/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16579694]

Literature about cultural fascism?

[Anonymous No.16579703]

Short degeneration, but magic revival from 1917 to 2017!

[Anonymous No.16579715]

The real degeneration of Art started with the Renaissance and was compounded by XIX century capitalism. Contemporary art is shit not because it's anti-representational, it's shit because it's become an asset class for the wealthy.

[Anonymous No.16579724]

>>16579694
My guy, learn to paint like an pre-20th century painter if the zeitgeist is garbage. I dislike modern poetry's love affair with free verse, but instead of whining about it, I write poems with rhyme and meter.

[Anonymous No.16579746]

>>16579694
Impressionism and what follows is a consequence of the invention of photography.
The 1817 painting doesn't make sense in a world where Nadar exists.

[Anonymous No.16579748]

>>16579715
/thread

[Anonymous No.16579766]

>>16579715
Someone's been reading Ruskin.

[Anonymous No.16579767]

>>16579694
Yes we should paint photo realistic portraits for the next X thousands of years! Jesus this is Such a Ben Shabino take

[Anonymous No.16579787]

>>16579715
Yeah, lot's of "art" and "collectables" are really just a hedge fund.

[Anonymous No.16579802]

>>16579767
No portrait is photo realistic which is the fucking point. It's the only form of photoshop that doesn't impart uncanny valley.

[Anonymous No.16579807]

>>16579694
Right wingers know nothing about art or culture.

[Anonymous No.16579813]

>>16579807
Whig history is fake and gay.

[Anonymous No.16579818]

>>16579694
Lmao this tweeter is badly misinformed. What does Euclidean Renaissance painting have to do with tradition? The far right picture is closer to the art you'd find in any primitive, "traditional," aural society.

[Anonymous No.16579823]

>>16579807
Certainly more than leftoids do

[Anonymous No.16579829]

>>16579807
saying this ironically indicates how little you've read because you would have come across 'right wing' art critics, especially before the second world war.

[Anonymous No.16579830]

>>16579694
Plebeians know nothing about art or high culture. Unless a class of arbiters who have been classically educated and descend from old money dictate the standards, the output will be nothing but grass for cattle.

[Anonymous No.16579831]

>>16579766
literally everyone who has read a book of art history knows that

[Anonymous No.16579832]

>>16579694
Political twitter gathers the most retarded people imaginable

[Anonymous No.16579839]

>>16579818
Because they can't grasp the fact that sometime in the last 200 years the camera became a thing and art has been moving away from raw realism ever since. Instead its evidence of the joos and coochies wrongdoing because they only have 4 brain cells and they're all devoted to hating people.

[Anonymous No.16579841]

>>16579694
These "Trad" aesthetics guys are such fucking retards. Especially the architecture ones

[Anonymous No.16579843]

You're all retarded.
Art has not degenerated, art is degenerate in itself.

[Anonymous No.16579851]

>>16579802
Are you saying painting can't i part uncanny Valley effect? Yes they can, and anyway is this an argument for art not progressing???

[Anonymous No.16579861]

>>16579843
Based

[Anonymous No.16579862]

>>16579818
>What does Euclidean Renaissance painting have to do with tradition? T
...it has to do with over 400 years of tradition during which most of Western Europe's masterpieces were made, what a retarded question. If you won't to dab on the trad retards don't say such stupid shit

[Anonymous No.16579868]

Lenin hated modern art too idk why leftists are pretending to like this shit

[Anonymous No.16579873]

>>16579694
The 2017 artwork feels like it should be around the 1930s. I mean I guess it could fit neoexpressionism but I thought neoexpressionism was more formless. Anyways classicism art feels boring and I prefer contemporary art to it anyways.
>>16579715
Pretty sure wealthy people always have collected art, also pretty sure they collect from every genre and not just contemporary.

[Anonymous No.16579884]

>>16579843
I've started to believe this after reading william james write about how music can degrade your character. Most "artsy" people are emotional and feminine

[Anonymous No.16579887]

>>16579807
This (art and beauty) is my biggest issue with "the left". I have always found "right-wing" art like neoclassical stuff more pleasing than "left-wing" art like abstract art. And it goes deeper than that. It has always seemed to me that leftists don't like anything beautiful. Even things like exercise and self-improvement are cast as right-wing concepts (remember that screencap of a leftist subreddit with people making excuses for why they can't work out)? And it wasn't always like this! Soviet art has a lot of the things I find pleasing, and they (as far as I can tell) valued strength, self-improvement and the like. To me, it seems like the modern right says, "OK the world is unfair, but you can improve things", while the modern left says "OK the world is unfair, so wallow in despair and reject anything good".

[Anonymous No.16579898]

>>16579694
Paintings are just single-frame movies. People eventually stopped caring about paintings once movies became better... just like how people are slowly caring less about movies as video games get better.

[Anonymous No.16579901]

>>16579862
Western modern art has nothing to do with tradition. What tradition is Bach a part of? Can you inherit Bach? Can you inherit Cervantes or Shakespeare or Rembrandt? Of course not. These were not born out of tradition but out of the very opposite. The Western "tradition" is a break from all tradition. It is the most anomalous phenomenon in the history of the world. That is why Bach and Shakespeare and Rembrandt are completely foreign and incomprehensible to every other people. Sure, some Asiatics will mimic Western culture by playing classical music and rock music and so forth--but what does it have to do with their tradition? Nothing. Neither do the masterpieces of Europe belong to any folk sensibility. There is nothing religious or moral about them. What can they have to do with tradition?

[Anonymous No.16579902]

>>16579868
The Emperor's New Clothes.

[Anonymous No.16579909]

>>16579715
Somehow all the greek/roman sculptures depict gods/kings/senators/generals an not common folk so i dont know what you are Talking about art has always been for the rich and powerful

[Anonymous No.16579914]

>>16579887
It should be rather obvious why that happens, strength, beauty, etc. create unfair hierarchies because they are unevenly distributed. Intelligence does too but they are even more mindkilled about that subject.

Straight ahead commies don't mind that because they have a specific view of society that locates oppression in one place, but kind of general left-leaning progressive people don't have that but see an endless matrix of types of oppression so they instinctively don't like things that are implicitly representative of inequality, hierarchy. They're not consistent about this of course, because everyone does like beauty and strength but you do see it pop up.

