/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17121919]

>Bro, like, if it weren't for death, LIFE wouldn't have meaning
Is this the biggest cope in the history of philosophy?

[Anonymous No.17121928]

>>17121919
Actually I find that it is the reverse; because of death, life has no meaning

[Anonymous No.17121942]

>>17121928
Equally brainlet take. Whether something eventually ends or not has no bearing on the value it has in the moment.

[Anonymous No.17121948]

>>17121919
yes it is. Thank God Im christian

[Anonymous No.17121954]

>>17121942
I agree. It's how we live that gives life meaning. It's our own responsibility to find meaning, not something that is inherently provided by any given circumstance. Eternal, temporary, the moment is the moment regardless. All that really exists is right now, and this moment has a different meaning to us all.

[Anonymous No.17122003]

>>17121928
>>17121942
>>17121948
>people somehow still don't understand the basic principle of authenticity coming from death

[Anonymous No.17122020]

>>17122003
This is true. I often consider that if I weren't concerned with my own mortality, I wouldn't make nearly as much of an effort to live with purpose. Although the present moment is all we truly have, without a finite quantity of moments, we would not appreciate them for their individual meanings.

[Anonymous No.17122051]

>>17122020
I think I live like if I was inmortal...

[Anonymous No.17122052]

>>17121942
meaning is literally constructed by isolating specific things. 'life' is literally a meaningless concept without being distinguishable from death

[Anonymous No.17122114]

>>17122051
LMAO, live like a king anon, you deserve it. But it is wise to note, no mortal ever portrayed to us lived without an equivalent working and living, Zeus, Christ, etc.

[Anonymous No.17122249]

>>17121919
Try reading him.

[Anonymous No.17122945]

>>17121919
Yes its an unbearably brainlet take and it pisses me off whenever anyone or anything brings it up. It’s the very definition of sour grapes. People find poignancy in transience, and beauty in singular, unreplicable moments only because they have no alternative. Then they post dumb shite like pic related to their social medias to pretend they don't feel the void by validating this stupid take with other brainlets' approval. The really sad thing though is that it's not just brainlet normies who do this. So much art has been dedicated to the pretence that there's something grand and ineffable in this supposed paradox of the human condition, when not so very deep down we all actually long to find beauty in permanence and truthfulness and universality instead. That's why religion was a thing. But that isn’t an option, so we content ourselves with a second rate profundity.

And what makes it even dumber is that even this predicament isn't some transcendent universal either. Because there are two possible trajectories for humanity. Either we go extinct in some catastrophe, in which case everything ceases to mean anything. Or civilisation survives indefinitely, our technology advances exponentially, and all our struggles cease to mean anything all the same. Dystopias are brainlets reassuring themselves - telling themselves they actually have it pretty good. In fact things might just keep on getting better. All our 'profound mysteries' of grief and mortality might be just meaningful to our descendants as the suffering caused by the transition from hunter-gathering to subsistence agriculture is to you.

[Anonymous No.17122965]

>>17122945

[Anonymous No.17123062]

Brainlet here. Doesn't this line of thinking ultimately result in nihilism anyway, because the eternal God/One/Brahman/etc. has no greater meaning?

[Anonymous No.17123074]

>>17122945
SMBC is generally cringe, but your post reminded me of this comic. Existentialism is just a religion that worships what we can't (yet) escape, a death cult for a slightly less primitive tribe.

[Anonymous No.17123077]

>>17122945
Holy shit filtered

[Anonymous No.17123095]

>>17123074
>that cartoon
I don't get it. Someone explain it please

[Anonymous No.17123107]

>>17121919
Somebody tell me (in few words) why this isn't true

[Anonymous No.17123114]

>>17123077
Well go on then. Instead of saying 'holy shit filtered' how about you actually say something in defence of this utter cope.

[Anonymous No.17123117]

>>17123095
"Existentialism is a cope." Now add more words and scribbly drawings.

[Anonymous No.17123132]

>>17123074
> a death cult for a slightly less primitive tribe.

This is retarded. It’s a celebration of life not a worship of death.

[Anonymous No.17123147]

>>17123074
I don't know what SMBC is but yeah I suppose thats what I'm getting at. We mock our ancestors who found profundity in meaningless make-believe shit but our humanist copes about 'living life to the fullest' will look just the same to our descendants.

