/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16566442]

As a Christian I have become very disillusioned with the world and think I agree with what Marxism and Marxists say, however I don't like how a lot of Marxism is dismissive of Christianity or religion in general. How can you dismiss something that is such a large part of a lot of people's ways of experiencing the world when you claim you are doing historical material analysis? So I have been wondering if there were any Marxist thinkers that find a reconciliation with Christianity or just religion in general.

[Anonymous No.16566452]

>>16566442
Marxism is secular, any communist can be whatever religion or none at all, so long as they ascribe to Dialectical Materialism. Dialectical Materialism can only prove the natural, material world exists, and that is the only realm in which it deals, it is a science for dealings in the physical, material world. Therefore whether you believe there is more or not does not matter, it does not weaken your theoretical basis, the understanding of class society and the dialectical model of class struggle applies nonetheless. Many communists don’t seem to understand this and scare away what could be great comrades, because of their personal beliefs. The bourgeoisie smile when they see the working class fighting among themselves due to personal affairs, like religion.

[Anonymous No.16566456]

>>16566442
I don't know if he was a Marxist but Trotsky was a devout Christian. Also, why limit yourself to Marxism? There are a number of anti-capitalist doctrines that aren't Marxism and aren't hostile to religion.

[Anonymous No.16566459]

>>16566442
Take the Cornell West pill.
>West has described himself as a "non-Marxist socialist" (partly because he does not view Marxism and Christianity as reconcilable)[76] and serves as honorary chair of the Democratic Socialists of America, which he has described as "the first multiracial, socialist organization close enough to my politics that I could join."
his most well known books, Race Matters and Democracy Matters don't explore that specific issue in depth though, American political philosophy deals more in terms of practical government policy than abstract metaphysics

[Anonymous No.16566462]

christcucks are lost

[Anonymous No.16566469]

>>16566452
>it is a science for dealings in the physical, material world.
>a science
Lol

[Anonymous No.16566472]

>>16566442
Don't know about Marxist thinkers, but the evolutionary biologists nowadays have figured out very plausible ways in which religious belief has conferred adaptive advantage.
If you want to have fun while reading about this, try Blindopraxia.
Or just go straight to nonfiction.

[Anonymous No.16566481]

>So I have been wondering if there were any Marxist thinkers that find a reconciliation with Christianity or just religion in general.
Check out Ernst Bloch of the Frankfurt School. He is exactly what you are looking for. Very interesting and unique Marxist thinker.
https://youtu.be/aclGXZ-Q77Y

[Anonymous No.16566485]

>>16566472
That isn't a reconciliation though. If anything, it's a modern rationalization meant to render spiritual sincerity impotent.

[Anonymous No.16566489]

>>16566442
At some point I think the marxists and catholics must link arms to make progress. It will not be comfortable but it will be necessary.

[Anonymous No.16566492]

christian socialism is a thing

[Anonymous No.16566518]

>>16566462
Not all those who are lost wander

[Anonymous No.16566534]

>>16566485
Interesting that you view it that way.
There's another perspective that you might like more, coming from Joscha Bach, but I don't think he's written anything about it besides tweets.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.16566540]

>>16566492
This.

If you can't figure it out or haven't the courage to think it through, just ignore the logic of materialism. Trans-genderism does it, so can you.

[Anonymous No.16566543]

>“It is very difficult nowadays to invoke the rational criteria elaborated in earlier centuries to speak of the possibility of a ‘just war,’”
>“Aside from the differing ways that various countries responded to the crisis, their inability to work together became quite evident,” Francis wrote. “Anyone who thinks that the only lesson to be learned was the need to improve what we were already doing, or to refine existing systems and regulations, is denying reality.”
>“The fragility of world systems in the face of the pandemic has demonstrated that not everything can be resolved by market freedom,” he wrote. “It is imperative to have a proactive economic policy directed at ‘promoting an economy that favours productive diversity and business creativity’ and makes it possible for jobs to be created, and not cut.”
>“Neo-liberalism simply reproduces itself by resorting to magic theories of ‘spillover’ or ‘trickle’ — without using the name — as the only solution to societal problems,” he wrote. “There is little appreciation of the fact that the alleged ‘spillover’ does not resolve the inequality that gives rise to new forms of violence threatening the fabric of society.”
https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-pope-francis-archive-capitalism-bcde0053314e65612add0709fada5519

[Anonymous No.16566571]

>>16566534
Well, my comment wasn't really complete. I have a more nuanced view than that (I'd like to think). I believe in "religion" (oversimplification) and I believe in evolutionary forces. If evolution is a function of God's immanence then I suppose it wouldn't be too out there to say that an evolutionary predilection for spiritual thought is just another expression of said immanence. Because if God created creatures capable of worship and these creatures operate based on biological processes then why wouldn't such a preference for spirituality exist and why wouldn't it be biologically informed? The reason I said what I said is because I don't believe that's the motivation behind the theories posed by evolutionary biologists regarding religion. Maybe I'm just too cynical.