[Anonymous No.16579920]

>>16579703
agreed and i don’t follow art just the middle pic sucks ass

[Anonymous No.16579927]

I think there's real merit to Modigliani but I cant deny that there's a great drop off after the surrealists and the expressionists.

Truly modern art just seems to have taken the worst elements of those and none that truly have merit.

Are there any good art historians that talk about modern art? (60s- to today)

[Anonymous No.16579928]

>>16579901
Bach is part of the tradition of western counterpoint, which originated hundreds of years before him. Tradition doesn't mean mindless repetition, it just means some continuity of form and content.

[Anonymous No.16579931]

>>16579839
Thats not the reason though.
Camera only makes basic portraiture obsolete.

[Anonymous No.16579932]

>>16579694
What do you expect? If you live in the developing world your life is about survival. If you live in the developed world your life is filled with distractions from art and beauty but first you are forced through an education system that would never allow for you to create beautiful works of art or literature.

Sorry nobody cared about your actual question.

[Anonymous No.16579938]

Contemporary culture is inclusive, which makes some people angry

[Anonymous No.16579941]

>>16579694
This is the dumbest fucking tweet I’ve ever seen. Have any of yall traditionalists ever actually looked at traditional art? It’s not ultra-realistic, and for good reason

[Anonymous No.16579942]

>>16579694
Futurism and other trends of modernism were part of the fascist aesthetic. The most revolutionary modernist author - Ezra Pound - was a fascist.

That account has nothing to do with fascism. I know you didn't imply that it did, but I am posting just so that others won't have any misconceptions.

Fascist aesthetics is far from being neoclassical - even when it did have neoclassical influences, these were usually present as part of an eclectic amalgam.

[Anonymous No.16579948]

>>16579928
Counterpoint is hardly a tradition, as little as the novel or the Renaissance painting. There is no folk associated with counterpoint or the novel. Such cosmopolitan art lies entirely outside the domain of tradition made up of a people and its rituals.

[Anonymous No.16579966]

>>16579927
I think art after ww2 represents a pretty big shift. I mean I still like Pollock and Basquiat but they lack definite form. Even 20th century performance art and those really odd contemporary sculptures are interesting in their own way.

[Anonymous No.16579995]

>>16579948
It's very obviously a tradition, you're just spooked about that word.

[Anonymous No.16580005]

>>16579909
>art has always been for the rich and powerful
actually if we're talking about AD time, the opposite is true. the history of western art as we understand it really starts with early Christian iconography, which was made for poor illiterate people, so they could understand the gospel in an external way, icons were actually referred to as the bible of the poor. the idea of sacred icons was that the colors were the equivalent of the syllables of scripture, working together to paint a picture of scripture and church history in a simpler way. this evolved over time to stained glass, statuary, and higher quality artwork, but the central theme remained the scriptures and church history, as well as the idea that this sacred artwork was supposed to be publicly viewable so the poor illiterate people could experience the sacred in an aesthetic way.

[Anonymous No.16580015]

>>16579715
The great artists have always depended on wealthy patrons

up until mass media came long that is.

[Anonymous No.16580018]

>>16579694
iconoclasm is based. Hyper realistic fine art especially in relation to religion, is degenerate catalyst.

[Anonymous No.16580028]

>>16579694
Correction

[Anonymous No.16580033]

>>16580005
Art as an education still flowed from wealthy patrons.

The church paid for religious propaganda to be made for the same reason classical elites paid for having their likeness in marble.

[Anonymous No.16580045]

>>16580015
Wealthy patrons are called publishers and producers now.

[Anonymous No.16580047]

>>16579931
>cameras are only used for basic portraiture
Yeah, in 1890, but the writing was on the wall even then. Any modern subject you can paint you can also photograph, usually with a superior result if you're looking for realism.

[Anonymous No.16580048]

>>16580005
>Incredibly rich Pope commissions propaganda to justify his outrageous wealth.

That's not art being "made for poor illiterate pepole" anon, that's some other thing.

[Anonymous No.16580053]

>>16579884
Music is the common common mans drug, obesity rates soar each year yet no one addresses the fact that people play music every single day of their lives

[Anonymous No.16580060]

>>16579884
plato basically says the same in the republic, he rightly does not condemn it altogether but correctly sees it as medication, taken too much can be poisonous

[Anonymous No.16580070]

Go to any art school and you will find tons of faggots without talent who can paint better than any classical painter. Figuration is fucking stupid like yeah you can paint an apple that looks like an apple so fucking interesting mate

[Anonymous No.16580081]

>>16579966
Basquiat is interesting but I really find post ww2 to be lacking something that I cant quite describe. I think you're close with the lack of definite form.

I often go to modern art exhibitions but I maybe only enjoy 1 or 2 pieces. There are interesting pieces but I often find myself saying "its interesting, but is it art?". For a lack of a better word it seems artificially deep. There's no "soul". Idk I'm just rambling.

[Anonymous No.16580087]

>>16579995
How can something which is called the "novel" be considered a tradition, hmm? The "tradition of the novel" is a manifest contradiction. Likewise, how can Bach be classified in a genre or a tradition of music? His art is a work of beauty, but it has no moral or ritual value. Sure, it lies within the body of culture, and we are certainly glad to have it--but what "tradition" is there? Tradition implies that it can be passed on. But the art of Bach or Shakespeare is not a practice... it is a work and is preserved, but it is no social or religious artifact--it is not the work of a people--, neither is it a ritual to be continuously performed or a style of dance to be carried out. All one can do with a painting, with a symphony, with a novel is to passively experience it. Traditionalism thus has nothing to do with it, if only because there is nothing traditional about such works, no?

[Anonymous No.16580102]

>>16579938
Inclusive of what? Bad ideas?

[Anonymous No.16580105]

>>16580045
Publishers and producers, like the artists, are looking to make money by supplying a demand. The works of artists are not themselves funded to satisfy the publishers and producers' own demands for works of art.

The compensation comes from the mass market instead.

Except for the art that makes it to museums and private collections, of course. But I don't specially care for art museums or collecting art originals. Copies are as good as I need.

