17139929
Marxism exists in nineteenth-century thought like a fish in water: that is, it is unable to breathe anywhere else.

[Anonymous No.17140164]

>>17139144
How can Marxist socialism work? Even if his critiques of capitalism have some validity to them, he ignores some crucial aspects of human nature and sees class as the be all end all rather than just a part of the whole.

[Anonymous No.17140190]

>inb4 uneducated butthurt lefties reply

[Anonymous No.17140199]

>>17139929
I think the fall of communism in Eastern Europe is enough of a basis to reject Marxism with. The fact that Marx never worked day in life, and lived off his petty bourgeoisie factory maker Engels makes me highly skeptical he knew what he was talking about. And, none of the claims made here are empirically verifiable - you can't test any of his theories.
>>17140164
>How can Marxist socialism work?
Famine, starvation and terror. Its basically a religion for pious atheists.

[Anonymous No.17140208]

>>17140190
He was literally a commie you retard

[Anonymous No.17140220]

>>17140208
he WAS. he isn't anymore. keep seething

[Anonymous No.17140223]

>>17140199
>Famine, starvation and terror.
All of which are also present under capitalism, often even more so than under communism

[Anonymous No.17140237]

>>17140223
>All of which are also present under capitalism, often even more so than under communism
That's not even fucking true, the overwhelming majority of famines, with most deaths, were in communist countries Cambodia, China and Russia. That's another thing marxists do a lot, just lie about shit that's obviously fucking retarded

[Anonymous No.17140243]

>>17139144
pic related

[Anonymous No.17140246]

>>17140164
It can't. The only form of socialism that can realistically work is a nationalist form. We are more likely to see a nationalist backlash from unrestrained capitalism than a communist one because Marxism is overly focused on materialism. Nationalism is able to resonate deeper with people than class.

Most countries around the world are going through a phase of globalization in their societies. Their culture, traditions, identities are being debased for profit and liberal humanism. Globalization puts the local populations into a position where they will be replaced by immigrants from other countries who are willing to work for lower wages than native workers, thus driving down salaries and job opportunities because of capitalism. If people feel like they are losing their culture or heritage then they will want a strong government to protect them from other cultures and races.

They will feel their tribe and way of life are under attack, and national/racial identity are much more potent than class membership. There are only so many resources to go around, and those resources should be secured for your people, tribe, civilization, and family. Otherwise, competitor tribes with stronger kinship will overpower you.

Everyone is more interconnected, yet differences are emphasized and remain apparent. Tribalism is natural and remains innate in humans. The globalist multicultural experiment is failing. Nationalism and socialism are both collectivist and thus are more suited for each other than internationalist socialism rooted in liberal cosmopolitan individualism.

[Anonymous No.17140253]

>>17140223
Does capitalism propose it solves these issues?

[Anonymous No.17140274]

>>17139144
Hegels work go against Marxist ideas

[Anonymous No.17140275]

>>17140246
This just sounds really retarded and psuedo.

[Anonymous No.17140284]

>>17139158
based

[Anonymous No.17140287]

>>17140253
If it doesn’t, why should anyone have a moral obligation towards capitalism, then?

[Anonymous No.17140291]

>>17140246
Nationalism is backwards thinking that plays right into the hands of the bourgeoise by redirecting class consciousness to racial consciousness. It is one thing to love your country or people, but it is another to believe that this country should dominate all others or see the world in this sort of us vs them way. Nationalism not being rooted in material reality means it doesn't actually solve the problems.

Imo the idea of nationalism itself is fundamentally flawed. It is based upon the idea that we can somehow group large numbers of people together and give them all one identity, but it doesn't work. Firstly, there are so many differences within any given group that you cannot possibly group everyone into one category despite sharing a race. You would still be dividing them up into groups even if they were all white. There are too many differences in how people think, and this means that for any given large population of people it will be impossible to make them all one cohesive unit.

[Anonymous No.17140300]

>>17140246
>The globalist multicultural experiment is failing.
What empirical evidence can you provide for this claim?