[Anonymous No.17123167]

>>17123132
Yet it's only able to do that in reference to death. Unlike religion it can't offer something beyond it. So it has to grasp at straws to find meaning within impossible constraints.

[Anonymous No.17123199]

>>17123147
>I don't know what SMBC is
The webcomic the strip I posted was from. It's generally STEMbug cringe but it has a couple gems.

[Anonymous No.17123536]

>>17123095
nothing to say yourself?

[Anonymous No.17123547]

>>17123536
>>17123107
oops for you

[Anonymous No.17123553]

>>17123074
>"when they realized they were in the desert, they built a religion to worship thirstiness."
who wrote this shit? lmao

[Anonymous No.17123555]

>>17122945
>Because there are two possible trajectories for humanity. Either we go extinct in some catastrophe, in which case everything ceases to mean anything. Or civilisation survives indefinitely, our technology advances exponentially, and all our struggles cease to mean anything all the same.
Considering we're likely heading towards a "big freeze", it's looking like the former. Humanity is doomed no matter what.

[Anonymous No.17123560]

>>17123553
Its not a very clear way of putting it, but it gets the point across

[Anonymous No.17123623]

>>17121919
>meaning
brainlet buzzword

[Anonymous No.17123624]

>>17123555
I mean physics isn't certain on that to my knowledge. But even if we are headed for a big freeze, a being that can exist on such timescales is still totally beyond the concerns of all our art and philosophy, and all our attempts at meaning would be irrelevant to it just the same.

[Anonymous No.17124047]

>>17123623
huh sure. The basis of all philosophy and art is a brainlet buzzord.

[Anonymous No.17124297]

>>17122003
We understand it alright, we just think its a brainlet take

[Anonymous No.17124491]

>>17122052
That's fucking nonsense and you know it. If you could extend life indefinitely would it cease to exist? Fuck off

[Anonymous No.17124541]

>>17124491
it would cease to be 'life' in the sense that we mean it, because we invoke the concept of 'life' with reference to its inverse (death)

[Anonymous No.17124588]

>>17124541
And who would care about such a pedantic detail? It would still be life in the sense that actually matters, you know, the biological processes that sustain our bodies and consciousness. Scientists, artists, and just about everyone but you apparently would still keep on referring to 'life'.

[Anonymous No.17125438]

>>17122020
Why not? My enjoyment of things would only be greater if I didn't have to live with the knowledge that it will all be taken away.

[Anonymous No.17125834]

>>17123167
>Yet it's only able to do that in reference to death. Unlike religion it can't offer something beyond it. So it has to grasp at straws to find meaning within impossible constraints.

Ultimately religion is a way for each person to find a place on the road to the grave. Everybody orients themselves around a common thing that everyone relates to which causes humanity as a whole to act as one, with the old fading out and the young growing in. Individuals grow up and grow old, but the human condition remains and continues to exist. Religion, in various ways, ultimately serves to orient everyone towards the eternity which exists in that human condition which will continue regardless of any individual member's fortunes in life and death.

[Anonymous No.17125850]

>>17121919
Bernard Williams is the only person who made this argument semi-seriously. That being said, Williams was right.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.17125851]

>>17121919
No, it's true, and calling it 'cope' is the real cope. We're always-already caught up in coping, though, so I can't fault you for it.

[Anonymous No.17125976]

>>17122945
It saddens me to see people cling so fearfully to life as to think this way. When people experience beauty, it is because they have grasped across specificity to unite themselves to something they find transcendent. It is the sublimation of death. Without death, the experience of universality and truth is not possible, consciousness is not possible, each aspect of demarcation and specificity has its borders. The cessation that occurs at those borders is death. Those who find beauty in transience might also be scared to die, but the real brainlet take is imagining a universe of enduring specificity without death, without some kind of end. Nothing but a fearful ego gives you that feeling, it is far from ineluctable.

[Anonymous No.17125999]

>>17125851
In what sense is this self-delusion not the real cope? What on earth do you mean.

[Anonymous No.17126027]

>>17121919
It's true though, all good things are necessarily good because bad things or a lack of good things exists.

[Anonymous No.17126032]

>>17121942
What is the point of the meaning in the moment if it won't be remembered by anyone? all trace that it ever happened will be gone.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.17126040]

>>17125999
Check'd. If you skim through the archives and read the longer posts that have my names attached to them you might get a sense of what I'm saying. I would fail at explaining it in the present context.