[Anonymous No.16580113]

>>16580087
>How can something which is called the "novel" be considered a tradition, hmm?
You can't be serious dude. A tradition is just an enduring form of culture, of course there is a tradition of the novel, of counterpoint, of tragedies, etc.

[Anonymous No.16580115]

>>16580033
>>16580048
cope

[Anonymous No.16580118]

>>16579724
You write nursery rhymes huh?

[Anonymous No.16580143]

>>16580105
Patrons typically only funded projects that would award them some leverage in politics or high society. Funding art for passion's sake has always been rare, something which still does happen (for example, Twin Peaks season 3).

[Anonymous No.16580154]

>>16580113
Tradition and novelty are at odds. Novelty, innovation, etc. Tradition has railed against innovation since time immemorial. Art as having something to do with beauty is a Western innovation and thus was something novel compared with what came before it, i.e., with tradition. If it then is passed down, sure, it becomes traditional, but the sort of art we are discussing, is inherently novel. It has nothing to do with tradition. Cervantes and Shakespeare can't become tradition--there is nothing traditional about their art, nor can it serve as the basis for any society. Again, what folk was born out of the novel? What rituals and traditions can come out of an aria?

[Anonymous No.16580166]

>>16580154
>there is nothing traditional about Shakespeare
no he just wrote comedies, tragedies, histories in recognizable metre, often reworking popular stories. Definitely nothing traditional.

[Anonymous No.16580179]

>>16579887
Opposite for me. Neoclassical is terribly boring and derivative. Arno Breker is the apex of neoclassicalism. Ideologically, he was aligned with Hitler's appeal to the past. His sculptures ripped off the Greeks and to some extent the Romans, but didn't do it well. The Doryphoros is 100x more interesting than "Readiness." Is Breker's sculpture competent? Yes. Is it beautiful? Who can say? Its proportions are exaggerated, its body rigid and its lines square. It displays none of the litheness of the Greek original. According to Eliot and Pound, art must be novel. If it isn't, then it isn't art. The #1 problem I see in so-called right-wing art is that it always regresses to a nostalgic past in which beauty is securely predefined and established.

[Anonymous No.16580182]

>>16579807
Honestly
Why are they so bad at Art in general?

[Anonymous No.16580185]

>>16580179
Kind of ironic to paraphrase Eliot and Pound while attacking right wingers

[Anonymous No.16580222]

>>16580182
Beyond being shit bait, I'll bite by saying thats unbelievably disingenuous.

[Anonymous No.16580223]

>>16580166
The form of transmission is completely different. Compare the folk tale, the creation myth with Don Quixote or Hamlet. Are these the same? Are they both culturally foundational? No. The former is passed on, is part of a tradition, the latter is a break, is something novel. What culture is founded on Don Quixote or on King Lear? There is nowhere to go from these works of art. Civilization and culture end with Mozart, with Tolstoy, with what you call the "tradition" of Western art. There is no people sustained by such works. Hence to persist we have to cast out Western art and return to a living tradition. That is the only thing that will continue life on this planet. A living tradition has no such thing as a Bach or a Cervantes, since these surely signal the end of a culture, as the blossom of a flower signals precedes its decline.

[Anonymous No.16580237]

>>16580223
We are still in the western tradition, people still learn music theory or oil painting based on centuries-old principles, people still write novels, etc. You have just redefined the word tradition to align with whatever pet theory you have about culture, which is annoying behavior.

[Anonymous No.16580252]

>>16580237
It's clear that you're responding to a person who thinks that the word "tradition" specifically means "folk dancing" and nothing more. People have already named a plethora of Western traditions; but this parrot just keeps squawking: "but are they tradition? "

[Anonymous No.16580259]

>>16579831
>literally
>everyone instead of anyone
opinion discarded

[Anonymous No.16580261]

>>16580222
How is stating the real disingenuous?

[Anonymous No.16580274]

>>16580237
>>16580252
The Western "tradition" is over. A flower doesn't bloom twice. Nothing surpassed Bach after Bach, nor Beethoven after Beethoven--there can be no "genres" or practices associated with them. The novel can't continue as a "tradition"... it is inherently untraditional. Such a thing is the most nonsensical idea one can imagine, if you really consider it. Beautiful art is not a way of life, it isn't a set of customs or beliefs... It is a reflection on life and a final denial of it. Was Tolstoy preaching customs and beliefs? A tradition? No, his art has the same radical message as St. Augustine--that life on this planet ought to end, and soon. Just because we continue to play around with harpsichords and oil paints doesn't mean it's not all over. I am sorry friend but there is no tradition of novel writing. The whole idea is a sham to begin with. The novel was a cultural oddity, a vehicle for a few men to reflect their surroundings and dissemble the whole social apparatus that bound them. It was a means of escape, if anything--but it hardly served as some aspect of tradition.

[Anonymous No.16580284]

>>16579694

[Anonymous No.16580285]

>>16580274
*disassemble

[Anonymous No.16580289]

>>16580284

Aesthetics peaked from the late 1700's to early 1900's and it's been rapidly downhill ever since.

[Anonymous No.16580292]

>>16580274
What do you think a tradition is? Give a definition and five examples.

[Anonymous No.16580299]

>>16579694
Photo realism and impressionism are still alive and well. The former being a post war invention. But the contemporary art that brings money and attention today is shit.

[Anonymous No.16580301]

>>16580261
You can find just as bad books written by "leftists" that are a dime a dozen instead of putting high lit next to Harry Potter and cheap political books. You could easily put a Dos Pessos or an Ezra Pound in "right leaning lit"

[Anonymous No.16580303]

>>16580274
the Western tradition may well be past its prime, but it's still ongoing, we still use many of the same forms. You seem to genuinely not know what the word tradition means, it is a lot broader than whatever particular thing you have in mind.

[Anonymous No.16580313]

>>16580274
>A flower doesn't bloom twice
>what are perennials

[Anonymous No.16580314]

>>16580274
Holy Christ you're such a pathetic whiny pussy shut the fuck up
Never post on my board ever again

[Anonymous No.16580315]

>>16580053
>>16580060
Passive sentimentalism is one of our time's most pressing issues. Art can be a corrosive force, only consume media that edifies

[Anonymous No.16580316]

>>16580179
>it's too derivative!
>forms are too exagerated so it's not like the greek and roman from which it is derivative
Choose one and only one you fucking faggot.