[Anonymous No.17140313]

>>17139144
"The Devil and Karl Marx: Communism's Long March of Death, Deception, and Infiltration" -Paul Kengor
is made for giving the normies that think communism means sharing a crash course in reality. unlike a lot of the books that mimic the cryptic labyrinth writing of commies it is strait forward and to the point, and all well sourced directly from the communist leaders.

[Anonymous No.17140336]

>>17140300
Rise in identity politics and populist/anti immigration movements, popularity of people like Trump
>>17140291
Nationalism is rooted in real differences in terms of culture, race, and ethnicity. These are more significant to people than any sort of class membership. And you can generally observe behavioral trends and cultural practices across groups.

You can see the success of nationalists compared to marxists with connecting with the working classes to see what I mean. Nationalism and racial identity wont go away, and socialists seem to think they can if you just abolish capitalism.

[Anonymous No.17140356]

>>17140313
>The Devil and Karl Marx: Communism's Long March of Death, Deception, and Infiltration
That book is pretty terrible because it focuses on Leninoids and Stalinoids who have important differences in thought from Marx. He doesn't get straight to the point, but lie. Although, its really stupid like about stuff like this when we have evidence of what actually happened in the Soviet Union and China from their archives. Its more complex than your retarded ass "dey were just superevil n wanted to kill people" non-sense. I fully recommend Stephan Cohen's "Bukharin and the Bolshevik Revolution" or literally anything by people who actually have a formal education in Soviet History or even Marxology. There is literally no need to be this stupid and uneducated.

[Anonymous No.17140374]

>>17140336
>Rise in identity politics and populist/anti immigration movements, popularity of people like Trump
Trump was defeated, and he barely won the last time. His win was basically due to the structural problems of American democracy where the EC votes, not the popular vote. He never had majority support.
>populist/anti immigration movements,
You have be more specific than this - what movements? You're being vague.

[Anonymous No.17140375]

>>17140287
>Moral Obligation

Well there's your problem

[Anonymous No.17140380]

>>17140375
>we should have no moral obligations
>when capitalism is quite literally centered around debt and the expectation of it being paid back

[Anonymous No.17140389]

>>17140380
>we should have no moral obligations
Yes!
>when capitalism is quite literally centered around debt and the expectation of it being paid back
Just don't pay your loan, lie and use deceit to get out of it, have the courage to use violence to get what you want

[Anonymous No.17140398]

>>17140374
>populist/anti immigration movements
European nationalist parties like Le Pen, AfD, Swedish Democrats, FPO etc gaining votes after the refugee crisis and terrorist attacks. "America First" anti immigration populism in America.

The identity impulses apply to non whites as well. Movements like BLM and the #woke crowd are very focused on race.

I think nationalism and racial tribalism are just too strong and innate in human beings which will prevent the sort of internationalist communism from ever being achieved. I can't see socialism not devolving into tension without some sort of unifier.

[Anonymous No.17140405]

>>17140336
>You can see the success of nationalists compared to marxists with connecting with the working classes to see what I mean.

lol this is just because the working class are routinely lied to and deluded by megalomaniacal deceivers. Receipt rather than rejection of fake information doesn't make the information any less fake.

[Anonymous No.17140412]

>>17140405
>Can't convince idiots

Oh nonono marxbros

[Anonymous No.17140433]

>>17140356
half the book is on marx life and work, the 2nd half is about other communists.
>but thats not real communism the only books about communism people should read are sympathetic books of explaining that communism is misunderstood and can work if we tweek it some! and of course you need to mimic the writing style of communists in any book you read about communism otherwise people would figure out the game to easy!
t. communist simp

[Anonymous No.17140438]

>>17140190
His introduction to Marx is actually one of the best around, it's incredibly concise too on top of that

[Anonymous No.17140443]

>>17140398
Human beings of other cultures and races are capable of getting along and working together. Race is a flimsy social construct while class is rooted in material reality. Nationalism doesnt strike at the actual core of the problem, the economic system. Class consciousness is just very low in the West post Cold War and people arent aware of the full effects of capitalism.