[Anonymous No.16566578]

>>16566543
It's worrying that the pope is more worried about "violence" (such a loaded term nowadays) rather than the sever deficit of agape.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.16566588]

>>16566578
You think violence can induce the proper sort of love for your god?

Quite worrying.

[࿇ C Œ M G E N V S ࿇ !KNDYYIIins No.16566589]

>>16566442
>As a Christian...
>… I agree with what Marxism and Marxists say...


...

[Snekman No.16566604]

>>16566589
As a Christian, I think Satan has some good ideas, y’know?

[Anonymous No.16566608]

>>16566442
I don't think a communist state would have a problem with a religion but rather organized religion, the church as institution can be used to exploit people, so I think something like in early christianity were worship was more of communal gathering in each other houses makes more sense, organized religion can easily be used to destabilize a government, just look at Syria and ISIS, that's why it's a problem.

[Anonymous No.16566615]

>>16566442
Get into liberation theology

[Anonymous No.16566621]

>>16566588
What I'm saying is that a neurotic aversion to violence can cause more damage to the spiritual health of a species than can be readily understood or recognized by the pope (or even the greatest minds paying attention to such a thing). And like I said, violence has become a loaded term. I'd argue things like gun violence are way less destructive than say, the pornography industry (this is just an example). It's simply easier to say "murder bad" than it is to look at the entire picture and actually see where the rot is coming from.

[Anonymous No.16566630]

>>16566571
Well the reconciliation is something I think you will have to do on your own. The biologists are concerned about biology.
Also, I should mention that what you may be noticing is that the Soviet Union basically replaced and co-opted its Christian (Orthodox) imagery with "revolutionary" imagery. So instead of icons of saints they had icons of Lenin, Stalin, etc.
A quick and dirty hack, but effective...

[Anonymous No.16566642]

>>16566442
Marxism is a subset of Satanism which will always be opposed to the church and Christ. I don't know how you cannot see that.

[Anonymous No.16566643]

>>16566481
looks interesting thanks

[Anonymous No.16566665]

>>16566642
>mammon is better than Satan
Ok boomer,

[Anonymous No.16566683]

>>16566642
Abhorrent post.

[Anonymous No.16566691]

>>16566442

[Anonymous No.16566692]

>>16566665
I don't think you understand. You don't have to love capitalism to accept that communism, especially Marxism, is just another form of Christ hate. I wouldn't exactly advise a Christian to seek employment on Wall Street either but that's not what this thread is about. Have you read Marx's poetry? I doubt you have.
>>16566683
It's not even debatable.

[Anonymous No.16566714]

>>16566452
Dialectical materialism is incompatible with any sort of religion. Religion clearly influences human existence, but you, as a religious believer, necessarily see that religion as something which originates beyond the material. Meanwhile according to DM religion can only be something that arises from the material modes of existence.

[Anonymous No.16566800]

>>16566442
Marxism/Communism is Christianity for the masses. It's the same devious machine using pity to reverse the hierarchy in its favor. Fuck Marxism and fuck Christianity, they are a stain on life.

[Anonymous No.16566841]

>>16566442
How can you believe in a god and heaven when Marxism claims that everything is materially determined rather than from above?

[Anonymous No.16566975]

bump

[Anonymous No.16566995]

>>16566714
Not if DM is applied only to matters of state, a secular state, your definition of DM is almost a religious like one not a scientific one that deals with what is real.

[Anonymous No.16567053]

>>16566571
it doesn't have to be. We evolved to have eyes but that doesn't mean that light is false.

[Anonymous No.16567166]

>>16566452
>The bourgeoisie smile when they see the working class fighting among themselves

Imagine believing there are wealthy people with champagne in their hands in a hill somewhere laughing at the working man , God how horrid it is to destroy individualism and enact such a cartoonist way to look at the world

[Anonymous No.16567190]

>>16566456
>Trotsky was a devout Christian
What? Wasn't he an atheist?