[Anonymous No.16580321]

>>16580284
take the candle pill

[Anonymous No.16580340]

>>16580315
>only consume media that edifies.

Which is the most edifying medium?

[Anonymous No.16580342]

>>16580292
lmao I started this discussion you have to address my points first. Consider a few French writers:

What does Baudelaire, what does Flaubert, what does Proust, have to do with any sort of tradition in French culture? All three of these artists were utterly destructive to any possibility of tradition. None of them married or had children or "passed on" anything. They completely transformed the human experience into the vision of beauty. What is the meaning of this beauty? Meaning has nothing to do with it. We read Flower's of Evil, Remembrance of Things Past--are we know ready to carry on some tradition? Hardly! What way of life is there? What customs? What beliefs?

[Anonymous No.16580349]

>>16580342
You can draw obvious links from each of those writers that extend into the art before and after them, that is what tradition is.

[Anonymous No.16580358]

>>16580301
I seriously cannot think of any high lit that's right wing.
if you do, pls recommended

[Anonymous No.16580368]

>>16580182
>Wealth of nations, Origin of species, & Beyond Good and Evil
>leftist
kek

[Anonymous No.16580377]

>>16580342
Fine.
What does Baudelaire, what does Flaubert, what does Proust, have to do with any sort of tradition in French culture?

They wrote novels (the novel is a Western phenomenon) and poetry (in the Western fashion). The rest of the world did not create these things until Westerners introduced them to the idea. It's that simple.

[Anonymous No.16580379]

>>16580358
Baudelaire, Carlyle, Pound, Céline

[Anonymous No.16580395]

>>16580340
Literature

[Anonymous No.16580414]

>>16580358
If you really look you can find ones that arnt Charlie kirk et. Al.
My point is that a real graph would show stuff like any number of political figure heads books, tv news anchors, and others like Rodham.

Reading books, or assessing books on political dichotomies is such a bromide.

[Anonymous No.16580427]

>>16580379
All literally whos except for Baudelaire who was a junkie

[Anonymous No.16580429]

Art? More like FART, heh.

[Anonymous No.16580434]

>>16580358
All catholic literature

[Anonymous No.16580457]

>>16580087
Bach literally wrote Catholic masses you fucking faggot

[Anonymous No.16580459]

that 2017 art looks more like it belongs in the mid 20th century to me. 2017 art is like a performance piece of a girl menstruating

[Anonymous No.16580467]

>>16579694
you should read literature about being a cherrypicking faggot instead

[Anonymous No.16580477]

>>16580316
It's derivative in style, that much is clear. Two hyper-realistic marble sculptures of a muscular warrior. I did not say "too derivative," as in this case derivation does not require degrees, so your point is moot. The fact remains that Breker was a mere copyist, not an artist.
>>16580185
Eliot was a right winger in politics, sure. But not in his aesthetics, which is the relevant category here. He didn't advocate for the repression or ugliness of innovations, and obviously innovated widely.

[Anonymous No.16580483]

Non artists love to lecture about what good art is or isn't. Also plebs assume hyperrealism = good, anything else bad.
Literally why bother?

[Anonymous No.16580504]

>>16580483
Artists are limp wristed faggots that need to be directed by the people who bankroll their gay little hobby

[Anonymous No.16580508]

>>16580358
the concept of high art is right wing in itself.

[Anonymous No.16580509]

>>16580477
There is nothing right wing about 'repression or ugliness of innovation'. This meme is largely Hitler's fault for his degenerate art thing, but that's just tyranny, the Soviets did something rather similar and they're on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

[Anonymous No.16580533]

>>16580483
Judging by the fatal amounts of self-satisfaction radiating from the post I'm assuming that you're a master sculptor and draftsman. Or just a middle class kid with a BA in Fine Art from a correspondence college. One of those.

[Anonymous No.16580534]

>>16580504
it's so easy to spot right wingers that it isn't even funny

[Anonymous No.16580537]

>>16580504
Stay in your line pleb cattle faggot

[Anonymous No.16580545]

>>16579694
Dude stop posting these poorly cropped screencaps to promote your shitty account, no one cares.

[Anonymous No.16580551]

>>16580115
Shut the fuck up holy shit

[Anonymous No.16580552]

>>16580533
I actually just draw in the evenings as a hobby and stress relief. Laughing at retards who never dared to do anything remotely close to art since age 5 who think they're an authority on art is just as enjoyable, though. Assume you're one of those, given your reaction lmao

[Anonymous No.16580553]

>>16579694
>1817
Boring. Its purpose is to let us know how people looked because we could just take pictures with a camera. This art style has only become more irrelevant now that everyone has a phone with a camera that shows the image within a second.
>1917
An interesting art style I'd love to see as part of an animation short.
>2017
Even better than the last two. Could be used for a very aesthetic, trippy artsy film.

Works from the surrealist art movement are best btw.

[Anonymous No.16580555]

>>16580509
You're once again confusing political and aesthetic conservatism. It's true that repressing the avant garde has been used by tyrannies of wildly diverse political agendas. However, this act of repression is inherently conservative. Conservatism itself is simply a commitment to tradition and established institutions and beliefs. It is an attempt to "conserve" the past. Aesthetic conservatism wishes to abolish whatever art is new and uncategorizable for the sake of an appeal to traditional forms of beauty. Regimes usually do this because the traditional is the lowest common denominator--the easiest way to win the people. Here, I'll end on a quote by some guy whose name escapes me.

"According to Proust, one proof that we are reading a major new writer is that his writing immediately strikes us as ugly. Only minor writers write beautifully, since they simply reflect back to us our preconceived notion of what beauty is; we have no problem understanding what they are up to, since we have seen it many times before. When a writer is truly original, his failure to be conventionally beautiful makes us see him, initially, as shapeless, awkward, or perverse. Only once we have learned how to read him do we realize that this ugliness is really a new, totally unexpected kind of beauty and that what seemed wrong in his writing is exactly what makes him great."