[Anonymous No.17126047]

>>17126032
The meaning impinges upon your consciousness in a way that causes you to act differently and consequently act differently in relation to other people. In that way, the meaning is never forgotten

[Anonymous No.17126117]

>>17122945
>writing all that without understanding what you're arguing against
Please, anons, read some philosophy before writing your ill-conceived counter-arguments. You're only showing off your ignorance.

It's not so much that life would be devoid of meaning without death, but simply that life would not exist without death and death is the purpose of life. The full meaning of this idea is captured in the science of biology and the principles of evolution. You can see that this still accommodates your edgy and nihilistic views on the world, but it's not the only or the best stance to take.

[Anonymous No.17126120]

>>17125976
Yes, I cling to life fearfully, and I think it's insane that anyone doesn't.

>When people experience beauty, it is because they have grasped across specificity to unite themselves to something they find transcendent.

There is nothing our art can grasp that is 'transcendent' in any meaningful way. We can navel gaze about our joys or our sufferings for another thousand years and it won't add up to anything more than the sum of its parts. If civilisation lasts long enough, it will mean even less, because the struggles that gave it its petty subjective meaning will have ceased to be felt realities, in just the same way your ancestors' daily struggle to hunt their next meal no longer means anything to you. Beauty is a byproduct of neural cross-wiring. I like it - and you like it - because it feels good. But then we die and there is no beauty.

>Without death, the experience of universality and truth is not possible, consciousness is not possible, each aspect of demarcation and specificity has its borders.

What truth? What universality? What is there to know? And even if there was, why, logically, would it be incomprehensible without the looming cessation of all intellect. Surely you'd have a better chance of growing wise if, you know, you had a mind to think with. And why does consciousness require death? What is logically implausible about sustaining the processes of the human body and brain indefinitely?


>The cessation that occurs at those borders is death.

No. You know what death is. You can look it up on wikipedia if you don't.

[Anonymous No.17126158]

>>17126117
>It's not so much that life would be devoid of meaning without death, but simply that life would not exist without death and death is the purpose of life.

Yeah sure there'd be no life without death but why does that make that fact the 'purpose of life'. Can you meaningfully explain what the difference between those statements is?

My ire is mostly directed at art though, tbf, not philosophy. Read this dumb Margaret Atwood poem the other day and it pissed me off. Can't take the fetishisation of degeneration.

[Anonymous No.17126165]

https://www.theguardian.com/books/ng-interactive/2020/nov/07/caught-in-times-current-margaret-atwood-on-grief-poetry-and-the-past-four-years
This shite.

[Anonymous No.17126168]

>>17126040
oh come on anon do you want to take part in this thread or not?

[Anonymous No.17126176]

>>17126120
You define life and death as something circumscribed in human experience. I'm talking about the experience of transcendence, truth, and universality, not their actual instance. You are right to believe that our feelings and conceptions of these virtues are ablated by death, because when we cross that threshold we no longer have conception, we are united. For the conception of truth and universality, we must have the conception of appearance and specificity. This is only made possible with the demarcations of death, the way they affect our signs, our conception of space and time, our consciousness. You cannot experience meaning and be united with it, the fact you are awake is made possible by death's limits.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.17126199]

>>17126168
Yes, but a little birdie from the near future told me to engage in the manner I did to maximize my chance of being understood in the way I want. As I said, I would fail at explaining myself in the present context; It's up to the person to see whether they want to engage with my thought or not. I use / abuse the archives as a taste-test of my thought. What use is it for a blind man to lead a blind man? In any case, engaging with people who I know are interested in my takes (whether positively or negatively) will always prove more fruitful and enriching than engaging with somebody who from the outset will dismiss me or be apathetic toward me.

[Anonymous No.17126209]

>>17126176
Based

[Anonymous No.17126220]

>>17126176

>when we cross that threshold we no longer have conception, we are united.

I take exception to the language you use. Death isn't crossing a threshold, or a 'unification', not in any sense other than tenuous, inadequate metaphor. I don't see how what you're saying is any more profound than black science man telling me that I'm made of star dust in some pop sci youtube video.

Alright, so if I can't experience meaning and be united with it, what constitutes being united with meaning? Death? Rather defeats the point.

[Anonymous No.17126250]

>>17126199
Maybe tomorrow then, if I can be bothered. The only meaning I can infer from your claim that 'calling it cope is the real cope' is that you're saying intellectually confronting the issue and trying to disabuse yourself of illusions is just another ultimately ineffectual way of sublimating the fear, and just as much a coping mechanism as anything else. If that's what you're saying, then you're quite right, but what else is there to do.