[Anonymous No.17140444]

>>17139144
I know you're not really looking for recommendations but just an excuse to engage in political mudslinging, but
>Heaven on Earth - Joshua Muravchik
is a good history of the idea of socialism. also try actually reading Hegel. You'll be surprised how many of the new-Hegelian misreadings and criticisms of Hegelianism he anticipated and preemptively responded to.

[Anonymous No.17140456]

>>17140398
>European nationalist parties like Le Pen, AfD, Swedish Democrats, FPO etc gaining votes after the refugee crisis and terrorist attacks. "America First" anti immigration populism in America.
Okay, these movements are vastly different and have different implications. Le Pen's movement, for example, is socially conservative but supports more intervention on the economic side of things. This vastly different than what we're seeing int he US. When people talk about "socialism" in the United States - they're talking about social democratic policies let allowing the government to have more control of specific industries for social planning. Nationalizations of crucial public entities (this is vastly different than Marxism), but the key point here is I would not paint such a broad brush on these movements, and to understand them individually, especially when talking about "socialism" because it really depends on the historical circumstances

[Anonymous No.17140457]

>>17140291
>Nationalism tries to group too many people that are too different together
>THE PROLETARIANS WILL UNITE IN CLASS STRUGGLE AGAINST THE EVIL CAPITALISTS PIGS

[Anonymous No.17140468]

>>17140444
What isn't talked about much is the fact that Hegalianism was the influence for Fascism and Marxism

[Anonymous No.17140470]

>>17140443
>Class is rooted firmly in material
It isn't

[Anonymous No.17140478]

>>17140457
class interests are rooted in material realities, not mythical concepts of race.

[Anonymous No.17140479]

>>17140412
Don't be stupid. Who's more convincing? The guy who tells you everything you want to hear, regardless of the truth, or the guy who tells you things that you don't want to hear, but are completely true? Nationalism is just another way in which disadvantaged people are exploited. It doesn't mean it's valid.

[Anonymous No.17140480]

>>17140457
>THE PROLETARIANS WILL UNITE IN CLASS STRUGGLE AGAINST THE EVIL CAPITALISTS PIGS
This does actually happen though if you've paid enough to trade union politics

[Anonymous No.17140481]

>>17140199
Marx was a journalist and an editor before he had to leave Germany. There are studies about his economics and philosophical claims which try to show if his theories are empirically correct or not.
Ok about the fall of communism. Communism in EE was bad because economic planning was super inefficient. We didn't have back then nor now the technology to plan the whole economy. The communist party realized its inefficiency after that came the "capitalistic" reforms and with it a new elit which after witnessing the success of such reforms wanted to get rid of the old planned economy. During the oil crisis, these reformists slowly gained power and they managed to coup the whole block. The whole story is obviously more complex than that. What we can learn from the whole thing is that full planned economy is shit and revolution turns into authoritarian shitholes. Kautsky and Bernstein were right if we want to achieve socialism slower transition is needed.
You can read Socialism Betrayed and From Farm to Factory. If you are interested.

[Anonymous No.17140483]

>>17140443
People have been uniting around and fighting for social constructs for at least 5000 years
The notions of class consciousness have never brought about any sort of actual change

[Anonymous No.17140492]

>HUMAN BE SOCIAL ANIMALS OK????
>Wtf stop caring about social constructs

[Anonymous No.17140494]

>>17140468
Either you're referring to the young Hegelians or you haven't read Hegel. Fichte was a pioneer of totalitarian thought though.