[Anonymous No.16580558]

>>16580553
Before we could just take*

[Anonymous No.16580563]

>>16579715
Bolano never said that.

[Anonymous No.16580564]

>>16580537
Yeah, I'm a pleb and you're an ART SCHOOL ELITE lmao

[Anonymous No.16580565]

>>16580182

Basic economics is one of the most useful books ever written.

Rent control is the public policy litmus test on whether politicians understand freshman level economics or not.

[Anonymous No.16580568]

>>16580552
>I actually just draw in the evenings as a hobby and stress relief.

Me too, old friend. I mostly do it on nights when I can't sleep.

[Anonymous No.16580574]

>>16580553
A disturbing amount of film references. What are you 18 and just getting into film. Its embarrassing regardless.

[Anonymous No.16580580]

>>16579715
+1 dawg

[Anonymous No.16580590]

>>16580555
Conservativism is not the same thing as right-wing. Right-wing art critics like Eliot and Pound maintained a concept of high art that uses a sophisticated language, they wanted to experiment exactly because they felt that there had been a degradation in the normal forms and something new was needed. They were well aware that there was lots of bullshit being produced.

The quotation there is a bit absurd since Proust wrote in a conventionally beautiful manner, it was the overall structure that was innovative. Proust was far more conservative than his contemporary Joyce for example who even today often strikes people as 'ugly' at times.

[Anonymous No.16580630]

>>16579843
I disagree but I'm willing to engage with this idea. Art in its many forms is one of my greatest passions, but I refuse to be just an artist. To do so seems self indulgent. I would rather the contribution of real value (business creation and then philanthropy) be the main goal of my life. Yet, I can still enjoy art as an enlightened pass time. As a form of leisure the creation of art is considerably more noble than letting your brain rot infront of the TV or computer, like most people spend their leisure time these days (and which I may infact be guilty of at this moment).

[Anonymous No.16580640]

>>16580259
>pedantry
faggotry confirmed

[Anonymous No.16580648]

>>16580358
Eliot, Plato, Borges

[Anonymous No.16580654]

>>16580630
damn man you're cringe

[Anonymous No.16580657]

>>16580630
Question, why is business "real" and art not? Surely you must have a better answer than "money."

[Anonymous No.16580672]

>>16579884
i've seen this happen to my music playing friend. and it's the same with all the other music fags he goes to school with.
I would ban recorded music, and restrict the volume and location of live music.

[Anonymous No.16580680]

>>16579938
This isn't inclusive; this is designed to shore up distinctions between the woke-bourgeois in-group and the out-group.

[Anonymous No.16580683]

>>16580053
>Not exploiting the neurological responses to music to boost performance in work, athletics, and creation
Lmao. Enjoy getting left behind by the productive world while you LARP

[Anonymous No.16580693]

>>16580672
also right wingers: why does everyone think I'm weird?

[Anonymous No.16580694]

>>16580630
I am also a sophisticated intellectual

[Anonymous No.16580704]

>>16580358
And what “high lit” is left wing?

[Anonymous No.16580710]

>>16580261
Its the equivalent of putting white fragility and obama’s book as leftist lit

[Anonymous No.16580716]

>>16579901
You do not understand art. You're focusing far too much on superficialities.

[Anonymous No.16580726]

>>16579694
Cultural fascism is whittling art down to an entirely technical practice of replicating life 1:1 minus life itself. Surely if anything that act of mere, dead impression, without synthesis, is more of an insult to nature than the ugliest stylised cave-painting-esque postmodernist scrawl?

[Anonymous No.16580738]

>>16580289
I can't tell if this is satire or not

[Anonymous No.16580765]

>>16580726
I'd rather have a "boring" neoclassical sculpture in my downtown area than the niggermurals and abstract garbage I have to look at

[Anonymous No.16580771]

>>16579694
There cannot be beauty with god. Nothing fascist about it

[Anonymous No.16580775]

>>16580771
Without*

[Anonymous No.16580778]

>>16580657
You're right in the sense that money isn't the only thing that makes business important compared to the arts, since the arts can make lots of money too. What makes business worth while to me is the goal of solving problems. The arts can whine about pollution, for example, all day, but ultimately they're stuck waiting for an entrepreneur or organization with the means to actually solve the problem. I'd rather act than inspire others to act.

[Anonymous No.16580798]

>it's another anti-intellectual thread

[Anonymous No.16580802]

>>16580289
These critiques of modern architecture are very valid, but imagine thinking you have to be bound by historic styles to do better. Lol.

[Anonymous No.16580811]

>>16580798
Based, eat shit

[Anonymous No.16580812]

>>16580765
Why?

[Anonymous No.16580815]

>>16580771
Freudian slip.

[Anonymous No.16580827]

>>16580771
>There cannot be beauty with god. Nothing fascist about it
Based and Satan pilled

[Anonymous No.16580834]

>>16579715
Based

[Anonymous No.16580848]

>>16580812
Seeing something that glorifies the beauty of the human body in a dignified way is enjoyable, and the murals of overweight blacks and spray painted metal arches is only a reminder that our mayor is a white woman who'll do anything to make us appear more progressive

[Anonymous No.16580849]

>>16579715
Art hasn't degenerated. It moved on to collective movements, i.e. companies. To say that no art has been produced in the last 100 years is to be either completely ignorant of the modern high culture of this period, or completely hostile to it (which is why anarchists usually repeat the talking points you just gave).

[Anonymous No.16580906]

>>16580848
You see humans literally every time you go out. Why do you want to see it in a paintaing or statue as well? It's not often you see someone else's imagination manifested physically.

[Anonymous No.16580930]

Realism as an aesthetic ideal is tied to the assumption that there is an objective reality. The idea of a single objective reality was disproven at the start of the 20th century by Einstein, "On the Electromagnetics of Moving Bodies" (1905) (time is relative to the speed of the observer), kindling the subjective reality movement among philosophers. This was picked up by artists, who have since prioritized expressing subjective experiences.

This is what art is mostly associated with today. Go find someone's photorealistic portrait of a celebrity. Is it impressive? Yes. But is it interesting or entertaining? No. Not unless it pushes some technical boundary by being really big or being made from salt or something. It offers nothing new perspective wise so it hardly feels like art.