[Anonymous No.17126251]

>>17123074
but Camus doesn't actually posit the necessity of death for a meaningful life. the arguments about the absurd would remain the same regardless of whether or not we were immortal (and suicide would still confront these immortals as a problem)

[Anonymous No.17126254]

>>17121948
God doesn't exist

[Anonymous No.17126269]

>>17126220
>Rather defeats the point
Right, you can't be actually unified with "meaning" (whatever you feel would possess this property) and be distinct enough to enjoy it. But this is a part of nature; whether you hate or fear what is is your own business. It seems that you're causing yourself a lot of consternation over desiring an alternative, though.

[Anonymous No.17126287]

>>17126117
Does using the edgy buzzword really contribute anything? The only thing it implies is that I take contrarian pleasure in being afraid of death, which I really don't. I know its just a futile, unhealthy neurosis, not an intellectual accomplishment.

[Anonymous No.17126308]

>>17126269
This seems to be an arbitrarily longwinded way of explaining what I've also said - that for human beings, in the form we exist today, there is nothing to know, and nothing to do, and nothing to gain. Are we not in agreement then?

[Anonymous No.17126334]

>>17126308
My point is that my conception of "gain" is different than yours, and it does not come from imagining death to be something other than it is. You don't have to feel life is pointless because it has no permanency.

[Anonymous No.17126338]

>>17121919
Heidegger's death is not what you think it is. You're either baiting or you're ignorant of his philosophy or you've misunderstood him or you are a fucking moron.

In any case, worthless thread.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.17126340]

>>17126250
Wow, I really didn't expect that to work. I'll post some of the relevant archived post numbers below, (some are semi-shitposts but still philosophically serious responses to questions which I've been asking myself)
>>17010815
>>16994635
>>16970582
>>16969709
>>16941222
>>16886596
That should be enough to give you a general idea of where I stand on coping with life. There's more on the archives but I don't wanna be too pretentious either

[Anonymous No.17126363]

>>17123074
>>17122945
This is so retarded. You, the comic author, and OP are confusing rational and productive argumentation, truth itself, for fanciful fabrication and you would replace it with the only thing you can understand, absolutely nothing. Might as well say you're above Mathematics, calculus is a cult of the limit, geometry is a religion to worship space invented by beings who find themselves in space. The lowly philosophers and mathematicians are just copers while you, anon, are so above it all. This is definitely not coping with your own pathetic existence in comparison to those who actually put in the effort to understand reality.

>>17126287
It's necessary to convey my contempt.

[Anonymous No.17126420]

>>17126363
I'm not above anything. I'm neurotic. I'm pointlessly frightened of the inevitable even though my life is by any metric good. I only object to people who think they've 'put in the effort to understand reality' and come away with something. I cope with my pathetic existence by arguing about this at 3am, and you cope with the notion that there's anything to be said about it.

[Anonymous No.17126432]

>>17126334
fair enough

[Anonymous No.17126447]

Please explain to me why death is bad or how the fact that it will happen actually affects you outside of your mind without resorting to your feelings

[Anonymous No.17126471]

>>17126447
Uh, how else is it supposed to effect me?

[Anonymous No.17126738]

>>17126471
It doesn’t, that is the point, death has no meaning that you didn’t give it

[Anonymous No.17126953]

>>17121919
None of you dumb niggers read any of the people you post huh?

[Anonymous No.17128337]

>>17121942
easily biggest brainlet take.

>>17121928
correct. hence why we need christ

[Anonymous No.17128457]

>>17121919
The actual biggest cope is the notion that there can be no death.
Immortality is a pipe dream.

[Anonymous No.17128526]

>>17128337
Why is it the edgy contrarian thing to believe in God now. Its so tiresome. None of you are actually christian.

[Anonymous No.17128781]

>>17126953
Go on then, what's your profound and worthy insight? None of you people actually follow up on your claims of intellectual superiority

[Anonymous No.17128857]

>>17121948
Oh, boy

[Anonymous No.17128969]

>>17128857
>oh boy

[Anonymous No.17129176]

>ree my life is gonna end so I'm just gonna be a gay hedonist
Pathetic.

[Anonymous No.17129261]

>>17129176
What are you actually doing instead? What principles do you live by?