[Anonymous No.17140498]

>>17140481
>Socialism Betrayed and From Farm to Factory.
I recommend something much better like Charles Battelheim's work "Class Struggles in the USSR" or even Mao's critiques of Soviet Communism

[Anonymous No.17140503]

>>17140478
If I can use "Blackness" to enrich muh material reality, I'm going to bro

[Anonymous No.17140504]

>>17140480
If YOU paid attention to trade union politics, you'd realize that if they got rid of the evil capitalist swein, they'd go into civil war within three weeks
Calling them unions is really doing them a favour, they're more like loose confederations of warring tribes
They've failed to actually unite in Europe against having their powers ripped from their hands for about 50 years now and the primary reason has always been that they can never actually work as a union
This is the exact same problem the socialists faced when they tried to cooperate with the guilds of the era who didn't give a flying fuck about class struggle and were more interested with guild status and petty disputes

[Anonymous No.17140505]

>>17140494
Giovanni Gentile literally said he was an hegelian. Marx was a hegelian.

[Anonymous No.17140532]

>>17140504
>If YOU paid attention to trade union politics, you'd realize that if they got rid of the evil capitalist swein,
I think you're stupid because that wasn't my implication. My implication is that is is empirically true that there are economic struggles on the shop room floor. Trade union activity shows there is clearly class conflict between two classes, and you can unite proletarians on the basis of common interests which does refute your silly argument. Your criticism is also incredibly weak because Marxists are well aware of the fact that trade union politics, in itself, is a dead end. What needs to happen is there needs to be an educated, trained proletarian organization, or party, that can guide these trade unions into radicalization. That means, getting these trade unions to be taken over by communists so that they can use them push their social revolution forward. This is a painful, yet long, process that takes time, and requires organization skills, persuasion and propaganda.

[Anonymous No.17140569]

>>17140505
>master-slave death struggle is ONE chapter in the PoS
>misinterpret it, then claim that all history can be explained and that you can divine the future itself with 'this one simple trick'
Marx' "philosophy" is a parody of Hegel and you really should stop talking out of your ass.

[Anonymous No.17140583]

>>17140569
Hegelianism is one of the worst products of philosophy and one of the most diasterous, it spawned Marx and Ginovanni, fascism and marxism.
Fuck Hegel & Hegelians, I'm glad that idiot has been largely ignored by modern thinkers

[Anonymous No.17140591]

>>17140583
Stop

[Anonymous No.17140600]

>>17140591
No

[Anonymous No.17140614]

>>17140532
>Commies: dude, we'll work long and hard to inspire class consciousness and bring about the glorious revolution
>Nothing happens for 70 years and then palace coup leads to a personal dictatorship which leads to a corrupt illiberal state claims the title though its practice has nothing to do with socialism as preached
>Fascists: dude, fuck Jews, glory to GERMANIA
>Within 20 years of the publication of mein kampf, 12 million have been exterminated to purge the undesirable races and many millions more die fighting for Hitler's pipedream
Why are you guys so apprehensive to nationalism, it's a much more efficient way to get the masses riled up for revolution

[Anonymous No.17140643]

>>17140614
Because nationalism doesn't actually accomplish anything worthwhile. It does not strike at the heart of the capitalist system. The nationalist works hand in hand with bourgeois if they feel it is in their interest to do so. The socialist does not compromise like this, their goal is to overthrow capitalism not achieve some mystical rebirth or return to an idealized past.

[Anonymous No.17140644]

>>17140614
I'm not a commie, retard. I'm just literally telling you what communists want.
>Why are you guys so apprehensive to nationalism, it's a much more efficient way to get the masses riled up for revolution
What makes you think Marxists are against nationalism? They literally have supported national liberation movements, in fact The Bolsheviks specifically supported decolonization as a way of furthering proletarian revolution by making the contradiction between the bourgeois and oppressed minorities apparent. This is why for a time national liberation movements were supported by communists in the United States, The Soviet Union, and China (which was a national liberation struggle that established a socialist order)

[Anonymous No.17140672]

>>17139167
ok now this is epic :D

[Anonymous No.17140682]

>>17140614
Nationalists in the imperial core are not nationalists for liberation purposes, they are nationalists because they want to maintain a position of privilege and hegemony.