[Anonymous No.16580937]

.>>16580906
I dont have a dying thirst for novelty because I'm not a neurotic. Are you suggesting that beauty becomes tiring to look at?

[Anonymous No.16580943]

>>16580937
It's not novelty, it's a fundamental itch of knowing what everyone else sees out of reality. You want art to be a slightly worse version of photography and absolutely nothing else, and see nothing wrong with it?

[Anonymous No.16580950]

>>16579694
From a Capitalist perspective

[Anonymous No.16580953]

>>16580848
So make a nice figure sculpture anon. I'm sure someone will put it somewhere.

You're construing the placement of art in public spaces to mean the denial of certain art forms, but surely your city is just representing what local artists are making. If you don't like it make something better.

[Anonymous No.16580990]

>>16580943
I think what you're saying is noble but the practical result of that is progressive tripe
>>16580953
It is the denial of certain art though, catholic statues have been removed

[Anonymous No.16581023]

>>16580284
Despite the cherry picking here this image represents a valid point in that the right collumn represents deliberate aesthetic choices from the modern materialist movement. Yet, you're exposing your ignorance by not showing what comes after. Since the late 20th there has been a consistent progression towards ornamentality in material culture. But I guess that's not convenient if you just want to be a vapid traditionalist and complain about "muh modernity".

[Anonymous No.16581031]

>>16580990
>Catholic statues have been removed
Where and why?

[Anonymous No.16581044]

>>16580182
What would be worthwhile right-wing literature?
>Patriotism
>Introduction to Metaphysics

Neither of these have any relation to contemporary politics in the United States though, which is how 99% of people define "left" and "right"

[Anonymous No.16581050]

>>16580321
Basado

[Anonymous No.16581060]

>>16581031
Junipero serra and our town's catholic heritage are being pushed to the wayside

[Anonymous No.16581071]

>>16581060
Well that's genuinely sad. Ideally they would put new art in new places and keep old art in old ones. Consider getting involved in local preservation organisations.

Also I deleted my comment because I realized it was not productive to the conversation.

[Anonymous No.16581078]

>>16579724
The Measure is English Heroic Verse without Rime, as that of Homer in Greek, and Virgil in Latin; Rhime being no necessary Adjunct or true Ornament of Poem or good Verse, in longer Works especially, but the Invention of a barbarous Age, to set off wretched matter and lame Meeter; grac't indeed since by the use of some famous modern Poets, carried away by Custom, but much to thir own vexation, hindrance, and constraint to express many things otherwise, and for the most part worse then else they would have exprest them. Not without cause therefore some both Italian, and Spanish Poets of prime note have rejected Rhime both in longer and shorter Works, as have also long since our best English Tragedies, as a thing of itself, to all judicious ears, triveal, and of no true musical delight; which consists onely in apt Numbers, fit quantity of Syllables, and the sense variously drawn out from one Verse into another, not in the jingling sound of like endings, a fault avoyded by the learned Ancients both in Poetry and all good Oratory. This neglect then of Rhime so little is to be taken for a defect, though it may seem so perhaps to vulgar Readers, that it rather is to be esteem'd an example set, the first in English, of ancient liberty recover'd to heroic Poem from the troublesom and modern bondage of Rimeing.

[Anonymous No.16581080]

>>16580284
the dodge neon was the greatest fwd of its time

[Anonymous No.16581113]

>>16580284
Why are you comparing mega-rich aristocrat stuff with mass-manufactured consumer goods? You think the average 18th century peasant lived in a rococo palace?

[Anonymous No.16581124]

>>16581071
>>16581060
Also in this vaine, as someone who works in historic preservation I can say, making preservation into a culture war of old against new will only work against you. People will paint you as a nazi and you'll lose favor in the public. You have to be able to accept that there's a place for new kinds of art (recently developed locations ideally) if you want people to accept that there's room for old kinds of art (historic locations). Offering this insight for the chance that you actually care about engaging with your local issues and historic art instead of just making reactionary arguments against anything new.

[Anonymous No.16581129]

>>16580182
Just change Trump's son's book for Guenon to balance the sides.

[Anonymous No.16581226]

Some modern stuff kind of reminds me of medieval art style wise

[Anonymous No.16581230]

>>16580005
This is really interesting! So let me ask you: With such a rich history of Christian art, why is modern Christian materialism so tacky?

[Anonymous No.16581246]

>>16581226
This isn't a surprise. Perspective in figure drawing was a western reneisance invention. Modernists deemed it unnecissary and looked towards indigenous/tribal art as a source of inspiration instead.

[Anonymous No.16581253]

What /pol/tards can't seem to fucking recognize is the fact that all art is necessarily political. Their tiny brains can't comprehend that the highest calling art can therefore have is to serve the interests of political Progress.

[Anonymous No.16581285]

>>16580313
Lmao well done

[Anonymous No.16581291]

>>16580358
Liking anything written by a dead white guy is right wing in the modern world.

[Anonymous No.16581295]

>>16581230
i would make a guess that its because protestantism has largely won over the west, and they view the bible not as a story that was passed down through generations and generations, but as an instruction book that sort of fell from heaven, so they don't have the larger narrative to portray. they completely lack the concept of sacred tradition, so there is nothing to pass down, nothing to instruct in a deeper way, all they have to do is point people to a few specific verses which say that believing in Jesus = going to heaven. so instead of a stainglass window with the stations of the cross on it, you get a jpeg with 3 bible quotes and a pic of christchan telling you that if you accept Jesus as you lord and saviour, you are automatically saved.

[Anonymous No.16581319]

>>16581295
Isn't protestantism mostly an anglo thing nowadays? Even in Germany protestants and catholics are about equal in number.

[Anonymous No.16581334]

>>16581295
>Sacred Tradition.

No such thing. Catholicism drastically changes it's mind every century or so. Views that are considered normal today would earn somebody an excommunication 100 years ago or an execution 300 years ago. That has always been the case. Half of the Church Fathers held views that would be utterly unacceptable to any Catholic living before or after them.

