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16638079 No.16638079 [Reply] [Original]

Would an undergraduate be able to understand this without having read Hegel or Marx?

>> No.16638085
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16638085

>>16638079
if i saw someone reading fukuyama i would strangle them to death

>> No.16638086

>>16638079
I thought it was widely held this was disproven.

>> No.16638087

Who told you that you need to read Hegel or Marx beforehand?

>> No.16638107

Yes as the ideas it borrows from those two are very straight forward. And the last man is pulled directly from Nietzsche. I also tend to agree with the premise despite some stating it was written as a gloating victory speech of western liberalism after the ussr collapsed. If there is no better system than western liberal democracy and all governments are tending to it, then the Hegelian dialectic of history is complete. But that also leaves us in a perpetual state of misery as we don’t have any higher ideals to strive towards.

>> No.16638271

>>16638079
Not really.

>>16638087
In some youtube video Fukuyama said no one "got it" expect when he was talking to Eastern Europeans.

>>16638107
It's not if it's "better" or not but the claim liberal nation states have no critical contradictions which could internally necessitate dramatic systematic change without outside pressure. Remember cold warriors claimed that everything bad (international terrorism, civil wars, etc, etc) in the world was just secretly orchestrated by Moscow. Neocon think tanks today can still put forward ideas like all the naughty ethnic/religious repression of minorities in China will end if the CPC is just overthrown.

>> No.16638275

>>16638079
Refuted by 9/11

>> No.16638300

>>16638275
How so?

>> No.16638332

>>16638079
considering fukuyama understood neither of them I'd say yes

>> No.16638350

>>16638271
>the claim liberal nation states have no critical contradictions which could internally necessitate dramatic systematic change without outside pressure
doesn't sound Hegelian at all

>> No.16639346

>>16638300
Its not and the person is a brainlet. The point of the book is not that we won't have huge historical events anymore. Its that they won't lead to fundamental shifts in the way we govern ourselves. Even a strongman dictator taking over a countries government that was previously democratic is only a temporary crisis that will eventually lead back to it being democratically ruled. It is only if all governments became authoritarian monarchies or dictatorships and stayed like that for a very long time would the idea that history has ended be wrong. And so far its correct in the sense that we do not change our mode of government anymore, only who is in charge, and non democratic governments are under heavy pressure to conform.

>> No.16639470

>>16638079
I should hope so.

>> No.16639474

>>16638079
Yes

>> No.16639526

>>16638079
No but what you need is Kojève.

>> No.16639779

>>16638087
Fukuyama's thesis is derivative of Alexandre Kojeve's Marxist and Heideggerian inflected readings of Hegel.

>> No.16639817

>>16639526
>>16639779
>Alexandre Kojeve
Where to start with this guy?

>> No.16639929

>>16639346
>Its that they won't lead to fundamental shifts in the way we govern ourselves.


This is only perceptible from a distance. Things like 9/11and the current pandemic could very well be though those types of historic events. Such great proclamations are usually wrong.

>> No.16639996

>>16639817
his introduction to hegel, then read outline of a phenomenology of right

>> No.16640273

>>16639817
Do this >>16639996 and then read Leo Strauss's On Tyranny which contains a correspondence between he and Kojeve. Fukuyama was a student of Allan Bloom, who studied under both Strauss and Kojeve.

>> No.16640280

>>16638079
Even Francis acknowledges that this book was dumb as shit, don’t waste your time.

>> No.16640296
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16640296

yes

and fukuyama disavowed himself from it

>> No.16640306

>>16639346
9/11 didn't actually change anything fundamental, it just cranked up the volume on existing tendencies. same with the pandemic, which hasn't changed any fundamental structure anywhere, it just sped up the direction we were already headed in. there is nothing to challenge capitalism. even the allegedly "far left" is stuck fighting rearguard actions for the remnants of midcentury capital

>> No.16640320

>>16640280
>>16640296
provide quote

>> No.16640337

>>16638079
these guys are all spouting memes, most actually smart people think Fukuyama's whole political order series is very good and that The End of History also raises some interesting points.

PS China et al dont really mean this books is worthless since Liberalism is obviously very dominant literally everywhere (else) relevant.

>> No.16640634

>>16638079
>Would an undergraduate be able to understand this without having read Hegel or Marx?
Yes because you will still have your neurons alive, after reading that crap they die.

>> No.16642304

>>16638079
Retroactively refuted by Anatoliy Golitsyn.

>> No.16642451

>>16640306
its too early to know

>> No.16642462

>>16640306
t. 14 year old zoomer

>> No.16642483

>>16642451
Nah its definitely far enough away to see the effects of it now. There was some more security litigation, we created the TSA, we bombed iraq and afghanistan, and we go on our lives unchanged despite having been at war for the last 17 years

>> No.16642508

>>16642483
we invaded iraq and afghanistan