[Anonymous No.16567191]

>>16566456
>Trotsky
was terrorist

[Anonymous No.16568639]

Bump

[Anonymous No.16569682]

>>16566518
What is this pic?

[Anonymous No.16569695]

>>16566481
Be sure to read Hans Jonas afterwards though

[Anonymous No.16569834]

>>16569682
a lecture hall

[Anonymous No.16569853]

>>16569695
why

[Anonymous No.16569859]

>>16566442
it isn't just dismissive of religion, it is contrary to religion

[Anonymous No.16570276]

bump

[Anonymous No.16570282]

>>16566492
Christian socialism is an oxymoron.

[Anonymous No.16570315]

>>16570282
t. Christian capitalist

[Anonymous No.16570521]

You have to be really ignorant to be christian in the current age of the internet.

I can understand before where access to information was difficult, but now?

[Anonymous No.16570533]

>>16566800
do they make fedoras small enough to fit on your tiny skull brainlet?

[Anonymous No.16570541]

>>16570521
where can i find some choice christianity disproving internet information

[Anonymous No.16570557]

>>16570282
Communism is just the conclusion of christian morality and eschatology

[Anonymous No.16570561]

>>16570521

[Anonymous No.16570626]

>>16566442
marxism is peak midwit hylic shit that asserts that there’s no essence and that matter is the determining force (from where does this energy come?) and have much to answer, yet all they can come up with wrt history and the development of the spirit is half-baked. Secondly, they hate the commodifying and alienating nature of capitalism, yet view humans in the same vein we would a robot. Its ok to read to try to make sense of capitalism, but marxism is clearly just inverted christianity whereby the promised world revolution is their eschatological myth for heaven-on-earth.
t. used to be marxist

[Anonymous No.16570645]

>>16566456
>trotsky a devout christian

wtf no he wasn't retard

[Anonymous No.16570668]

>>16566456
>Trotsky was a devout Christian.

[Anonymous No.16570956]

I was told by an old time communist that the biggest communist was jesus.

[Anonymous No.16570971]

>>16566442
Read The Socialist Phenomenon by I. Shafarevich. It will explain why socialism is so hostile towards religion to you.

[Anonymous No.16571333]

>>16570533
>no argument

[Anonymous No.16571471]

>>16566456
>gigakike commie was a devout Christian
ok

[Anonymous No.16571514]

>>16566456
>Famous communist theorist Lev Davidovich Bronstein the devout Christian

[Anonymous No.16571980]

>>16566691
Seconded

[Anonymous No.16572723]

>>16566442
>I don't like how a lot of Marxism is dismissive of Christianity or religion in general.
Except it's not. Works of Frederick Engels 1894
On the History of Early Christianity:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/early-christianity/
Engels compare the class struggle of his era to the early christians.
Also, Marx himself have a rather positive view of christianity (but not the christian State, which he views as christianity detached, separated from the group).

[Anonymous No.16572816]

>>16570626
Your post is not entierely wrong, however, if you dig a little more on Marx, you'll notice he is not a materialistic atheist. Check thesis on feuerbach, or engels text On the History of Early Christianity.
I mean Marx was criticizing Capitalism. Do you expect him to talk about spirituality? Bourgeois economist don't talk about God as well.
In any case, i would prefer a heaven on earth with higher stage communism, than close to hell on earth with current zombie Capitalism.
So reality comes from the spirit. Great. What do i do? Do i meditate after my wage slaving day? Is this what i'm supposed to do? Meditate after enriching some owner of the means of production?

[Anonymous No.16572830]

>>16570956
It's pretty obvious for anyone who isn't alienated. Christ never wanted to be imprisoned in a dark Church, with a statue of him on a cross. Institutionalized religions are spirituality detached from the people, and put in a book, put in a Church.

[Anonymous No.16573618]

>>16566462
>christcucks
cringe, go back to /pol/ redditor

[Anonymous No.16573627]

>>16566442
You agree with marxism's anger towards capitalism. You do not agree with any of the basic tenants. Please read up more on marxism before you fall into this pit.

[Anonymous No.16573635]

>>16570521
>You have to be really ignorant to be christian in the current age of the internet.
Fuck the internet, man. It's all garbage.

[Anonymous No.16573651]

>>16566442
As a Christian you should condemn conflict, and Marxism is based around the idea of class conflict. You can believe that people should be more charitable and less greedy, but you shouldn't label anyone who owns property a thief and use that to justify reparations onto them. Forced charity is not charity anon it's theft whether done by an individual or the government.