[Anonymous No.16581336]

>>16581295
Huh. Interesting answer. Almost like protestants take the existence of Christianity for granted.

[Anonymous No.16581347]

>>16581319
the protestant spirit is a subset of another spirit which has other subsets that have all infected the world. its all symptoms of the same disease is what i'm saying. protestantism was just the first major shift

[Anonymous No.16581354]

>>16581347
Do you think it was a random cultural mutation or did it have to do with the evolving material conditions in Europe, eg. technological innovations?

[Anonymous No.16581362]

>>16581319
american evangelicalism is taking on a life of its own in korea, the philippines, and parts of latin america even as it's dying in the US

[Anonymous No.16581372]

>>16581334
>Views that are considered normal today would earn somebody an excommunication 100 years ago or an execution 300 years ago.
sort of, this is because the physical buildings have been taken over by evil men who aren't truly catholic, but trick people into believing they are so they can lead them to hell. i really can't get into it right now, its too late for me to start schizo posting, i have a brutal day of hard labor tomorrow.
>>16581354
i think decay is natural for anything when there are no men dedicated to its preservation. that goes for high culture and for your car. if you don't take care of it, it will break down.

[Anonymous No.16581380]

>>16580377
>the novel is a Western phenomenon
>The rest of the world did not create these things until Westerners introduced them to the idea.
the Epic of Gilgamesh is not Western. The Tale of Genji is not Western.
the Romance of the Three Kingdoms has no Western influence.
Oral literature (mainly poetry and epics sung by Griots) had no Western influence.
Ancient Egyptian literature (e.g. The Eloquent Peasant) had no Western influence. If anything, it likely inspired the West.

[Anonymous No.16581397]

>>16581354
Not him but in my opinion it's something probably very much related to the ethnology at play. Protestantism is something to do with Germanness and their instincts to individualize, seek equality, and general ideological fussiness.

[Anonymous No.16581399]

>>16581372
Funny how one of these replies is so insightful and the other so utterly retarded

[Anonymous No.16581403]

>>16579694
>Literature about cultural fascism?
Meanwhile fascist art...

[Anonymous No.16581404]

>>16581372
>when there are no men dedicated to its preservation.
Yes but why did this occur

[Anonymous No.16581412]

Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro

[Anonymous No.16581413]

>>16579942
This. Fascism is actually anti conservative in alot of ways. Its basically authoritarian progressivism.

[Anonymous No.16581423]

Wtf does fascism even mean anymore. The colliqual use of this word has bogged it down to nothing, just basically seems to mean anything vaguely authotarian I guess?

[Anonymous No.16581424]

>>16580849
Contemporary art begun 40-30 years ago. 100 years ago we had modern art.

[Anonymous No.16581434]

>>16581423
>Wtf does fascism even mean anymore.
Things not acceptable by the status quo.

[Anonymous No.16581439]

>>16579942
This
>>16581413
Eh it's not even necessarily authoritarian. Fascism doesn't believe in individuals because individuals are not found in nature, they only exist as a biproduct of the state. It's not about "progressing" but about movement.

[Anonymous No.16581446]

>>16581399
or maybe you shouldn't write off what i'm saying.
>>16581404
idk, because we have free will and men chose to be lazy. i really think its probably just that simple. i don't think there was really some minor philosophical change that snowballed into what we have now. its not a festering wound, its an asshole that has been shitting for 500 years without wiping.

[Anonymous No.16581458]

>>16581439
Damn way to muddy the waters. Fascism imo ALL THE BIG BRAIN BULLSHIT ASIDE is radical revolutionary national socialism. There's more to it than that bc the word fascism has a cultural connotation that national socialism lacks, itself only containing political and economic dimensions, but that's the general basic program don't you think?

[Anonymous No.16581462]

>>16579843
Absolutely based. Art has rotted our brains

[Anonymous No.16581464]

>>16581446
>because we have free will and men chose to be lazy
nigga pls. Gib grand historical narratives

[Anonymous No.16581475]

>>16581423
>>16581434
Same shit it always meant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Manifesto
Just because some people are arguing for the destruction of the meaning of words, it doesn't mean you have to accept it or play by their terms.

If that link is to dense for you, the key points are
>Government control of for-profit industry
>Populist control of wealth
>Expansion of government owned / operated infrastructure
>Generally isolationist, but now simply vigourously nationalistic foreign policy
>Cultural populism, consistent ethnicity, religion, whatever is need for a _defined_ national identity.

The absolute MOST important part of fascism is that it is populist. It is a tool to enforce the popular will.

[Anonymous No.16581524]

>>16580358
Literally ALL men are right wing, so ALL art is right wing.

[Anonymous No.16581539]

>>16581475
I'd say the most important aspect of fascism is its organic conception of the state in which the leader can act like the brain/head of the organism, thereby channeling the popular will. It emphasizes this hierarchical nature, and the freedom for the leader to deal with situations pragmatically as they come, rather than having strictures on policy and law.

[Anonymous No.16581560]

>>16581539
Yes, I'd agree with this as well. Though, I think the easiest litmus test for whether or not something can be said to be "fascist" is what groups it champions. For instance, calling something fascist because you believed that it is a tool of an upper class, whether it be a financial, cultural, or religious ruling minority is nonsense. Generally, this is the only way I see fascism used today, just "authoritarianism I don't like"

[Anonymous No.16581590]

>>16579694
Early 19th century portraiture is soulless

Hyperrealist art exists. It's an admirable expression of technical mastery, but artistically redundant. Photography exists too

[Anonymous No.16581599]

>>16579884
>>16580060
I have aspergers and I rarely listen to music as most of it is very unpleasant to me. Does this mean avoiding music has been a good thing?

[Anonymous No.16581627]

>>16580289
Synthetic materials are bad? What a low iq take.

[Anonymous No.16581628]

>>16579694
I like all 3 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Anonymous No.16581636]

>>16579715
>art is bad because [group] enjoy it

[Anonymous No.16581638]

>>16581627
I do think that modern materials are in some ways inferior because they objectively don't last as long as hard stone does. Concrete and rebar is just massively inferior to stone in durability. Every skyscraper in the world will be long gone while the Giza pyramids are still standing.

[Anonymous No.16581664]

>>16580477
>as in this case derivation does not require degrees
>source: dude trust me

[Anonymous No.16581770]

>>16579694
I believe I have seen paintings from the XX century that, from my point of view, are beautiful.

[Anonymous No.16581794]

>>16579887
>right wing art
>left wing art
Unless the piece is purely political, THERE IS NO SUCH FUCKING THING AS LEFT WING OR RIGHT WING ART> CAN YOU STUPID FUCKING SEPPO CUNTS STOP INSERTING YOUR CANCEROUS ZOMBIE IDPOL BULLSHIT INTO EVERYTHING
ITS A FUCKING JOKE
ITS BEYOND A FUCKING JOKE
ITS THE TRUE FUCKING DEATH AND DEGENERATION OF ART
KILL ALL POLITICAL SHITS
yuo fucking ass

[Anonymous No.16581811]

>>16581403
>Charge of the Lancers
>1915
>Nude Descending a Staircase
>1912
I smell the anxiety of influence

[Anonymous No.16581815]

>>16579942
The most revolutionary modernist author by far was Joyce. Pound was simply a discerning curator

[Anonymous No.16581824]

>>16579694
Fascist here.

I have absolutely no idea what do you mean by "cultural fascism", it's like saying "cultural comunism". The object is still fascism, not culture (that would be "fascist culture").


Anyway, read these. The first one is boldly direct:

> "Fascism: 100 questions asked and answered" by Oswald Mosley

>"The Doctrine of Fascism" by Benito Mussolini

It's really tiresome how people unironically study fascism from what some fat women with coloured hair say instead of reading the primary sources.

[Anonymous No.16581851]

>>16581824
Two questions, how did you become a fascist? And how does your boyfriend feel about it?

[Anonymous No.16581857]

>>16580358
>anime pic
>drooling braindead opinion
Every single time

[Anonymous No.16581860]

>>16581851

By the questions I can see how lost you are.

Read the fucking books instead of your daily Vice article about Fascism and 10 amazing recipes using african semen to deconstruct biggotry

[Anonymous No.16582011]

>>16580182
>Shitting on Siege
Ask me how I know you haven't read it.

[Anonymous No.16582036]

>>16579868
internet discourse is pure resentiment ans contrarianism by unfuckable mentally ill losers

[Anonymous No.16582189]

>>16579694
Friendly reminder to all that we are all sinners that can't stop sinning and are on our way to the everlasting hellfire unless we trust in Christ alone (Faith Alone) for salvation.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for all your life's sins (your future sins too), and rose again.

Ask Jesus to save you if you believe he died for you and rose again.

In John 5:24, Jesus said:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Once saved, always saved, because you can't lose everlasting life. It goes on forever once you recieve it by faith.

[Anonymous No.16582246]

>>16581860
I'm just kidding, pal, I have no interest in the answer to either question. Or fascism for that matter.

[Anonymous No.16582256]

>>16582189
>Once saved, always saved, because you can't lose everlasting life. It goes on forever once you recieve it by faith.
Does that mean I can murder people after converting without any problems

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.16582295]

>>16580289
>chaos and equality
What horse shit. The society we live in imposes order causing chaos, through unjustifiable hierarchies pays lip service to their fake equality

[Anonymous No.16582301]

>>16579887
>>16579807

art is not what you think. what humanists call art is nothing more than orders form the ruling class to ''artists''.

With humanism rising with the bourgeois, the merchant class wanted to show off by having paintings too. So the bourgeois did like everybody before, they put an order for a painting to the artists and they produce it.

But the bourgeois are just hedonists, they only care about sex.This is why sex is more an depicted in the humanist paintings and why women love it.

Now for the technique is from geometry. The greeks at all the geometry needed, but was lost.

With the revival by the bourgeois of the greek academia, in order to larp as greeks and muh enlightenment, they discovered geometry again and they applied it to paintings.

The hard getting good pleases very much the hedonists, and so the bourgeois continued to request paintins like those.

[Anonymous No.16582310]

>>16582301
>before modernism, nobody cared about sex
My goodness, righttards are such complete and total turdbrains, holy fuck.

[Anonymous No.16582326]

>>16581439
a state is always authoritarian, wtf

[Anonymous No.16582383]

>>16580379
thx. I'll look into them.
>>16580508
>>16580704
>>16581291
>>16581524
>>16581857
All these non-replies just prove my point lol

[Anonymous No.16582393]

I'm not reading through the whole fucking thread but if nobody pointed it out already it's the fucking kikes that are responsible for this

[Anonymous No.16582402]

>>16581078
based milton

[Anonymous No.16582406]

>>16580274

[Anonymous No.16582414]

dimwit thread

[Anonymous No.16582471]

I'm living in suburbia and there is so little beauty here, it's depressing.

>>16581023
>Since the late 20th there has been a consistent progression towards ornamentality in material culture.
I'm not so sure of it, in software for example 'flat design' has become more and more the norm over the last twenty years.

[Anonymous No.16582483]

>>16582383
what you call "right wing" doesn't exist

[Anonymous No.16582494]

>>16579694
>cultural fascism
Check out Marinetti. I have a feeling that cultural fascism isn't what you seek though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_3O0zOiX-w

[Anonymous No.16582538]

>>16580427
Céline and Pound are well known to anyone seriously interested in literature. Céline would probably be equally if not more appealing to the modern left than to the modern right.
Don't let your meme politics rob you of a good read.

[Anonymous No.16582558]

>>16580565
the arrogance of the retard never ceases to amaze

[Anonymous No.16582564]

>>16582558
You came down to this souther town last summer...

[Anonymous No.16582583]

>>16579928
Bach is the greatest breaking point in the history of music.
Western thought is built upon the breaktrough of great minds, a separation from tradition. The west is built upon individuality, innovation and free thought.
Arguably the greatest novel ever written invalidated the traditional literary genre at the time, which was chivalric novels.
The asians can make the same heron painting for 2000 years, that doesn't mean it didn't get old at the third try. Their culture is stale, while the western one is always developing and alive.
That's why it is incredibly stupid when some petersonfag says shit like Adorno is trying to destroy western culture, when he actually epitomises it.